Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Tyke on January 26, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Title: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tyke on January 26, 2015, 12:35:42 pm
Was wondering why the numers on bow trade are so low.whats the pros and whats the cons.why did you sign up and Why didnt you sign up. Please share your thoughts
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 12:51:21 pm
I don't want anyone that doesn't have the time to do it to get in. Everyone has their reasons. I would like to see people get their items shipped before the deadline. With a lot of time to work on things their is little reason for people being late.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2015, 12:54:11 pm
Your like the reporter who asks the tough questions. Barbara Walters comes to mind!
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Comancheria on January 26, 2015, 12:59:00 pm
As a novice, I have not looked at the trade--but I would imagine there would be a lot of reluctance for folks to get involved who are not skilled enough to "compete" with some of the drop-dead gorgeous bows the more experienced among us create.  Or maybe I am  understanding what goes on with the trading.

Russ
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: TimBo on January 26, 2015, 01:00:27 pm
I am not quite ready for the trade, even though I would really love to do it.  Also, I have yet to post a bow on here, as I am the world's slowest bow finisher.  Soon, though...soon! 
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: paulsemp on January 26, 2015, 01:01:22 pm
this is going to get good!
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: blackhawk on January 26, 2015, 01:01:48 pm
Been there done that(more than once)....  8)

Now ya wanna know what I REALLY think?  ::)  :P
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Joec123able on January 26, 2015, 01:02:47 pm
I seriously thought about it but I really don't have any good staves to make someone a bow with, mostly black walnut is all I have right now and a few Osage.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JonW on January 26, 2015, 01:03:25 pm
I think some may be intimidated because of different reasons. I personally like the trade but I also don't like the idea of making "custom" bows. Whoever I draw will more than likely get the type of bow I want to make and not a bow designed specifically to their "specs". With that said, I WILL make the best bow I can make and that is all I expect in return.

Jon W.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Eric Krewson on January 26, 2015, 01:03:33 pm
I only shoot bows I make, no need to trade for one someone else made.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 01:04:28 pm
Your like the reporter who asks the tough questions. Barbara Walters comes to mind!
Less hair on the head, more on the face. He's a cute bugger.  >:D

This is how I take his post: Why are all the teachers sitting this one out? Is there a doubt from them that we as bowyers can make a bow worthy of being in their collection? Is it because of me that they aren't joining the trade?

I feel the same way. As an eager learning bowyer I like the idea of making something that someone will hold dear. I really wouldn't care if I got a red oak board bow from someone, I enjoy when people take the time to make something for me. In the end, people have their own reasons for joining or not. I want to be a part of this to make something better than I have before. To give someone a bow that is the best bow I have made.

In short we are needy and need someone to say good work.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 01:05:17 pm
Been there done that(more than once)....  8)

Now ya wanna know what I REALLY think?  ::)  :P
Yes!  >:D You can message me your response if you like.  >:D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 26, 2015, 01:10:28 pm
Been there done that(more than once)....  8)

Now ya wanna know what I REALLY think?  ::)  :P

YES. I was gonna bribe one of the guys to let me send you something >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: paoliguy on January 26, 2015, 01:11:00 pm
I admit I'm kind of intimidated when I see the talent level displayed here routinely. But I also enjoy experimenting with various designs and materials for my own personal use. I have yet to post a bow or even show a lot of my bows to other people. I just enjoy my own private little world I guess...
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 26, 2015, 01:15:29 pm
I think some may be intimidated because of different reasons. I personally like the trade but I also don't like the idea of making "custom" bows. Whoever I draw will more than likely get the type of bow I want to make and not a bow designed specifically to their "specs". With that said, I WILL make the best bow I can make and that is all I expect in return.

Jon W.

The only specs anyone asks for are draw weight and length, and a lot of people are fine with a pretty wide range. I guess I asked from something extra, but only that they don't make me a molle ;D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 01:18:16 pm
I guess another reason may be that this is really a crap shoot, and shouldn't be. A bow can look great in a photo but still be a dog. HAHA, from my first bow, I would have expected Bubby to tell me to learn the lingo and come back. I was soooooo Green.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JonW on January 26, 2015, 01:25:39 pm
I think some may be intimidated because of different reasons. I personally like the trade but I also don't like the idea of making "custom" bows. Whoever I draw will more than likely get the type of bow I want to make and not a bow designed specifically to their "specs". With that said, I WILL make the best bow I can make and that is all I expect in return.

Jon W.

The only specs anyone asks for are draw weight and length, and a lot of people are fine with a pretty wide range. I guess I asked from something extra, but only that they don't make me a molle ;D


The question was asked and I gave my answer.

I would have a REAL hard time coming up with a long enough piece of wood that I would feel comfortable taking out to a thirty inch draw IF I was even able to draw that far. I can see where a guy early in the game would find that quite intimidating.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Pat B on January 26, 2015, 01:34:29 pm
This will be only the second year I haven't signed up because I really don't have the time and I'm already making 2 other bows for folks.
 When we started doing these bow trades years ago it was to encourage folks to build a better bow, to make yourself do for someone else what you wouldn't do for yourself, to push the envelope. It shouldn't matter whether you are a novice or a seasoned bowyer, built one bows or 100. If you wanted in you were in. It also wasn't about the bow you might get but building the best bow you could for your recipient. Most of the bows I have received over the years were built by novices but I still have them all in my collection, every one and I also did bow trades on Trad Gang.
 When we first started doing the PA bow trade some folks wanted to have a novice class and a seasoned bowyer class but to me that would defeat the purpose why it was originally started. I didn't want to be a part of something like that. I wanted it to encourage new bowyers to really put themselves out and build the best bow they could for their recipient. I hope it continues along those lines.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 26, 2015, 01:38:28 pm
Quote
I would have a REAL hard time coming up with a long enough piece of wood that I would feel comfortable taking out to a thirty inch draw IF I was even able to draw that far. I can see where a guy early in the game would find that quite intimidating.

Two guys have given limitations on what they're 100% comfortable with, and it works out because not everyone is looking for more than fifty pounds (actually I think right now the average is around forty pounds), and I think the longest draw anyone's asked for was a range from 27-29".

Not trying to coerce you, you just bring up very good points that have a relevant response ;)

Pat, we've got lots of newer bowyers in the trade. We're only worried about people being able to send safe bows, not so much stunning masterpieces. We do want the new guys to get and give to and from all kinds of bowyers.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 01:41:38 pm
I agree 100% PatB. I do that quite a bit  ;D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tyke on January 26, 2015, 02:04:32 pm
Why be intimidated either you get someting you can learn from or have someone tell you how you can improve.plus you can always get great advice with a simple post .
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 02:09:49 pm
I agree that materials are hard to come by for some people. My take on it is I am expecting to get a gift from someone who has spent a fair amount of time on it. In return I will give a bow to someone, and I will do my best to make the best bow I can. If I get a turd, I get a turd. That is the crap shoot of it. But I could end up with a stellar piece of work. Either way. I make bows anyway. And I hate giving them away anyway, so what do I lose?
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tyke on January 26, 2015, 02:22:26 pm
If the bow trade interests you and you have the ability to finish a shooter by august you should join.ive noticed the guys running this trade have tried to go above and beyond trying to accommodate with shipping issues.we should all try as hard as they are . ;)
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: paulsemp on January 26, 2015, 02:39:13 pm
I've done it for the last 3 or 4 years straight and have enjoyed it. No ill feelings here. Lately I've been doing personal trades and find it to be just as if not more rewarding. I will say hats off to anyone who runs it. It never seems to be easy but a whole lot of good comes out of it with just a little bad.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: mikekeswick on January 26, 2015, 02:43:16 pm
For me it's just about giving something back. I really like seeing all the bows people make and just want to make a real stonker for someone. All I ask is that it gets a chance to go into the woods  ;) I'll try and make it worth the shipping costs  >:D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tyke on January 26, 2015, 02:43:32 pm
I like it paul.if anyone is to intimidated id glady do a personal trade with anyone on this site.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 02:54:20 pm
Me too. I'll even take a board bow for a stave bow.  >:D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Blaflair2 on January 26, 2015, 02:58:10 pm
Mike, if I get a bow from u I will burn my hunting bow, just saying...
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 02:59:51 pm
Mike, if I get a bow from u I will burn my hunting bow, just saying...
I won't, but I will probably sleep with it.  >:D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: bubby on January 26, 2015, 03:03:20 pm
Me too. I'll even take a board bow for a stave bow.  >:D


I've made board bows that will outshoot alot of stave bows, when will the bias wane
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: bubby on January 26, 2015, 03:05:22 pm
I just don't have time , I've got four bows to build and working days i don't get as much bow time as i used to
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: half eye on January 26, 2015, 04:14:28 pm
I'm not in because I am allready trading w/ 4-5 folks and building  some presentation bows for the Neshnabek (Potawatomi). I believe that Pat set ya straight though, the whole idea for the trade in the first place was to give the newer guys a challenge to make the best bow they could make, not the best bow on the site.....just the best bow they could make. I've made it a point to trade with newer members and never regretted it one minuet.
rich
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Arrowind on January 26, 2015, 04:31:10 pm
I just don't have time , I've got four bows to build and working days i don't get as much bow time as i used to


I'm in the same boat as Bubby.   I've got several bows to build for other people right now and just can't commit to another one. More bows to build than time....
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Comancheria on January 26, 2015, 04:32:16 pm
Having read up on the spirit of it now, I would not be intimidated--but as huisme implies, I think the threshold a new bowyer should hold himself to is a conservative judgment on his ability to deliver a safe bow--or in my own case--any bow at all! 😊. With that said, I will sit out this year--and be all in next year.

Russ
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 26, 2015, 04:59:03 pm
Lots of great answers coming in from the "Big Dogs". Thanks for all the input. And Bubby, I still love my board bow more than my Osage one.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: SLIMBOB on January 26, 2015, 05:02:32 pm
I would love to get in.  Had a great time on the last trade I was in.  I just simply can't commit myself this year with all the other things I have going on at the moment.  Cant go in to this kind of thing half way and run the risk of letting yourself and other people down if your not completely sure you can give this trade and the people involved the attention it deserves.  I am sure I cannot.  Next year maybe.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2015, 05:03:38 pm
Robert, perfect summation in my book.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: SLIMBOB on January 26, 2015, 05:17:30 pm
Tough decision Chris.  I even thought at one point of getting in and if I had to, sending a bow from among the pile of bows I already have.  Decided that was a half measure at best and somewhat outside of the spirit of this event.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: mullet on January 26, 2015, 09:19:33 pm
I just made me one since I'm still hunting with one I made in 2004, as a back up. And I need to finish one up for Auggie before the Classic. But I'm working 6 days a week for , possibly the next 5 months and averaging 78-80 hours a week.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: vinemaplebows on January 26, 2015, 09:21:58 pm
With those kind of hours...buy one, and don't tell no one. ;)
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JW_Halverson on January 26, 2015, 09:51:38 pm
I only shoot bows I make, no need to trade for one someone else made.

And I am the dead opposite of Eric.  I have meant to make a bow for myself a hundred times over and ended up with that bow in someone elses hands every time. 

And now with the trades I have been in, I have more bows than I could ever become proficient with in a lifetime.  BUT, each and every one of those bows has taught me something I was ignorant of before I received it.  Each one has been handled, strung, hung on the tillering tree, and cross examined like a hostile witness in the hotbox.  And they have all impressed me in one way, if not several ways. 

Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 26, 2015, 10:17:41 pm
I'm kinda like jaydub, of several dozens of bows I've made I only have one of my own, and I only have it because it's a freak experiment in its own right (46"ntn, pull to 25" regularly after it chrysaled at 26").
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JW_Halverson on January 26, 2015, 10:24:13 pm
And I will give up one of the bows I have received in trade just like I will give up vital organs....when I am dead!

But I just realized I do have one shootable bow that I made.  The only reason I still have it is because it is a stupid design and I am waiting for it to blow up.  Of course, it will NEVER blow up because I never shoot it.  Catch-22, eh?

I am thinking of taking dribs and drabs of my time between now and Aug15 to turn out a bow as a backup for the trade. 
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 26, 2015, 10:33:46 pm
And I will give up one of the bows I have received in trade just like I will give up vital organs....when I am dead!

But I just realized I do have one shootable bow that I made.  The only reason I still have it is because it is a stupid design and I am waiting for it to blow up.  Of course, it will NEVER blow up because I never shoot it.  Catch-22, eh?

I am thinking of taking dribs and drabs of my time between now and Aug15 to turn out a bow as a backup for the trade.

It's simple: send it to me and let me break it >:D

Let me know if you end up doing/finishing that; everybody on the list seems pretty capable but y'know, just in case ;)
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: mullet on January 26, 2015, 10:42:01 pm
With those kind of hours...buy one, and don't tell no one. ;)


Naaaaw, I see another AR in the picture. :)
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tyke on January 26, 2015, 10:48:08 pm
Well i got answers. If you join lets have fun.if you cant,live vicariously through us and if you just dont want to im sure your reasons are probably greater than i know. I personally would like to thank the greats for there knowledge,my peers for learning from each others follies and to friends future,past and present
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: IdahoMatt on January 27, 2015, 12:31:47 am
I had a great time last year with the trade.  This year I am just spread so thin.  I am working on a couple of personal trades and starting a business.  No time this year.  I love the spirit of the trade.  Makes you worry more about your bow than the bow you send than the one you receive. 
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Pappy on January 27, 2015, 05:06:58 am
Real simple for me, I don't like deadlines, get enough at work ,don't need them in my play. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 27, 2015, 08:37:04 am
Tyke forgets that not everyone is half beaver like him. Tyke is the fastest bow builder I know of (Doesn't take much >:D). If he had the wood he could easily make a bow a day, and a good one at that!
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: koan on January 27, 2015, 12:31:40 pm
I love the spirit of the trade and i really wish i could partake this year...just way to many variables in my life right now... The elephant in the room(IMO) is that alot of the folks who have ran the trade in the past dont do the trades anymore...maybe cuz they have seen the dirty underbelly, lol... ;) ;D Every one has their reasons for doin or not doin the trade. I would not sweat the lower # of folks involved this round.. Just enjoy your build, have fun, and post lots of pics for those of us who cant do it this round 👍👍..... Brian
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Olanigw (Pekane) on January 27, 2015, 12:36:26 pm
It's an easy "no" for me.

I ain't made a bow that's held together yet.  I've been working on the same little oak board for 6 months.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: missilemaster on January 27, 2015, 01:53:44 pm
I wont be able to do it because I have a big trip planned for when I would be working on it. I have been doing one on one trades.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tree_Ninja on January 27, 2015, 01:56:53 pm
I read through the reasons why not. I agree with all of them.
 
 I really want to give a nice bow to someone to appreciate. My personal list of giveaway bows is always growing.
 
Looking at the past tradebow threads, there are only a few outliers that walked away with negative experiences. Many if not all, had issues while working their bows. In the end all of them looked fantastic.

  When I see an awesome bow on here I get a bit jealous. Not that they have a nice bow, I'm jealous of the skill and workmanship that went into it. I think "I wish I could make a bow that nice". It inspires me.

   Recieving a nice bow would be awesome, but the main reason I'm on here is to make my own bows and learn the process and trials and tribulations.

 My reasons why not: wood isn't cured long enough, too many to make for friends family and coworkers, and the last two bows I made(haven't posted), came in under 30#.

Not that anyone would notice my absence from the trade bow . Maybe next year.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 27, 2015, 02:20:34 pm
The elephant in the room(IMO) is that alot of the folks who have ran the trade in the past dont do the trades anymore...maybe cuz they have seen the dirty underbelly, lol... ;) ;D

I've thought about that myself, and I think I'll be back next year for the bow trade. I've run some contests on reddit that don't always go so pretty, been the judge of a couple where there's a misconception that the subject is completely relative and can't be standardized, and I've moderated a few subs with trolls under their bridges ;) I'm young and don't get worn down by that garbage yet, I figure I might help like that.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 27, 2015, 06:02:09 pm
 I am in this to give back. And a heads up to anyone who may be trying to pull one over on us  >:D, I will hunt you down. I will call your work, school, find any accounts on social media, find where your grandma lives. Everyone you know will know that you are a cheat! I don't expect any issues, but I have lots of spare time!  >:D Never underestimate a computer literate fat guy with lots of spare time.

That being said, lets do this gents!
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: hunterbob on January 27, 2015, 07:19:08 pm
I am in this to give back. And a heads up to anyone who may be trying to pull one over on us  >:D, I will hunt you down. I will call your work, school, find any accounts on social media, find where your grandma lives. Everyone you know will know that you are a cheat! I don't expect any issues, but I have lots of spare time!  >:D Never underestimate a computer literate fat guy with lots of spare time.

That being said, lets do this gents!


Love it......
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Danzn Bar on January 27, 2015, 07:57:51 pm
I am in this to give back. And a heads up to anyone who may be trying to pull one over on us  >:D, I will hunt you down. I will call your work, school, find any accounts on social media, find where your grandma lives. Everyone you know will know that you are a cheat! I don't expect any issues, but I have lots of spare time!  >:D Never underestimate a computer literate fat guy with lots of spare time.

That being said, lets do this gents!

We're going to start calling you the "bad Joe"........ :) :) ;)

I'm with Pappy on this one.....I have worked most of my life with dead lines and have been in many competitions.  I know that this is not a competition, I just like doing things in my time frame these days... ;)
I wouldn't mind getting in on some one on one bow trades now that I have a few bows under my belt.

DBar
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Blaflair2 on January 27, 2015, 08:41:06 pm
I joined the trade to make someone else something special. I enjoy others work as well. I'm going outta my comfort zone on plan A. I got a few others lined up as well. I hope to make a bow that brings a tear to my eye when putting it in a tube and leaving the post office without it.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: mullet on January 27, 2015, 09:19:31 pm
I am in this to give back. And a heads up to anyone who may be trying to pull one over on us  >:D, I will hunt you down. I will call your work, school, find any accounts on social media, find where your grandma lives. Everyone you know will know that you are a cheat! I don't expect any issues, but I have lots of spare time!  >:D Never underestimate a computer literate fat guy with lots of spare time.

That being said, lets do this gents!

Could always use a Deputy. ;D
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Tyke on January 27, 2015, 09:26:13 pm
A regular old barney fife  :laugh:
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: koan on January 27, 2015, 09:46:32 pm
A regular old barney fife  :laugh:

You guys are killin me, lol.... Brian
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: huisme on January 27, 2015, 10:09:11 pm
I happen to think of myself more as a Mr.Limpet ;)
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JoJoDapyro on January 27, 2015, 11:18:55 pm
A regular old barney fife  :laugh:
more like Otis Tyke.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: JW_Halverson on January 28, 2015, 09:33:36 pm
I guess that makes me Goober down at the gas station.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: sleek on January 28, 2015, 11:40:02 pm
Oh oh oh! Can I be Otis? The town drunk that would always come lock himself up to sober up?

Never mind I see he has been taken...
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: lebhuntfish on January 29, 2015, 01:21:14 am
I was pretty hesitant about signing up. I'm my own worst critic! If I have something I've made that has a flaw in it, I will fixate on it every time I look at it. Sometimes I figure out how to fix it. Sometimes I figure out how to hide it.
I was asked by several people if I was going to sign up for the bow trade. At first I thought,  you know I'm not as good as some of these other guys. Then I thought what if my tiller ain't as good as some of the other people's. The list kept going on and on. The thing is I could find  a lot of excuses not to sing up. Then I thought, be confident in my abilities and I will always come out on top. So I did the deed! Now I'm excited and can't wait to get started! Though be it a little  nervous!  This will be my first trade bow and first bow I've ever shipped. But I know if I get  into trouble all I have to do is make a  post and ask a question! Patrick
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Aaron H on January 29, 2015, 03:48:32 pm
Wish I could join this year. I have really enjoyed this website and magazine, and like so many others have already said; I really enjoy the spirit of this trade.  To make something that you are very proud of, and to push your own personnel limits, and then just give it away. Not caring what you get in return, just happy to give away something you poured your heart into.  But I have a newborn and zero time to put into something that would take much more than I can give.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: KellyG on January 29, 2015, 08:53:38 pm
Well for me I run another swap, am moving in march, and I need to complete 3 bows before I do the other swap bow. So I am on the fence. I don't want to be that guy.

Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: Gaur on January 30, 2015, 07:44:54 am
I've gone through a lot of changes this last year.  We moved back from Thailand and settled in MN.  Remodeling our house.  I am traveling now a lot and haven't built a bow in the last year.  I decided by signing up I would force myself to make a few bows this year.  I may regret it but I will get this one and the TG one done and hopefully learn more and improve more.  Wish I had a heated garage though.  Rough in the winter here.  Maybe next year I'll get to my grand scheme and connect the garage to the house and put in a heated floor with a shop for me. 

I'm a bit disappointed to not see more of the long timers on for this year.  That was always a cool thing to think I might be getting a bow from the likes of some of you.  But I'll be happy (as I always was) on the other two trades I have been a part of here.
Title: Re: to join or why not to join?
Post by: lesken2011 on January 30, 2015, 08:07:05 am
Well, I feel a little guilty for not being in this year. I was in the last couple of years and drew the names of some of the best bowyers (poor guys), and needless to say my skills had a lot to be desired, at the time. I have improved some, though, and intend to participate in the future, but have to make a few bows for family members, this year. I got 2 made for Christmas for my grand baby girls and now have to make 3 for my boys. I hope to find time next year to get back in. Maybe by then I will be able to turn out a product the recipient will be proud of.