Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jayman448 on April 22, 2015, 09:25:47 pm
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I remember reading in bowiers bible wrapping a hinge or small crack with sinew as a bandaid solution. Would it be worth it to try this on light chrisels
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Belly fractures are usually caused by putting to much pressure on the bow before it was tillered properly, black locust is the worlds worst to let you know if your tiller job is off by getting these little fractures.
A sinew wrap will not fix the problem and when you usually have one failure more are likely to appear over time. You can heat treat the belly of a bow to help harden it and this will help eliminate the problem to some degree, but once they are there you can't getting rid of them.
just my .02$ worth.
E
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j think the most widely accepted cure for chrysals is to start a new bow. :) You can use a torges patch to repair it, and i have had success with those. Essentially cutting out the failed wood and reglueing new wood in with urac or resorcinol.
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So, why would it work for patching some forms of weak spot and not others?
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Because there's no compression strength in sinew.
Are the frets in a hingy spot? Post pics it helps
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If a bow chrysals then it's been severely overstressed in this spot. The woods strength in tension was all that has stopped it from blowing. Wood is naturally weaker in compression therefore you get chrysals.
This has already happened and cannot be reversed.
So what you are left with a section of the belly that doesn't have the resistance to bending that the rest of the undamaged belly has and therefore receives a 'double whammy' of stress. It was already overstressed just before the chrysals showed up, if this weak spot had been caught earlier in the tillering process then you could have made the necessary adjustments needed to stop that section of bellywood getting damaged.....but that didn't happen so now you have this weak spot AND damaged wood at this weak spot.
Putting sinew on the back will eventually make that section of limb 'stronger' and therefore take some load of the belly BUT your bellywood is still damaged. Sinew has little stretch resistance so you will have to put lots on the 'cure' this problem.
The best fix is to start a new bow and tiller it well. Wood speaks to you as you tiller through set (however small) and will tell you that it's about to chrysal..... An actual chrysal though is like the wood giving you a smack on the back of the head.....and shouting you should have listened to me!
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You can try putting on a patch of rawhide over the chrysals.
There are actually 2 causes for chrysals.
First, is a tillering issue. The stave bends too much in one spot and the belly collapses. Chrysals are localized. Had plenty of these. One never knows how long a chrysalled bow will last. I've shot one for a good year.
I have not had many BL bows chrysal but have had lots of white ash chrysal. So much so that I stopped using ash.
Second, is a design issue. Chrysals occur over most of the limb. I have not had any of these but I've seen bows that exhibit this type.
Jawge
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Still not getting why you keep recommending rawhide as anything more than an out of sight out of mind solution.
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The title says it all. A bandaid covers the wound until the wound heals, not likely the wood is going to heal here.
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My reasoning is that the rawhide would keep the limb from bending too much in that area. Take some of the compression. I've used it. Quick and easy.
I would not waste time doing a wood patch.
Rawhide is a bandaid.
Jawge
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Make a bow and then rawhide the whole belly and see if it provides any sort of compressive strength.
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Pat, what are the other choices for prolonging the inevitable failure caused by chrysals?
You can retiller leaving the chrysalled area alone and removing wood from above and below the spot? Retiller the other limb also to match. That works.
You can do a patch. Too much work.
You can do the rawhide. That works.
You can make another bow. That works too.
Whatever makes you happy. :)
Jawge
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I am saying that it makes no difference. Rawhide just isn't stiff enough to take that sort of load. You might as well stick a piece of duct tape over the chrysal or a dab of paint.
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This is just a hipothetical question to possibky gqin a to fkt the toolbox. I was mre thinking of if you were to sinew all the way around the bow as if wrapping a bandaid around your finger (not just the back ) in hopes of stiffening that one area was my thought process. I see the majority wont bother tho. Interesting to see everybodys opinions tho :laugh:
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Bow material needs to run from end to end, not around.
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PatM, have you tried it? Jawge
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Of course.
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Is the bow still intact? Jawge
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there are varying degrees of chrysls,,,, just because you have some minor ones does not mean the bow is gone,, I am shooting a 20 year old black locust bow,, that had some chrysls when when I got in a hurry tillering,, I didnt remove wood from that spot and tillered the bow more evenly and it is still shooting great no set 20 years later( with no increase in damage),, I shot this bow alot through a couple of tournament seasons,,, it really depends on how bad they are,, and if you can even the tiller to take stress off that part of the bow,, I have a friend that damaged his first bow and it chrysled,, we evened the tiller and still shooting fine,,years later,,,, that being said I am sure some bows have been damaged beyond repair,,, if the bow is slightly overbuilt you have more of a chance,, if the bow is stressed to the max,, then chances of recovery are less,,, that is why when first building a bow ,, an overbuilt design gives you a better chance of success,,,, as far as patching I am not an expert on that,, but if you can make that part of the bow stiffer,, and reduce stress to the belly there,, it should help in some minor cases,,,,, :)
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Haha. Im loving these varying opinions xD
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Is the bow still intact? Jawge
Of course not. But you can better test rawhide as a compressive material by adding a full belly to a completed bow and checking the poundage increase.
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Now, Pat, let me see if we can work through this to determine how and why your bow broke.
Could you please describe to me exactly how the bow broke, the way it broke, where it broke and exactly how it appeared after it broke.
Thanks.
Jawge
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It folded at the rawhide/chrysal section of course. Would you rawhide the belly of a uniformly chrysaled Black Locust bow and call it fixed?
PS this bow was deliberately designed to test the theory. I don't do patch jobs on permanent bows.
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Pat,
These days I chrysalled bows prop up tomatoes in the Jawge Broken Bow Garden. Haven't had one in quite a few years.
In my early days , though, I tried to extend their life as long as possible.
Sorry, your bow folded on you.
I've only had one do that and that was back in the early 90's.
There is no fix for a bow that frets so badly (worse, deeper than chrysals) so that it folds.
Perhaps, the rawhide patch will aid a bow not so far gone.
As I mentioned previously design problems (too short, too narrow) cause chrysals that extend over the whole limb. I believe there is no fix for that.
As I mentioned to you the fix has worked for me but it was a long time ago and I don't remember how long I shot the bow afterwards.
I've been doing this a long, long time. I do not recommend things that haven't worked for me.
Thanks.
Jawge
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I've done the patch job, replacing wood, on a couple of honey locust bows, it worked for a while, but they eventually failed and quite dramatically.
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I can't see rawhide adding any compression resistance to a belly. It's not dense enough or stiff enough. To find out do what Pat suggested and make a bow, measure the draw weight then add a rawhide belly and weight it again.
Dean Torges's patches do work but they need to be perfectly executed and personally I wouldn't waste my time now. If I were to get a chrysal now I would probably cry for a bit, bang my head on the wall for rushing then toss the piece of wood into the kindling pile.
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Haha. Seems i have started quite the "discussion" lol.
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In my book, frets=junk. Cut it in half and turn it into an Atlatl or like Jawge says, "garden stakes". I figure the only reasonable wrap job is if you are reinforcing a parallel check line on the bows back as insurance. Other than that...do over.
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The problem with all these supposed fixes is that they seem to have bred a generation of careless bowyers. We're seeing a lot of bows now with all sorts of careless mistakes because the maker has been led to believe that there are cures for everything.
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The problem with all these supposed fixes is that they seem to have bred a generation of careless bowyers. We're seeing a lot of bows now with all sorts of careless mistakes because the maker has been led to believe that there are cures for everything.
"A generation of careless bowyers"? ??? Is that really what you think?
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Im genuinely interested as to what those careless mistakes are that you see so much of. And please bear in mind fellas this is just bowmaking questions. Lets keep it polite brothers
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I'm as careless as they come, but damn good at it! :)
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most of the mistakes I see are from guys just learning or with less experience,,,, and the bows I see now seem consistently well made and some amazing,, if you want to throw your bow away because it got a chrysal then that would be your bow and your decision of course,, patching something severe is questionable for sure( if not impossible),, fretting a bow to the point of failure is something that usually happens when first learning,, or when experimenting with pushing the design to the limit,, not a normal occurrence with an experienced bow maker,, I will stand by my statement that a minor fret is not the death of a bow,,this I know from experience, I have put rawhide on the belly of a bow,, and it did not increase draw weight,, but did hide the rasp marks as intended,, I feel like the quality of bow making has increased since I started 20 years ago,, dont get me wrong, there were great bows and bow makers back then,, I think with the sharing of knowledge , there are more great bows and bow makers now :)
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I'm as careless as they come, but damn good at it! :)
Chris, I'm the genuine beatnick of bow wood. I'm thinking of changing my handle to "slipshod", or perhaps "slapdash". I feel it would really serve my personal style...'cause ya know, I'z gots ta represent. ::)
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HAHAHAHAHAHA! Its true man. Im a bit haphazard, but somehow my experience pulls me through in the end. I can barely explain how I do things because its rare I do them the same twice. You know, typical junk we see nowadays from new guys.
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The problem with all these supposed fixes is that they seem to have bred a generation of careless bowyers. We're seeing a lot of bows now with all sorts of careless mistakes because the maker has been led to believe that there are cures for everything.
"A generation of careless bowyers"? ??? Is that really what you think?
Sure. Not everyone obviously but we definitely see tons of patch jobs where guys have gouged too deeply or worked defects carelessly with the knowledge that so and so has said it can be repaired.
Now we also have heat treating being used to "repair" hinges and weak spots.
Super glue is also used as a cure all.
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Since everyone is throwing caution to the wind I might as well throw my two cents in... ::)
If a bow needs ANY kind of "bandaid" I deem it an inferior piece of wood and chuck it in the burn pile and cook hot dogs,hobo pies,n smores for me and the fam >:D N i ain't joking
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What about pizza in a Dutch oven? Will that work to Bad Chris? :)
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Once you get a decent stash of staves it's a lot easier to turf one. When you're first starting and waiting impatiently for them to dry it's a whole different story. You just don't want to let go :( :(
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What about pizza in a Dutch oven? Will that work to Bad Chris? :)
^ hell yeah....ya know us Hollanders have a saying that goes " ya ain't much if ya ain't dutch" :laugh:
Yeah...I'd rather use it to put tasty things in my belly than getting a whack on my head :laugh:
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Once you get a decent stash of staves it's a lot easier to turf one. When you're first starting and waiting impatiently for them to dry it's a whole different story. You just don't want to let go :( :(
BINGO
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Once you get a decent stash of staves it's a lot easier to turf one. When you're first starting and waiting impatiently for them to dry it's a whole different story. You just don't want to let go :( :(
Wood selection is my other pet peeve when it comes to creating problems that need fixing.
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I still think it is mostly inexperience that looks careless,,most of the guys with experience pretty much agree on most things ,, a few fine points are open to interpretation as always,,, :)
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Even a bandaid solution teaches you something although it's best not to go there in the first place
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When my fire was first lit I didn't have the patience to go looking, I used whatever I had near me. Even knowing it wasn't good stuff I carried on because I couldn't help myself. The urge to at least TRY this hobby had a stronghold on me. There was no way I was going to sit around for a week or two until I could find better lumber. Im glad I took the route I did and learned what I did. I am who I a today because of it. Its easy for me now to say not to use something and wait because Ive built so many and because I have a premium stash. Before that? Good luck stopping me from using anything I felt like using.
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I saw Gordon do a rawhide patch over a crack from a knot in the side of a hazelnut bow in his one build along. Granted, it was in the handle. But I certainly wouldn't deem it an inferior or compromised piece of wood.
That being said, I wouldn't let a bow with a defect go out to someone else, but I wouldn't just pitch it.
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When you have a knot go through the limb sideways it is always kind of a pain. I leave them stiff in those spots. If you try to bend them like the rest of the limb the wood can't find the nuetral plane. As soon as it hits the knot it just chrysals. If I was going to patch it I would stiffen it at the same time or possible cup out the entire knot and inlay something more flexable. It does look like a sideways knot where he chrysaled. If the bow is not hinging in that spot I would give it about 100 full draws and if it still looked ok I would ignore it.
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I saw Gordon do a rawhide patch over a crack from a knot in the side of a hazelnut bow in his one build along. Granted, it was in the handle. But I certainly wouldn't deem it an inferior or compromised piece of wood.
That being said, I wouldn't let a bow with a defect go out to someone else, but I wouldn't just pitch it.
Gordon no longer does that.
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That's cool, but why did Gordon do that only a few years ago after several hundred bows? Rookie......
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Classic case of what I'm talking about. He had a guru tell him it was a good idea. ;)
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Huh, I apparently don't know everything about everything like the rest of you. I should've expected my level of pretentiousness wasn't up to snuff for this thread. Lol
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Im on your side CF, don't be getting all mad at me. What is misunderstood here is "we" aren't encouraging folks to make junk because there are 200 ways to fix junk. "We" are encouraging them to continue on and not quit because of an obstacle on less than perfect wood.
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Lol, I'm just joking around. All I'm saying is that, if it's good enough for Gordon, and that's what turned out. It's good enough for me. :)
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Remember that Gordon made that bow 8 years ago and it was the first short hazel bow he made.
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I think part of the reason we see more of these quick fix solutions is because there are a ton more guys building bows most just starting
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As a pure noob who lives in a wood desert and doesn't have the spare cash laying around to overpay for ebay staves nor anything if intrinsic value to trade i am in possession of one. .. yes one piece of real genuine bow wood. . A hickory stave given to me by parnell and 3/4 complete (waiting to return to his house for me to finish)... i have made every mistake a budging bowyer can make. .. and learning about patching mistakes hasn't made me sloppier... if anything is made me better at doing this. .. I've broken what could have been a really nice bow because i thought it was ready to be pulled before IT thought it was ready...
But due to those screw ups and new knowledge on how to repair them has me more careful. ..
Hell. . I wish i had the room to work. . The fancy tools. . And the access to wood most of you guys have. ..
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Hey paco hang tough it will happen, at least you have someone to help ya out, I've been building a long time and never worked with another builder
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I just read through this thread and was startled to find myself agreeing with PatM. That sort of threw me for a loop for a bit, but then he started off on the tangent that fixes create carelessness. ??? Alas, my equilibrium was restored! I can't agree with that. Just having a little fun Pat. >:D. As to the original question, as great as sinew is, it does have its limitations. Simply wrapping the sinew around the chrysaled section won't help. A chrysal is a compression failure and has been mentioned many times already, sinew has no compression value. In fact it has no tension value when simply wrapped around the limb. The fibers are running the wrong direction in that application. Josh
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So a better fix would be a ~6" course of sinew on the back of the bow. .. 3" on either side of the crack then wrapped at each end to keep from lifting?
It would shift the stress from the belly forward into the back. ..
Just an idea
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you could always cut off the offending limb,, and splice a new one on,, or make a takedown,,bow making is supposed to be fun,,
creative solutions are part of the process,, no wood is perfect and usually requires some resolution of one issue or the other,,I hate to give up on a piece of wood I have invested hours in,(especially if I dont have more wood), I have learned to resolve problems by pushing the limit on trying to "fix" something,, some fail some success,,,but as long as I learn( even if I learn that wont work) I progress as a bow maker and am able to contribute in a positive way in many instances,, when I started and someone said that wont work,, I usually wanted to see for myself,, I think we see alot of that in the new guys,, and thats ok,,different people have different reasons for making bows,, some are professional and some are just for fun,, two different view points for sure,,,,some just enjoy the process win or loose,,success comes in just trying,,,,,if I can help in any way that is great for me,, I try to give suggestions that have worked for me in the past and hope for the best,, :)
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Why do some people with weak backs, or weightlifters, use wide waist belts?
What do hightop sports shoes accomplish?
Why wrap a sports injury?
Why does REI recommend stiff hightop boots for backpack loads instead of just any old trail shoe?
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A false sense of security. ;)
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Well at least you are consistent Pat. :)
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A 'weak' back is due to using it incorrectly. Nobody is born with a weak back they don't exercise/are lazy/exercise in the wrong way. Weightlifters use wide waist belts because they are doing something that the body is NOT designed to do...eg. ego problems!
Hightop sports shoes promote weakness and stop you from walking correctly.
Wrap a sports injury because we think that we have a right to do what we want when we want! You should be listening to your body and let it heal itself. Rushed healing processes result in more injuries.
REI recommend those boots because they want to sell them to you and make a profit. Regardless of the fact that boots also promote weakness in your lower legs and do absolutely nothing to 'support' your ankles.
"The human foot is a masterpiece of engineering and a work of art." - Leonardo da Vinci
This guy knew his stuff.
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I'm with Brad on this one and most "ones". Great post. People do not realize that you have probably made more bows than all of us put together. You can tell your story, if you choose, I don't want to embarrass you anymore than I probably already will. :)
What I like about your posts is that you seem to understand the human element in this activity of ours. Imperfect people make imperfect bows. We are all imperfect. You correct but you never judge.
I remember years ago I mentioned that I thought bend in the handle bows had lots of hand shock. You set me straight on that one, LOL, and you were right. Bend in the handle bows are great shooters when tillered properly.
My aim is to help others make bows, too, Brad, and to be supportive to those who are starting out. We both started making bows long before there was an internet and so we remember how difficult it was in our beginning efforts...and so we offer gentle suggestions so people can get that first shooter.
I wish I had this forum when I started.
Making wooden bows is often about solving problems and making decisions.
Thanks, Brad.
Jawge
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George, Brad very well said gentlemen and I applaud you both.
rich
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A 'weak' back is due to using it incorrectly. Nobody is born with a weak back they don't exercise/are lazy/exercise in the wrong way. Weightlifters use wide waist belts because they are doing something that the body is NOT designed to do...eg. ego problems!
Hightop sports shoes promote weakness and stop you from walking correctly.
Wrap a sports injury because we think that we have a right to do what we want when we want! You should be listening to your body and let it heal itself. Rushed healing processes result in more injuries.
REI recommend those boots because they want to sell them to you and make a profit. Regardless of the fact that boots also promote weakness in your lower legs and do absolutely nothing to 'support' your ankles.
wow mike I usually agree with your posts but you pretty much missed on every crass generalization that you made, some people are born with bad backs, your three reasons for bad backs are just a small percentage of folks with bad backs, your not a basketball player either as those hi tops do prevent injury when I was a kid all we wore were chuck Taylor's with no support rolled my ankles all the time, I grew up riding bulls, saddle bronc and steer wrestling and doing a ton of things ya aren't built to do and none of that is why I needed both knees replaced before 50
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That's because Mike is part of the doctrine police group that roam here to shoot down any new threat to the clique's beliefs, sometimes losing rational in a deperate attempt to put someone in their place, and why many people no longer participate here.
You splint or wrap a weak area, reinforcing it, in order to move stress somewhere else, obviously. We'll flood a knot or crack with superglue and that seems to be ok but if we wrap the same crack with sinew then we are somehow pathetic?
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Personally, I think familiarity with a variety of materials and techniques to save, repair, rework, refinish and such are all part of being a bowyer. But so is understanding when something can be saved and when attempting to do so will be time wasted. That said, there are countless lessons to be found in failed attempts, and first hand experience is the best way to learn what works and what doesn’t. Open communication with other bowyers can help, but my best mentors, while a great help, always allowed me plenty of room to fall down… and right myself :^)
Jayman, I will try to answer your question regarding different “forms of weak spots” and success with the wooden patches.
I have had good success so far with the wooden patches as described by Dean Torges, but I’ve been quite discriminating about if and where I use them. In my opinion, there are qualifiers that can largely determine their degree of success… and failure.
First, as noted, they must be executed flawlessly. Dean is likely the most meticulous, and discerning bowyer I know, so yeah, they tend to work for him :^)
Second, not all chrysals and frets are created by the same means, and whether or not this type of wooden patch will be an effective complete fix depends on them to some extent.
Let’s take a single fret across part or most of the width of the limb for instance. It could be the weakest single spot where the belly caved in, in the middle of an ‘area’ of weakness, say, 3 - 4” long or more. A hinge doesn’t hinge at a single point, it’s a weak ‘area’… with the fret(when a single fret is the result) happening at the weakest point within that area. Now, grinding out the fret and say 3/4” to either side of it in the process and perfectly executing the ‘Torges patch’ is effectively grinding out only the center of a larger weak, compacted area, and so is not assuring a complete fix. These are the patches that are more prone to try to push out, lift at the edges, fret to either side of the patch, etc. Much depends though, and in the end, even if executed flawlessly, sometimes they WILL work, sometimes they’ll work for a while and then fail, and sometimes they just don’t last worth a darn.
But on the other hand, this same wooden patch technique has much better success, and can affect a trusted, long term fix if the fret starts say, at a small knot or remnants of one… or something similarly specific, isolated, with otherwise uncompromised wood(not overly thinned or compressed) in ‘the area’. The more of the root cause the grinding removes, the greater its chance of success. Ideally, we grind it ALL out and the patch on such an occasion will put good wood against good wood all around it and we can continue as planned. Fixed…. Every bit, good working limb.
Also, I try to match the wood in the patch to the wood in the repair area as far as, quarter sawn to quarter sawn for instance, same ring size and density, moisture content, even use wood from the same tree if possible.
Now, multiple chrysals over a larger area? That’s beyond the scope of the wooden patch. Unless the chrysalling was caused by overly thinning of an area or improper tillering techniques, then it is likely due to inappropriate design for the wood species used and I would drop it and start another with the needed changes… but that’s me.
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That's because Mike is part of the doctrine police group that roam here to shoot down any new threat to the clique's beliefs, sometimes losing rational in a deperate attempt to put someone in their place, and why many people no longer participate here.
You splint or wrap a weak area, reinforcing it, in order to move stress somewhere else, obviously. We'll flood a knot or crack with superglue and that seems to be ok but if we wrap the same crack with sinew then we are somehow pathetic?
Sounds like a bunch of thin skinned folks could use a rawhide wrapping.
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I like that idea, ,I felt a little fretted lately,, :)
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Protecting a bow on the tension side is a time proven method but there is nothing you can do to save a bow when it's starting to fail in compression. Sinew or rawhide are elastic but they just don't have the compression strength and it's the same with glues. But you know if it makes you feel better then go for it.
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That's because Mike is part of the doctrine police group that roam here to shoot down any new threat to the clique's beliefs, sometimes losing rational in a deperate attempt to put someone in their place, and why many people no longer participate here.
You splint or wrap a weak area, reinforcing it, in order to move stress somewhere else, obviously. We'll flood a knot or crack with superglue and that seems to be ok but if we wrap the same crack with sinew then we are somehow pathetic?
Seriously you've got me way,way wrong there my friend.
I said that stuff because I spend almost my whole time barefoot. I know what i'm talking about because it's all firsthand personal experience. I am happy to debate ANY of the points I raise in a friendly manner with anybody. If you feel that I am wrong that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree ;)
The only point I would change is where I said that nobody is born with a weak back. That was a gross generalisation. I should have said that a 'weak back' is used as an excuse for how some people have lived their lives up until the point where they thought their back was weak and used it as an excuse. My real point is that the vast majority of people nowadays think that by buying/using this/that (normally heavily marketed) product they will automatically become something they are not. This is linked into this thread by people thinking oh it's ok i'll be able to 'fix' it if I make a mistake. Whereas the best way to attack bowmaking is slowly, slowly until you develop your 'eye' then you can speed up a little if that's what you want to do. Due to the nature of what we are making (a 90% broken stick) there really can't be many flaws in it or else it will, at some point, go bang! Therefore in my eyes a chrysal is the end and not really worth trying to fix....however to get to this point of thinking I too have tried a few different things to fix them....
So I suppose my answer should be sure try to fix it - it will teach you something if nothing else! Learn by your own mistakes and plough your own furrow!
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I feel the same way you do Mike, if something goes wrong in a bow build be it a mistake or a bad choice of wood I no longer bother with a repair. I never have any good feelings about a patched up bow.