Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2015, 10:46:08 am
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Great...
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BOOOOOM! :o
It is good if you back it, in my opinion :D Hickory seems to match it well, or sinew backing if you have that possibility. Not sure I would trust a self bow unless the piece of ERC was exceptional quality.
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Well that stinks man.Was that in your hand when it blew? Glad you didn't make me one from it!
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I know! I love it too! Both of these were backed with rawhide. One broke at a belly compression point (chrysal) and the other blew up because of the gypsies.
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Sure was bud! Farthest piece went about 8 feet! Nothing touched me but the string. This was for my wife. 66" ntn and let rip at 30 @ 22 or so. Pretty sad really. Good bow wood doesn't need a back. Good bow wood stands alone IMHO.
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And I see you had already shaped your osage overlays on that... Several hours of work making kindling.
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Good bow wood doesn't need a back. Good bow wood stands alone IMHO.
Agreed. Sorry for the loss!
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Good bow wood doesn't need a back. Good bow wood stands alone IMHO.
True
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What does the limb cross section look like? How dry was is? I also had a ERC ELB that was RH backed and it blew up also. I'm still willing to give it a chance. Use sinew, or linen. ERC will make a great bow. Just not a great Selfbow. Blackhawk has a great one somewhere in archives. Unless it broke or something in the recent past.
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Good grief. It blew at 30#@22"? Wow. That's barely bending. I have an ERC stave in my shop... maybe I'll just continue to look at it. Glad you didn't get hurt.
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I really wish I hadn't opened this...I am just starting to rough out an ERC ELB. I should have made it into flutes...oh well. Helmet and goggles time.
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I didn't have 2 hours in this thing, the wood is so soft it just falls right off. I think Josh mentioned second growth or branches are much, much stronger than trunk wood. Id tend to buy that.
Rawhide wont always keep a bow together, but it will dampen the explosion and lessen injuries.
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Should I feel bad that I laughed when I scrolled down to see the picture? I thought I was going to see a really cool bow!
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Laugh away Bobert! I did last night when it happened. When a good bow wood does this, Im not so happy.
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Knowing you I knew what i was going too see before I opened the thread by ur title. :laugh: that sucks pal,but your a seasoned veteran,n I know it don't bother ya. :P ...looks like its time for plan osage to me ;)
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I seldom make it past a couple dozen shots with erc. if I am lucky enough to get it to full draw.
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The top of the branches are better, as the ring count is much higher and grown under tension. However with ERC backed it or risk the boom
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.... Blackhawk has a great one somewhere in archives. Unless it broke or something in the recent past.
Hope ya didn't jinx me,or I don't jinx myself in saying this....but all my erc bows(all of em are backed with something) are still alive n well in one piece and do get shot from time to time.... Now I need to go find some wood to knock on. ::)
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Wow always heard ERC was explosive! It's my least favorite of the junipers.
I gotta disagree though pearlie, sinew backed juniper is a deadly combo!
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I agree, but the variance amongst the junipers is night and day. Ive made some killer yew bows.
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We have got tons of ERC around here, and it is beautiful stuff to look at, it smells great, and I am tempted to try it, but everytime I start to give it a go, I see a post like this one. I am not as lucky as some folks; I would have probably ended up in the emergency room ;D. That looked like a spectacular fail PD. If I ever do try one, I am going to try to remember to run video of the tillering.
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Don't let me hold you back Howard. You never know what may become of your attempt.
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That's gonna take a LOT of sinew to fix that one!
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What were the specs on the bows Pearlie? I personally have made bamboo backed ERC and maple backed ERC. If making a flatbow you must keek it a bit wider than you do premium bow woods....OVERBUILD IT! ;)
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66" ntn and I was shooting for 32 ish @ 24-25. It was just over an inch wide and the whole bow was bending out to the tips. I wasn't asking much of it at all.
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Too bad, Pearlie but ERC does make the best bow explosion of any bow wood I've ever used.
I made an ERC ELB(45#@26") a few years back with rawhide backing. I was letting Marcia's cousin shoot it and both limb tips folded over about 6" from the tips simultaneously when she drew it...but it didn't blow, just badly bent.
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Yeah That sucks Pearlie, grab out some osage and make a fine bow!
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SURE blame it on the wood! If you knew anything about making bows, that would never happen.. :)
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Well that stinks man.Was that in your hand when it blew? Glad you didn't make me one from it!
Ya know it was in pearlys hands they are the elephant graveyard for bows, they go there to die >:D
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That sucks buddy! Glad you wasn't hurt!
Well I think you learned 2 things here!
That bow will never make it! >:D
And how to build a 9 piece take-down with one draw. >:D
I guess you're just going to have to make another one. Dang the luck! :laugh: Patrick
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at least you dont have to worry if you can repair it :)
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Heck no Brad! It took 2-3 minutes to find all the shards. That pic is the complete bow minus a sliver or two.
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What an explosion! Look at those pieces!
I really have no desire to try ERC. Got several pieces growing in my yard that I could cut and use...no desire.
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I still think there is more to this than is being said. From responses and my exploded bow also it appears that they are mostly ELB that we're backed withdraw hide. It appears that raw hide is not sufficient. I wonder if a rectangular cross section would help?(as Twistedlimbs bows). Also, did you trace a ring so you could get more heart wood?
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I have a lot of beautiful ERC staves in my stash, but now I am really interested to see some ERC bows that actually are alive and well.
Matthias
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I have to admit even I chuckled a bit. When my first (and only) red oak bow started ticking on the tillering board, I suddenly realized I had it sitting below my wife's treasured original Audobon print with high-dollar museum glass. I ran over, risking life and limb and sprinted with it into the garage--where it exploded.
Even so, it at least had the good grace to end up in two pieces. Lord help us, PD--it looks like the splinters have little piles of sawdust lying around! I hope you do your own laundry. 😊
Russ
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I still think there is more to this than is being said. From responses and my exploded bow also it appears that they are mostly ELB that we're backed withdraw hide. It appears that raw hide is not sufficient. I wonder if a rectangular cross section would help?(as Twistedlimbs bows). Also, did you trace a ring so you could get more heart wood?
A lot of that has merit on most builds squatch. However, when Im trying to make a pee wee weight bow 66" long and this happens? I don't care what the cross section is, it isn't good bow wood by any stretch. I know second growth and branches are much, much better. My good buddy Josh is going to send me a limb and let me try again.
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I still think there is more to this than is being said. From responses and my exploded bow also it appears that they are mostly ELB that we're backed withdraw hide. It appears that raw hide is not sufficient. I wonder if a rectangular cross section would help?(as Twistedlimbs bows). Also, did you trace a ring so you could get more heart wood?
When you see the very experienced guys like Chris that still break bows once in a blue moon you know there's more to it than the skill of the bowyer. Exploding wood keeps things interesting! >:D
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That's a shame. I've always had good luck with it. But, I make the limbs a lot wider then that and longer. 1 3/4 -2" wide and at least 68" for a 55#, 28" draw. And with a piece of ERC like I sent you.
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was the stave from a main trunk or a limb/sapling?
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Well the good news is you weren't hurt and that it didn't make it to completion and then blow at full draw while your wife was shooting it. My guess is you'll grab another wood and have something tillered out and shooting for her by thursday. ;)
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Well that sux... Like Greg said, at least it didn't blownup on her. Go grab some REAL wood and make somethin!
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66" ntn and I was shooting for 32 ish @ 24-25. It was just over an inch wide and the whole bow was bending out to the tips. I wasn't asking much of it at all.
Flat belly or D section?
I've never had problems with ERC
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If it explodes imagine how much energy it had in it. You just have to contain it like any other volatile substance.
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Scratch that wood off my list. Nice tips, Chris!
George
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66" ntn and I was shooting for 32 ish @ 24-25. It was just over an inch wide and the whole bow was bending out to the tips. I wasn't asking much of it at all.
Flat belly or D section?
I've never had problems with ERC
A shallow D. There may have been 3/8" down the center that was flat. My opinion? Possibly too dry and rings too thick for this type of wood. Im sure if I went longer and wider it would work. But I cant see doing that for a pee wee bow like I need.
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Yep cedar is a fickle wood! Too pretty not to try, but not one of the great bow woods. I have a nice shooting sinew backed ERC. I tried an all heartwood rawhide backed last year and it blew up during tillering - pictures posted here somewhere. I have some staves I am still going to try.
Can't tell for sure how much sapwood you had on this one Chris - do you think the sapwood is better than the heartwood?
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I can say for sure that a self bow with more sapwood is real good for ERC.
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I didn't have 2 hours in this thing,
You are recognized as a very prolific bowyer, one with a backlog of experience that allows you to take shortcuts that would be a death sentence to another bowyer's work. But in this case, with this being a newer wood for you, maybe you were rushing things a little?
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Glad to hear that no blood was shed ! Bob
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Yep, about made me quite making bow 25+ years ago. Haven't tried it in years, the only really good one I have made from it, I am talking selfbow was all sap, it's still together and pretty snappy. :) Got no reason or desire to go back, they blow with some real enthusiasm don't they. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Just me, but with all the stories about erc explosions, I dont think I could ever be comfortable enough with one to take it hunting. Has ayone else done any hard hunting with unbacked erc?
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Glad to hear that no blood was shed ! Bob
Blood might not be good,but a good whack in his head might not be such a bad thing...he could use it ::) :laugh:
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I am sure their are exceptions Cody, and we will hear about them ;) :) :) but I had some many blow[keep in mind I hadn't done many at the time] that I flinch even thinking about it and still blame part of my short draw problem on trying to shoot one. I tried rawhide and they even blew, never tried sinew I hear that work great :-\ :-\ Yep Chris it sure couldn't hurt him. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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You both better watch it! Marshall and Elm Hall aren't that far away and I have dang good memory :)
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...and I have dang good memory :)
You do right now. But if ERC bits and pieces keep banging on your brain bucket you might not! >:D :o
OneBow
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+1bow
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Good bow wood doesn't need a back. Good bow wood stands alone IMHO.
Good SELFbow wood - agreed.....but what about juniper/sinew, yew/sinew etc
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Who knows if this would've survived being a bit wider and backed..we won't ever know. But it just might have. ERC rarely ever just lifts a splinter or crack and not come apart. When it does so it comes apart into pieces as shown here. A backing could've kept it from lifting that splinter and exploding. Its a very elastic wood,and can bend very far before breaking as long as its backed. Being unbacked in my crude bend tests with it it just doesn't go very far at all before breaking in tension. Just like this one didnt go very far before breaking. Its of my opinion that "chances" are that this isn't 100% the woods fault.
One other thing is that you can't "rush" this wood when bending/tillering it. You can't treat it like osage,yew,or hickory for example. It needs to be patiently taught how to bend,and thoroughly exercised as its being tillered. And the rule of not bending it any further than when the teeniest tineiest slightest hinge is seen must be adhered to. You can't go to first bracing it,and saying that looks good and yanking it back to 20"+. Sorry but it don't matter how good a bowyer someone is,you just don't go making a ERC bow(let alone unbacked) in two hours. But pearly isn't a "patient" bowyer,and ERC is def not made to his liking and style of bowmaking or personality. Hopefully no offense is taken pal. ERC isn't for everyones style and how they make bows. ERC gets such a bad rep,but I think a lot of it is just as much the person as it is the wood if not more actually.
Sure it isn't a great "selfbow" wood,but if treated right it can make a great backed bow still.
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Good bow wood doesn't need a back. Good bow wood stands alone IMHO.
Good SELFbow wood - agreed.....but what about juniper/sinew, yew/sinew etc
Both of those woods are very capable of standing alone.
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Who knows if this would've survived being a bit wider and backed..we won't ever know. But it just might have. ERC rarely ever just lifts a splinter or crack and not come apart. When it does so it comes apart into pieces as shown here. A backing could've kept it from lifting that splinter and exploding. Its a very elastic wood,and can bend very far before breaking as long as its backed. Being unbacked in my crude bend tests with it it just doesn't go very far at all before breaking in tension. Just like this one didnt go very far before breaking. Its of my opinion that "chances" are that this isn't 100% the woods fault.
One other thing is that you can't "rush" this wood when bending/tillering it. You can't treat it like osage,yew,or hickory for example. It needs to be patiently taught how to bend,and thoroughly exercised as its being tillered. And the rule of not bending it any further than when the teeniest tineiest slightest hinge is seen must be adhered to. You can't go to first bracing it,and saying that looks good and yanking it back to 20"+. Sorry but it don't matter how good a bowyer someone is,you just don't go making a ERC bow(let alone unbacked) in two hours. But pearly isn't a "patient" bowyer,and ERC is def not made to his liking and style of bowmaking or personality. Hopefully no offense is taken pal. ERC isn't for everyones style and how they make bows. ERC gets such a bad rep,but I think a lot of it is just as much the person as it is the wood if not more actually.
Sure it isn't a great "selfbow" wood,but if treated right it can make a great backed bow still.
All I read was blah, blah, blah and a ton of assumptions. No offense I hope?
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let the cat fight begin
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None taken
My post wasn't "quite" aimed at ya...it was more of a trying to even things out instead of it being a one sided ERC sucks bashing. Also its for those who do there research and come across this thread as it is good advice of how to use ERC the right way,and what NOT to do.
In layman's terms:
Treat it right,and odds are good it will treat you right back.
If ya wanna go into what I think you did wrong we can :P
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This is gonna get good
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let the cat fight begin
Ya know at the same time were doing our normal daily talk via texts of what's up n what were doing etc... :laugh:
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This is gonna get good
Hopefully Chris is feeling as spunky as I am today :laugh:
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The moral of the story is simply this: 66" ntn - 30# - POW. That's 15# per 33" of limb. A pine yard stick can handle that, green or seasoned! We aren't talking hunting weight in this instance, it was a kiddy weight bow at best. I could have spent 6 hours rubbing its belly nicely and asking it for strength and courage to hold together, and it still would have blown. Time spent in this instance is irrelevant. Many of your points are dead nuts in a different situation with the same wood.
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Glad to know it didn't backfire on ya.
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Well, I will go ahead and try to make my ERC ELB...maybe I will find out if I am patient or just slow!
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he probably dry fire it. it wouldn't be the first time he did it I've seen him dry fire before
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(http://rabbittalk.com/images/smilies/smiley-eatdrink062.gif)
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I'm not trying to start crap. Because you are an awesome bowyer and have many more bows than me. I feel that your bows are perfect in every way. However, I feel like in any situation when a bow breaks it is the bowyers fault. Stop passing blame to the wood. I feel like you were trying to fit it into some specific dimensions probably more suited to a wood with more specific gravity. You are right ERC is not the "best" bow wood. But a bow good bow can be made with it, as long as it is properly planned out. pearl drums, I really do respect your work, and hope to meet you one day. But this was clearly your fault, or an unseen flaw in the wood. Which in the later case you would be happy to make another because you knew it wasn't your fault.
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I'm not trying to start crap. Because you are an awesome bowyer and have many more bows than me. I feel that your bows are perfect in every way. However, I feel like in any situation when a bow breaks it is the bowyers fault. Stop passing blame to the wood. I feel like you were trying to fit it into some specific dimensions probably more suited to a wood with more specific gravity. You are right ERC is not the "best" bow wood. But a bow good bow can be made with it, as long as it is properly planned out. pearl drums, I really do respect your work, and hope to meet you one day. But this was clearly your fault, or an unseen flaw in the wood. Which in the later case you would be happy to make another because you knew it wasn't your fault.
Good luck getting that stubborn headed German to admit he made a mistake,or was even partially at fault. >:D :laugh:
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With regards to dimensions of Pearlie's bow, it's possible this was a particularly light piece of ERC but I don't think that it was underbuilt at just over an inch wide. The only ERC bow I've made was a monster. 80#@29" and 1.5" wide at its widest. At 69" long it's only 3" longer than the bow here. If Chris' bow was just an inch wide it would be ~33% narrower than mine and should be approximately 33% lighter. That would still make a 52# bow. Taking length into account and wood variation, you still have over a 20# difference to account for. And lastly we know that the bow blew at ~30#@22". That's far less of a bend, even for a shorter bow. Of course wood is highly variable within a species. But seeing the bows I've seen from ERC and hearing this, I just don't think that piece of wood was ever going to become a bow.
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@Ryoon....wouldn't your comparison numbers be off and moot seeing how yours is backed and pearlys was not?
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I agree, about this piece of wood being flawed some how. Pearly is a great bowyer. however there is more to designing a bow then just width, mass, length. One would also have to consider the past experiences with the wood. History states that ERC is tension weak. Therefore, a backing, would be applicable, or trapping the limbs(smaller on compression side). I also don't understand why people ( I don't know if pearly did this?) take it down to an inner ring, Back it with raw hide, and call it good. IMO that is a tricky move to preform, because I feel like we can't follow the grain perfectly, no matter how hard we try. So on a wood like ERC IMO if you want to go down a couple rings, then use a very strong backing like bamboo, flax, sinew.
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I'm not trying to start crap. Because you are an awesome bowyer and have many more bows than me. I feel that your bows are perfect in every way. However, I feel like in any situation when a bow breaks it is the bowyers fault. Stop passing blame to the wood. I feel like you were trying to fit it into some specific dimensions probably more suited to a wood with more specific gravity. You are right ERC is not the "best" bow wood. But a bow good bow can be made with it, as long as it is properly planned out. pearl drums, I really do respect your work, and hope to meet you one day. But this was clearly your fault, or an unseen flaw in the wood. Which in the later case you would be happy to make another because you knew it wasn't your fault.
Good luck getting that stubborn headed German to admit he made a mistake,or was even partially at fault. >:D :laugh:
+1 ;)
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That's true. Its still a significant difference, especially when I think about it blowing at such a low draw weight and length. I just find it hard to believe that ERC needs to be backed. Can't say I have much experience with it though. Anyone want to hook me up with some so I can find out? ;D
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You know what I meant before......juniper is transformed by backing with sinew as is yew.
Most sinew backed bows have their backs violated making them flat/smooth enough for sinew.....I bet a violated back wouldn't bend very far before breaking >:D
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That's true. Its still a significant difference, especially when I think about it blowing at such a low draw weight and length. I just find it hard to believe that ERC needs to be backed. Can't say I have much experience with it though. Anyone want to hook me up with some so I can find out? ;D
I might have a piece for ya from proven backed stock. If ERC stands a chance of being unbacked its this batch...the best I've ever seen. But what's that gonna prove if only one is made? You'll have to chase a ring if i find one >:D its doable,n I've done it a few times ;) n wood you make it the same dimensions as a backed bow should be like pearly did?. No one wants to see a 4" wide bent board/paddle/whatever its called,and then you call it a bow and say so what do I win..lol. :laugh: >:D :laugh: :laugh:
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Here's a warbow done by MSL. 120#. ERC. Unbacked. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,3256.msg47437.html#msg47437
I think Pearlie got a bad piece of wood. It happens
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I agree, that stave wasn't gonna make a bow. Chickenhawk brings up a good point about teaching the wood to bend SLOWLY. I haven't built bows with pearly, so I can't speak of his patience and techniques. However, even if he did rush it a bit, he wasn't pushing it very hard when she blew. As far as the chasing a ring goes, good quality ERC don't give a wit about ring violations for hunting weight or less. Warbow weight would probably be a little different story. When I say good quality, I mean tops of limbs and not trunk wood. Trunk wood might stand a chance with a good backing, but in comparison to the limbs, trunkwood sucks as a selfbow. ERC is a softwood so the wood structure is a lot different than hardwoods. Look at the carnage picture. This wood didn't rip down the ring like most hardwoods do when they blow. This one ripped apart in every possible direction possible regardless of ring structure and grain. Every Juniper stave that I've blown up has done the same. That observation was what led me to purposely violating the rings to see if the back would hold together. Guess what...it held together just fine over and over and over. The only thing I have found to be instantly fatal is heartwood showing on the back. Awhile back, I made a character ERC Elb. In one 12 inch section of the working limb I cut through seventeen rings. I was careful to feather them in, but that bow is still shooting just fine today. I shot 2 to 3 hundred arrows from it this last Sunday. All that to say that even with good fun arm chair bowyering going on and "that's a fact theorizing" being contributed, I can't help but believe that this particular piece of wood was never gonna make a selfbow no matter who tried whatever techniques. Just my .02
Josh
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Glad to see this sparked 6 pages of conversation.
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However, I feel like in any situation when a bow breaks it is the bowyers fault. Stop passing blame to the wood.
Ill wait for you to build a few hundred and we'll talk again.
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Snap
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Hey that's the same sound this bow made!
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I have yet to make a bow of erc yet either. Always in many pieces. Dont feel bad pearly, if I cant do it I wouldnt expect you too be able to either. ;D
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However, I feel like in any situation when a bow breaks it is the bowyers fault. Stop passing blame to the wood.
Ill wait for you to build a few hundred and we'll talk again.
Yea, he is right Chris. Its all your fault it broke , so quit blaming an inferior piece of wood! ;D
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Reading this diatribe has me thinking the majority of the ERC I have put up and drying is going to get turned into drum frames and cooking spoons instead of bows. <sigh> Apparently I've been blessed with a bunch of inferior quality wood! :-[ :( :'(
OneBow
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However, I feel like in any situation when a bow breaks it is the bowyers fault. Stop passing blame to the wood.
Ill wait for you to build a few hundred and we'll talk again.
The only thing bending the wood is the bowyer... Sticks don't break themselves.. :o If you kept reading you would have seen that I mentioned that if it was NOT your fault then there must have been a flaw. In this case you would be happy to try your hand at another stave. IMO even if there is a flaw in wood then it is up to the bowyer to compensate for it.
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If it's a flaw in the wood that the bowyer can NOT see, then it's unlikely they'll be able to compensate for it. Wood is a natural material, with flaws.
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I understand that... In that case as I have stated before then, the bowyer would be confident in their skills. Knowing that the wood broke for some unknown reason. Then they would be happy to try another stave of same species. Instead of blaming the entire species. Right?
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You need to take your lawyer hat off and chill.
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You need to take your lawyer hat off and chill.
Sure poke the ERC hornet nest so they all come outta the cedar closet >:D
I'm thinking different -you're tiller was so good, you got junk wood to bend before giving up the ghost!
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You need to take your lawyer hat off and chill.
Ok I'll chill, for the sake of the forum. :-X. I still disagree with much of what you have said, I feel like you could be ruining many potential bows with your statements. I don't feel the need to back down. You called me out when you are the one not answering questions. PM me if interested in caring on the conversation. Other than that I'm done on this issue.
But this has been interesting, Nathaniel Stockberger ( oh yah I'm German also)
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I have no interest, thanks for the invite however.
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Well dang.....just when things were getting "interesting" and the steam runs out. We need more water in the pot boys >:D
I started "something" last night that I might share the ride with y'all. Or I might just abort that mission as its stupid :-X
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Just a typical mid winter thread Bad Chris. It turns into way more than it is or ever was. It was about a crap piece of wood that couldn't do what a bent pine yard stick can. Then it manifested into me not knowing what Im doing.
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Should have stuck with Poplar! >:D
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I know I'm not much of a bowyer but I do know that not every piece of wood will make a bow. And I have seen Pearl Drums post a few bows on here and I have had the pleasure of him helping with advice so I'm go to have to go with the wood as the problem. But as with everyone else I did enjoy reading the thread.
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Pardon if I missed it but.....Have we seen one pic of a ERC self bow? I sure would like someone to show their daily shooter. Even one that has 1000 shots to it's credit. This is so discouraging.
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Chief i know for a fact gundoc has and he talked about it earlier in this post, in fact i think he built a character bow from it
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Well dang.....just when things were getting "interesting" and the steam runs out. We need more water in the pot boys >:D
I started "something" last night that I might share the ride with y'all. Or I might just abort that mission as its stupid
Go ahead and start it blackhawk, i DOUBLE DARE YOU >:D
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Pardon if I missed it but.....Have we seen one pic of a ERC self bow? I sure would like someone to show their daily shooter. Even one that has 1000 shots to it's credit. This is so discouraging.
I posted a link previously to a 120# ERC self warbow.
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Pearly boy, get yourself some Mongolian tulip wood.. It makes a fine bow, even for guys like you who don't know how to make bows.. :) LOL
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me this post started out as a rant of frustration by an experienced bowyer, brought on by a piece of iffy wood, with a species known for failing in dramatic fashion. It also seems to have turned into something completely different. If I was you Chris, I think I'd be a little chuffed about the comments regarding your ability. I know some guys are kidding, but some aren't. I've had bows blow on the tiller on the first pull. I shook my head in disbelief, and reminded myself that when working with natural material, things like this will happen... not often, but they do happen.
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Doesn't bother me Adam. Those who know bowyery, know.
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I think you should just stick to beating your drums:)
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That happens almost every day to Roybert!
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Atta boy..
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Pardon if I missed it but.....Have we seen one pic of a ERC self bow? I sure would like someone to show their daily shooter. Even one that has 1000 shots to it's credit. This is so discouraging.
I posted a link previously to a 120# ERC self warbow.
I saw your post adb. The link did not work for me. I will go back and try to pull it up another way. sure would like to see some. I have lots of the stuff and need the inspiration.
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I will gladly stir the pot Chris. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me when you look at old bows those bows were made from the best materials in their area. and if all they had in their area was ERC or comparable materials they spent the time to back it. sort of the same reason why you don't see a lot of old character bows. even ancient man knew it was a gamble and it's not a risk worth taking if you have a better choice. if you have access to better materials I'd say use them. So my vote is poor wood :-*
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Pardon if I missed it but.....Have we seen one pic of a ERC self bow? I sure would like someone to show their daily shooter. Even one that has 1000 shots to it's credit. This is so discouraging.
I posted a link previously to a 120# ERC self warbow.
I saw your post adb. The link did not work for me. I will go back and try to pull it up another way. sure would like to see some. I have lots of the stuff and need the inspiration.
Just go to the warbow forum and type ERC warbow in the search window. That's how I found it.
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Reading this diatribe has me thinking the majority of the ERC I have put up and drying is going to get turned into drum frames and cooking spoons instead of bows. <sigh> Apparently I've been blessed with a bunch of inferior quality wood! :-[ :( :'(
OneBow
...I'll take that junk off your hands ::)
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I thought this had fizzled out. Now there's two more pages. Lol! Chief, there have been several made by several bowyers on here. The warbow was/is impressive, but the one that inspires me was made a few yrs ago by a young lad named Tom. He went by the handle youngbowyer and I don't believe he was any older than 13 or 14. I don't know where to start to find the pics, but I imagine JW could post a pic or two of it as I'm sure it still holds a place of honor on JW's bow rack.
I'm pretty sure Eddie(Mullet) has made a few, PatB and Pappy have as well if memory serves me correct. I'm sure there are others that I'm forgetting. Maybe they'll have some pics for ya. I have a few pics to hold you until then. Josh
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From "Rolf in the Woods" by Ernest Thompson Seton
"From the dry store hole under the rock, he produced a piece of common red cedar. Some use hickory; it is less liable to break and will stand more abuse, but it has not the sharp, clean action of cedar. The latter will send the arrow much farther, and so swiftly does it leave the string that it baffles the eye. But the cedar bow must be cared for like a delicate machine; overstring it, and it breaks; twang it without an arrow, and it sunders the cords; scratch it, and it may splinter; wet it, and it is dead; let it lie on the ground, even, and it is weakened. But guard it and it will serve you as a matchless servant, and as can no other timber in these woods"
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I know girls who have built good erc bows... I'm thinking ole Pearly boy needs some book learnen on how to make bows... :)
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All in all a good attempt. I was digging them overlays too. Personally, being the stubborn guy that I am I'd do the same design over again until I nailed it. Kind of like hammering a square peg thru a circle 8)
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I know girls who have built good erc bows... I'm thinking ole Pearly boy needs some book learnen on how to make bows... :)
Somebody talk Dean into writing a new book, Hunting the ERC Bow
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(http://rabbittalk.com/images/smilies/smiley-eatdrink062.gif)
educational,entertaining ,and hopefully inspiring ;)
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I didn't read his first one Clint but I might read that one. ::) ;) :) :) Still going on, man do you guys every sleep. ::) ;) :)
Pappy
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This topic has been a hoot! Glad you didn't get hurt, Chris. I bought some erc recently after seeing a couple of real purdy bows with the thought of trying a backed one. I haven't got around to it, yet, but did put some of it in the riser of my grand daughters bow I made her for Christmas. That stuff sure finishes nice!
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I didn't read his first one Clint but I might read that one. ::) ;) :) :) Still going on, man do you guys every sleep. ::) ;) :)
Pappy
Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black!
Gun Doc. Is that several bows and are they sapwood?
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If I was you Chris, I think I'd be a little chuffed about the comments regarding your ability.
In England "chuffed" means proud of yourself, or proud enough to be emotional. This is the first time I've heard it used this way.
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"Somebody talk Dean into writing a new book, Hunting the ERC Bow"
Or maybe Irking the Hunting Bowyer.
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Who is irked Timbo? Not me! Ive enjoyed reading all this. A few years ago I may typed a lot more and got into a mess. Not so interested in all that nowadays.
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If I was you Chris, I think I'd be a little chuffed about the comments regarding your ability.
In England "chuffed" means proud of yourself, or proud enough to be emotional. This is the first time I've heard it used this way.
Does Adam not mean it that way?
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Adam means "pissed".
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I doubt it. He would know how to use the word correctly. The comments about your bow building ability are 99% positive.
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Well maybe so. When I spoke with him, I didn't gather that Pat.
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I doubt it. He would know how to use the word correctly. The comments about your bow building ability are 99% positive.
That's perfect, then. I was reading posts as I went, and must have missed something. Carry on.
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Reading the context he wrote it in it does seem like "miffed" was the word he was looking for.
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If I was you Chris, I think I'd be a little chuffed about the comments regarding your ability.
In England "chuffed" means proud of yourself, or proud enough to be emotional. This is the first time I've heard it used this way.
Where I live in Canada, "chuffed" means offended.
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That's right up there with bad meaning good. I'd love to know how that was reversed in Canada, at least where you live.
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Nothing better to do Pat? ::)
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Than be interested in the changing use of language? I just thought it was unusual that you would pick an obscure word that also has the completely opposite meaning to communicate with an international audience that has probably never heard it used and likely never will again. O:)
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Pat your something else!
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I think pat is just a little "chuffed" right now >:D :laugh:
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Pearlie, did I ever tell you that you a bad bowyer? Bad!
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Nope, but your welcome to man! Im just picking on your perfection, its a fantastic quality to have.
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That will teach me to try to assuage a discussion by trying to make a comment seem positive. ;D
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english.stackexchange.com/questions/114209/chuffed-happy-or-unhappy
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fenglish.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F114209%2Fchuffed-happy-or-unhappy&ei=pv_LVN7yKYa3yASbqgE&usg=AFQjCNEcsDELWTUa9eXF6wyBleuDDToYog
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Yes, I get that. I'm still wondering how it leaped over 150 years and to Canada.
I was born in the UK and only ever heard it in a positive sense while growing up.
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ERC exploded by a mere 15 lbs of tension stress and entire nations full of people divided asunder by a common language. Boy these PA forums have everything!
OneBow
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Well, Pat... I was born and raised in western Canada, with English ancestry on both sides. The only usage of this particular word I ever heard was negative. Chuffed means you are choked. How did that come about in Canadian language? Who the hell knows.
But, like my Mumma used to say... it's a great day when you learn something new. The only thing I don't understand is: how is this relevant to a discussion on one man's opinion of ERC as a bow wood? Sometimes this forum gets soooo far off topic, I find myself shaking my head in amazement. ;D
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Well I was actually born in the UK and I have never heard the word used in Canada (outside my childhood home) in any form.
What does this have to do with ERC as a bow wood? Well I thought Pearlie should still be chuffed with the general opinion of him as a bowyer despite ERC not meeting his stringent demands and I thought you did too ;D
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Then it's a good day Pat... you've learned something new! ;D
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Holy mackeral!i wish this year's bow trade hade a fraction of the enthusiasm that this one garners!
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I'm interested to see which station this train stops at! Let the good times roll! 8)
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The warbow was/is impressive, but the one that inspires me was made a few yrs ago by a young lad named Tom. He went by the handle youngbowyer and I don't believe he was any older than 13 or 14. I don't know where to start to find the pics, but I imagine JW could post a pic or two of it as I'm sure it still holds a place of honor on JW's bow rack.
Dang skippy, Tom/youngbowyer nailed the tiller on that 63# at 26", 66" tip to tip. She's a hard hitter and fits the description that PatM posted from Ernest Thompson Seton. The bow is unbacked and a shallow D crossection, bendy handle.
And what's the use of having Drums around if ya ain't gonna beat on 'em once and again? Speaking of which, howz it feel to be bested in bowmaking by a 14 yr old boy? >:D Now go put on your pull-ups and start another piece of ERC and quitcher whinin'! There's too much talking and not enough pitchers getting posted!
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I'm interested to see which station this train stops at! Let the good times roll! 8)
This train never stops...you should know that 8)
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,30929.msg409587.html#msg409587
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Thanks Pat...that's the beauty.
She has a marked preference for longer and heavier arrows. I have some 750 grain ash 32" arrows that she launches like a science fiction rail gun! When they hit the target you hear a heckuva WHOOMPH!
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Thanks JW and PatM. That bow is exactly what I needed to see. Thanks so much. I am glad it is still flinging arrows. It looks, and correct me if I am wrong, like the back of the bow was debarked and pretty flat. Also the strip of heart wood runs down the belly but the bow is mostly all sapwood. Also it looks like a pretty knot free with very straight grain. I really want to make a bow just like that if I can find a tree to harvest with that quality. It looks absolutely natural in it's form.
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Dang Pearly, I hope the next bow I break gets 11 pages of discussion! >:D Patrick
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What about that one you broke twice? The hickory bow?
Says Patrick " I dont know why it broke on that limb. My tiller was perfect. See, check out this sweet tiller! "
He floor bends the surviving limb. SNAP! And my buddy is left with a three piece take down and a bewildered look on his face. Hehe priceless.
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Dang Pearly, I hope the next bow I break gets 11 pages of discussion! >:D Patrick
The whole thing is blown way out of proportion now Patrick. It seems if anybody can make one hold together sometime soon, I'll be wrong about something and they'll be PA STARS. Never once did I say it couldn't be done, I simply said over and over that ERC is junk wood, specifically self bows, and it is 75% of the time. Ill just stick with my original sediments.
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Hey Pearl,
Don't worry about the quarterbacks that get all the good press and headlines, be one of those lineman that knows who got him there........ :) ;) ;)
DBar
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Dang Pearly, I hope the next bow I break gets 11 pages of discussion! >:D Patrick
The whole thing is blown way out of proportion now Patrick. It seems if anybody can make one hold together sometime soon, I'll be wrong about something and they'll be PA STARS. Never once did I say it couldn't be done, I simply said over and over that ERC is junk wood, specifically self bows, and it is 75% of the time. Ill just stick with my original sediments.
Can we now change the direction of the conversation to highlight the difference between sentiments and sediments? >:D
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Good catch sleek. I'm usually better than that with my grammar.
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Where I come from in Canada "sediment" is a weighty opinion. >:D
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Where I come from in Canada "sediment" is a weighty opinion. >:D
;D
I agree with PD. Yes, ERC is very pretty wood. I'll admit to being a cautious bowyer, but my go to shooters are osage, either from a stave or as the belly in a lam bow. I shoot a few times every week in my basement and it's hard to keep good form if you're worried that the bow is going to explode on the next draw. Of course, osage breaks too, but rarely especially compared to ERC. And it's great looking wood in its own right.
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Good catch sleek. I'm usually better than that with my grammar.
I was just messin with you, referencing earlier and the discussion on the word chuffed vs miffed. Both of which my auto correct recognizes surprisingly enough. Your a good bowyer and I wish you posted more bows.
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Yea I agree,
Pearl needs to post more of the bows he builds...
DBar
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What about that one you broke twice? The hickory bow?
Says Patrick " I dont know why it broke on that limb. My tiller was perfect. See, check out this sweet tiller! "
He floor bends the surviving limb. SNAP! And my buddy is left with a three piece take down and a bewildered look on his face. Hehe priceless.
Dang Pearly, I hope the next bow I break gets 11 pages of discussion! >:D Patrick
The whole thing is blown way out of proportion now Patrick. It seems if anybody can make one hold together sometime soon, I'll be wrong about something and they'll be PA STARS. Never once did I say it couldn't be done, I simply said over and over that ERC is junk wood, specifically self bows, and it is 75% of the time. Ill just stick with my original sediments.
Yeah sleek that one is a pretty good one. The hickory did have a pretty sweet bend until it had a series case of separation anxiety!
Pearl I hear ya buddy. Cedar is a very pretty wood. But I always thought of it as a belly lam. Never worked it myself, except to make cedar chest or furniture. Patrick
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Where I come from in Canada "sediment" is a weighty opinion. >:D
;D
I agree with PD. Yes, ERC is very pretty wood. I'll admit to being a cautious bowyer, but my go to shooters are osage, either from a stave or as the belly in a lam bow. I shoot a few times every week in my basement and it's hard to keep good form if you're worried that the bow is going to explode on the next draw. Of course, osage breaks too, but rarely especially compared to ERC. And it's great looking wood in its own right.
Thats a great point GB. I think much of the target panic that I have had to overcome has come from shooting bows that I was less than confident in. Osage is tried and true!
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I don't have any problems making a bow from ERC.. I'm thinking ole Pearly boy doesn't know how to make a good bow... :)
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I don't have any problems making a bow from ERC.. I'm thinking ole Pearly boy doesn't know how to make a good bow... :)
That's because you treat it right...... And stuff it in between boo and osage ;)
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Its February now, isn't ERC appreciation month over? ;D
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I've seen a lot of exploded ERC bows over the years. Just because it hasn't happened to me yet doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow
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Flint knappers may be able to relate to what I am going to say....If you work chert, agate, grainy tough stuff for a long time, then pick up obsidian, you tend to crush everything that's soft. ERC is much the same way, yep it is very fragile in some regards.....but just like tough jaspers, and soft obsidian it all has it's place.
Now if we can get Pearlie to be nice to weaker woods, maybe this thread would have died some pages back. :)
Pearlie is a fine bowyer, just don't let him loose in your China closet. :laugh:
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I agree Im a bit of a bull in the shop Brian! If we where discussing hunting a weight bow out to say 27-28", Id buy all you typed. But we are talking about a very long, very light, very short drawn bow that blew into 12 pieces, fast. I just don't think any coaxing on my part would have done a thing to change the outcome. I had pieces where the sap wood seperated, other pieces broke clean through both sap and heart wood. Plus a bunch I cant identify! That's nearly every kind of break possible in one bow.
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Pearly ya have come up with all the excuses now. Just admit it, ya can't make bows when it counts....
LMAO :)
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Zip it up ol' fart!
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Pearly ya have come up with all the excuses now. Just admit it, ya can't make bows when it counts....
LMAO :)
Due to the APPARENT and DEMONSTRATED danger inherent in bows either made of ERC by any bowyer or of any wood if made by Pearly Bows, Inc. LLC, an immediate international recall order of ALL bows matching these criterion has been issued by the PA Bow Safety Commission. This order has been issued exclusively in the interest of protecting the bow loving public from unreasonable risk. All such bows should be shipped immediately to the following address for proper quarantine and containment.
ERC and Pearly Bows RECALL Action
C/O - OneBow Safety Services, Inc. LLC
123 OneBow's House
Iwish, MO 65803
OneBow
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Omg I spit on my key board laughing so hard >:D
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Lol! Good one Eric! I wish I would have thought of that! Josh
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Onebowonder, You can't be an LLC and Inc at the same time. We're onto your ruse.
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Onebowonder, You can't be an LLC and Inc at the same time. We're onto your ruse.
We can't quibble about such trivialities - the bow loving public's safety is in jeopardy! Hurry up and get out those tubes and start shipping those bows in!!!
OneBow
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Bahahaha! Good one. LMAO!! ;D ;D ;D
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Good read folks !
Thanks
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Ya all can bet ole pearly will be sending in ah truck load:)
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Did you recently take out a nice life insurance policy for your wife as well? :o
That was quite an explosion.
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I didn't Randy, but that's a great idea! :)
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At least buy her a helmet and face guard...:)
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OH MY! I really wanted to build a deer hide backed ERC someday because it grows on my property and the locals may have used it. I love carving and whittling ERC, but I may just make walking stick out of it.
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You could make tooth picks like Pearl Dumb did:)
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Jax this thread got out of hand from the start. After a few pages of replies it doesn't all get read and people jump to conclusions having not followed the entire thread. It was never about ERC's ability to make a bow in general. It was about an overbuilt unbacked piece blowing up into 8-9 pieces at 22", including shearing the handle in half. Go ahead an make one. Make it 1.25-.50 wide with a "D" cross section and very, very long with either rawhide or silk on it. Im sure it will make a bow that way, most often. Just don't build a self bow and expect it to last long, some will, most wont.
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I will add it to my list of to bows. Thanks Pear Drum.
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I just read this entire thread and you guys crack me up. And Lordy I hope I never get on any of you guys good side like pearly obviuosly has. Poor dude getting all ate up by his buddies. I know its all in good fun and is a good laugh. I'm just glad its someone else and not me or I might have to develope a phobia or something. I have always wanted to make anERC bow but have not because of its reputation for violence. Guess we'll have to wait and see what Chris/Blackhawk comes up with. Also we may want to issue some OSHA approved safety gear prior to drawing the bow just in case.
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I have heard a lot of people talk about only using this app would on that eastern red cedar otherwise it has to be backed by sinEw ... but ive never used it. .... i do know this. Pearl drums is a pro. I been watching for at least a year now. So .... another thing is it was a good tiller cause it broke in so many different places . Ide say try a flatbow or pyramid design And sinew back it. Usually cedar cypress and juniper are like ment for sinew . Sinew pulls the light wood arou.d to a reflex thats full of snap .