Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Horn Bows => Topic started by: wizardgoat on September 01, 2015, 02:24:45 am
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Alright, we all have our own "bowyers bucket list", and a sheep horn bow has been near the top of mine for a while.
Instead of trading 20 horses for one of these little buffalo bangers, I thought what better time than now to attempt one.
A bow made of no wood, only horn and sinew.
There isnt a whole lot of info out there on making these bows, but there is a few sources I have on hand. Native American Bows has some great info, as well as American
Indian archery and the Encyclopedias of Bows Arrows and Quivers has some cool stuff as well.
I've never done a build along, so bare with me! Whether I fail or succeed, I'm hoping we can all at least learn something.
I acquired the horn and sinew from Chuck Loeffler thru trade, and lucky for me, he had already reduced the horn to strips to avoid border customs issues.
He even sent me the off cuts, so I'll have nice tip overlay material for a looooooong time.
Chucks website is also a good read on horn bows.
Here are the horn strips and one of the off cuts.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5082_zpsjquyin6r.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5082_zpsjquyin6r.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5083_zpsdpgdua3q.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5083_zpsdpgdua3q.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5138_zpsgldxs7hx.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5138_zpsgldxs7hx.jpg.html)
Chuck had already done one heat session to get some curl out, but they needed another one to get them flat enough to work easily.
I profiled the bow to around 1 1/4 till mid limb and a slight taper to the tips, for now anyways.
I began to reduce the thickness of the horn strips. Much like wood bows I aimed to have a slight thickness taper toward the tips.
I had a few "soft?" spots in the horn, so I needed to get under neath them. Not totally sure on the desired thickness or amount of stress to put on the horn at this point, so I went with what felt right.
I sort of pre tillered the strips over my knee, so I knew I was on the right track. I'm not concerned with draw weight on this bow, If it happens to shoot an arrow I'd be more than happy.
I whipped up a quick caul to begin shaping the horns. I went with 1" of backset, not sure if its too much, or not enough.
I tapered each strip for 3" for a lap splice. Theres alot of ways to do horn bow handles, but the lap splice seems the easiest to me.
I boiled the horn for about 5 minutes and quickly clamped them down, heres what they looked like.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5077_zpsi2wemcod.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5077_zpsi2wemcod.jpg.html)
After the horn cooled, it was time to glue the handle. I bought some high quality hide glue online a while back, so I decided to use it.
I think I got a pretty good fit, I hope anyways.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5129_zpsxlf9ys2v.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5129_zpsxlf9ys2v.jpg.html)
I made a piece of horn to fit on the back of the handle. I tried to make a belly one but gave up after I couldnt get it to fit right. I hope that doesnt't come back to haunt me. Here is what the handle looks like cleaned up a bit.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5046_zpshr24dzd6.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5046_zpshr24dzd6.jpg.html)
Some twist issues to deal with.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5151_zpsmvryxpcs.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5151_zpsmvryxpcs.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5152_zps1npyobum.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5152_zps1npyobum.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5139_zpsyuerskvq.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5139_zpsyuerskvq.jpg.html)
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Very cool Goat! I'll be watching this very closely. Definitely on my bucket list! Thanks for making this post. Patrick
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Cool!!
I've never made one of these but I have made a few 'normal' hornbows. With a structral splice like that it's obvious that it must stay together for the bow to work, so with that in mind I am wondering how you prepared the horn for gluing? When it comes to gluing horn to a wooden core you have to use many sizing coats of very thin glue to make sure you get a good bond with the horn. Horn being so dense it's hard for the glue to properly wet the surface(unlike wood), if you gently heat it and apply many coats of thin glue you can get around this problem and get a good bond as the collagen molecules get built up slowly.
Anyways best of luck with this one, it will be super cool ;)
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Mike- yes, from what I've read and heard, handle failures are the most common way for these to go.
I made sure the pieces were as flat as I could get them and roughed them up with heavy grit
sand paper. I did size them with thin warm glue,, and they seemed to soak up a couple coats pretty good. I used a thicker glue for the actual glue up. I didn't hear the horn, but will on the next one. I bet I'll be saying that a lot haha, so thanks for the input.
Not gonna lie, I'll be relying big time on a HEAVY wrapping up sinew at the handle, and will be
Do my best to avoid any big bending in the handle. Even if it means I lose some draw length.
Forgot to mention, the horn core is 31" long.
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Very cool wizard
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How thick do you think you've got those strips? Did you reduce on the belly side, also?
Good post.
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Looking good. These bows amaze me.
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Cheers guys, I'll post more tonight.
Parnell- I reduced the back first, too make sure I had a nice even platform for the sinew backing.
When the back seemed good, I started reducing the belly, very slowly with a fine rasp.
They were about 1/4" tapering to about 3/16"
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I started this some time ago. Not easy to cut out and straighten those Dall ram horns. I'm worried that I've violated the horn on one of my strips.
Anyhow, lots of projects to do. Looking forward to watching your progress. Best of luck...
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Pretty cool. That will be a sweet bow when it's all said and done. You will be amazed with these bows.
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How many layers of sinew are you thinking about putting on this bow.
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Redhand - A layer is a little different from person to person, Im thinking around 2.5-3 oz for this bow, it'll be about 1/3 to 1/2 sinew in thickness.
Alright, I got a little more work into this thing. I began to tiller the horn by bending it over my knee. I left a couple C clamps
on it because I didnt fully trust my handle without the sinew wrappings yet..
When I got it looking pretty good I put a string on it, and this is what first brace looked like,
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5031_zps0rmkjgte.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5031_zps0rmkjgte.jpg.html)
I was pretty pleased with it, but decided to keep removing horn to get a more even bend. My string alingment was a little off too.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5032_zpsv9ksuqyh.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5032_zpsv9ksuqyh.jpg.html)
I tugged on it a bit, and it became pretty obvious I needed to get a little more bend happening mid limb and out. To my eyes anyways.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5036_zps4elcweh7.png) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5036_zps4elcweh7.png.html)
Using a scraper I kept removing horn. After a few checks, I braced it up a little higher and it looked like this.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5048_zps8uoch62l.png) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5048_zps8uoch62l.png.html)
I also decided it was maybe a good time to try and get some twist out. I steamed it over the mouth of a kettle for a few minutes, torqued it by hand and put it under running cool water.
It really seemed to help, if it stays we'll see.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5042_zpswpgkqnwo.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5042_zpswpgkqnwo.jpg.html)
I began to prepare my sinew a few weeks ahead of time. I don't really enjoy the process, but I have become alot quicker at it. I'll be using deer leg sinew, and probably one final layer of back strap.
Theres plenty of sinew how to's online, so I wont waste much time on it. Here's a couple pics of where she's at.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5051_zpskbeuhv2p.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5051_zpskbeuhv2p.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5049_zpsjhxfy3sy.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5049_zpsjhxfy3sy.jpg.html)
2 layers down and after a few nights it had already gained some nice reflex.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5060_zpsdzcuizpe.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5060_zpsdzcuizpe.jpg.html)
I waited a week and laid down another couple layers, she curled up a bit more.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5164_zpso4wbraki.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5164_zpso4wbraki.jpg.html)
I'll wait another week or so and add a final layer and do some handle and nock wrapping.
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Nice looking sinew work....Ryan :) ;)
DBar
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Very nice work Ryan! The bow sure is coming along nicely! The way you're doing this build along makes it look, not so intimidating to do one myself. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this for us.
Now I have to find me through right horn to do one for myself! Patrick
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Thanks Dbar!
Patrick- If your lucky to find a set they will cost you 400-500, and there's no guarantees it'll be good sound horn. I'd also say it's a good idea to make a couple short bows, maybe a couple sinew backed reflexed shorties as well. start surfin your local listings and maybe there's someone selling a nice set, that's how I got one of mine.
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Thanks bud, I will do that for sure. Of course, one of my dream hunts is for a big horn ram of some kind. I know I would have to get into a lot better physical shape but wouldn't it be awesome to make a bow from a ram and then maybe kill one with that same bow. Hey a guy can dream can't he? Thanks again, Patrick
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I agree! We have a few species of sheep in BC. A friend has hunted a few, and he laughed in my face when I offered him cash for a set of horns. Theyre amazing animals, watching them scale mountain sides is insane.
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They are amazing that is for sure! I've seen 2 in my life in person. I stopped in the road once and could have poked him with a stick as he walked in front of the truck. All I thought when I pointed my finger at it and said "bang" was one day and buddy one day! Patrick
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Lookin' good, I hope it turns out for you. Did you do anything with kicking the string nocks forward to help them stay on at full draw?
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That is going to be a sweet horn bow. Good job Wizard. If i read your post right you are at 5 layers of sinew, you should be well at the 50 pound draw weight. I just finished up a elk horn bow I had two layers of leg tenon sinew and a final layer of back sinew for 3 layers total and I'm right at 44 pounds. Your horn bow is turning out very nice.
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Thanks guys, Parnell, I'll be doing sinew wrappings on the nocks. The tips have a slight recurve to them naturally, and I've heard more can return. All my sinew layers ending at the tips have slightly raised the area too.
Red hand, I don't want to jinx myself yet by calling it a bow! Since the last photo I've done one final layer. It's about 40% sinew in thickness. Tonight I'll fill in a couple little gaps,,do my first handle wrapping layer, and my tips as well.
It's gained a couple more inches of reflex.
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You could always add a small sinew ball at the end of your tips if you feel like your string is going to slip off when your drawing your bow back. I've done that before and its worked great for me.
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Redhand, please share some pics of your horn bows! I'd love to see how you did your tips
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I put a sinew ball for the nock and a small sinew ball so the string doesn't slip.
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Those look awesome Redhand, but now your going to have to share more photos!
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Here are a few pics of the first elk horn bow I did this bow has the sinew ball for nocks.
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This elk horn bow I just finished it has sinew hook nocks.
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A few more pics, I accidentally uploaded the trade arrow pic. This bow is 40 inches long nock to nock 44# @ 20 inches.
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Redhand, those are some cool looking bows! thanks for posting.
I've recently done some more work, I'll post some update pics after the weekend.
It's gaining some scary reflex
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Fun build, Ryan. I'm watching!
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I bet its gaining reflex you will be amazed at the reflex these bighorn sheep bows will take.
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Hi Goat this is a fascinating follow along. I'm really looking forward to seeing how your horn bow turns out! :)
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Looking forward to seeing this completed!
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Cheers guys, stoked to see there's some interest in this build.
I've done 1 layer of handle wrapping. I'll do one more and work in the tips a bit.
It's amazing how much reflex it's taken, I'm a little concerned but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I'll start trying to bend it in a month or so
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Can you strap it to a 2x4 to stop it from developing too much reflex or would it tear itself apart? Or break the 2x4 ;D
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DC- apparently lots of the reflex gets worked out, so I won't worry about it yet.
What was once an easily braced horn core, now barely moves when I bend it over my knee.
Its only been seasoning for a bit over a month so in the corner it sits.
This is what it looks like right now.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5704_zpsvo1fvbr1.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5704_zpsvo1fvbr1.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5705_zpshphpmpj1.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5705_zpshphpmpj1.jpg.html)
Still need to do another handle wrapping or 2, also some work on the tips. Soon.
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Lookin great Goat
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That looks great. You would have had a tough time finding a 2x4 to strap that to.
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Looks real good. Gonna make a sinew string?
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Coming along nicely
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Cheers guys.
Parnell, this bow will for sure get a sinew string, I couldn't picture the bow without it!
There's not too many sinew string build alongs out there, I'll put some photos up when I make mine. I'll tiller it with fast flight though
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If you put another layer of sinew you may want to string the tips together. Put a stout stick in the cords of your string that's long enough to touch the handle then using he stick twist the string tighter and tighter till the tips are almost touching. Then place the stick on the side of the handle and leave it that way for a
Month and it will reflex even better than just the sinew alone. Did my stick trick make any sense?
Name of the game with those horn bows is reflex the sinew is so incredible in tension and horn in compression you can do things with them (in regard to the energy storage) that you just can't with a horn bow that includes a wooden belly. Also for your final tiller don't scrape any more horn off just use heat and it will flex this way or that for you
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Thanks Ryan, I'm all done with the sinew, I think this is enough starting reflex for me.
I reverse braced my wood sinew bows but I really wanted to see how this one would curl up without it.
Have you made many horn bows? If so please post some! There isn't very many of these bows posted
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Have you made many horn bows? If so please post some! There isn't very many of these bows posted
I concur, please post some if you have them!
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As far as I know that string reflex method Ryan is talking about was only used on composites with a wood core in Asia. One of the main reasons for the wood core was stability to reduce twist of the horn. If you have tips touching on horn sinew bows you may have to work out a lot of twist. The bow will also be very unstable in the beginning. Also the horn belly on horn sinew bows is thicker than true composites. You have a normal amount of reflex for a seasoning sheephorn bow. I would not try for more unless your bow is very light(less than 40#)
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These bows always look intimidating to try and get a string on.
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Alrighty, I've recently finished with the messy stuff. 4 handle wrappings, and 3 sessions on the tips to get them how I wanted.
Maybe a bit overbuilt in the handle, but it seems like when these bows fail its usually in the handle area.
The reflex seems like its stopped gaining anymore, now the toughest part, let this thing sit for another 3-5 months.
Heres a few pics.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5848_zpsigtgvdd6.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5848_zpsigtgvdd6.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5853_zpsmt20fwb3.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5853_zpsmt20fwb3.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5850_zps0uxuss24.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5850_zps0uxuss24.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5854_zpsgfkvi2wn.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5854_zpsgfkvi2wn.jpg.html)
And number 2 in the works.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_6041_zpsuvltenqw.png) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_6041_zpsuvltenqw.png.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5891_zps1ifdibby.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5891_zps1ifdibby.jpg.html)
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_5890_zpsymzkoqki.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_5890_zpsymzkoqki.jpg.html)
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Very cool Ryan
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Good looking horns, what's the length?
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Is that just leg after leg of sinew on the handle?
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The curve on that baby is off the hook! :D
Seems like you'll be knocking out the hornbows like you do the Yew ones! :)
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Lordy wizgoat I'm watching here.Quite a build.Cool looking bow.Wish I liked shooting those short bows,but still like the whole process your going through there with natural materials etc. and the tillering is something else too I'm sure.
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Making some progress on number 2, getting your horns to bending billets is the most time consuming part.
Parnell- new horns are about 24", but I'll probably end up with around 16" of usable length, hopefully more.
DC- pretty much! There's a lot of sinew on the handle, I hope it pays off
Sieddy- I hope so, it's tough finding good horns though, a little easier finding nice yew and a lot cheaper 😉
Beadman- i enjoy shooting short bows, I'm mostly making this bow just to make it. I have a general idea on tillering, but I'm a little nervous for that part.
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Is it dry yet? ;D hows number two coming along? ;D ....sorry to be that nosey nieghbor 8)
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Hehe no my patience hasn't cracked on this one yet, got plenty of other things to keep me busy till this thing can be taught to bend. I've got the billets roughed out for #2, they need more shaping.
Working on a batch of dogwood arrows with trade points to accompany this bow.
Too many bows too little time
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This has been a cool build along, Goatster! Can't wait for the next installment.
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Hehe no my patience hasn't cracked on this one yet, got plenty of other things to keep me busy till this thing can be taught to bend. I've got the billets roughed out for #2, they need more shaping.
Working on a batch of dogwood arrows with trade points to accompany this bow.
Too many bows too little time
I'm not quite sure there is such a thing as "too many bows"
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Cheers Matt!
Aaron, I totally agree ;)
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Alrighty guys, its been about 5 months so I figured I should get back into this bow.
The limbs were quite stiff, I removed some horn with a scraper to get things moving again.
Heres a pic of starting reflex, and below it is horn bow number 2, awaiting a little more shaping and its sinew back.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_7192_zps7wdzwzxa.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_7192_zps7wdzwzxa.jpg.html)
I made this new caul, after seeing one of Chucks. I decided to remove a fair amount of reflex, to UP my chances of success, and to get a nice 5 curve look.
Using a heat gun for about 10-15 second on each limb, aimed at the horn belly, the limbs bent over the form easily.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_7212_zpsixviredt.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_7212_zpsixviredt.jpg.html)
I left it for a couple of days, unclamped it and was happy with how it looked.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_7253_zpss50sriex.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_7253_zpss50sriex.jpg.html)
I began to bend the bow over my knee holding each tip, much like I would with a short bow or kids bow. I took a few scrapes here and there, and tried to even up the bend.
First brace....was a little awkward. Short reflexed bows are never easy to string, and this one took the cake.
It didnt look half bad on the first brace, but took another 4 or 5 heat corrections and lots of scraping and sanding before it looked how I wanted it too.
I did take lots of photos of this process, I won't post them all, just where it ended up.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_7252_zpsy0vnmch9.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_7252_zpsy0vnmch9.jpg.html)
String alignment is good, and very little twist. Im happy I spent the extra time on the core dealing with these issues way back when.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_7219_zpso9easzgh.jpg) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_7219_zpso9easzgh.jpg.html)
Soon as I had it braced to a decent profile and height, I began to exercise it on my tree. I wasn't hoping for a high draw weight, somewhere between 40-50# would be just fine.
The bow is 30.5" ntn and has a 4" static handle. On that first session I could pull it to 12" before seeing a problem.
My thickness taper was super close, but my bottom limb looked to be bending too much in the deflex portion.
I decided to heat out some of the deflex, and it really seemed to help.
Again, I took many photos of the tillering process, but so many photos looking nearly identical would be a little boring.
This is where I ended up last night. I'll admit its not perfect, still needs a little work, but Im so happy to see this bow come to life.
I think I'm pulling 15" here, about 45#. I had her out to 16", and I think thats as far as I want her to go.
Shot about 30 arrows so far, I love it.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag255/wizardgoat/IMG_7272_zpsoxdpye5f.png) (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/wizardgoat/media/IMG_7272_zpsoxdpye5f.png.html)
And thats a wrap for this build along. I'm going to do some small tweaks, pretty her up, and make a matching set of northern plains style arrows.
And of course a sinew string. Thanks to those that showed interest in this build. I certainly learned alot, I hope you did too.
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That bow turned out great. It's amazing how much power can be stored in a short bow like that. Great job on the build.
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looks great goatman can't wait to see it all finished up
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Congrats on building a great horn bow. Job well done. Look forward to seeing it finished up with the arrows.
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I think you did an excellent job on the bow and the build along, can't wait for your next ;)
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Thanks a lot guys, I'll for sure post it when it's all prettied up.
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You did this right Ryan. Patience, good materials. Now you have a sweet little shooter.
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Thanks Chuck, you were huge help on this one.
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Good for you!
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Great to see her come out shooting mate! I really enjoyed following this thread it was really informative! :-)
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Congradulations wizardgoat on your successful build.Always nice to see a good closure to things.Thanks for showing it.
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Piece of art
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Very cool horn bow Goat.