Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Chief RID on January 02, 2015, 08:34:38 am
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I cut down a sassafras sapling 3 years ago, I think, that was 4" to 3" in diameter. I painted the ends and split it in half. I removed bark from the more challenging looking half round piece because I was going to start it first. It was fall and the sap was down so a lot of the cambium layer did not come off at the time but it dried out there, in the shed, until now. Both the debarked and barked staves took some propeller twist in drying. I have a good 70 inches to work with. I need you guys to help me read this wood and decide what to do? I will send pictures later today when the light is good. I have trimmed it in width, following the grain, just to square up the sides so I have a little over 2 inches limb width to work with.
Thanks in advance. This is my second bow in 20 years and both were 20 years ago. One, a honey locus broke on the long string and the elm still shots but has cracks where it lifts from a poor job of following the grain and other stresses that this novice inflicted on the poor thing. It will hang on my wall forever anyway. Help me make a hunter out of this stave if possible. I only need 50#s and any style bow will be fine. After this one we can work on the other half round if the first one holds together.
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You handicapped yourself again my friend! Honey locust is not good bow wood and sassafras is maybe worse. You will need every inch of the 70 you have to make a 50# bow stay together.
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You can get a bow out of sassafras. But it is definetly not ideal wood . You're going to have to be really patient, id leave the limbs at 2 inchs wide and make it 70inchs long
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good advice from above, ,I would like to add,, make the bow light and draw maybe 26 or so,, dont over do it,, :)
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From what I've heard, sassafras is weak in tension compared to other woods, maybe a rawhide backing will do the trick.
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Make a few bows out of red oak from the hardware store first. As already stated, sassafras is weak. You'll need practice with challenging wood (like boards of red oak) in order to make a good shooter out of sassafras.
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Discouraging words :-\. I did get out in OK light today and get some pics but after the response so far I feel I am wasting my time. Boards really are not something I want to do. I may cut a hickory and start over.
Here are some pics anyway.
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dont get discouraged .. just over build as suggested,, it is a nice piece of wood,, ,should make a nice bow,,
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If it makes you feel better...Maurice Thompson, the author of The Witchery of Archery, loved sassafras as a bow wood. I believe he was making and shooting ELB style bows but I'm not sure of the draw weight he shot.
One of my first bow woods was sassafras. That was way back when(mid 1980's). ::) I haven't used it since then but I do have a well seasoned, 5" diameter pole stave that need to be a bow. I'll try to add that to my winter project list. :-\
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I knew I had seen that about sassafras somewhere. I was always thinking a bend through the handle bow. I would like to narrow the tips but keep them thick just because I like the look. I will keep scraping and see what comes out from under the residue still on the back and getting around the knots. When I get it cleaned up on the back and shaped a little I will take more pics before I start to floor tiller. I am going to try and hit a local hot dove field tomorrow if the rain allows. They shot solid from noon till about 2:30 when I left my deer stand last Saturday.
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I made one out of sassafras last winter. 70" long and pulls around 35 @ 27". You will want to keep it as wide as possible to keep the draw weight up. I also backed it with rawhide. The wood is so soft I mostly used 60 grit sand paper for tillering instead of a scraper. Good luck.
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Make it bend in the handle to spread the stresses out the best,and dont cut off any length....if you tiller it well it should work just fine
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I did a little more scraping and found some damage in some areas, caused by me probably, on the back. I am going to continue with it and then decide after I get as far as I can or detect a fatal error or flaw. I did not realize how soft the wood is. I am sure it would have been better if I had got the bark off clean. I may try the shower steaming trick on the other half round. It is the better stave anyway. I am determined to work this one out first. Hang in there with me.
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I got all the cambium off that I need to and sanded with 100 grit to get some of the tool marks off the back. The scraper I am using it the Case sodbuster you see in the pic. I used 100 grit paper because I did not have 80 grit. Sorry about the pic. The light was poor this evening but you probably can tell I am ready to try to draw a bow on this thing. I will try to get as much working limb as possible but I am still thinking about some shaped ends of some type. I am not going to back this bow, even if it probably should be. I will go lighter in weight to get a shooter if I have too. The shallow gouges in the back sanded out just fine. The back looks intact. I am encouraged again.
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Should I burnish the back at this point and do some more finish sanding or go ahead and start to remove wood from the belly to get a floor tiller?
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Don't bother burnishing the stave, just make sure it's smooth by sanding. I would cut out the width first then work on the belly. Also, tried the shower steaming trick on my first few selfbows and none of them took... now I do all my heat corrections with a cheap heat gun.
Good luck, I'm working on a sass stave as well.
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I have had success with Sassafras. I did take all the sapwood off and chased a good thick ring on them though. The best one is in this post and is still shooting.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41491.msg555139.html#msg555139
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I have also made a sass bow . 67" 60@27 . I to ran a ring on mine . that bow was fast . till I took it to work and pulled it out of my car on a 99 degree day and was showing it to a guy and he pulled it back and broke it. But with my snap draw I feel it would of lasted me for awhile. Now if I sm going to put all that work into a bow its going to be better wood.
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Thanks for the info guys. I sure need the input. This stave has a punky line that runs through the center. I worked down the belly yesterday with my spokeshave just to see what I had after making it flat. If I have to get rid of that punky part I won't have a lot of thickness left. Could be interesting. I will try to draw out the limbs today and keep them as wide as possible for their length. I still want to make it bend through the handle too.
hunterbob. Ditto on never letting someone draw your selfbow. Been there.
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i always unstring my bow before showing to someone,, :)
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I laid out the proposed handle and limbs today. It looks pretty good as far as the grain goes and it will have a lot of unused wood because of the high crown but I will start whittling her down some now. If things go well it will be a solid 70 inches. It will be interesting to see where the string ends up on the handle. I have to go out to my storage shed and find my rasp. I will try to post some pics tomorrow if I get to remove some wood. This does smell good when working but makes me hungry. made chili and cornbread yesterday. I'm going to have a bowl right now.
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I'd go ahead and cut the hickory, if you have access to it. Then I'd make the sassafras bow while the hickory dries.
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I hear ya, Springbuck. I have some posts to cut for a couple gates and I will cut a cedar (ERC) and a hickory then but I want to wait till summer on the hickory so the bark will peel.
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Well the weather has given me too much time to think about this. I am now wondering about following the grain on the back of this thing. I want to make sure I do and it has got me wondering if I have laid this thing out right. It there something I could stain the back with to see the grain better? Old eyes and this white wood has me questioning things.
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U don't need to follow a ring, just peel the bark. Following the grain during layout just means u don't sever grain lines. Like snake in a bow.
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Exactly Blaflair2. I am trying to prevent run out on the edges. I split out this stave but I am trying to maintain that while I narrow the limbs. I would just like to see the grain of the wood better.
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Try chalk like chalk, I've used it in similar instances when I first started
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I remember back when I made my 1st bow that roughing it out was the hardest part for me. I think I have never understood some of the aspects of it and it seems to be lacking in explanation to me.
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there is going to be a little run out as you narrow parts of the bow,, just make your changes gradual,
draw a pencil line down the grain if you need to,, you can sand it off
can you send a close up pic so we can see the shape of the bow and grain,,
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There should be pretty good light this morning. I will try to get some shots of the back in the working areas hat I am concerned about. Thanks. This could definitely help.
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The pic of the handle layout shows the top as the split out side. The bottom pencil line is the handle as well as the drawn pencil line that is about 2 inches from the top. This orientation continues with all the pics. To the left is the upper and to the right is the lower limbs in this pic. The center line was drawn by stretching a string from nock to nock, center.
The pics of the upper and lower limbs should give you an idea of the grain. I used the upper split out side as my guide and ran the line on the bottom of the picture at 2 inches from it.
The pictures from the ends just show the little bit of snake involved with the stave.
Please be candid in your responses. I need all the help I can get. I am already being happy with the rasp just smoothing the hatchet marks. Once I get it roughed out I will be committed and happy. This is the tedious part for me.
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Dana, like I said in my PM, you should draw a center line down the stave and measure off that line for your limb width.
I think that since this is sassafras I'd make the limbs wide most of their length and start tapering to the tips about 10" or 12" from the end. This is an overbuilt design, ideal for woods like sassafras.
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In the pic on the tailgate it looks to me that your centerline is a straight line. It should follow the shape of the stave. Said another way it should follow the high part of the crown on the back. The only time your centerline is straight is when your stave is perfectly straight. Doesn't happen often..
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Now, I have to say that was a bit of enlightenment. If I run a center line with the split edge, one inch in to what will be about the top of the crown and then run one measured 1 inch from the center line to the other edge would I be doing what both of you have said? That makes good sense to me and solves a lot of other layout problems I was wrestling with. I will also try to follow a grain line with that center line if I can see what looks like a well defined one. Am I on the right track?
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Forget the edges, they don't always split out right. Follow the top dead center of the stave from end to end. You don't need a tape measure or a ruler, just a pencil and a set of eyes.
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Don't forget to erase the old one first. Saves confusion. Don't ask how I know :-[
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Amen to that!
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great advice from above,,make the center line follow the grain, not a straight line :) lookin good
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OK. I erased my lines and drew a center line eyeballing the grain down the center of the crown. Now , do I just mark either side of it 1 inch if I want to keep 2 inches for my limb width? I will post another pic of the center line in the morning if I can.
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Starting at the handle mark every 6" towards the tips. Then at each mark, measure out to establish the width at that point. How far out you go depends on the design route you are taking.
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This video gives you an idea. Don't follow exactly what he's doing if you don't want but this is the general idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XyJ14yeEnI
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yes mark either side of it 1 inch,,
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OK. Here is a pic from the lower limb to upper with my new center line. I will mark it one inch to either side for a 2 inch stave and get this thing laid out. Then I will shave it out.
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The farthest bend on the stave doesn't look like you followed the bend like you should with your pencil mark. Make sure you are following the crown with the bend on the stave. The pencil mark looks a little straight there to me. Might be my old eyes not seeing it well.
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Well, I shaped it up this afternoon and it sure felt good to be making some shavings with my spoke shave. It even felt familiar, even after 20 years. I guess I am ready to take the belly down some to get a floor tiller but before I jump in, let me ask. What is my next step? Oh, Dean, I hope it is an optical problem. It looks OK in real life but I see what you see from the pic. That is a tough section with the crown angling off on one side a lot more than the other with a flattened are on one side as well.
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No progress today on the bow. I spent the afternoon re-purposing an old pair pf Red Wing work boots that I had been saving. Back in the 80s when I used to wear out boots occasionally they still made a great leather boot. The handle on my elm flat bow from back then was covered with re purposed beet leather. I needed some padding for my workmate bench and they were just the ticket. Now I can continue with the bow build and not mare the back, hopefully.
I guess I will start flattening out the belly and work for a floor tiller. If anyone thinks I should decide on a handle first and whittle it out let me know, otherwise it is on to floor tillering.
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The bow has a good shape and I took off some belly today but still not down to floor tiller. I drew this thing out with a four inch handle with 1 inch above the center line and 3 inches for the fade outs. Do I measure my limbs from the center line or from the end of the fades? I hope that made sense. I will send a pic tomorrow. It is actually looking like a bow a little bit.
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I flattened the belly some more. The high crown on the back will be a waste but it is what it is. I do need some advice on my work bench too. Is there any better dogs I can make to do the holding instead of these plastic ones? Some advice from those using these benches would be appreciated. They do OK and don't mare the surface but I still could make something. I am not a woodworker at all.
It is going to take a while to get the belly down to tiller. It there a safety thickness I could mark on the side to get down to, so I can get after removing all this wood?
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3/4" is a good start with that wood. Get yourself a bolted down bench vice.
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Thanks PD. That width gives me a starting point. Just what I needed. I have a vice out in the storage shed but I like to work out in the driveway in the sunshine in this weather. It has been just beautiful here. Sunny and 64 with no wind right now. I had some more wood I had to take off because of inferior wood so I did some of that while watching the width of the limbs. The lower nock area is knotty and needs to be smoothed. That may determine some things. Things will go pretty quick from here on out so I have to be prudent with my rasp and spoke shave.
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As far as the plastic dogs are concerned, the cold truth is, those "work benches" are as weak as the dogs.
If you keep making bows, you will do yourself a big favor by arranging a more solid way to hold a stave. There are some inexpensive approaches, if that is an issue, as it is for me.
Jim Davis
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Point well taken, asharrow. If I keep on doing this I will be looking into some of those.
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Look forward to seeing you get a bow from that sassafras
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I have a cheap vise,, I just" C"clamp it to a table outside to hold a stave
but I am also comfortable taking a big rasp and working it in my hand,, or hatchet
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Had to work on a gate today. It wore me out. I have to finish it up tomorrow so I won't get anything done on the bow again.
I have enjoyed this skill work mate. It has been very useful for me and it holds a bow OK. I just thought some dog designs would improve it.
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You can make your own dogs from dowel and plywood. Find some dowel that fits the holes in the Workmate. Cut some 2" squares from the plywood. Drill some holes in the plywood and glue the dowels in. I made some for my old Workmate and they worked great til the Workmate top fell apart.
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Here are a few new pics. It has been a while. I am ready to just get on with it. I don't know if you can tell much with the photos but should I try to straighten anything before going further? It is not bending much at all yet. It has some twist but it seems to twist back at the nocks. It has some bends but as you see it kinda goes straight over the handle area. I thought pulling a line across where I am thinking the nocks should be would give some reference.
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If it's that close I wouldn't worry about string alignment till you get the bow low braced.
Leave your last 6" on each tip a little bit wide, and I bet you can make everything good without heat.
Your full width handle will help too, you can narrow it a bit if the string is favouring one side
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Sassafras is weak in tension, but great in compression. If you believe the wood database, it is similar in compression quality to eastern red cedar, but still weaker in tension. If you want to fully exploit the good compression qualities (which is generally the limiting factor in bow making), then this is a wood that would benefit from backing, with either a tension-strong or at least denser wood, or with sinew or plant fiber backings.
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I am glad to see you are back on this one. I would get it bending some before I tried any straightening. You can literally tiller sassafras with sandpaper so go slow with your tillering.
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Sassafras is weak in tension, but great in compression. If you believe the wood database, it is similar in compression quality to eastern red cedar, but still weaker in tension....
"Great." I don't think that word means what you think it means. (Tip of the hat to Mandy Petinkin.) First, red cedar is among the weakest of woods commonly used to make bows. According to the Forest Products Laboratories (whence the "Wood Database harvested its warmed over numbers), eastern red cedar has a compression strength parallel to the grain of 6,020 lbs. per square inch. According to the same primary source, sassafras has a compression strength of only 4,760.
Yes, a bow can be made of it. Tim Baker made one of white pine. But neither wood is really good for making bows.
Since I have Sassafras growing on my property, I will probably make a bow of it, if I live long enough to get a round tuit. But I have no illusions about its fitness for the task.
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Just building a bow. Slow going as you can see from the time period of this thread. I am not too worried about how it turns out. I'm learning as I go and I get stuck pretty often. Instructive words and ideas help me keep plodding along. Don't worry about the virtues of the stave. She is wide and long and might be a dog or a tomato stake but she will be my dog or stake. 8^)
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"Great." I don't think that word means what you think it means. (Tip of the hat to Mandy Petinkin.) First, red cedar is among the weakest of woods commonly used to make bows. According to the Forest Products Laboratories (whence the "Wood Database harvested its warmed over numbers), eastern red cedar has a compression strength parallel to the grain of 6,020 lbs. per square inch. According to the same primary source, sassafras has a compression strength of only 4,760.
You're right to say that in absolute terms, ERC and Sassafras are weak woods. Much weaker than osage. That's because they have low density compared to osage. In absolute terms, osage is much weaker than spring steel. So what's the point of making bows out of osage, this weak material when you have steel >:D? But for the same mass, all three woods and spring steel are in the same ball park. When density is taken into account, ERC and sassafras are strong in compression. The two graphs should clarify this, with the position of ERC and sassafras highlighted. (Data from the wood database/Forest products laboratories). The perpendicular distance from the expected value (straight regression line in the graph) shows how much better or worse any wood is compared to "the average" wood.
The first graph shows that both woods can take much higher than average compression strain than the average wood.
The second graph shows that ERC is just below average in tension, and sassafras way below average in tension (at 12% MC; at lower MC compression strength increases and tension strength decreases). That's why a crowned sassafras stave will rather break than take visible set.
Spring steel has about the same relative stiffness as ipe, european ash and guada bamboo (not on the graph). This relative stiffness tells you that for the same bow mass and bow design (thickness profile etc), a same draw length would yield exactly the same draw weight. Width of the bow is adjusted for mass (see TBB4 mass principle, first picture: bulletwood pyramid bow is much narrower than poplar pyramid bow).
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I have a good friend from IN. [Ron Prusinski ] that makes a lot of Sassafras bows, he makes elb style, usually about 70 inches and most of the time he rawhide backs them , he makes them in the low 50's and 28 inch draw, they take a little set but he shoots the crap out of them and don't seem to have much trouble with them not holding up. Good luck and keep us updated. :)
Pappy
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Will do, Pappy. Like you said , it is suppose to be really nice here this weekend. I need to get out on the porch.
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Several years ago the plant I work at had a temporary plant manager that came from a different plant in Alabama. He told me that his grandfather was full blood native american and spent the winters with his family in Alabama building bows. In the spring he would head north selling his bows. He would only use two wood species for his bows. Osage and Sassafras. He told me he still had two bows his grandfather made and would bring them for me to see after his next trip home. Never saw him again. :(
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joachimM, I recall seeing these charts before. Are they yours?
The placement of Osage on the charts has no real value, because there are no test results anywhere for dry Osage. The Forest Products Laboratories either did not do the dry tests or did not record the information. I have complained to them many times about that, but they will not do the tests.
Your second chart deals with tension values. THERE ARE NO TENSION FIGURES AVAILABLE for the huge majority of woods. There are some for some of the oaks. So I am curious how this chart was compiled.
All my objections to the charts are irrelevant to the value of making a bow of sassafras. The only reason not to is that, as has been noted in other posts, the bow must be quite wide and/or long to survive.
It's always worth a try with most any wood, just to verify the principles. It would be possible to make a bow of balsa.
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Joachim, thanks for showing those again. Question, could you label the ordinates, and give the formulas you used for setting the values so it would be possible to add other woods to the charts? Thanks!
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Asharrow, I took all information I could find from various sources (mostly the wood database) and compiled an excel "database" with raw and derived data. These I used to make these graphs.
I just shared it on my google drive for people to play along with it and add their own pet woods as they please. The graphs don't work well in google docs, so best to use MS excel or open office.
See https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3YYA3Sr_3gqMm9oWkExTjdiOTg/view?usp=sharing
There's a tab explaining some basics, which also answer some of your questions here.
Note that if you want to add more species, and want to see them in the graphs, you will need to activate the macro and add the data in the indicated tabs (see the excel sheet).
As you point out, tensile strength is not the same as the modulus of rupture (which is provided in the wood database), but the latter will give you an idea about the former. See it as a relative measure of tensile strength when comparing wood species.
Some wood species have fairly odd positions on this graph, such as eastern hophornbeam and some elm species. I don't know why this is, so take these graphs (and the underlying data) with a pinch of salt.
PlanB: the X-axis shows relative stiffness (MOE/SG), the Y-axis the max strain in elastic compression or tension (daringly assuming modulus of rupture ~= tensile strength and crushing strength ~=compression strength before set).
Formulas for settings: see the raw data tab in the sheet and the comments tab for all the requested info.
Hope this helps.
Chief RID: sorry to hijack your thread O:)
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Joachim, thanks very much for that!
(I have Libre Office, and am having to set the chart data labels and do some cell formatting, but the spreadsheet seems to work fine.)