Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on March 09, 2016, 10:51:09 pm
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I have no pics and have barely started yet. Actually, all I have is a profile roughed out on the stave ( billet? Where to draw the line? ) and hope. As the titles states its going to be 45.5 inches tip to tip before i put all the curves in and a stiff handle.
Its going to have 5 inches of each limb dedicated to 90 degree hooks. Going for the horn bow look on this one. It is super thin ring and probably sapwood back two tone with a tempered belly. Should have it shooting or broken by the weekend. It has a few knots on the back that i need to figure out.
I have lots of hope to get these super short shorties figured out for best performance they can offer. I believe there is very real potential in them especially for brush and stand applications. Not to mention a bit of speed. I have a build theory on them that i will explain once i build a few more and figure out if i know what i am talking about.
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Good luck!
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Thanks knoll, I think I'm gonna need it. Shortest bow I have attempted. If anyone knows of similar shorties id love to read and study them.
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That's incredibly short for me, if you are not going to sinew back it. Good luck.
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It can be done Kevin. You just have to decide if it's only worth just a few shots.
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Thanks jonW. I of course have to find a way to make it a reliable bow for daily use and not a one shot wonder.
Scp, this will be a self backed sapwood bow.
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sounds like you are pushing it bit,, but you know that,,
stiff handle and sap wood,, are not working in your favor,,
I am guessing you will put in quite a bit of deflex to start with,,
It seems to me the wood will take enough set to diminish the speed you may be expecting,,
but I am just guessing,, have not made such a bow,,,best to you on your project,, :)
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Going shorter than ever and using sap as a back may be tempting the fates too much. Certainly will have a hard time knowing if its the sap or design that made it break if it does. Oh, yes, 3 inches of deflex is planned.
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I should add. The hope is that the deflex I add will prevent the cast robbing set. There will be a loss in string tension at brace but hopefully the lighter mass bow and tips will make up for it. If i can get 170 fps I am gonna be very happy. Anything over 150 is servicable though with 10gpp at hunting weight bow and thats my goal.
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yes 150 , you are good for hunting for sure,,will be interesting if you can get more,, I think getting it to shoot is an accomplishment as well,, the fps will be an added bonus,,
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Well i got some pin knots that are causing me grief in the back i didnt see under the bark that are getting worse as i chase sap rings. I am going down a few more rings and see what that looks like. Hope they clean up. If not then i may need to sinew or boo back this but thats not the bow I want it to be. So I may wind up setting this one aside and starting another with a better back. If it doesnt clean up i will come back to it later.
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you gotta role with the punches,, give her a try,, :)
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Well, I have given up on chasing a sap ring. The pin knots are so soft my scraper cuts right through them every time. So in effort to increase tension strength I am decrowning the back and ignoring the pin knots completely. It will be a sap backed osage board.
And is it me or is there a comment missing from this thread?
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Yeah, im sure I recall a post here about percent of strain on the back and amount of working limb. I was half asleep when ilI read it and now its gone. I believe the point was it couldnt be done that short?
As I remember more the post also contained something to the effect of limb thickness and how thon these limbs would need to be. Why was that post removed?
I am boiling in the hooks now. After that a little limb straightening out and then the deflex will be put in. Then i will tiller, pull, and take measurement of poundage and set as I go until its done or or its broke.
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Putting reflex in the fades has made a splinter lift. Not looking good for this bow. I will try and thin down more to get under the splinter. I will also hope to keep the fade from working now. That sucks.
Lesson to learn here with this style bow. Leave room on the back to thin down so splinter that lift while deflexing the fade can be removed by chasing a ring.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160312_220036_zpsqqdkf1d3.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160312_220036_zpsqqdkf1d3.jpg.html)
Well, here it is braced. Along with its predecessors. The small one on the bottom is the 45.5" I have been posting about.
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Well, as of now its 55#@18. I will progress more tomorrow.... hopefully.
I should add, I didn't measure set but I did notice it is so far all in the fades. They are over stressed right now. I will be taking care of that as I tiller the limbs to bend more outwards. The splinter that popped seems to be holding. From 18 inches on I will be taking poundahe and set measurments. Hopefully set wont be bad. After I reach full draw the bow will get a belly warming.
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When you deflex something as sharply as that the area acts like a 'stress riser'. A stress concentration (often called stress raisers or stress risers) is a location in an object where stress is concentrated. An object is strongest when force is evenly distributed over its area, so a reduction in area, e.g., caused by a crack, results in a localized increase in stress.
The deflex concentrates the bending stress there. Better to make your deflex on this design by splicing the handle into the required deflex that will leave your limbs to be reflexed and do the bending without the harsh forced concentration of bending right out of the fades. If it's taking set out of the fades already - it's toast! No set at the fades is going to be key.
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You have a strong point Mike. But I will say I may not need to go do your very sound advice yet. I was dumb and stressed the bow only a few hours after steaming in the fades. They were not dry yet. I was hoping they were thick enough not to need to worry. Wrong. I am going to temper them very strong to stiffen them up.
For the reason you state, one key to this design is stiff and thick fades. How thick is needed I don't know, I'm learning and figuring this out still.
I just measured and any set it had is now gone after drying out some more.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20160313_122150_zps3p4zzq4y.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20160313_122150_zps3p4zzq4y.jpg.html)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/20160313_122245-1_zpsmbzfpht1.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/20160313_122245-1_zpsmbzfpht1.jpg.html)
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Well folks here it is. 55#@26 45" ntn. Its not fast. But it is still a very capable bow. I don't have the string tension I want but I am not sure if that can be increased without also increasing draw weight, which I don't want to do. I am going to start by reflecting the mid limb to bring tension up.
Being not one to stick his head in the sand and ignore the obvious I am going to say the likelihood is I will need to bump up draw weight with string tension and to shoot an arrow under 10gpp but still hunting weight for speed and penetration with a hunting arrow.
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Set is 1 inch even throughout the limb after just unbraced .Reflecting the limbs and heat treat should help performance. We shall see.
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Nice effort Kevin. Tiller looks good. I would say to let it be but I know you and that aint gonna happen.
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Yeah, im sure I recall a post here about percent of strain on the back and amount of working limb. I was half asleep when ilI read it and now its gone. I believe the point was it couldnt be done that short?
As I remember more the post also contained something to the effect of limb thickness and how thon these limbs would need to be. Why was that post removed?
Sleek, it wasn't removed, I just posted it in the wrong thread, the one on sharp hooks, p2.
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:laugh: she is a cutie
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I think you are kind of going for the Scythian look in which case you need to think of the reflexed and deflexed portions as essentially non-working.
Nothing wrong with doing that as long as you realize that they are out of commission.
It's just a variation of a single deflexed area at the center being split in two and moved outward.
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You pretty much nailed it Patm. I just need to find the limit of short and still powerful enough to be a viable weapon.
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MAn that bow looks wild! Enjoy it. :)
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Thanks for the compliments guys.
Right now i am reflexing the limbs for string tension.
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Right now i am reflexing the limbs for string tension.
Really? Your bow is almost incredible as it is already. I must have grossly underestimated the capacity of Osage Orange, because I mostly work with white oak and hickory. You are basically making a "hornbow" out of a selfbow. Simply wonderful. Don't break it, please.
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Scp, glad you like it so much. But this bow is intended to learn from and on. This is a design I have been flirting with for a while and intend on perfecting it. Its not just for a short bow with long draw, irs performance and all all the quirks of building to ensure a good performance and look. I plan on building a few of these.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_174248_zpstucx4yni.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_174248_zpstucx4yni.jpg.html)
Unstrung profile. Put in 2 inches of reflex.shouldnt change the tiller except to bring around the tips a bit at draw.
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That's incredable. And I worry about blowing up my 66 inchers! Well done
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Dang Sleek that FD pic of that 45.5 incher looks like its sinew backed. Nice work!
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No horn :o
I'm impressed, lots of draw length and good weight, all in one piece, you did good Sleek
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No sinew. Just sapwood backed and completely drowned. Flat as a board. Its in one piece right now. Lets see if it stays that way after a good belly warming and reflex mid limb.
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Yeah man, that baby looks coool. Good on you for takin the challenge. I hope u find what ur lookin for, and i like what ya got there.
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This is very impressive. Another one of the billets I traded you right?
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No josh, yours are longer than this. This is a proof of concept before I make another out of one of those billets. Next one after this will be pulled to 28 inches.
You going to Mojam?
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The reflex added string tension as hoped. But it also took set. So I believe the two canceled out. But it did take it up 5 pounds. Now its a 60# bow.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_185840_zpsvsqcafls.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_185840_zpsvsqcafls.jpg.html)
New full draw. Tiller changed a bit. I think I should flip the bow upside down. Tiller may look more even.
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2 inches of set. This wood is maxed out. But I can now take the profile it has and play with its proportions going longer and narrower with its side profile and account for set before it ever even happens. That will give me the parameters I need to make this bow style efficient and affective as a weapon. It gave me exactly what I have been asking of it :)
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You going to Mojam?
I hope so, but I'm not sure yet.
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sleek, Have you seen these bows yet?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28969.15.html
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Fast or not, that is a SICK bend.
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sleek, Have you seen these bows yet?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28969.15.html
I'm gonna have to sit down and recoup after seeing these. seems they all use sinew though, but he relies on deflex like I do. But damn his workmanship. Wow.
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Yeah there is sinew but you can definitely still make it work since you're using a bit more length overall and potential working limb by making the deflexed and recurved portions shorter.
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Well I don't think any shorter will do any good without sinew. I'm struggling to keep any string tension as it is.
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I think if you really steam the middle section and get a sharper central reflex and deflex the fades even more you'll have more potential to heat treat your limbs backwards to gain string tension.
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I was hoping for more handle reflex but it didnt work out. Poor technique. That is the game plan though.
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Probably need to leave the whole stave chunky and narrow and thin just the central piece so that you can get the bend concentrated in those spots.
It's always tempting to get the whole bow roughed out more but then the limbs are too floppy to be used to bend the middle.
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You speak truth.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_223202_zps5h09gjln.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_223202_zps5h09gjln.jpg.html)
Got the handle fitted. I love cedar as a handle material. Beautiful and soft easy to shape.
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_223210_zps8mwkp6lz.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_223210_zps8mwkp6lz.jpg.html)
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(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/rocketernally/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_223228_zpsezcrzqap.jpg) (http://s1092.photobucket.com/user/rocketernally/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-03/20160313_223228_zpsezcrzqap.jpg.html)
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Wow Kevin, you've proved me wrong. I said I didn't think you could do it and you did. You even went and showed off and made it sapwood backed! >:D
Patrick
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Wow, I'm impressed too. Good you left the recurves a bit shorter and less abrupt though.
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Thanks everyone. I'm calling this bow done. Next one I will use all I have learned from this one and hope to get a great performer. Hope to have chrono numbers after this weekend.
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great work,, really nice, what was the chrono results,,?? :)
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I promise I will post them soon as I have them. I will be shooting it at Ojam through the chrono this weekend. The bowdoes burry the arrow head clean into a 2x4 though. Im sure its a good hunter.
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Nice job on that bow Sleek. You sure pushed the limits on that bow
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Thanks redhand. I really appreciate it.
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Wow Kevin, you've proved me wrong. I said I didn't think you could do it and you did. You even went and showed off and made it sapwood backed! >:D
Patrick
I know you thought I could do it. And I wasnt showing off with the sapwood. I needed it to maximize bow width. It wasa pizza slice billet.
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Inches. Weight
10. 5
11. 9
12. 11
13. 14
14. 17
15. 19
16. 22
17. 25
18. 28
19. 30
20. 35
21. 40
22. 44
23. 50
24. 53
25. 60
26. 65.
I guess it lost some moisture and picked up 5 pounds after drying out all the steam and boiling I did to it.
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Sleek what that is showing is an extremely low amount of stored energy for a 65# bow. I will likely shoot not much better than a 35# bow if that is indeed accurate.
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Wow. That sucks. Probably too much deflex. That will be remedied on the next one.
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I just measured the other one i built like this. Identical weigjt and draw length. Also identical fd chart, even though it has 4 inches longer limbs.
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I meant 45# bow
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That actually does make me feel better then! Whew! So it is possible to make a viable weapon with this badger? So long as i shoot 450 grain arrows?
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And i want to add to the question. Because i have a bow that has less physical mass than a longer bow, and its recurves prevent stacking, does that make these bows benefit from essentially zero mass tips of a longer bow and would allow for more efficient cast PER its amount of stores energy? For example, it stores the weight of a 45 pound bow but shoots like a 50?
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Sleek, if it is shooting the same as a 45# bow,, lets say it will shoot a 500 grain arrow 150fps,, you have enough for a really nice hunting bow, it will kill deer or hog,, it may be shooting more than that,, maybe Badger means it will cast a 450 grain arrow 160 fps,, its enough for hunting for sure,, but you are having to pull alot of extra weight to get that,,the chronograph will tell you for sure,, I like to get 150fps with a 500 grain arrow to hunt with,, if my hunting bow will shoot harder than that, thats great too,, :) and I am sure at close range ,, less fps can be effective,,
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Sleek, shorter bows do tend to be more efficient, with a 26" instead of 28 that most are usually measured at you would still have a very serviceable bow. You really have to shoot a bow and test it to figure out what is is getting, too many variables.
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Well then, these bows ar on track to do everything I want them to do. Thanks guus for all your help!
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Just got back from shooting the ever loving crap out of these bows. Performance was phenomenal. Absolutely above what I had hoped for. Both this bow and its 49 inch big brother outshot any bow I compared them to in regards to penetration and apparent speed.it was too cloudy and windy to chrono them.
The 45" bow lifted a splinter while it was being tested to maximum draw. I removed it and am going to sinew it, then make another 45.5" self bow so I can still have one.
We did a 100 yard clout shoot into 30 mph head winds. Most folk had to really arc them to get any distance and still fell very short. Mine had zero trouble getting there. Actually I found myself very capable of over shooting the target with half the arc everyone else was using. I had lts of compliments on how well these bows shot and with their performance. I will be making many many more of them and trying to eek all I can out of them.
In summary, I believe I have very capable weapons for hunting and would have no trouble with pass through shots on deer inside 20 yards. I will post more when I have chrono numbers.
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I personally got to finally see and shoot both of sleeks bows at OJAM. I have to say I was skeptical at first but man was I proven wrong! These things are scary short but are dead in the hand, very fast and really accurate as well. The only real complaint I heard about them on the 3d course was "damn your arrows are hard to pull out of the targets". It sometimes took two people to pull the arrows. Well done buddy, the only question I have is, can you make me one that pulls 55@27?
Patrick
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After watching how hard and fast these bows shoot you don't need no chronometer to know that they will do the job on a deer.
Great job Kevin. (But your tiny strings still scare me..)
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I personally got to finally see and shoot both of sleeks bows at OJAM. I have to say I was skeptical at first but man was I proven wrong! These things are scary short but are dead in the hand, very fast and really accurate as well. The only real complaint I heard about them on the 3d course was "damn your arrows are hard to pull out of the targets". It sometimes took two people to pull the arrows. Well done buddy, the only question I have is, can you make me one that pulls 55@27?
Patrick
Indeed, poor knoll was quite exhausted of pulling my arrows. We will see if a bow can be made to pull 27". How short do you want it?
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After watching how hard and fast these bows shoot you don't need no chronometer to know that they will do the job on a deer.
Great job Kevin. (But your tiny strings still scare me..)
Thanks buddy, now if I could just learn to shoot like you do.... maybe I would have a winning combo of skill and equipment. Perhaps one day you will get the chance to shoot one of my bows and not let the skinny strings scare ya.
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I personally got to finally see and shoot both of sleeks bows at OJAM. I have to say I was skeptical at first but man was I proven wrong! These things are scary shh ort but are dead in the hand, very fast and really accurate as well. The only real complaint I heard about them on the 3d course was "damn your arrows are hard to pull out of the targets". It sometimes took two people to pull the arrows. Well done buddy, the only question I have is, can you make me one that pulls 55@27?
Patrick
Indeed, poor knoll was quite exhausted of pulling my arrows. We will see if a bow can be made to pull 27". How short do you want it?
As short as you can make it bud. But no worries on when you get it done.
Patrick
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Short as I can make it.... a challenge? I will see what I can do.
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Yup!
Patrick
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Really enjoyed catching up with this thread; do you think Yew would work for this type of bow?
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I wish I could say. I dont know enough about yew to form an opinion.