Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: Scallorn on August 09, 2015, 01:29:19 am
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Just wanted to share something with y'all. For the past 5 years or so I've been fascinated by the art of making fires with primitive friction fire techniques. So naturally I began studying the methods of friction fire and eventually started trying it myself. I started out with the bow and drill method, as most people do when using friction fire. It took me a long time to learn all of the little details of wood type and condition of materials, and how to vary the pressure to create different types of dust. I failed more times than I could count and i gave up several times out of frustration. Sometimes I would go months at a time without trying again. But eventually I prevailed at creating that miraculous little ember. After becoming proficient at my bow and drill technique, I began the next challenge. The hand drill! It was another difficult task, but surprisingly it was not nearly as difficult as the bow and drill, because the details of wood selection and preparation are all the same.Over the years I've made made many fires with both methods in all types of weather and with many different materials. So nowadays I build all of my fires with a hand drill or bow and drill kit simply because I can. And I will never need to carry matches again anywhere I go.
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Friction fire is something I haven't given enough time to. How about sharing some of your techniques and materials. I'm sure, like myself others would like to know.
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Re: Friction Fire
« Reply #1 on: Today at 06:31:42 am »
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Friction fire is something I haven't given enough time to. How about sharing some of your techniques and materials. I'm sure, like myself others would like to know.
+1
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Friction fire is something I haven't given enough time to. How about sharing some of your techniques and materials. I'm sure, like myself others would like to know.
X2
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I'm also interested in this thread, but don't stop at the coal. I have an equally hard time turning it into fire once the ember is created. So let's see some of yall tricks and tips!
I have dried flax stalks stored in my workshop that make an awesome tinder nest, but it's not always easy to find dry stuff in the wild that works consistently.
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The best thing that I've found for tinder that even works when damp is dead cedar bark. You can just peel it off of a dead tree and shred it into fine fibers. That's my number one tinder. Another good alternative is to use dead cattail punk crushed up and then dead grass behind that. I've never used it but i hear dead thistle fluff works too. The key theme here is DEAD! It has to be as dead and dry as you can get it. If it's even the slightest bit green it'll have too much moisture and it won't work.
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Have you seen the cotton and charcoal method? Pretty sweet!
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Yeah the cotton thing is pretty awesome but in my opinion not very practical or efficient. Wood choice is absolutely critical with friction fire too. With the bow and drill method you want the spindle and the hearth board to be of the same piece of wood if possible. Otherwise one will consume the other and not produce. Good choices for wood are softwoods, willow, sycamore, cottonwood, and cedar are a few good choices. You can find a lot of really good videos on YouTube for technique. Wood for the hand drill kit is just as specific. Horseweed, cattail stalks, willow shoots, and yucca stalks are all good spindle choices. the hearth board can be any of the listed softwoods. Technique with the hand drill is really pretty simple. You just have to be patient with it and have the strength and endurance to see it through to the end because it will wear your arms out ;D
There is only so much that can be said about the art of friction fire, the rest has to be learned by experience. So just get out there and try it!
Any other questions are welcome.
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In the Deep South, Spanish Moss that is dried out is another good tinder. I also keep my saw dust when I cut fat pine, (lighter knot) and mix it with cat tail fluff. It goes up like you poured turpentine on it. ::)
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Yeah Mullet that sounds like a great combination. I bet a ferro rod would set it off in seconds too. I forgot to mention my favorite combination for hand drill kits. Dried yucca stalk spindle and dried willow hearth board. You can get an ember with that combo in a matter of seconds.
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Thanks Scallorn.
This is a ferro stick with a fat lighter handle I made as part of my fire starting kit. Not quite friction fire but a good addition to any fire kit.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IMG_0069_zpsb8vpking.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IMG_0069_zpsb8vpking.jpg.html)
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One of my favorites for hand drill is horseweed with a Rose of Sharon hearthboard, and for tinder certain birds nest work real good, can't be the rough sticky type , need to be real fine stuff. I also like mullien, yucca for spindles and pawpaw and white pine for hearth boards. I have a hard time getting enough down pressure so a little pine pitch on spindles helps alot ;D Bob
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I cut down a chinese tallow tree a while back how thick do i make the hearth board
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Bubby, I try and make my hearth boards thickness the same as drill diameter :o. I like my hand drills pretty thin 3/8 or so and bowdrills 5/8 to 3/4. Bob
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Yeah, what outbackbob said. The hand drill spindle needs to be about the diameter of your little finger, maybe a little smaller. The smaller the diameter of the spindle, the higher rpm's you can get, and thus more friction. I make mine about the size of my ring finger but that's only because I am using premium wood from my area and I've had enough practice that I can spin it allot. I don't know about Chinese tallow wood, but whatever wood you use has to be really soft. The way I've always tested it is to press my thumbnail into it. If you can leave a pretty good mark in it with your thumbnail it's about the right hardness.
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I figured I'd give it a shot its not a real hard wood
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At this years Elm Hall Event, Tony "Nakedfeet" did a great job of teaching several us us how to use the bow drill and hand drill methods.
He had a bow drill kit made with a basswood hearth board and spindle. We also found the shredded inner bark from white cedar to be great tinder. We had about seven in our group, and everyone was successful and making a fire. We also made several fires using a mullein spindle hand drill, with a basswood hearth board.
After the Elm Hall event, I traveled to the UP of Michigan and made a bow drill set out of a dead white cedar log. Both the spindle and hearth board were split and carved out of the same log and it worked great. I've attached pic of that set. I have now also successfully made a set from red cedar and taught my 14 boy scout nephew how to make a friction fire.
I'm still a novice at this, but It seems like the key besides having dry soft wood for the hearth and spindle, is to not apply too much pressure in the first part of the "drilling" sequence. Wait until you have a good bit of powder built up in the hearth board notch. It seems like the powder needs to be in contact with the hot spindle face in order to make an ember.
Also, if the wood is too hard it will smoke a lot and produce a burnt black powder, as opposed to a toasted brown powder. The black powder seems to be already burnt so it will not carry an ember well.
Hope this helps.
Ed
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Awesome! It's always so fulfilling to make fire with friction like that with equipment that you made yourself. Way to go man! The set looks really good too.
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After dinner tonight I had to use my set and show off for my wife. I was able to make an ember in about 40 seconds and quickly blow the tinder bundle into flame. It's a cheep way to entertain myself, lol.
I saw a you tube video of a guy that made a point to always build a new bow drill set every time he made a fire, then burn the set in the fire he built. This would force himself to get better at not only making friction fires , but also finding the correct materials in many different locations and conditions.
I will start to do the same in order to test myself, but I will keep that kit shown above to do demos at my home in suburbia. The neighbors will think it's magic, lol.
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Yep, I completely agree. I always burn my sets for that reason. I'm pretty much able to make a friction fire in any conditions my area can dish out.
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This weekend I will be doing a training hike in middle Tennessee and I know that there are some yucca plants growing on one hill top. If there are some flower stalks I'll collect a couple for a hand drill set. I will also collect some pine pitch like Outbackbob48 suggested, that sounds like the ticket to a quick ember and reduced blisters.
So Scallorn, do you ever go to any of the primitive archer events? it would be fun to run friction fire classes at these events "like we did at Elm Hall". At Elm Hall it wasn't formal, just started playing with it after dinner and beverages. Everyone really enjoyed learning a new skill set that could be very usefully.
Ed
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Forest Farmer, a little word of caution, using pine pitch on your hand drills helps increase your downward pressure, sadly it actually increases your chances of blister do to more friction, once your hands are tuff doesn't seem to matter. I just twisted one out of cedar and horseweed. Bob
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Bob,
It sounds like I'm going to have to work on toughening up my paws.
Based on your success, I may try to make a hand drill fire tonight using a mullein spindle and white cedar board.
BTW, what is horse weed? Is that the same as horse tails?
Ed
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I don't go to the PA events bu i wish i could. I don't know of any events in my area. I live in Paris TX
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Forest, we call it horseweed here but many names and confusions.Newcombs Wild Flower Guide, Horseweed(Erigeron canadensis) White or greenish flowers in very small (1/8' long) heads with minute, upright rays. Leaves lance shaped or narrow, the lower toothed. Stem usually with bristly hairs 3' to 7' high. Very common of fields and waste places. Summer and fall.Composite Family. Hope this helps, I find alot of it in oats fields and beans, Kinda looks like goldenrod without the bright yellow flowers. Bob
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I just got through reading in Backwoodsman Magazine that a hot water heater thermostat is the same material as a ferro stick. So, don't throw them away when you change them out.
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Thanks Bob that helps, I also looked it up on google images and based on the pics, it grows all over here in Tennessee. I'll give it a try.
Ed
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I don't go to the PA events bu i wish i could. I don't know of any events in my area. I live in Paris TX
Scallorn, I sure wish that you could make it up to TN for the Tennessee Classic in the Spring to teach all your tried and true techniques.
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There's a mushroom I find regularly called a tinder polypore that grows on birch trees. I know it's good fuel for the fire due to the pitch levels in birch. I assume it got it's name for a reason. If I find another one this season I'll see if it will nurture an ember to a flame.
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Hey Dakota, I saw a good Youtube video on the polypore fungus. Here'e a link to it, "i've never inserted a link so hopefully it works".
I will try to collect some this fall when i'm in Michigan. I haven't seen any here in Tennessee.
https://youtu.be/oJL-wZHkQuM
Thanks
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Dakota Kid, true tinder fungus or Chaga which grows on the birchs will catch a spark like char cloth or can be used to extend your coal from friction fires, it will not burst to flame by itself needs to be in a tinder bundle, other coal extenders are cap cracked polypores which grow on locust, there are many things used to extend coals but very few things which can catch low temp flint and steel sparks, the only ones that i know of other than char cloth are true tinder fungus and milkweed ovums, I don't build many flint and steel fires so I save my Chaga for teas and build my fires with coals created from bow drill or hand drills, I have been gathering a few plants as fall approachs, horseweed, mugwort and mullien, like to find a few yucca also. Later Bob
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thats great! its a great thing to learn. today, in need of a new bearing block for a bow drill set ,i gathered and made in the last few weeks, i found the perfect stone that fit my hand. almost next to it was a hard stone with kind of a pointy tip. so i began pecking. i did this for about a hour. got into a rhythm and i enjoyed it. soon it was perfect. took it home. this evening i tried it out. just to try it out. within about 30 seconds, a ember :) im gonna tell ya somethin. that feeling. that never ceases to amaze me. its a good feeling. like knapping a arrow point, making some cordage, maybe some clay vessels that fire nicely without cracks in your fire pit, that kind of nice. i call it the ugabooga feeling. like your alive.congrats on your skills. that is definately something to be very proud of! Tony
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UGABOOGA!
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My good buddy Josh sent me a few pieces of yucca to try for spindles. I think there might be gas and a lighter hiding in that stuff! I couldn't believe how quickly I made a big, hot ember that burned for a minute. It was under 10 seconds I'd guess.
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Leave it to you guys. Good timing.
I used to mess around with friction fires, but hadn't done it in years. Well in a few weeks I'm going up to the mountains and staying back in as long as I can, up to 4 weeks, bowhunting, foraging, and trapping. I would like to get by with nothing but friction fires, but we'll see how it goes. I'm taking flint and steel as a backup and just came in from making fire in less than 15 seconds with it... using some jute rope I stoll from my wife's craft table. It went up so quick... she ain't getting it back >:D
Then I got to looking around and found a willow hearth board and bow drill spindle, bearing block, and a nice bundle of mullein for hand drills. I'd like to stay here and chat, but I've got practicing to do.
I just found a nice standing dead lilac bush. Have any of you guys tried it?
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talk about finding stuff { twine} i found this.... at first i thought hey look a rock with a divit in it already i might be able to use this, then on closer inspection hey this was made a long long time ago. a real "abo" bearing block.i tried it out. but the spindles i use must be a little skinnier than this one was designed for . and besides id rather put this one on a shelf with my collection.so i made my own, the 3rd picture picture. it works. then i found out i was just holding the first one wrong. it works too. lol theres pecking on the opposite side of the one i found as well. the second picture.3 small pecks. you can tell the person making it thought about pecking the other side. the inside of the divit is smooth like glass. however the outside is a grainy texture. my new one fits my hand nice. but now i like that first one. :)
Tony
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Pearly, if ya look closely on the side of yucca's It says HIGHLY FLAMMABLE, I just twisted out a coal from Mullien drill and cedar hearth, never tried Lilac, but Rose of Sharon hearth worked great. Bob
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Thanks for posting this thread. As with the cedar bark, down in Florida, and wherever cypress trees grow, you can use that bark, just as you did with cedar. Mullet, do you mean the hot water "element", or thermostat? The element is what heats up the water, and that is what you replace to get hot water again. Which issue of Backwoods was that in? I have plenty of mullein. Too damn much of it! Most of it got weed whacked, but there are still some growing. Thanks again.
Wayne
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Hey guys,
I just returned from a nice 90 mile backpacking trip on the Appalachian Trail. While there, I had a goal of collecting materials during the hike to make a friction fire. I was able to collect decent, but damp materials, and was very close to getting and ember. I made some key mistakes that kept me from being successful, and i've listed them below.
1) I got lazy and used the same soft popular wood that I made the hearth board and spindle from, for my bearing block. This caused high friction on the top of the spindle, just as the hearth board was smoking good. This would ultimately make the spindle "seize up" before getting and ember.
2) I made a short bow, about a 12 in working stroke length. This might had been ok, if I didn't have the bearing block problem, but it does require more effort. I've found that with bows with about a 18" stroke length or more, it so much easier to build up heat with less effort.
I hope this is helpful.
Ed
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After reading about Pearlies success, I had to give the hand drill another go.
So I collected some new Mullien spindles here in TN and sat down this morning and tried to twist one out. Much to my surprise I was able to get an ember in about a minute. Not quite as impressive as Chris's 10 seconds, but I'll take it. This was the first time I had solo success with a hand drill, so I tried it again, and was able to twist our another one in about 45 second. I was using a white cedar hearth board, and white cedar bark for a tinder bundle.
I also collected some tinder fungus while on the Appalachian Trial, and tried to see how long I could keep an ember going. This stuff is magic!! It will keep an ember going for hours with a little attention, pretty cool.
Here is a pic of my hand drill set up from this mornings success.
Enjoy,
Ed
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Great thread guys- You- all may make
a firemaker out of me. :)
Thanks for shareing.
Zuma
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Zuma, Just came from the garage and got 2 seperate coals this evening, one with my favorite horseweed on cedar and the other from mullien on cedar, weather has changed and is pretty damp with high humidity so I was skeptical of getting coals, Somedays I can't build a coal to save myself next day is like burn'em up Chuck, very frustating to not be consist. I tried one tonight more as a matience thing, need to keep hands tuff and arms strong and need to work on wind. I have learned to be patient and not to try for a coal on first attempt but when I get tired I leave spindle in hole so as to keep as much heat as possible and catch my breath, sometimes have to repeat an catch breath again and third time hit really hard an get a coal. This stopping and starting also produces lots of sawdust for a hearth that is a little thick or just starting new hole and needs lots of build up. Get ya some materials an give it a try, When ya get your first coal it is a very very powerful moving feeling and when I fail it is very humbleing, Good Luck Bob
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Bob, I know where you are coming from. I'm very new to making friction fires, but have embraced learning all I can.
I made my fire hand drill fire a few days ago and it felt great, but I tried yesterday and couldn't do it,,,,very frustrating.
I made up for it tonight, by coaching a neighbor into making his first friction fire with my bow drill set. He was successful the first time, and was pretty stoked about it.
I don't know if it feels better to acquire to knowledge, or to pass it on??????
Ed
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I think that up and down humidity is what made people of the past so intent on keeping the fire burning once it was going.
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I am sure they learned to carry a coal without it going out also, or spent some cold damp nites. :( Bob
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Lots of talk about wood types, what type of cordage is being used for the bow. What about making cordage while collecting your spindle and board. I believe that is the next step in bow drill or learn the hand drill and skip the need for cordage.
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Nc, Went to a knappin with a friend of mine and he says anybody can build a fire with a manmade string lets try natural cordage. The odds of getting a coal before your string breaks defintly are harder, Had one guy make dogbane string but made it to thin and friction broke it before coal, my friend gathered some fresh hickory bark( smoothbark inner) and some grape vines and soaked in water. He 4 braided a huge in dia. rope(1-1/4") we laughed at his string and he started working bow stopped as string got loose but braids and stretch reduced his string to a 1/2" cable and ya should have seen him turn out the coals one after another with hardly any fraying, yea he had the last laugh. Actually hand drills are alot less labor as far getting materials gathered up. Try some natural cordages and let us know how it worked out. Bob
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I am sure they learned to carry a coal without it going out also, or spent some cold damp nites. :( Bob
According to material found on the Iceman (copper aged mummified corpse) he carried a cylinder made of birch bark, packed with maple leaves and other plants was used as a coal carrier. http://www.iceman.it/en/node/285 (don't know if the link will go directly to that or if you have to look at his equipment, it's all neat anyway)
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On YouTube I saw a great video on a ember extender fungus that grows on birch and other trees. It's called a milipore fungus. I collected a few on the Appalachian trail a few weeks back, and tried them out. Amazing stuf!!! Attached is a pic of a thimble sized piece that I transferred a bow drill ember to. This small piece kept an ember going for 35 min!!!
I will now keep a couple of these in my fire kit at all times. I've also attached a pic of the full fungi.
I also recommend checking out that YouTube video, it's under rewind university and search milipore fungus or chaga.
Ed
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my next friction fire im gonna try using twisted cambium from elm as my cordage. just to give it a whirl. might try elm roots too. the small diam. ones make for strong cordage.i bet you get about 3 thin ones twist into 3 ply cordage and they would work.Tony
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Tony, when using natural cordages, most all are strong enough as far as tension , there weakness is in abrasion or friction where they ride against each other, I have even tried tipping my bow hand upward so as not to rub my cordage togeather as much, helped some. Let us know how the elm works. Bob
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I never tried to make my own bow drill cordage, but I know I can and I know it will work when I decide to do it. For now, I just enjoy making fire with no match or lighter or flint or char clothe. Suppose that's similar to the wooden bow with a FF string on it, good enough for me :)
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I make the cordage out of brain tan deer, works fine. That's pretty natural. ;) :)
Pappy
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Pappy, I bet it is pretty abrasion resistant also :D I used 2 pc of deer rawhide twisted together and it worked pretty good. Bob
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Yes it does stretch a bit to start but after you get that set it hold up good. :)
Pappy
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Pappy & Bob,
I've used a sinew bow string that I made and it works great. I have some yucca leaves that I will process into cordage and also give that a try.
I've also been practicing with my hand drill, and took Bob's advice and tried horse weed. The piece I had worked good, just could have been a little thicker. This was about 5/16".
I also found that after making an ember , it's best to redress the spindle tip and cut off any burnt material. This seemed to make the process a lot quicker.
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Great info guys...I have heard everything you need to start a fire is in a poplar tree. The inner bark for cordage and wood for the spindle and board. I have stripped small poplar trees to make cordage and it will work however I have not tested it for friction. I am certain that is going to be hard on it. Dogbane does make great cordage if you can find it when needed. Poplar bark seems to be available over a larger range of areas.
I agree with Pappy about using brain tanned hides. I have used it with success. Rawhide will also work well. If you could trap or otherwise get an animals hide you would have some great bow drill material plus a good meal when you got your fire started... :laugh:
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Lyman, I have used Tulip Popalar for bow drills , hearth and spindle with mixed results, Some worked pretty well and others were iffy, Needs to be really dry for sure, never messed with the inner bark for cordage but dry dead inner bark made good tinder bundles. Forest, I like to trim up the end also and some get a burnished end and needs a trim for sure. i also make a small divet in the pith , not sure if it is really necessary. I believe the thinking is less friction surface , drill will just be cutting on circle edge, eventually ends up making a hump in drill hole. Bob
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I have seen some lengthy lists of plant species for the western states detailing which species are best for hearth boards and which make good spindles. I have never seen a good list for the eastern states. This thread is filling in that gap. :D
Here are some items I have been successful with here in Missouri
Hearth boards: baldcypress, eastern red cedar, drift wood cottonwood, drift wood silver maple
spindle: yucca flower stalk, horseweed, ragweed stem.
tinder: dogbane fibers left over from string making, cedar bark shredded, fine shaving from my bow making (hickory, ash, osage orange, etc.)
This thread has some good comments about species and combinations. I like it.
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I have seen some lengthy lists of plant species for the western states detailing which species are best for hearth boards and which make good spindles. I have never seen a good list for the eastern states. This thread is filling in that gap. :D
Here are some items I have been successful with here in Missouri
Hearth boards: baldcypress, eastern red cedar, drift wood cottonwood, drift wood silver maple
spindle: yucca flower stalk, horseweed, ragweed stem.
tinder: dogbane fibers left over from string making, cedar bark shredded, fine shaving from my bow making (hickory, ash, osage orange, etc.)
This thread has some good comments about species and combinations. I like it.
You know, I totally agree and hope this thread can be archived or included in the tutorials before it is someday just forgotten. ???
Zuma
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Have any of you tried the Egyptian bow drill? It is a short bow, with the string tied to the spindle, and there is excess string, so that it can be wrapped around the spindle, by twisting the spindle, and you use like a regular bow drill, with a sawing motion, but the string is not being rubbed back and forth on the spindle, so not much friction wear on the string.
Wayne
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I've seen it, but yet to duplicate it on my own.
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Never seen the Egyptian set up, if someone makes one please post a pic.
I have been working on the hand drill technique, and trying to figure out how to be more consistent. Here are a couple of tips that I discovered, or found while watching youtube videos.
1) if your spindle starts to get burnished on the fiction face, add a very small amount of sand, or ground stone to the divot on the hearth board. This will help you to generate dust much faster, and save your strength. This was a big discovery!! it really helps, especially when damp, or using less than ideal materials. Just don't use too much or you will quickly drill through your hearth board.
2) A good alternative to using pine pitch on the spindle to make it less slippery, is bees wax, or bow makers string wax. I figure most people on this site have some laying around.
These two tips have greatly improved my success rate on making embers with a hand drill. In fact, I have not failed using these tips, even tried them this AM which was very moist out.
Hope this helps,
Ed
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Outback Bob,
On your post below, you mentioned that you saved chaga for tea. Can you explain how you made the tea, and are there any risks with this. Oh, and does it taste good?
I'm always looking for new type of foods that are foraged, hence the name "Forest Farmer"..
Thx,
Ed
Re: Friction Fire
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2015, 12:18:24 pm »
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Dakota Kid, true tinder fungus or Chaga which grows on the birchs will catch a spark like char cloth or can be used to extend your coal from friction fires, it will not burst to flame by itself needs to be in a tinder bundle, other coal extenders are cap cracked polypores which grow on locust, there are many things used to extend coals but very few things which can catch low temp flint and steel sparks, the only ones that i know of other than char cloth are true tinder fungus and milkweed ovums, I don't build many flint and steel fires so I save my Chaga for teas and build my fires with coals created from bow drill or hand drills, I have been gathering a few plants as fall approachs, horseweed, mugwort and mullien, like to find a few yucca also. Later Bob
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Forest, You can take a pc of chaga and simmer for an hr in say a qt of water or so, strain and drink with a little honey for sweetner. Can also be ground and just pour water over grounds and steep, I f you use the chunks you can resimmer until tea gets to weak, save chuncks redry and use for flint and steel. Chaga tea is very mild to drink, The only side effect for me is sometimes makes me dream ;D Look up benfits on search. Hope this helps Forest. Oh some make ice tea after brewing :D Bob
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I have heard that you should not use the blackened outside edges of chaga for tea. I however use a wood rasp and run it across the chaga (red core and black outside) and make a small amount of powdered tea. Put in a coffee cup and pour hot boiled water on it. Add a little local honey and let it sit for a while. I really like the flavor and the natural health bennefits. Wish it would grow near me.
Never tried drying it after using as tea. Good idea Bob, will give it a go.
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Thx Bob and NC, I'll do some research and give the chaga tea a try.
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To me it tastes like a mix of tea, and coffee.
Wayne
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Hey Guys, I was doing some quick research on chaga and polypore fungus. It turns out that there are many types of polypore fungus, Chaga is just one type.
The image I posted in this earlier in this thread is a type of polypore, but not true chaga. So I don't know if it's safe to make tea from. I attached a pic of a true chaga fungus that grows on birch trees.
It sounds like the true chaga grows up North on birch, and i'm not sure if it actually grows here in TN. If anyone has more info, please share. At this point I not going to try making tea out of the polypores that I collected, but they are still great ember extenders.
Sorry for the confusion.
BTW,
There is a ton of info on the benefits of chaga tea, so I will seek some out and try it. Just need to make sure I collect the right stuff ;)
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Forest, I don't believe you will find it in Tenn. :( I have found a few on yellow birch but have seen more on our black birchs here in NW Penna. I work with a surveyor and spend alot of time looking at empty yellow birchs, I have to travel 50 miles or so to get into the hilly black birchs country. Have fun and let us know how it goes. Bob
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Bob,
I wanted to let you know, that i collected several horse weed spindles and after trying them they are my new favorite!! They grow everywhere in middle TN, and if you get a nice straight piece about 5/16" dia. you can twist out a ember really fast.
Thanks for the tips!!
Ed
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Forest, I have found horseweed growing in the Round-up ready soy beans, Farmers here tell me they have built a tolerance to round up doesn,t kill them, Seem to be real abundant, Mugwort is real common here and supposed to be excellent I need to harvest some before we get covered in snow :( :o Forest if you need some Chaga let me know and I'll drag some to the Classic or send ya some. I sat down yesterday with a pc of horseweed and red cedar and made 3 coals in row, Some days just can't quite get one. Drives me crazy with inconsistsy, I seem to be getting better though , less failures. What type material are using for hearth boards?
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Does the red and white of cedar work equally as well?
I would think the outer white wood is best. Also can you break a dead limb off and use it or is the stuff on the ground and aged better?
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Bob & NC,
I'm mainly using white cedar, it seems softer than red cedar. I agree with NC on using the outer white wood of red cedar, because it does seem softer than the red heart wood.
The main thing that i recently found to help with my consistency is the dressing of the spindle tip after using it (remove the burnt portion), and using a little bit of grit, or sand in the divot of the hearth board (if the hearth board starts to glaze over). That little bit of grit, helps to make dust faster. Also, when warming up the spindle, I really try to stay relaxed and not to go too fast, that helps save my strength.
As soon as I get the notch about 3/4 full of dust, then I start applying more speed and pressure. I usually get a ember within about 20 seconds, after the notch is 3/4 full.
The more I play with this, I keep finding that a calm relaxed technique is just as important as having good materials. I quickly knocked out an ember yesterday and it was wet rainy and very high humidity, but the spindle and hearth board were dry.
Bob,
I would love to try some of your chaga. If you send some here that would be great, or you could bring some to the classic. I will definitely be brewing up a nice ale for the classic and the chaga may help to counter the i'll effect of the ale. ;D
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Went to a Rendezvous the other day and a guy had Buffalo bones on the trade blanket.(from a buffalo farm in Virginia) I spotted a rib bone and scored it. I have been rubbing mineral oil into it to give it some natural flexing ability. So far it has worked great and I really like it. The cord is a brain tanned deer hide that has been dyed in walnut. The socket is an elk antler base from an antler I found in Colorado.
I carry the rib bone in my otter hide arrow quiver.
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Nc , nice lookin kit, looks like ya got a nice long bow(rib) I have seen some that looked awfully short.
Ed, I have to agree with ya about trying to be calm and relaxed, when i muscle it I usally fail. I just recieved 80 bdft. of white cedar, guess I should have enough hearth boards for awhile, MY winter project white cedar strip canoe. Just what i need to go with my trapping, hunting braintanning flintknapping foraging addictions. :o :o ;D Bob Ed PM me your addy and i'll send ya some chaga to play with. Bob
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That is a good looking kit NC, nice job!.
Bob, it does sound like you will have plenty of spare cedar for bow drill kits and please send pics of the canoe as your building it. That will be a way cool winter project. I will send over my contact info in a PM. Thank you very much for the chaga, I look forward to trying some.
Also, I was thinking that it would be fun to have a primitive fire class at the TN classic this spring. I'm collecting a lot of different spindles and will make up some hearth boards to give out. It was such a good feeling to learn this skill when Naked Feet "Tony" held a class this summer at Elm Hall, so I think it would be great to pass it on.
Let me know if you're interested, and if a few of us band together we should have enough skills and materials to have a nice class.
Ed
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So far my only friction fire i have been able to make was from bambo, it sparkes pretty easy, however don't grow in my neck of the woods. So for now i carry my bic. ;)
I have seen several people saying when using a hand drill to try pitch for better downward pressure. you can also put a notch in the top end use a short piece of cordage with a loop on each end to place your thumbs in for pressure.
Thanks to all who put advice on here. I'm looking forward to giving this more time. Ed
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I just went and tried a pic of Eastern white cedar for my hearth board and worked just fine with a horseweed spindle, I think it was a little better than western red cedar that i have been using. Bob
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I tried a piece of white pine today for a hearth board, it was a split from a commercial 2 x 4 . Had a horse weed spindle and I could not get an ember. Tried all my tricks, and still no joy. The white pine was very soft so I'm not sure what the problem was. It glazed over quickly and it was very thought to get any heat.
Oh well, now I know.
Ed
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Ed, I worked construction all my life and most of the 2x4 were stamped Hem Fir and are also kiln dried, not sure if kiln drying matters.I never could fiqure out exactly what type of wood Hem Fir was but the ones here were not white pines, not saying yours are not. A friend of mine swears by using white pine dug up from stumps,(roots) I have gotten coals from white pine but with mixed results, Some pcs were to hard and seem to have resin or pitch others were alot softer and worked fine. Same friend has given me some Paw-Paw and it worked pretty good and worked real good with bow drills, I have also used some of the wife's Rose of Sharon >:( :( :o I trimmed a few dead branches off and like the Pine some worked excellent and others were just to hard, Someone told me to throw those harder pcs outside an let them weather and get gray looking then dry back out and retry. If your up for a challenge get ya some beech spindle and hearth board and see how ya do with the bow drill, make sure and pack an extra sandwich ya may need it. ;D Chaga is on it's way. Bob
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Hem Fir is a label that includes Hemlock or one of the true Firs. It is not Douglas fir.
http://www.wwpa.org/SPECIESPRODUCTS/HemFir/tabid/299/Default.aspx
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Thanks DC, if I'm not careful I learn something new everyday :o ;D Kinda had a feeling it was something like that, I knew it wasn't a cross breed tree like a BeaglePoo ;D. Bob
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Thanks for the Info Bob & DC.
You are probably right on the 2 x 4 wood type. I just assumed they were white pine, but like you said, you learn something new everyday, if your not careful. Learning is one of the best things about being on the "top side" of dirt, and one of the best things about getting older. lol
Bob, Ill pass on trying the beach wood for now. After my lack of success with the fir hearth board, and a failed attempt this morning, my tail is now between my legs, and my paws are sore. :-X
On this mornings failed attempt, I tried a new horse weed spindle that I collected on last night's hunt. This piece of horse weed was taller and lighter than ones I collected earlier this year. I also noticed that the pithy core was much larger. That ratio of pithy core to harder outer shell seems to make a difference in getting an ember. It seems like on a 5/16" dia spindle, if you have a core of more than 1/8" dia, it may be too soft.
It was easy to get make dust and get smoke, but because the core was so soft, the spindle and white cedar hearth board would turn into dust before it got hot enough for an ember. This could also be a case where I tried to rush it, and applied to much pressure, not sure.
I'm almost certain that a person with better techniques than me, may have gotten an ember. I will post some pics later showing the end grain of a spindle that worked good, and one that failed. Let me know if you have ever noticed the same thing.
What's great about this thread is collectively we are identifying many of the variables, and details that account for success and failure. We're eliminating some of the "black magic" of making a friction fire. Good stuff!
Enjoy your day!
Ed
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Ed, if ya just picked the horseweed yesterday maybe still a little damp? :( I have also noticed as my spindles get shorter sometimes pith thickness or outside wall covering changes and results vary, Like I said before the very next thing NA learned was how to carry a coal :o or suffered thru some cold nights. I just got a coal with mugwort on white cedar and then turned around a failed with a mullien spindle on same hearth board. I hear ya about tail between legs, Dang humbling and it don't take long. Bob
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Bob, you could be right about the dampness. It's rained here off and on for the last week. I'll let the spindle I failed with dry out for a week and then give it a try again.
You are also correct about carrying an ember. I also believe that if they got a good working kit together they would take care of it.
I plan to make a nice elm bark tubular case / quiver for my kit, complete with a lid to keep moisture out.
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Just tried a new combonation today :o Cattail spindle on white cedar hearth an hate to admit it but I failed to get a coal. :( I had plenty of dust and quite a bit of smoke, but I ran out of gas a tad to early, one other thing that I believe cattail base are a little thicker diamiter than I like. My spindle was a full 1/2" dia. and may have led to my early running out of steam. i have been told that just a few inches of the base is good after that gets to soft and fiberous as you wear down your spindles. i will let ya know after a little more expermenting. Going out to shed to flesh some deer hides, That will help the old arm strength ;) :o Bob
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I got my first hand drill coal a few weeks ago. That was very cool. I used a yucca spindle and basswood hearth. It was surprisingly fast. I think my good buddy Josh may have soaked the yucca in jet fuel before he sent it. That stuff is amazing.
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Its back yard bonfire weather down here in TN, and I've been making all my fires with the bow drill. It's a bit tougher when it's very cold and damp, but still doable.
My luck lately hasn't been as good with the hand drill. Lots of smoke but my hands / arms Peter out before I get a coal.
I've recently had fun with a bow drill using a large 3/4" mullein spindle on white cedar hart board. You talk about a quick coal,,,,seconds. I will try to make a " mini bow drill set" with a normal 5/16" Dia horseweed spindle and white cedar hearth board. I think if the spindle is short and you have a good top bearing block you could do it with breaking the spindle.
I'll keep you posted.
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Ed, Josh sent me what I would call a leather thong for the hand drill. It hooks over the top and your index fingers go in each loop. It wont allow your hands to ride downward so you have constant friction.
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Pearly, if ya look closely on yucca stalks in real small print it says HIGHLY FLAMMABLE, stuff works great, now ya need to step it up and try on all kinds of combo. Ed, You can use your regular sized bow drill and spindles and just insert a tip with differnt type materials just like a foreshaft on a atlatl dart. Bob
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Chris,
This just sounds wrong, but can you post a pic of your thong. The one that josh sent you for the hand drill,,, no other type of thong pics please. Lol
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When pearly boy posts a picture of his thong I hope there's no cottontails hanging.......
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Pauly, Pauly Pauly. ;D
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Thanks Paul - that's an image I could have gone with-out ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:! Bob
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Pauly, Pauly Pauly. ;D
To date still the funniest story I heard all year Ed!!
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Bob I have used 3 kinds of spindles now. But why fight it? I use what works best. Like osage, fly rods, and wool!
I'll text a pick of my thong to you cottontail ;)
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Thanks for the pics, Chris.
And I'm very happy to have the honor of funnest story around the camp fire.
Ed, aka forest farmer , aka cotton tail.