Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: iangriffin on March 01, 2015, 10:14:26 am
-
Hi
I'm Ian from from bolton UK. I make laminated bows. I don't use any glass or carbon fibre. I only use ash, maple and white oak at present. My bows are 64ins long, pyramid limbs. The limbs are made from 5 lams normally in the order of ash - maple - oak - maple - oak. The limbs are set into the handle with the top limb set at 4ins forward (reflex but not curved) and the bottom limb at 3ins. This makes the bow asymmetric, making its very smooth and fast. After tillering the limb tips have a slight (1 inch deflex ). I made this bow for myself. I like bows with 80- 100lbs draw weight at 28in draw length. I draw the bow with a ''getting into the bow method'' , commonly used by warbow users. The lams I cut from 60in x 4 x 2 ins and then sand them to size with a broad drum sander. Thereafter, everything is hand tools only. Its not pretty or graceful. It reminds me of a mini hand held balister. But it's very accurate and lets me use any weight of arrow between 400 - 900 grains. I prefer tonkin bamboo shafts. Being hollow they allow me vary the point weight as needed. Please comment (I have thick skin) . I'm having trouble posting pics. Will post them when I sort it out.
-
What is the draw weight on that particular bow? I like the way you have reflexed the limbs in the handle. That seems like a lot of weight for that configuration.
-
The handle/limb configuration scares me, especially for a 80#-100# bow. At that weight a delamination could be very dangerous.
Can we see you at full draw to see how it bends and an unbraced pic.
-
Are you familiar with Ian Sturgess? He's from Bolton also, and you won't find many who can make heavy laminated bows (and shoot them) as well as he can. He's got an account on here under "Ian." (including the full stop) and should be able to help with various things.
Your bow looks very unique - would have to see it at full draw to really get a good idea though.
-
Thanks for the questions, here are the answers:
Wills - I don't know Ian Sturgess, but I will certainly try and contact him asap. More pics will follow soon.
Pat - B I have practised drawing and shooting this 50-60 times without incident, so far so good. I have also used the same limbs in a short flatbow without a problem. But, a long term test (6 months of regular shooting, approx 1300 arrows has not been done yet.)
ajooter - this bow draws at 80lbs at 28ins. Allow a bit of temperature. I should also mention that during tillering, my long string broke at 135lbs at 16ins. With no damage to the bow. But I had to change my underwear. Please, can someone tell me if there is an better way to answer questions.
-
Welcome to pa.. :)
Not sure what to think of that handle configuration ??? Kinda scares me too to be honest...what kinda glue did ya use?
-
Alright Ian great to see you on here and I look forward to seeing more of your bows. 80-100!?! :o that's a right little rocket launcher! Big up Bolton! :D
-
Sorry, but I think this is too serious to not point it out clearly: If you intend shooting this bow, you will be endangered and so will be those standing around you!
As Pat says: this is a scary configuration.
Even if the glue lines were perfect - which they are not - they would not have enough surface to hold together in the fadeouts and the handle layout will reduce that surface evenmore. Even for a light weight bow I would not consider this save. The square extra piece in the handle I hold for the most fragile part of the construction. Remember the limbs will work as levers on these glue surfaces - evenmore with the set back and the glue pockets in the voids will not hold up!
Why not laminates of one piece running trough the handle? With set back glued in? Even then the glued on handle block must have an invisible glue line! To achieve that I would laminate thin strips to build up the riser.
I marked the spots that I consider dangerous:
-
Hi medicinewheel
Thanks for your input. Initially, I felt the same way as you. But I'm using newbie logic, which may be wrong. Thats why I'm here. This is the first of its kind, mistakes have been made. First mistake, rounding the limb edges before assembly. This produced some of the poor joints you rightly mentioned. The solution is assemble first. The other poor joints are newbie mistakes and will be fixed with more practise. Time will tell whether the other dangers you mentioned are justified. I use tb3 glue. I've seen it demonstrated on youtube, the wood on a joint breaks before the glue does. So broadly speaking, the glue welds the wood together. So in effect the handle becomes a solid piece. In my earlier reply post, I spoke about an incident when my tillering string broke. It seems to support my logic. Again my newbie logic may be wrong. As regards endangering other people. If the bow breaks, it will make a big bang, maybe snap in two. But I don't agree that it will shower everyone around me with shrapnel. But if my wood welding logic is wrong, who knows what will happen? But please, I value all input, it can only help me.
-
The glue may be stronger than the wood around it (most wood glues are) but it's the amount of bending that will make it break eventually. If you put 135# onto the bow with a long string (and you said the string broke at 16") that's nowhere near the amount of bend that will happen at full draw. It's not about the weight the glue join can withstand, it's the force against the two pieces sandwiching your limbs at full draw. Every inch you increase the draw length by, the limbs will be trying harder to break free from those two back and belly pieces.
It might be able to take 300lbs at 16", but that doesn't mean it will be able to take 50lbs at 30". Exaggerated example, but hopefully you'll see my point. You could take a really knotty, gnarly piece of English yew for instance and put it on a tiller without roughing it out much. It would easily take 150lbs say if you pulled on it, but once it's down to 30" and bending really hard it's likely to explode at a knot because you're asking the wood to do too much.
-
... I use tb3 glue. I've seen it demonstrated on youtube, the wood on a joint breaks before the glue does. So broadly speaking, the glue welds the wood together. So in effect the handle becomes a solid piece.
... As regards endangering other people. If the bow breaks, it will make a big bang, maybe snap in two. But I don't agree that it will shower everyone around me with shrapnel.
...
Not the glue itself but the (properly made) glue joint is stronger than the wood. Bows fail at glue pockets and for glueing surfaces being to small. No matter what glue is used.
We talk about a bow of a draw weight of 80 to 100", right!? It might not shower people with shrapnel but I believe if it comes apart it will do with zero warning, most likely the limbs will rip out from the handle block and snap back at you, or the guy next to you. Eventually.
-
PS: Welcome to PA!
-
I don't think it's possible to design a bow better that will come apart at full draw unexpectedly. If you want to lift a large flat rock you stick a pry bar under it and bear down. That's essentially what you have going on here.
-
Hi medicinewheel
I explained about my poor joints and thoroughly agree. As per my last post. Please define eventually. One of my bows is a grozer 50lbs bio-composite assyrian style. Its my second one of these. The first one blew the core near the fades after 10 months. So do you think it would help if I put in a couple oak pegs through the handle joints?
Hi PatM I don't quite understand your pry bar analogy. I would say its more like a fishing rod. Though not as bendy. The joints on heavy duty fishing rods are not even glued. Perhaps, I am barking up the wrong tree with this bow design. Please, don't think I'm smart ass newbie. I just need things to explained in words I can understand and see the logic. If someone would honestly tell me they've built something similar and it ended badly. I would drop the design in a trice.
-
A fishing rod has what is called "hoop strength". You just have intersecting planes.
-
That is scarey. Im not sure Id feel safe within 5-6 meters of that drawn, no matter the draw weight. Sorry for my honesty, if it bothers you. When you see bows made with much more robust configurations explode, you learn what doesn't work fast.
-
Holy cow. You have some serious design flaw issues, including glue lines with gaps. TB3 is not tolerant of your gluing methods. I can't in good conscience approve of what you're doing, especially to the degree you're stressing this design!
This bow is not going to last. It will come apart, and likely in spectacular fashion. If you're going to make a bow with a non-bending handle, make the fade transitions gradual. Wow. I really don't know what to say. That is scary.
-
My first bow was a red oak board bow. I was told on here the cons of gluing on a handle of rigid wood. Being that I knew more than the combined knowledge of everyone here >:D I did it anyway. The handle section finally did break. The glue joint broke half way through the handle, and the wood of the handle section broke diagonally from the belly of the bow, to the end of the handle. What I learned is this: there are reasons things are done in a certain manner, and why they are not. I have far less experience than the combined knowledge of the members of this group. If you have 5 people telling you it is a bad idea, it more than likely is. Swallow your pride and get back to building. No one likes to be told that their ideas are not good ones. The best minds in the world are able to take what people tell them is wrong, and make it right. Good luck on the next one.
-
Hi wills
Thanks for the input. I have used this design of limb in a short flatbow. It was 60ins. It turned badly because I did'nt know to taper the core. It had big hinges at the fades. Truely horrible to see. I've' shot about 70-80 arrows with it. Apart from the hinge problem it still works. The flatbow's handle was 7ins. The handle on this new bow takes 4 ins off the combined limbs. So I've got an extra 3ins to play with, to justify the reflex setting. This again may be newbie logic. I must say that I have not extensively tested (1000- 1500 arrows) either of my 80-100lbs bows yet. Please do'nt think I 'm being disrespectful to people with much more experience than me. I'am just trying to understand things. I contacted Ian., he lives in a different bolton to me, 4 hours driving apart. But he seems very friendly and helpful in his PMs, we swapped.
Hi PEARL DRUMS - Thanks for your post. The vast majority agrees with you.
Hi PatM - Agreed about the hoop strength. Giving the rod more strength and the ability to bend in any direction. I only need 2 directions. Please, I am struggling to understand the logic. My reply is not meant to be impolite.
-
Also, this isn't about right and wrong. it is about safe or not.
-
...
Please define eventually. One of my bows is a grozer 50lbs bio-composite assyrian style. Its my second one of these. The first one blew the core near the fades after 10 months. So do you think it would help if I put in a couple oak pegs through the handle joints?
...
Eventually here means: miracles do happen! If this bow holds up I would call that a miracle. But even if it holds for a thousand shots I will stay away when you pull it.
Nothing I can say about that Grozer bow, can't see the relation between it and the handle design discussed in this thread.
And NO! ...pegs won't help.
Again: everyone closer than 10 meters when you pull that bow is endangered to be hit in the head by a limb breaking free from that glue joint. The bow will break and it will more likely than not do so in a spectacular manner!
-
Frankly I'd like to this contraption drawn
-
... I have used this design of limb in a short flatbow....
Nobody here has mentioned anything about your limb design, we talk about a handle construction that is going to fail. I really don't know what can possibly be difficult to understand here. Even for a newbie. Impossible handle design, bad glue joints, not enough clueing surface.
-
Frankly I'd like to this contraption drawn
Me too.
-
Thanks for the input. I have used this design of limb in a short flatbow. It was 60ins. It turned badly because I did'nt know to taper the core. It had big hinges at the fades. Truely horrible to see.
Yes, I would think a bow of this design would be very badly hinged right at the transition from the handle to the limb. It doesn't look to me like you have much width or thickness taper, so that's where it's going to bend.
Also, some people do, but it's not necessary to taper the core.
I would also like to see this bow at full draw. I think I might even duck just looking at the picture, but let's have a look.
-
here is my .02 cents worth.. i also am a newbie..
if this many experienced bowyers were telling me what i was doing was dangerous to myself and others i would stop... listen... and understand these people have either seen someone hurt by a faulty design or have themselves been hurt by a exploding bow...
just my opinion and worth every penny it cost you... but i would pay close attention to what they're telling you
-
For the next bow you make, strive for smooth and tapering transitions from grip to fade... kinda like this...
And tight glue joints... with no gaps.
-
It's funny how the picture of the handle actually makes you feel slightly queasy. It's like looking at an old bridge that someone is determined to cross.
-
First off welcome aboard! It may not seem like much of a welcome, but these fellas are thinking of your best interests. I won't reiterate what has already been said. I do agree with the warnings that have been posted however. I hope you understand that no one is picking on you. They're just trying to make sure that you'll be around to make bows in the future. Josh
-
hiya ian just noticed your from bolton.(which one) im from bolton in greater manchester.
-
Hi All
Let me tell you my logic behind this Bow. I am very traditional and refuse to use synthetic materials or build a bow with an arrow rest. I wish to build a bow to compete in Field Archery. FNAS Barebow class. I don't want to build an ELB or an AFB because all they are in a separate class to recurves. I want to compete against the recurves. But Olympic recurves have advantages. Like arrow rests, light weight arrows, sights, stabilisers and are fast. I want a bow that is fairly short (I'm only 5ft 6ins). It should be as fast or faster than Olympics. As I can pull 110lbs for 80-100 arrows in 2 hours (Kassai bear110 Magyar). Distances 30, 50, and 70mtrs. So I can try and offset their speed with a heavier draw weight at 28ins. My bamboo arrows will also help with the speed and accuracy. I don't much care for a rounded handle. My bow handle is flat at the back (with rounded corners). This helps to give a very steady bow hand with the extra weight I can comfortably pull. Reflex/deflex bows are not allowed. I like to use a thumbring but they are'nt allowed either. An asymmetric bow gives speed and no/very little hand shock, according to Grozer. How about we put heads together and come up with a bow. I have woods ash maple and white oak, each plank is 60x2x4ins. I have a 12inch table saw, a broad drum sander, tillering jig and enough hand saws, files/rasps, rasps and planes to sink a battle ship ( perhaps a small one). The speed limit for bows/arrows 300 ft/sec. So I doubt that will bother us. I am open to any sort of deal. If we use a committee, I don't have to be on it. So come on you've told what not to do. NOW tell me what right to do?
-
Hi danny F - It would be great to meet up soon. I live in Farnworth. Please PM some details so we can meet. I buy crickets for my Tarantulas from Plodder pets. Mike the owner told me about a bowyer who gets snakeskin backings from him. Could this be you?
-
There are an almost infinite number of bows and build-alongs right here on this forum. Enough to hold you captive for months. Do some searching and you'll find good examples of whatever type of bow you want to make. Do your own research and reading as well. That's how most of us got started! I've already given you a suggestion on how to improve your fades and grip transitions.
-
The first "RIGHT" thing to do is listen you can have the handle any shape you want, but the fades need a SMOOTH transition into the limbs thats one, if you have a drum sander then everything should be a good tight fit before glueup and i would use innertubes for clamps, the way you did the linb attachment is god awful and should join at the center qof the bow with a splice , a little research will yield most of your answers
-
Hi Ian,
I admire your enthusiasm. I think lots of us have had big ambitions at various points in our personal bow making histories. I also second Gun Docs words that you shouldn't take the responses here personally –many of us have experience with bows exploding, and it can be very dangerous. Hopefully folks are thinking about your safety first and then adding some good bow making advice as well.
What you’re asking for … ‘a short bow, made using no synthetic materials, fast or faster than Olympic recurves…,’ is a tall order. It’s even taller when you include some other criteria many of work towards like durability. There are a number of designs that could meet those criteria, but the key is not only design, but execution.. meaning the process of shaping and tillering the bow properly. And that takes a lot of practice, and trial and error, and often frustration. I would advise you to search through the build alongs on this site (see ‘How Too’s and Build Alongs’), and plan to spend a lot of time on making your own prototypes. But keep your original goal and check in as you go to see if you are getting closer.
Good luck,
Gabe
-
hiya mate yes thats me, i live a few minutes from the petshop. if you go through my posts you will see the snakskin backed bow, i havent been making any recently as i have been busy with other stuff, but will sort something out one day. its a small world eh😄
-
Hi All
Let me tell you my logic behind this Bow. I am very traditional and refuse to use synthetic materials or build a bow with an arrow rest. I wish to build a bow to compete in Field Archery. FNAS Barebow class. I don't want to build an ELB or an AFB because all they are in a separate class to recurves. I want to compete against the recurves. But Olympic recurves have advantages. Like arrow rests, light weight arrows, sights, stabilisers and are fast. I want a bow that is fairly short (I'm only 5ft 6ins). It should be as fast or faster than Olympics. As I can pull 110lbs for 80-100 arrows in 2 hours (Kassai bear110 Magyar). Distances 30, 50, and 70mtrs. So I can try and offset their speed with a heavier draw weight at 28ins. My bamboo arrows will also help with the speed and accuracy. I don't much care for a rounded handle. My bow handle is flat at the back (with rounded corners). This helps to give a very steady bow hand with the extra weight I can comfortably pull. Reflex/deflex bows are not allowed. I like to use a thumbring but they are'nt allowed either. An asymmetric bow gives speed and no/very little hand shock, according to Grozer. How about we put heads together and come up with a bow. I have woods ash maple and white oak, each plank is 60x2x4ins. I have a 12inch table saw, a broad drum sander, tillering jig and enough hand saws, files/rasps, rasps and planes to sink a battle ship ( perhaps a small one). The speed limit for bows/arrows 300 ft/sec. So I doubt that will bother us. I am open to any sort of deal. If we use a committee, I don't have to be on it. So come on you've told what not to do. NOW tell me what right to do?
None of these "needs" have anything to do with what you've produced though.
-
Hi All
Let me tell you my logic behind this Bow. I am very traditional and refuse to use synthetic materials or build a bow with an arrow rest. I wish to build a bow to compete in Field Archery. FNAS Barebow class. I don't want to build an ELB or an AFB because all they are in a separate class to recurves. I want to compete against the recurves. But Olympic recurves have advantages. Like arrow rests, light weight arrows, sights, stabilisers and are fast. I want a bow that is fairly short (I'm only 5ft 6ins). It should be as fast or faster than Olympics. As I can pull 110lbs for 80-100 arrows in 2 hours (Kassai bear110 Magyar). Distances 30, 50, and 70mtrs. So I can try and offset their speed with a heavier draw weight at 28ins. My bamboo arrows will also help with the speed and accuracy. I don't much care for a rounded handle. My bow handle is flat at the back (with rounded corners). This helps to give a very steady bow hand with the extra weight I can comfortably pull. Reflex/deflex bows are not allowed. I like to use a thumbring but they are'nt allowed either. An asymmetric bow gives speed and no/very little hand shock, according to Grozer. How about we put heads together and come up with a bow. I have woods ash maple and white oak, each plank is 60x2x4ins. I have a 12inch table saw, a broad drum sander, tillering jig and enough hand saws, files/rasps, rasps and planes to sink a battle ship ( perhaps a small one). The speed limit for bows/arrows 300 ft/sec. So I doubt that will bother us. I am open to any sort of deal. If we use a committee, I don't have to be on it. So come on you've told what not to do. NOW tell me what right to do?
None of these "needs" have anything to do with what you've produced though.
Exactly.
-
NOW tell me what right to do?
ok , if your back lamination was 3/16 thick and was continuous from nock to nock, the design might not seem so iffy. your bow hand is providing all the bending force right at the center of the bow with the interrupted laminations. something substantial has to takethe tension of the back to keep the bow together.
-
There yah go... there's a good start. Good advice. The bows back should be one continuous growth ring for a self bow, or a continuous, straight grained, tension strong piece for a laminate. Day one of bow school! With some very basic reading and research, you'll discover this and more basic concepts of good, no non-sense bow making. I encourage you to continue on your road to discovery. Jawge has an excellent website to help new guys. Check it out.
-
You could take this bow and make it a lot safer by adding a 1/4" strip of wood to the belly side of handle and then doing a close wrap of strong cord like nylon mason's line or bow thread around the ends of the handle and limbs the full length of the upper limbs butt splice which looks like about 3 inches. As most have explained your short butt splices are a bad idea but with a reenforced handle and cord wrap it will not break!!!! Or do like I did with an oak take down with 1/2 " x 35 " oak limbs and over lapped a hickory handle 3 inches and use two 1/4 inch carriage bolts and some fender washers and wing nuts to secure the limb to the handle. cheers fiddler49
-
You could take this bow and make it a lot safer by adding a 1/4" strip of wood to the belly side of handle and then doing a close wrap of strong cord like nylon mason's line or bow thread around the ends of the handle and limbs the full length of the upper limbs butt splice which looks like about 3 inches. As most have explained your short butt splices are a bad idea but with a reenforced handle and cord wrap it will not break!!!! ...
Wrong: it will break with whatever wrapping you'll apply to it.
Ian don't seem to be ready to accept this inescapable fact so please don't encourage him to continue in any way with this bow just to make him feel better. Even with bolts as you describe: not with that handle construction, not with gaps like that in the glue line, not with that draw weight.
-
Yes frank if he doesn't increase the thickness of the belly side and just wraps it then it will likely break but if he thickens up the handle to even 3/8 " or 1/2 " of hard wood and wraps at least three inches it will not break.
cheers fiddler49
-
Fiddler, I can't see what the thickness on the belly side has to do with it.
The bow will break towards the backside cause the limbs will lever the short butt joints out of the faulty construction of the whole handle area. You're encouraging Ian to keep trying, and it will still be dangerous nonetheless!
-
Frank, using fast flite or Dynema with a breaking strength of 70 lbs you could put a hundred turns around the joint, close wrapped, which in theory would take 7,000 lbs to break! You don't even need glue, just two 1/4" wood dowels through handle and limb to keep left/right limb orientation or even two small round pebbles into holes between limb and handle to act as keys to prevent limb twist. The belly side of handle needs to be thick enough to handle the leverage of the limb against it. I agree that his is not a very good way to build a bow
but it could be made safer with a strong wrap! cheers fiddler49
-
I agree with Frank. No handle wrap is going to fix this bow. It would be like putting a Band-Aid on an axe wound.
-
Hi all
I wish to thank everyone who commented on my post. I have decided that despite the negative
words, I do believe are true, to a large degree. That I shall carry on with my bow design. As I look at my Kassai and Grozer bows, they both have limbs set at a reflex angle. True, they both have glass/ fibre elements. All of the positives I will build into my next bow. I have absolutely no axe to grind with anyone. I will post again, when I have something to show. Winston Churchill had a hobby, building walls on his estate. His work was dreadful. When a friend pointed this out he said, ''Any fool can see whats wrong with it. But can You see whats right with it?'' The point I'm making is that only a friend would deliver the bad news.
Regards Ian.
Regards Ian
-
You can set limbs at a reflex angle properly as well. The design and execution of the design are two separate things.
-
If you want to compete with the glass recurve guys, you want to do it in style! Not with a bow that has a half kilometer of cord wrapped around it holding it together at the grip, that's ugly. You have the right idea, just execute it a bit better next time around.
-
Hi Ian its nice to see someone else from the North of England. I hope that you do keep posting. I'm just starting out (on bow number 3) I made a design error my first bow (should probably say stick) because I miss read a line in the book I was following, started the fade closer to the handle than the flare. I didn't post here but on a similar forum, and got lots of replies like "boom" ;D. It was hard to read when I had been working on it for months, but importantly they weren't wrong. I'm still making stupid mistakes, but haven't made the same one twice. I think you did really well to get it as far as you did, I'd have to get on the shreddies to even draw 100#. I'd move on to the next one and if you want to be innovative in the design post here first and get some constructive feedback.
-
Is there no school or churchyard Yew branches that needs to be trimmed in your area?
Welcome to PA, don't be discouraged but do be careful.
Cheers. ;)
-
Ian, ple---laezzzze, nobody commented negatively about your bow, nobody commented the design: it's just the handle that is as wrong as can be, and is dangerous for you and those standing around when you pull it. The limbs will flip back at you or others. And the limbs will do so with zero warning and with tremendous energy. Your overall idea of the design will work no problem. Try another with the laminates running nock to nock. And ask for help here. Tons of good advice.
I made like 100 successful bows and I certainly am one of the lesser experienced guys on PA. This here is knowledge bounty.
Take this as my last word on this thread.
And again: welcome to PA!
-
Hi PatM - On 2 previous posts I have admitted that my joints were poor. So please stop now. To me it sounds like a song sheet that most people are singing on the hour every hour. Its boring. Having admitted my joints were poor twice in different posts that should be enough. I got the design idea late one night, scribbled it down. I started build it the following day, As the bow came together. I made the bad mistake of getting giddy and throwing it together. I came on this forum get good advise I got that from many people. I am Happy on this forum. I not only respect everyone, I appreciate and am taking the advise given. All the advise will be built into my next bow. The joints will be up to a much better standard and will be increased from 2ins to 3/5ins. I would say that the danger is not as big or bad as some people think. The analogy about a pry bar is totally wrong. From full draw, bow limbs generate a turning force, i.e. Torque and not linear. The pivot point is spread out amongst the total glued area of both limbs and not a point at all. Having said that, I am increasing the total glued area with more length and better joints.I doubt that my next bow will be the answer to a maidens prayer, but, it will be significantly better in all ways. Thanks to the people on this forum.
Pearl drums - Both Kassai and Grozer bind the joints on their bows. I think it looks great on their bows. But my Bow is different and I agree with you completely.
DaveMac - Please PM me and let me know where you are, maybe we can meet up sometime. As regards pulling a 100lbs bow. Its not as difficult as you think. You did not say how long you've been shooting and with what power of bows. If you use your whole body its not so bad. I've only been shooting for approx. 6 years. I am a short fat man who turned 62 yesterday.
Parnell - We used all our Yew 500 years ago. It used to be a law in England that all imports had to include a big quantity of Yew staves. Mores the pity as I live fairly close to a graveyard.
I do have a graveyard storey. I used to make thumbrings from solid bone. When unwanted visitors asked where I got the bone. I would point to and say the graveyard and look at them sideways (like the Terminator). Of course I got them from my local pet shop, (bones for dogs). Not everyone believed me, but, they did'nt stay long after that.
-
Knock yourself out.
-
That design in the handle is going to get someone hurt.
An extra inch of joinery won't make it safe.
To each their own and all. I'm all for good new ideas...but this one just isn't good.
You seem dead set to continue down this road.
I'm not trying to be funny here..but I'd suggest a full face helmet with good eye protection.
Whether you want to consider the force on the limbs as rotational or whatever..the FACT is ALL that force is anchored to the poorly designed handle.
It's not the bad glue lines that make me feel this way..it's the design itself.
I really don't like being harsh or critical to people..but when safety is the concern I'll speak up.
I hope you don't hurt yourself or others.
I also hope you'll keep having fun building these things and I'm looking forward to seeing other "out of the box" ideas.
Take care
John
-
Hi Ian, welcome to PA! It sounds like slot of harsh critism but everyone is only trying to help. We all made out first bow. Some a lot better than others. MOST people aren't trying to put ya down. Certainly not trying to deter u from building bows. Consider it harsh guidance. These fellas know just about everything ya could ask. In a collective u will never beat the knowledge located in this forum. No one wants to see ya get hurt! The handle is sketchy, it's a lot of trust in a less than perfect glue line to hold a lot of leverage. Think of trying to move a log, can't do it. Wedge a stick under it and u gain the leverage. That leverage has a very high chance of prying your handle design apart. Laminations should run from tip to tip for best results. Maybe u can make a design like u planned using bolt on limbs, like a 3 piece takedown. U cannot compare wood and glass bows. Apples to oranges. The stuff glass can do I don't believe wood will ever. So again were not trying to dissuade u of ur design, just letting u know the flaws we see and some help on the next go. If u taper ur laminations almost like a glass bow before glue up u can get it to some more radical bends in glue up. So u can make the laminations run throughout the bow. And get more the shape u desire
-
.
Parnell - We used all our Yew 500 years ago.
Nope. Still plenty of fantastic English yew available in the UK. Graveyards are still full of it, as are gardens, parks, stately homes, river banks, cliffs... It's everywhere. You can drive down some A roads down here on the South coast and lose count of them. Not all of it is suitable, but with so much it's not hard to get good stuff.
Ian, as a quick word of advice - these guys are telling you that the design is flawed, not in need of tweaking. When this much experience looks at a bow design and says it won't work, it's worth taking heed. Adding an inch or two to those joints won't change the way it functions. I'd recommend changing design completely, but that's up to you. This place is packed with supportive experts who will guide you through making bows, but you have to be able to accept when they say a design is fundamentally flawed.
If you remember recently when you posted your bows on Archery Interchange, there were lots of members criticising your tillering and understanding of terminology (hinges for instance) on bows that you were selling on eBay. Perhaps (and I mean this in the best possible way) it's worth addressing that stuff first and getting the hang of making simple bows well, before trying to reinvent the wheel somewhat.
-
"To me it sounds like a song sheet that most people are singing on the hour every hour. Its boring."
You heard what the man said.
Not often a man of 62 comes across as a "you can't tell me differently" teenager but there you have it.
-
Fellas.....you're kicking a dead horse here. Can't you see that he has bulled up? If he didn't get the memo in the first 3 pages, he's not going to. He's just going to have to pee on this electric fence for himself. To be honest, if I were him and just learning the ropes, I would probably react the same way. Think back to your first success in making a bow that actually shot that first arrow. Man...what a high that was! I still remember the pride and self satisfaction of a job well done. I look back at it now and shake my head. What piece of junk that thing was, but at the time if someone would started picking it apart and trying to explain how to improve the next one, I would of been disheartened to say the least. If there would have been an internet back then, I could have easily been the one staring at the screen with my fingers in my ears, saying, "nah nah nah I'm not listening to you!" I'm not saying that is a proper response just an understandable one. I know some of you are thinking that your not going to waste your time offering advice to him in the future because of this. That isn't right either. Lets just let it be. He hasn't been on here long enough to get a feel for the good intentions offered. If he sticks with it (and avoids serious injury) he'll look back at this and understand. Best of luck to you Ian. I sincerely mean that. Josh
-
Fellas.....you're kicking a dead horse here. Can't you see that he has bulled up? If he didn't get the memo in the first 3 pages, he's not going to. He's just going to have to pee on this electric fence for himself. To be honest, if I were him and just learning the ropes, I would probably react the same way. Think back to your first success in making a bow that actually shot that first arrow. Man...what a high that was! I still remember the pride and self satisfaction of a job well done. I look back at it now and shake my head. What piece of junk that thing was, but at the time if someone would started picking it apart and trying to explain how to improve the next one, I would of been disheartened to say the least. If there would have been an internet back then, I could have easily been the one staring at the screen with my fingers in my ears, saying, "nah nah nah I'm not listening to you!" I'm not saying that is a proper response just an understandable one. I know some of you are thinking that your not going to waste your time offering advice to him in the future because of this. That isn't right either. Lets just let it be. He hasn't been on here long enough to get a feel for the good intentions offered. If he sticks with it (and avoids serious injury) he'll look back at this and understand. Best of luck to you Ian. I sincerely mean that. Josh
Josh is right here. Some years ago I posted a Google Sketch-Up drawing of a very similar design. I got the same responses of "Please Don't - You'll hurt yourself if you try". Fortunately, I never made the bow. I still have the drawings and I still kinda wanna try it. >:D ::) ::) :o It stung a bit to be told not to try something I had envisioned and imagineered so carefully only to be waved off from the attempt. I've learned a good deal since then, but I might not have if you guys hadn't re-directed my thinking on it.
OneBow
-
I don't think this bow is as far gone as many of you believe. It does look really bad at first glance, and I had the same reaction as most of you at first. Then as I got thinking about just exactly what was wrong with it, something came to mind. Its really close, geometrically speaking, to a 3 piece takedown.
If you put a couple bolts through the back of the limbs where they affix to the handle and put some nuts and washers on them like a 3-piece takedown, then I think that would make this bow safe. That is if the tiller is good, especially right out of handle.
Even with a good solid glue line (which you do not have in this particular case), I would not trust it to hold against the leverage of the limbs especially at that draw weight. Yes a perfect glue line is supposed to be much stronger than the wood itself, but only in pure axial loading conditions. When you start applying stresses that do not fit these conditions (and bow limbs do not), then the strength of the glue line becomes suspect.
This particular bow is not remotely safe in its current state. That glue up is not up to the task based on the looks of it. And even a good glue up would be very very suspect in my opinion given the leverage and loading conditions present. Personally I would put some bolts through it, not just pins, but bolts with washers to spread out the holding power. You want holding power perpendicular to the limbs to keep them from lifting off the riser.
-
Hi slackbunny
Thanks for your input.
-
Ian,
You were looking for logical explanation as to the inefficiency of your design. Here's a simple illustration as to why the earlier "pry bar" analogy was apt. The stiff and abrupt handle transition, because it does not fade into a working, bending piece of the bow, acts as a fulcrum for the overall movement of the limb.
Let's look at this from the view of what you were trying to achieve when you came up with this design: distinctly reflexed limbs, correct? A safer, more efficient and effective way to achieve this is to glue up continuous laminations in the reflex shape. If someone could provide a link to a good build-along, that would be appreciated.
-
I don't think this bow is as far gone as many of you believe. It does look really bad at first glance, and I had the same reaction as most of you at first. Then as I got thinking about just exactly what was wrong with it, something came to mind. Its really close, geometrically speaking, to a 3 piece takedown.
If you put a couple bolts through the back of the limbs where they affix to the handle and put some nuts and washers on them like a 3-piece takedown, then I think that would make this bow safe. That is if the tiller is good, especially right out of handle.
Even with a good solid glue line (which you do not have in this particular case), I would not trust it to hold against the leverage of the limbs especially at that draw weight. Yes a perfect glue line is supposed to be much stronger than the wood itself, but only in pure axial loading conditions. When you start applying stresses that do not fit these conditions (and bow limbs do not), then the strength of the glue line becomes suspect.
This particular bow is not remotely safe in its current state. That glue up is not up to the task based on the looks of it. And even a good glue up would be very very suspect in my opinion given the leverage and loading conditions present. Personally I would put some bolts through it, not just pins, but bolts with washers to spread out the holding power. You want holding power perpendicular to the limbs to keep them from lifting off the riser.
Fiddler posted this idea already a few pages back.
-
With all the talk about Grozer and Kassai style bows why not just make one of those in wood?
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/IMG_1977_zps896db155.jpg)
-
I don't think this bow is as far gone as many of you believe. It does look really bad at first glance, and I had the same reaction as most of you at first. Then as I got thinking about just exactly what was wrong with it, something came to mind. Its really close, geometrically speaking, to a 3 piece takedown.
If you put a couple bolts through the back of the limbs where they affix to the handle and put some nuts and washers on them like a 3-piece takedown, then I think that would make this bow safe. That is if the tiller is good, especially right out of handle.
Even with a good solid glue line (which you do not have in this particular case), I would not trust it to hold against the leverage of the limbs especially at that draw weight. Yes a perfect glue line is supposed to be much stronger than the wood itself, but only in pure axial loading conditions. When you start applying stresses that do not fit these conditions (and bow limbs do not), then the strength of the glue line becomes suspect.
This particular bow is not remotely safe in its current state. That glue up is not up to the task based on the looks of it. And even a good glue up would be very very suspect in my opinion given the leverage and loading conditions present. Personally I would put some bolts through it, not just pins, but bolts with washers to spread out the holding power. You want holding power perpendicular to the limbs to keep them from lifting off the riser.
Fiddler posted this idea already a few pages back.
Oops,I guess I must have missed that.
-
Still whipping the horses eyes... Gun doc is completely right. The op knows what the consensus is. He just needs to get a bunch of em done, and then look back at that body of work. Not knowing what you don't know. We were all there once.
-
Hi all
My bow is on the backburner for the now. This means a long time. I would like to ask a question. Is it at all possible to join two limbs together for an 80lbs bow? If so how? Forget about my previous design.
Regards Ian
-
What do u need to join two limbs? Why can't ya just glue the whole shebang with full length limbs. If u wanna join two limbs use a takedown sleeve or a 3 piece takedown design. U can glue in reflex a lot easier I think I'll be happier with the outcome. Whatever ya decide. Post pics. We're here to help
-
Explain your reason for separate limbs.
-
Yes you can use a fishtail splice in the center of the bow and do a thin veneer over the splice and riser on belly side, there are lots of splices w z all will work, if you want to splice to get reflex i suggest you go thru Mark st Louis posts he builds some highly reflexed flight bows and hi performance type bows
-
When I was trying to do this is was because of the difficulty in finding lengths of quartersawn lumber that did not have excessive run out. I could readily enough find such at 3 - 4 feet long - but much less readily at lengths of 5 - 7 feet. I've no idea if this is Ian's issue, but it was what started me down the same road.
OneBow
-
Hi Guys
Thanks for the info. My reason is that I only have 5 foot lengths of 2 x 4. I had too high expectations in the beginning plus I can collect them in my car. I am nearly skint. Some posts told me that I'm expecting too much from the limbs on a short bow. I plan on dropping the ash backing. I read that maple makes a good backing. I have 2 lengths each of maple and oak. If I have to build a short bow, I'm thinking 4-5 mm of maple for the backing. The core will be 3mm maple ,1.5mm x 2 of oak, 3mm maple and 4mm oak for the belly. The assembly order will be maple+oak times 2. Tapering by scaper, 1 in 4 for the oak sides and 1 in 5 for the maple sides. If I'm happy with the tapering, Glue on back and belly. This is for a short bow with a shortish handle to give as much as possible working limb. If I can splice 2 of these limb. I will make a much longer bow with a bigger handle. I am very aware of making the fades smoothly blend in. Answer any way you feel correct. I promise no more tantrums.
-
5' is 60", u can swing it. If u made it more of a bendy handle I think itd work for ya, also where u tried gluing in reflex on the other bow, straight outta the handle, reflex is better at the tips. I'd make a form with some 2x4s. Put a 3/4" piece of wood in center and say 2" blocks under each tip, when u glue it wrap in old inner tubes and clamp in form in disired shape.
-
Not sure why you wouldn't just extend the tips as I showed since you seem to like that style.
-
PatM - I've gone through all your posts on this topic Can't find it. Are you saying I should think about fitting Syahs (spelt it wrong). I thought static help with extra leverage, but did not give as much as active bow tips. Whippy tips. Have I got it all mixed up again.
Blaflair2 - I've tried on other bows to dry glue some reflex in the tips, all my attempts failed. The curves went as hard as steel and then the bamboo backing snapped in the middle of the handle. So I built a steamer. Tried to steam bend the tips in a former I made. I put the whole stave in the steam for 30 mins at 85C. I didn't have enough holes in the box. The bow warped. Steam was coming out of the box under pressure. I got minor scalding on my shins and arms. Anyway, the bendier handle. Do you mean flow it smoother and longer into the limbs. Do you think I could make the handle out of ash?
-
There is a big picture a few posts back.
Static versus working comes down to which one is easier to achieve.
-
PatM - Seen it. I've planned on extra core tapering. So unless you reckon I'm on a sticky wicket again, I'm going ahead with what I've planned. You didn't mention the lam layout. Any probs there?
-
I never work with more than two laminations plus sinew so I can't comment on that.