Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on November 01, 2015, 04:49:37 pm
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...has been moved to the Admin and Mods Discussion area. When I get more than a few requests to shut it down it's time to pull it for the Admin and Mods review and discussion.
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Thanks for sweeping up the mess.
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Thanks for sweeping up the mess.
Agreed thanks for moving it, it was starting to get rather aggressive.
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Good call
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Now I'm curious and wanna read it ;D wish I did when it was on
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Now I'm curious and wanna read it ;D wish I did when it was on
Manny...ill sum it up for you..it was 6 pages of this
"Theres no way you can piss that far"
"Yes i can"
"No you cant"
"Yes i can"
"No you cant"
Etc....etc....
N dats about it :laugh:
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I hope we can go on more serious.
As I stated yesterday I really found hornbows overestimated. Why should hornbowery be an art and selfbowery nothing but a primitive craft? This is almost like an affront for all those great selfbowyers whose bows we can admire here in the forum. I guess serious tillering a selfbow is at least as delicous as tillering a hornbow.
If one takes into account availability of the raw materials, the making of and usability of a hornbow, you end up with a very ineffective kind of bow.
Nevertheless it is a very delicious and challenging job to do. Every type of bow made of natural materials is a kind of marvel to me.
I guess hornbowery is almost something like a historical error.
Hornbows came up in great quantities when former nomads(Scythians, Mongolians, Osmanians...) tried to built empires. For to boost their military power they decided to standardize their military strategies and so their weapons. The multitude of the nomadic life was gone.
This was the first historical trial to standardize the bow and error- system, the second trial was much more successful( glass, wheel.....). Finally the Scythians, Mongolians, Osmanians,...................had been defeated heavily. It is very interesting and sad to see nomads fail, when they tried to built empires. Hornbows had been almost gone forever.
To me a selfbow and its making of is a kind of nomadic technique, nomadic craft which offers and charged a living variety of possibilities. You never know exactly how you' ll end up with a stave. That's what I will never miss.
Hornbowery is to much bureaucratic.
So to me the horn- vs. selfbowery- thing is much more a question of lifestyle but performance: bureaucrat vs. nomad, fences vs. open range, standstill vs. moving, uniformity vs. multitude....................
Michael
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Michael, how far do you actually think they could shoot?
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I guess you mean hornbows?
I' ve given it up to wait for a nowadays bowyer to shoot these 600- 900 yards history is telling us. Call it propaganda for the powers or whatever, there is no actual evidence hornbows could shoot that far.
Monus and Koppedrayer have shot 340- 430yards with their Osmanian style hornbows, Dan Perry shot 340yards with his primitive selfbow 50lbs. at the Salt Flats. Look here: http://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2014%20USAA%20Flight%20Records.pdf.
That's the numbers I would expect and call down to earth.
Michael
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That's the numbers I would expect and call down to earth.
Michael
Agreed, those are the numbers that are down to Earth.... Using arrows that couldn't kill a cheesestick much less a man.
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I guess you mean hornbows?
I' ve given it up to wait for a nowadays bowyer to shoot these 600- 900 yards history is telling us. Call it propaganda for the powers or whatever, there is no actual evidence hornbows could shoot that far.
Monus and Koppedrayer have shot 340- 430yards with their Osmanian style hornbows, Dan Perry shot 340yards with his primitive selfbow 50lbs. at the Salt Flats. Look here: http://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2014%20USAA%20Flight%20Records.pdf.
That's the numbers I would expect and call down to earth.
Michael
Yes. But you know that straight up wooden bows have shot 500-800 yards in the past and nobody has come close to those recently.
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Yes I know. Steve Gardner and Alan Case came up every now and then with those numbers and we all get crazy about them. I' ll give them a try!? I guess it is possible with wooden bows, but.....................how?
Hornbows seem to be to limited by their heavy weight.
I agree flight- arrows are for flight.
Michael
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The rules for flight shooting have changed over the years. If they still had the same rules for primitive flight that they used 50 years ago you would see records being broken. The arrow speeds that Adam was getting with his horn bows could easily launch an arrow well over 500 yards if they loosened the rules. I remember Thomas Duvenay posting on the old DC board a distance shot he took with his 50# Korean Horn bow and a siper of over 500 yards
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Adam just needs a shooter, he's already reached over 560. Why can't he find a shooter?
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I'm sorry I never got to see the original post. Ryan filled me in on things said about me. I honestly don't think I would have been offended. before I made my first sheep horn bow I read previous authors describing how their 3' sheephorn bows shot plains style arrows 250 yards. After 20 some attempts I realize this is just a myth. The last one I made was 30" tip to tip with a 70# draw at 18". I could not get the speed much over 140fps and the arrow was well below 10 gpp. I have never claimed these bows can do more than they can. I consider what I'm doing as a few year study on all the styles of the few remaining sheephorn bows left in museums. A sheephorn bow needs to start with a lot of reflex and be overdrawn to match a regular wood bow because of it's weight and materials. That is part of the appeal of these bows. You make a bighorn bow to have a bighorn bow, not because you expect it to outshoot your compound.
There are talented bowyers on this site as well as writers who have been at this longer than me and I've learned a lot from. I know all about composite vs simple wood bows, so obviously there is another reason I spend 60 hours making a bow that some people will never understand, but the people who used these 2000 years ago to today do.
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Only a fool would say bad things about you Chuck, a fool.
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Only a fool would say bad things about you Chuck, a fool.
X2
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Well, we shouldn't have to worry about him any more unless he sneaks in the back door. ;)
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PatB is the champ!!! Three cheers for Pat! Josh
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actually Marc did the dirty deed...but I'll take credit. ;)
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Hip Hip Hooray!!!
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Now what will we do for fun. ???
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Now what will we do for fun. ???
Retreat to our shops and make some bows ;D
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Ya back to business as usual.
;)
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well you could put the posts back up for they guys that missed the fun >:D
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well you could put the posts back up for they guys that missed the fun >:D
Yeah ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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any chance I can start some kind a new ruckus? >:D
sure do hate I missed the other one
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If you'd come visit us more, James, you wouldn't feel so left out. ;D Hope all is well with you and 'um
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I was right in the middle of reading the last one when it was pulled. I don't think you missed a whole lot. Looks like he tried to pick it up again in this thread. I assume he was invited to take his argument elsewhere? I appreciate the moderator's efforts to keep this site classy.
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Since Pat started this thread (again), I can pollute it guilt free ;)
A few things came to mind.
One - I now have a crap load of custom T-shirts and cooly cups to unload, cheap.
"B" - I was talking to Josh during this second debacle (missed the first). I likened PA to a small town bar. Strangers don't just prance in with mouth in gear. That never ends good. Most of us have seen that a few times, I'm sure. Jerks are welcome here, but you have to walk in nice and then be yourself after a few rounds are bought.
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Why, we've even been known to "take it outside" a time or two.
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That's a great analogy pearl, I'll take a shirt and some coolies at a drastic firesale price
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Hopefully he will learn to be a bit less full of himself when he is allowed back in 30 days
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Hopefully
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Now, what exactly happened in the latest thread?
I was all ready to make some horn and bone wedges and try it out for myself!
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Now, what exactly happened in the latest thread?
I was all ready to make some horn and bone wedges and try it out for myself!
Hard to say what his point was. He was going to show how to build a totally primitive bow despite dismissing every known feasible way to do that as impossible.
He did find a promising rock though.
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Well, there goes my plans for Wednesday morning!
Shame that a member had to be suspended, maybe he'll learn to be more accepting of others opinions and experiences in the future.
Cheers everyone! :)
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I missed out on all the fun. Sounds like this guy might just be woodbandits dad or something. Or maybe one of the squirrely kids.
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Back to the original topic confirmed by independent testing. How do horn bows perform? Lets say we through out the top 5% best performers of glass bows, wood bows and horn bows. Horn bows perform very close to the best fiberglass bows, composite wood bows perform about 5% below the horn bows and self bows perform about 5% below the composite wood bows. There are always exceptions but this is about the average. Flight shooting records are no indication of performance of a bow. Too many factors involved.
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Based on what im reading,it sounds reminiscent of a few past threads.Im actually glad i missed it.
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Flight shooting records are no indication of performance of a bow.
Come on, Steve....... ???
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Pat, if you were to flight shoot heavier arrows like broadheads or at least 7 grains per pound then it would be a good indicator of performance. With the very light arrows I consistently score better with detuned bows, so far the very fast bows I have not gotten much out of due to bad flight issues. Flight shooting is a lot more than making fast bows, all aspects have to be met for good shots to happen.
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That doesn't mean it's not the most important thing.
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Pat, I agree the fastest bows have the greatest potential and I will always stick with the faster bows in the spirit of flight shooting. I know I need to get my act together in other areas as well. I have mentioned this before but last year I had a real eye opener durring practice. I brought a bow along that I was building to give to someone as a hunting bow, just a straight osage long bow with a hint of reflex about 65" long or so. The handle was badly out of alignment and I had planned on fooling with it at the flight shoot. Anyway I shot an arrow further with it than any arrow I have ever shot because the arrow came out so clean with the bad alignment, I am guessing it allowed it to clear the handle better. The simple comp record I have was shot with an old bow that was fast when it was first built but over the years had broken down badly.
I have another bow I built specifialy for flight and is very fast with the light arrows. I am barely getting over 300 yards with it. I plan to take it back again next year and mix in some heavier arrow and see how it does.
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very interesting, I always felt the bows aligned to the arrow side were positive, but had no real evidence,, just seemed easier to tune,,, I always learn something and then get confused about with the new info,,infinitely fascinating ,,,, :)
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I start to prepare to next year flight tournament and last time I chrono my turkish flightbow, 70 lb at 28" , I used arrow only 26" - 225 grain , chrono show around 260 fps - 26 inch 62 lb. And this bow it is realy nothing extreme , is well overbuild. I suppose that very hard tuned bow can shoot arround 300 fps in 70 lb class. hornbows is realy something else then selfbows or wooden laminate, I made work time calculation - I have some experience in hornbows but I need 15 X more time to make hornbow compare to compilcate selfbow. And not always hornbows works :)
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I still don't understand why none of the horn bow guys don't just refine one of their bows. We endlessly hear "Well the bow wasn't optimised for flight and the shooter wasn't experienced with a sipur and the bow got too heavy overnight blah blah blah."
I understand if you are still in the developmental stages on your first few bows but this line has been thrown out for the last 10 years or so by experts on these bows.
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When hornbow is ready is very hard upgrade it. Problem is in hornbow makers mind - hornbow need a lot of work and each bowyer fear to fail - when you make bow overbuild is much more chance to work in future. There is only one bowyer in this moment who made perfect hornbows, just like in old times - Adam Karpowicz. Traditional flight is very new sport in Europe and we are just not good enough :) But I dont cry when my flight is not very good, I still work on it and be better in future Im sure :)
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Patm, I don't think it is excuses you are hearing. To get clean flight from light arrows requires a lot of practice and skill that really has not been developed yet amoung the current crop of flight shooters. Most of us only launch a few arrows per year. If you had someone out there launching a few thousand arrows per year he would certainly report back with some great shots. The bows have the speed to do it, everything just has to be right.
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I start to prepare to next year flight tournament and last time I chrono my turkish flightbow, 70 lb at 28" , I used arrow only 26" - 225 grain , chrono show around 260 fps - 26 inch 62 lb. And this bow it is realy nothing extreme , is well overbuild. I suppose that very hard tuned bow can shoot arround 300 fps in 70 lb class. hornbows is realy something else then selfbows or wooden laminate, I made work time calculation - I have some experience in hornbows but I need 15 X more time to make hornbow compare to compilcate selfbow. And not always hornbows works :)
At 260 fps with a very clean shot you might see 500 yards, the slightest deviations in flight comming out of the bow could easily leave you short of 300 yards.
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When hornbow is ready is very hard upgrade it. Problem is in hornbow makers mind - hornbow need a lot of work and each bowyer fear to fail - when you make bow overbuild is much more chance to work in future. There is only one bowyer in this moment who made perfect hornbows, just like in old times - Adam Karpowicz. Traditional flight is very new sport in Europe and we are just not good enough :) But I dont cry when my flight is not very good, I still work on it and be better in future Im sure :)
None of Adam's flight specific bows seem to show up there though or some problem pops up that we're not told about in any detail.
Or if a flight bow isn't going to make it there then send a "warbow" and take down a broadhead record. That should be doable.
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I think Lukasz is right on stating that after so much time spent in the construction and materials of a hornbow, most of us are not willing to test our bows to the point of destruction.
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Badger, in next tournament I try to go arround 450 yards. I think it is possible go to 500 but I dont shoot thumbring and dont use siper. Now I make new turkish and I take risk go to extreme - I plane draw 60 - 70 lb and mass of bow arround 260 gram , my actual bow mass - 365 gram. New bow is allready glued, now I must wait to dry enough. If this bow not beat some records I will be suprised :)
Blackhawk - made selfbows 10 years before I start make hornbows and I know that make realy good selfbow is so hard like make good hornbow. Difference is in numbers of effort - I think I start make good selfbows after 100 bows , For this time after 8 years hornbowyery I made maybe 30 bows , maybe Im not very tallented but I feel that I have some way to go. Thats why we have a lot of good selfbow makers and so few good hornbowyer - time is the factor .
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Good luck, Lukasz, in contrary to most of the hornbowyers you are a man of word and deed: "If this bow not beat some records I will be suprised". 260gram vs. 365gram is a lot!
I don't think a wooden flightbow is less work than a hornbow, I would state a wooden flightbow is much more delicious in tillering than a hornbow. Drying time could not be counted in.
Michael
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Steve has it right.
Flight world records shot in the U.S. in the 1930's reached just shy of 490 yards, with wood bows shot without overdraws, releases or synthetics anywhere in the setup. Linen strings, full-length douglas fir shafts etc. Recent primitive flight shooters and bowyers have advanced various explanations for the reason they can't get there, ranging from "they made bows that didn't last" or "they changed the rules", but these don't hold water.
Top flight shooters of the pre-WWII era built flight arrows by the hundreds and shot and tuned them constantly. Shooting technique was also worked on, incessantly. Having built and tested 100 top-notch flight arrows, there always was the one arrow that shot farther than any other. This was the arrow to go for a record with. Plenty of evidence with our present efforts on how changing just the arrow for a better one can instantly give 50 yards or more of range, and make an old workhorse bow shoot 300 yards.
One factor in favor of the old times was that wooden bows and arrows were all there was, then. Every champion archer and crafty wannabe used wood. Nowadays wood-based archery is a quaint niche compared to the fiberglass and compound dominant archery culture and the talent pool is similarly divided.
Tuukka
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Didn't they even go beyond that? Not even counting the half mile footbow shots.
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Tukka, a good examle of this is Allen Cases daughter, she shot a 35# self bow this year and reached 328 yards. She probably was shooting it at around 32#. She has good form and shot a good arrow. Her other arrows were about 40 yards behind the winning arrow, this is what I was talking about. 50# bows have more than enough speed to hit the 400 plus mark.
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Starting by the late '30's, overdraws and releases, and the first bits of plastic, found their way into flight gear. By 1945, 541 yards was shot with a hand-held wood bow and around 800 yards with a wooden footbow. The present-day primitive self rules would rule these out, so I left them out. Personally, I find both foot-bows and flight releases a little too gimmicky to pay too much attention to. But reaching close to 500 with finger-drawn wood is still way out there, from our perspective.
Tuukka
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From what I understand they were also using forgewood with some of those record breaking shots, much stiffer and denser arrows.
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Forgewood was developed by Sweetland not until 1947, so it post-dates the use of wood-only bows in flight competition.
Tuukka