Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: paco664 on February 21, 2015, 06:00:43 pm
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please don't make fun of my ignorance. but i read where Australian pine was supposedly suitable bow wood.
down here in south florida there isn't exactly a smorgasbord of choices.
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150221_164836.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150221_164836.jpg.html)
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I have been wondering about australian pine. If that one works I would try for a larger diameter on the next one. I know the species is invasive so it should be too hard to find larger specimens.
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I have been wondering about australian pine. If that one works I would try for a larger diameter on the next one. I know the species is invasive so it should be too hard to find larger specimens.
i have another thicker one... but that end in my hand measures 4.5" in diameter.. the other end is 5" exactly...
i have read that this is also known as sheoak and ironwood...
it was harder than calculus to cut... very very dense wood...
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I thought it was only about 1 1/2 looking at the pic, must be some kind of illusion makes it look smaller.
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I think he means circumference. It looks like 1 1/2" to me.
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I think he means circumference. It looks like 1 1/2" to me.
yes circumference.... it's been a long day... got up at 5am to work overtime... :-\
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It makes an excellent bow. Parnel and I have both made bows from it. And it has to be the toughest wood I've ever seen with interlocking grain from hell. I broke one o purpose just to see what it would take. The top limb folded over and I propped it against my work bench. When I came back 3 hours later it had gone back to it's form before it broke. I don't think you will have to worry about string follow.
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It is a very good bow wood. I made one quite a few years ago from a. pine.
Jawge
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sweet...
thank you guys for sharing the knowledge... that stuff grows like weeds here and finding ~6' lengths wrist thick is easy as pie...
now to let this stuff dry...
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If I get the time I want to try an ELB in the 70-80# range and cut one into boards and do a glue up.
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If I get the time I want to try an ELB in the 70-80# range and cut one into boards and do a glue up.
if ya do let me know. .. that would be worth the trip north to see!
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Watching this, I have a nice piece over my work bench Eddie[Mullet ] gave me a year or 2 ago. :)
Pappy
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I fiddled with it quite a bit when I started out. I'll recommend it, especially for your learning curve. I'd cut some saplings and throw them in your car to dry out quick then make some simple "native style" bows to get you tillering, etc.
In my experience it's this time of year to cut it. The bark will probably peel off in one strip with it not being the growing season. If you cut in the wet season it sticks to the wood and can be more of a pain to remove.
I don't think that it likes being recurved much and doesn't seem to respond to corrections...but, it isn't hard to find pipe straight stuff.
Follow the grain of the "rays" as close you can. I've had splinters pop off towards the tips where I've narrowed down. I really recommend making a very traditional type of SE native American bow with side nocks, bending through the handle, and not narrowing your tips that much. Keep it traditional. Much of the wood is over 1.0 in specific gravity and it can perform very impressively.
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The bark stripped of like a dream. . I rough shaped it a bit last night and I'm going to let it dry a bit more. ...
I'll follow your suggestion about the type of bow. .
A question. .. should i back it? And if so what would you suggest as backing material?
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Of all the woods in the world to make a bow from, Casuarina may very well be #1 for not needing to be backed. Look forward to seeing it.
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Of all the woods in the world to make a bow from, Casuarina may very well be #1 for not needing to be backed. Look forward to seeing it.
thanks!
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got it *(i think) sufficiently shaped and limbs thinned to start tillering..
i was exercising the limbs to kinda see where i was and here is the photo... i wrapped tape on that hinge so there is no further removal of wood in that area for now till i get things evened up...
just for giggles i tested the draw weight and at about 12" it is pulling 75#
no pops... no snaps... *(yet...)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150224_235246.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150224_235246.jpg.html)
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It's good that you are experimenting. You should know it is fundamental to the tillering process that you never exceed your intended weight when tillering. That is, if you want to end up with a 55# bow, you would never exceed that weight at any moment in the process of making that bow. Stressing those limbs early on, even if just a little, will end up weakening the limbs and compressing the cells on the belly of the bow, permanently.
You should do what is called "ground tiller" first, always. That is, place the tip of a limb on the ground and provide even pressure from your handle while looking down the limb to see that you've got an even bend going and that you are not hinging.
Don't know if you already knew this but...hope it helps. Keep us posted!
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I wish I kept records now that i look back at many years of bow making.
But I did not.
A. pine is very dense. I checked the density and it was greater than that of osage.
I don't remember the actual number.
Jawge
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I see that stuff everywhere I might have to see if I can aquire some.
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It looks like the hinge is the only thing bending, good way to ruin a bow before you even get started. You don't want set that close to the handle.
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What Steve said, woo !! till you get some more of that thing bending. :)
Pappy
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The little quickie survival bow, that Parnell made, was impressive. I think it was around the 40-45 lb. range. I had always thought it would not make much of a bow, because as a kid my friends and I made kids bows, and they would not last, but they did have some power. It is actually not a pine, but in the hickory family. It is from South America, and is also know as Brazilian oak. Australian Pine is a misnomer, as there are no "native" pines in Australia. They have some imported American pines growing there. There is a "Plethora" of that stuff all over down here. It makes excellent wood for smoking fish, and meats, and is excellent fire wood, burns long, and hot. You will notice the hickory, or oak smell to the smoke. Keep us posted on the progress, and listen to these guys, "For they knoweth what they talketh about, and haveth much in experience, so listen ye well." ;)
And pray thee to keepeth us posted, and lots of pictures! Thanks for the posting.
Wayne
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thanks for the advice fellas..
i have been reading and honestly thought i had thinned it out enough to start bending it a bit and after that photo i wrapped the hinge in tape for no further wood removal there and worked out towards the tips more...
Parnell i remember reading that tidbit about not exceeding the weight you want and ~75# is my goal on this one..
y'all please be patient with me i'm a learning but at 46 the grey matter isn't as spongy as it used to be...
this is where i stopped and went to bed last night... *(i need to make a tillering stand)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150225_010152-1.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150225_010152-1.jpg.html)
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The area that is right in front of your left leg needs to be neding a little. Looking better. Outer limbs look a little stiff
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The area that is right in front of your left leg needs to be neding a little. Looking better. Outer limbs look a little stiff
thank you sir!!
i will post more photos when i start on it again
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Right on the middle of that blue tape is where the hinge is. Mark that spot with an X. Leave that area alone and remove wood from above and below with a scraper- like tool. Exercise at short pulls 10-20 times. Never pull further than it takes to expose a problem.
There are buildalongs on my site.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Right on the middle of that blue tape is where the hinge is. Mark that spot with an X. Leave that area alone and remove wood from above and below with a scraper- like tool. Exercise at short pulls 10-20 times. Never pull further than it takes to expose a problem.
There are buildalongs on my site.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
thank you sir!
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Looking better. Let me know if you will need some help with the string making. 75# is serious business, be fun to see how it comes together.
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Looking better. Let me know if you will need some help with the string making. 75# is serious business, be fun to see how it comes together.
i am absolutely going to need help with the string.. i was considering buying a pre made..
But i absolutely would prefer spinning my own. .. right now I'm using paracord...
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well.. today after taking she who must be obeyed to the mall and buying her enough clothes to kill a pack mule i earned enough freetime to work on this thing somemore....
and i made pretty darn good progress *(i think)
i am still working on the tiller i know one of the limbs isn't quite there *(opinions please) it had a crook in the exact middle of the handle that was causing an issue with wanting to twist on me so i used dry heat and 1 gallon jug of water and 3-2liter coke bottles full of water and heated up the handle area and let cool about 6 times total until it was arrow straight *(pun intended) and hopefully will stay that way.
i have pretty much sanded the entire bow out with 36grit and IMHO it looks pretty good.
i was going to stain it but don't feel like cleaning up the mess so when finally tillered out i will seal it as is using tru-oil *(which i have to go buy)...
anyway enough blathering on here are some photos...
i finished the handle area and wrapped it with hemp string and sealed that area with CA *(crazy glue)
*(forgive the tattoo's please)
when i started
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150228_190918.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150228_190918.jpg.html)
after a bit of work...
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150228_221126.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150228_221126.jpg.html)
and where i stopped and started working on the handle
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150228_223606.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150228_223606.jpg.html)
from what i can tell at this moment it is 65-70lbs where i have it pulled in that photo..
any suggestions as always are much appreciated and thanks for listening...
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Hi Paco,
This is just my initial opinion on the tiller - I'm no expert so let the guys who really know their stuff clarify!
You've essentially got loads of bending happening mid limb, nothing in the middle and not much at the tips (especially left tip) it's also hinging badly (or will do after about 50 shots) right where that green broomstick is. The right limb is much better but to solve the issues on the left will require the right to be weakened quite a lot to balance.
Personally I'd forget the idea of hitting 75# and focus on a nice smooth bend. The fades need to work more, the left tip needs to come round more to help out the hinge, the right limb needs to be weakened all over to match the left and by the time those things are corrected you'll probably lose another 15# or more, but the bow won't give up at full draw, as it might do at the moment.
Keep at it, as solving problems makes you dramatically more experienced than getting it right first time!
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Throughout the process, it's really important to keep your tiller as even as possible. In other words, the limbs should be bending the same always, regardless of what stage in the tillering process you're at. Yours clearly are not, and I hope you can see that. The right limb (as compared to the left) is very stiff. It is the better bending limb, by far. The left limb is very weak, and has a bad hinge.
As soon as you see a problem, fix it BEFORE you continue making it bend further. Also, get rid of the long string and get your bow to a low brace (3-4") if it feels like it wants to. If you see a problem at brace, don't pull it to full draw! Fix it first. With your limbs so uneven, you'll see the problem at brace. You should not be pulling that bow as far as you are!
What you have to do now is match the limbs by weakening the strong limb. You also need to fix that hinge in the left. Take your time... slow down and problem solve as they arise. Also remember... even tapers make even bends.
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Use your fingers as a thickness gauge going down the limb from the handle to the tip. You should be able to feel an even taper with no thick/thin spots. Takes practise but fingers make very good thickness gauges!
Good advice on the tiller given above.
Go slow, or slower and give lots of exercise every time you remove wood.
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duly noted on the tiller suggestions... does this look like an improvement?
i have it now braced out about 3"... and CAREFULLY evening things out *(i hope)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150301_120457.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150301_120457.jpg.html)
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braced at 3"... i made a trip to home depot and made a "tillering board"... this is looking better to my very very untrained eyes...
please tell me what you guys see...
here is 16"
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150301_142018.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150301_142018.jpg.html)
here is 17"
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150301_142105.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150301_142105.jpg.html)
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There'a a bit of hinge on the right side about a foot out from the handle
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There'a a bit of hinge on the right side about a foot out from the handle
right there where that knot is?
and shave a bit on each side?
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i know the black arrow is a hinge and i have removed *(carefully) wood from the red area to try and fix it..
opinions on result?
the other limb with the green i think looks ok but i ain't sure...
opinions are greatly appreciated..
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/1bc7f93f-a5b3-4b34-aef2-c02954a3c3fb.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/1bc7f93f-a5b3-4b34-aef2-c02954a3c3fb.jpg.html)
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I think a little more from the red. The hinge on the left limb is better but still there. You're sneakin' up on it :D
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I think a little more from the red. The hinge on the left limb is better but still there. You're sneakin' up on it :D
thanks I'm trying. ..
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Brian, looks like you have a knot on that limb. I'd tiller that limb so that the knot appears stiff. Remove wood from the end of the fades to just before the knot by a few inches. Get that wood bending more. Use a scraper-like tool to avoid hinging and go a little beyond for a few strokes to feather in your wood removal.
On that right limb, get that wood moving from the end of the fades out to about 6 inches or so. Again I would be using a scraper-like tool.
Then we can see how that looks. Take just a few scraper at a time and exercise the stave at short pull for 10-20 times. You may need to remove wood mid limb on to the nocks. Let's see.
Jawge
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thank you Jawge... I have a scraper and will start back up Tuesday before work...
she who must be obeyed has shut down all wood working for the night... lol...
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I would scrap from where your knot is back towards the handle. It's still looking good.
I'm glad to see someone try an American Flat Bow with that wood.
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I'm a better photoshopper than bower so here my contribution ;)
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Your progress is good! Glad to see you've got the bug. Don't rush your tiller and follow the advice making sure it is as even as possible. Have you cut more A. Pine saplings and have them drying? Would be a good idea...
How long is the bow from nock to nock? I'll make you a string and when you come over I'll teach you how.
Keep going!
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I have 1 more pine drying...
But about 2 miles from the house is a wooded area that is just loaded. ..
If you want any let me know. ..
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I'd be interested in a sapling, again, if you are going to go cut some. Look for pipe straight with minimal knots if you do.
OK, so what is the length of this you are working on, string knock to string knock?
Also, take a picture of your string knocks and post them up, I'm concerned you cut into your back...
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71" tip to tip
69.5" ntn
They ain't pretty but...
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150302_160834.jpeg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150302_160834.jpeg.html)(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150302_161014.jpeg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150302_161014.jpeg.html)(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150302_161152.jpeg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150302_161152.jpeg.html)(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150302_161202.jpeg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150302_161202.jpeg.html)
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Could it be that "She who must be Obeyed" has found your bow???
It is looking a whole lot better.
Was quite concerned when I saw the first photo.
Dont think that Austrian Pine grows in these parts.
David
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Yeah Mrs grumpy pants took those and sent them to me. .. lol. ..
She's actually quite supportive abut this stuff as long as i clean up my mess.
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Worked on it a bit tonight. .. how is it looking? 21"
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150302_234131.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150302_234131.jpg.html)
22"...
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150302_234122.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150302_234122.jpg.html)
Afraid to pull any further without advice. ..
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looking at it on the big screen i can see *(i think) it needs work in the black area *(excuse the kindergarten level paintshop work)
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/d3b21092-81f5-4e37-a5e0-bcd18d2e5c05.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/d3b21092-81f5-4e37-a5e0-bcd18d2e5c05.jpg.html)
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Looks like you have over a foot of non bending handle. Is that what you want?
Jawge
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Your bow is dangerously close to being whip tillered. As George suggests, get that handle and fades moving and leave those tips alone, especially that hinge in the right limb. The left limb is far better than the right. Try to match them up.
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Yup, your left limb looks pretty good, but you are still slightly stiff out of the handle. Right limb, don't touch that spot where the outer 1/3 starts. Put a big X over it and leave it alone until you get the inner 2/3 working properly.
At that length, you could easily take off an inch and clean up the knocks, if wanted. Good to see you didn't cut into the back.
Next, you are out to 21" so you are getting pretty close. DON'T pull the bow any further until your tiller is perfect!
Post a photo of what the bow is currently looking like unbraced and let's see if some set has begun...
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i see what y'all mean about the fades and near the handle...
here ya go parnell
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150303_105625.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150303_105625.jpg.html)
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Could it be that "She who must be Obeyed" has found your bow???
It is looking a whole lot better.
Was quite concerned when I saw the first photo.
Dont think that Austrian Pine grows in these parts.
David
"Australian". Not actually a pine but a tree that superficially resembles one.
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working in towards the handles... i'm thinking right limb needs a bit of massage...
for some reason the left looks good to me...
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr226/barton664/20150303_115543.jpg) (http://s486.photobucket.com/user/barton664/media/20150303_115543.jpg.html)
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You're looking fine, you'll turn out, just think it through and get that tiller perfect now until you pull further.
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Well fellas... she developed fine cracks on the belly right where that hinge was...
Probably from me over bending it when I first started. .. oh well. ..
I learned a bunch from this one. ..
On to the next. ..