Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lukelawrence171 on July 16, 2014, 10:33:01 pm
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I have worked with many pieces of osage orange and always wondered what these were i know there not annual growth rings and it is ok to break through one of these because i have done it many times before and they are very thin
I have heard that these rings between the annual growth rings are called moon phase rings. sudden growth spurts caused by different phases in the moon. maybe they have do do with having good weather for a week or something that would cause the tree to grow differently. and i haven't seen them between every ring i have worked.
Does anyone know what these are or have any links to articles anout the subject i just cant seem to find much ?
In the picture the line to the right was early wood that had not been scraped away yet and the arrows point to the small rings i am talking about
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Phases of the moon have nothing to do with those "lunar rings", probably has more to do with seasonal fluctuation of rain, temps, sunlight, etc.
Nothing to worry about. Ignore them as you wish, or try chasing them.
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Are you sure about that? The moon could very likely influence the way water fluctuates within the wood and the rings do seem to correspond to the length of the growing season for the tree.
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Lot's of anecdotal evidence that suggests just that Pat. Plants taking up more water during certain moon phases and less during others. Pick certain fruits or harvest certain woods at certain times during the lunar cycle. Makes sense to me. JW is right from a practical stand point. Ignore them, as they will drive you crazy (see lunatic) if you try and chase them.
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Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that. Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings". In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings. My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out. I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.
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Lunar rings seem to be a hot topic lately.
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I see that on locust fairly often. I always wondered what causes it.
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It do Clint. :)
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Here's what I posted about it in another post. I'm pretty certain after researching the topic that there is no significant research or growth data to suggest that there are lunar rings. I would consult a dendrochronologist for an expert opinion on the matter.
I've been curious about the term and idea and even felt like I missed something in my dendrology classes at Purdue so I did a little research on lunar rings. I did not find any information that was credible or useful for lunar rings with respect to annual growth rings in trees. The few publishings on the topic refer to lunar phases and growth in plants and more specifically best times to harvest timber in temperate zones. I still like the term, it sounds cool
Tracy
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Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that. Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings". In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings. My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out. I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.
It seems odd that you would be sure and yet admit you don't know what causes them.
Remember sometimes trees will completely forgo a growth ring for a year so I wouldn't necessarily say that an absence of a lunar ring is so telling.
If a tree can skip a year of growth, why not a month out of a year?
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I kind of agree with the lunar theory relating to making water more accessable. It may only show on a tree that is hanging at a certain ballance point where it can almost get the water and the full moon just raises the table just enough to make the difference.
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Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that. Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings". In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings. My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out. I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.
It seems odd that you would be sure and yet admit you don't know what causes them.
Remember sometimes trees will completely forgo a growth ring for a year so I wouldn't necessarily say that an absence of a lunar ring is so telling.
If a tree can skip a year of growth, why not a month out of a year?
Pray tell how one would determine that a tree had skipped a year's growth ring--cut it down and look at the rings, then cut it down again the next year. Har, Har! It is to laugh!
And not know what causes something has no bearing on knowing what DOES NOT cause something.
There is a bit of lunacy involved in bowyering though. ;D
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thanks for all the input guys you might want to check out this web page and a few others it seems to be relevant to the subject
http://itsgreenday.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-moon-affects-plant-growth.html
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I kind of agree with the lunar theory relating to making water more accessable. It may only show on a tree that is hanging at a certain ballance point where it can almost get the water and the full moon just raises the table just enough to make the difference.
i like what you stated here i think that it is probably the most scientifically backed conclusion
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I have a method I use for watering my lawns in So Cal where it is very dry. I soak the lawn and then don't water again until it start to loose some vibrancy. This forces the roots to go deeper chasing the water. I can go all summer with 3 waterings and maybe 2 for the entire winter. If the moon were to raise the water table just enough for a tree with marginal access to water the roots would chase that water back down showing us as a growth spurt. I vote in favor of lunar rings.
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i also found this article id you go to pg 473 4.2 it talks about what it has to do with compression strength still looking for something about lunar growth rings
http://www.howplantswork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/zurcher.pdf
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Well, here is a little science for those willing to yield to logic and reason:
http://www.howplantswork.com/2009/08/16/does-the-moon-affect-plants-part-3-gravitational-effects/
Wives tale tellers beware.
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Jim, I think that is slightly different. I admit I have never given it any thought before but affecting ground water level is different than affecting the tree itself as suggested in the article. It may not have any affect on ground water either for that matter.
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I too have done some reading on this. Most things written are based on less than scientific evidence. Having said that, it seems as though throughout history and across many cultures certain practices were strongly tied to the moon phases. I can't cite the study, but certain artisans who make wooden musical instruments harvest the wood for these only at specific times tied to moon phases believing that the wood has a different resonance based on the moon phase in which it is harvested. Some beliefs of this type have been shown to actually have some merit. The woods density has been shown to be higher when cut at certain times over others. How this relates to lunar rings is speculation, but the rings seem to be layed down in many cases in an organized fashion. As though a cycle of some type is at play. The moon phase seems to be a reasonable explanation to me.
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Ground water can only be affected if hydraulicaly connected to the ocean so only near coastal regions. That does make sense.
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Looking at your pic and diagram I see a color difference and a boundary where the arrows are. I think that is more of an environmental factor affecting growth than lunar phases.
My question is this; which phase or phases are responsible for visible lunar rings during the growing months?
New moon, full moon, or somewhere in between? Waxing or waning?
I realize that the moon affects water and those things made of water such as animals. I'm just not sure how moon phases(short time frame) can have such a large visible impact on annual growth rings. Seems like you would need to examine a cross section of multiple growth rings under the microscope and compare moon phase dates for each particular year with changes within the annual growth rings.
It is an interesting concept and would like to know more about it. I'm not convinced that it has any value to the quality of wood for bows.
Tracy
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The difference between low and high tide where I live is about 4 metres. I know it is less in some places and a lot more in others.
Logic seems to tell me that if something the size of the moon influences something the size of the ocean by a mere 4 metres, and the amount of water in a tree by comparison is who-knows-how-much less than the ocean, it makes sense that the effect would be nil or non existent.
I somewhat agree that a full moon has an effect on animals, but is there evidence that this is because of the water content in their bodies? Seems like a massive increase in light during nighttime would probably have more of an effect than some kind of gravitational pull on H2O molecules... and even if its true, you'd have to prove how that affects behaviour in animals, on a biological level.
Reading SLIMBOB's post kind of makes me think the moon DOES affect trees and animals, but maybe it's the light? It is afterall SUN light, the same as what a plant gets during the day.
If you had extra sunlight during the night with which to lay down wood, at whatever rate, wouldn't that explain it?
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The tree clearly has to basically "paint" those micro-layers down and there has to be something that governs what separates each one into a tiny replica of a full yearly ring. The tree doesn't just lay down an amorphous blob of wood.
The number of those rings corresponds to moon cycles to a far more precise degree than any other thing that is likely to cause that. They don't show up as "daily rings" or rings of high rainfall or sunny days.
Calculate the length of your growing season and then count those rings and see how accurately the count reflects the months.
Bamboo harvesters note the wildly fluctuating moisture levels in a culm over the various phases of the moon.
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In our 'enlightened age' we are very quick to dismiss things that have been known about for an awfully long time.
More or less everything on this planet is affected by the moon phases. Plants, animals, fish, the oceans, rivers, groundwater and us.
It's common sense if you think about it logically. ;)
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Looking at your pic and diagram I see a color difference and a boundary where the arrows are. I think that is more of an environmental factor affecting growth than lunar phases.
My question is this; which phase or phases are responsible for visible lunar rings during the growing months?
New moon, full moon, or somewhere in between? Waxing or waning?
I realize that the moon affects water and those things made of water such as animals. I'm just not sure how moon phases(short time frame) can have such a large visible impact on annual growth rings. Seems like you would need to examine a cross section of multiple growth rings under the microscope and compare moon phase dates for each particular year with changes within the annual growth rings.
It is an interesting concept and would like to know more about it. I'm not convinced that it has any value to the quality of wood for bows.
Tracy
the reason your seeing color difference between the boundary and the arrows are is because there is some early wood growth that i haven't scrapes away yet and the stuff to the left is one ring of late wood
So whats that between them ?
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I guess I'll throw my pebble into the pool .
I've cut a lot of osage, a lot in one river bottom .
I have cut several in one small lactation that were close to the same age ( counted growth rings) and have had at least one or two with very large amounts of lunar rings , trees within a few yards had little or no lunar rings , also ring density veryied in the trees , my best guess would be genetics , similar to animals . Like a runt of the litter only opposit or a catfish that grows extrimaly fast ( the big blue cat that was caught a few years ago that everyone guessed at being well over fifty and when it died they determined was under twenty .
Just my two cents .
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I've seen that on osage. Looks like early wood to me. I take a scraper to it and it is gone. Jawge
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Someoene gave me another hypothisis to look at. Different insects are active at different phases of the moon. Insects will often single out a tree. When stressed by insects some trees and plants respond by putting out chemicals of thier own. Very hard to prove a correlation to these rings and the moon.
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Careful George, I made that same observation the other day and I was dragged to the wood shed. I still think you are right.
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I'm chuckling at some of the wild n crazy "speculations" being thrown out here...my two cents...who gives a shiite ..if they are in the stave then cool..if they are not then that's cool too..its osage..its all good,and just make the damn bow :P ::) :laugh:
Sounds like some of yins guys are bored n got nuttin better to do but let your brains n mouths run wild..lol :laugh:.... If your bored get off here n go make a bow >:D :laugh:
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I´ve seen lunar rings in osage, black locust, elm and ash. Above all if growthrings are thick.
If the growing of a tree could be seen as years, it is quite logical it could be seen as months too.
We should take care not to mix up 2 things: lunar rings in wood are not the same as lunar phases. Lunar phases is an astrological concept related to the growing of plants etc.... It is scaled into the 4 elements: fire, earth, air and water, f.e. if moon is in cancer it is water. My wife, as more and more gardeners, is considering the lunar phases when planting f.e. strawberries, she is looking for the moon in fire(aries, leo, saggitarius). Fire is related to fruits and blossoms, if you go for strawberries with a water- moon(cancer, scorpio, pisces) you' ll get less and small fruits but big leaves. Water is related to the leaves.
This is really working, I´ve experienced it since years.
Nearby is a sawmill, cutting wood related to the lunar phases. They' ve "lunar conifers" only.
In past times it was much more common to cut wood according to the position of the moon.
I remember the Al Herrin newsletters posting dates when to cut bow- staves based on old Cherokee wisdom.
This is not logical in a scientific sense, old wisdom is based on experiences could be done by everyone, you don' t need a highly scientific education and a super expensive research- lab.
I´m cutting bow- staves by feel during late fall, maybe my dates are according to some "lunar dates". Would be interesting to check this.
I don' t think anybody has ever tried to follow lunar rings as the back of a bow?
This is not at all earlywood as we usually understand it, maybe there is a wood of the fallen moon and a wood of the rising moon?
I'm new to the PM- forum, cause I see heavily decreasing traffic on the PaleoPlanet and found some of my PP- friends here, so I just joint in.
Michael
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That's what I meant to say...
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a couple of you guys stated that the rings might be caused by the early wood '
here is another pic of a different bow im working right now from a different tree that seems to have these rings. and one weird thing is that at different angles their not noticeable the second pic you cant really see them
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As a bowyer, I believe they are inconsequential. If you chase an annual ring perfectly, you wont see violated lunar rings, and if you do violate a lunar ring...no big deal.
As a biologist, I think the question is fascinating, and I have some ideas about the mechanisms behind what in my mind is clearly the mark of the moon in these sub-annual vascular tissue patters. Maybe I will take the time to articulate them at some point...but got bows to make today.
As a human, I feel this touches on a much deeper topic. Science vs traditional wisdom. Like Mike, pointed out, we are quick to throw out the cumulative knowledge of our ancestors, for the warm fuzzy feeling of "scientific fact". I worked in the scientific field long enough to realize that there is a lot of junk science being conducted and published...particularly in the messy life sciences, such as biology. What is frustrating is that smart folks will for example say, "scientific measure says the moon's gravity is too weak to affect plants, therefore it does not affect plants - there you go, plain and simple irrefutable science, so I am right".
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Well said!
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Yes sir, a lot we don't understand that science has yet to explain, hell of a lot of fun trying to figure it out sometimes.
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Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that. Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings". In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings. My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out. I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.
It seems odd that you would be sure and yet admit you don't know what causes them.
Remember sometimes trees will completely forgo a growth ring for a year so I wouldn't necessarily say that an absence of a lunar ring is so telling.
If a tree can skip a year of growth, why not a month out of a year?
Pray tell how one would determine that a tree had skipped a year's growth ring--cut it down and look at the rings, then cut it down again the next year. Har, Har! It is to laugh!
And not know what causes something has no bearing on knowing what DOES NOT cause something.
There is a bit of lunacy involved in bowyering though. ;D
Trees skipping a year are well documented. The reason they do so is easily explained. Hard to believe you are being serious with your scoffing.
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I've seen that on osage. Looks like early wood to me. I take a scraper to it and it is gone. Jawge
I agree with George. See it all the time in BL, as the early wood rings are a little thicker (at least in my stash) than other woods, so it is easy to leave a little behind when chasing rings. Use a scraper and get rid of it - or wait till the end and it will come off when sanding.
Russ
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Yes Pat, I am pretty sure of that. Because two trees side by side will vary in "lunar rings". In fact within one tree there will be growthrings without lunar rings and growthrings with lunar rings. My understanding of astrophysics may not be similar to that of Dr. Brian May, but I do know that the old moon she keeps a going, year in and year out. I'll pick the fruit when it is ripe, not when lunar rituals tell me it is opportune.
It seems odd that you would be sure and yet admit you don't know what causes them.
Remember sometimes trees will completely forgo a growth ring for a year so I wouldn't necessarily say that an absence of a lunar ring is so telling.
If a tree can skip a year of growth, why not a month out of a year?
Pray tell how one would determine that a tree had skipped a year's growth ring--cut it down and look at the rings, then cut it down again the next year. Har, Har! It is to laugh!
And not know what causes something has no bearing on knowing what DOES NOT cause something.
There is a bit of lunacy involved in bowyering though. ;D
Trees skipping a year are well documented. The reason they do so is easily explained. Hard to believe you are being serious with your scoffing.
I'd like to see that documentation.
And I would like to see an explanation as to why some growth rings (a representation of a year) show "lunar rings" and yet others within the same tree do not. Did the moon fail to generate it's cosmic force part of the time? I think we can count on the constancy of it's tidal pull, it's albedo, and it's periodicity. Exactly what varies in the moon that the tree does or does not respond to in order to create these so called lunar rings? If there is a cause and effect, why does it sometimes cause it in one growthring but not the next growthring, or why in one tree, but not every tree? The mere randomness argues against causality.
Ultimately, this conversation applies as well as arguing about which catfood Shroedinger's cat prefers. I ignore "lunar rings" until they show up in the fadeouts in a bow. Then they are things of beauty, magnifying and intensifying the innately wonderful patterns in the wood.
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http://www.conifers.org/topics/oldest.htm
Here's just one link that broadly touches on the idea of missed growing seasons and even multi ring growing seasons for some trees.
I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe that anyway. If a tree is too stressed to lay down a ring then it won't. That doesn't happen too often but it does happen.
As to why a tree may or may not produce lunar rings or why it might and it's neighbour doesn't can be due to a wide variety of reasons.
different soil, age of the tree, crown height, foliage, bug infestation etc. etc.
Just common sense stuff that favors or does not favor growth.
I think it's a simple as the moon enhancing the flow of water up the tree like a mini-spring each month and if the other factors favoring growth are there to make the most of that, the tree lays down a mini growth ring in that month.
I mean it's pretty clear that those are in fact mini-growth rings identical in every way except total width.
You can read up on plenty of articles referencing the ancient cedar trees of the Niagara Escarpment missing the odd growing season due to the unfavorable conditions for growth.
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I'll ask the Arborist I work with tomorrow. I hope he can give an answer, but I'm not holding my breath. He is a tree nerd, so I bet he can give at least some insight. I guess better to be a tree nerd than all of us Bow Nerds.
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Luke, looks to me like you missed several rings when chasing.
Everyone loves a good flying saucer, big foot, good ghost story or lunar ring story. :)
Jawge
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You actually think they are a bunch of fine yearly rings Jawge?
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I know these rings, often seen them. Esp. in elm. Sometime called monthly rings sometime lunar rings.
But sorry folks never read so much nonsens before in just one thread!
Why the hell should a tree care about the shadow from earth on the moon (moon phases).
The university of Zürich in Switzerland did long experiments to proof that hype about moon phase timber. Nothing is true about that!
High tide / low tide
The moon causes the tides. This is only possible because of the huge mass of the ocean. A tree or the water in a tree has not by far a mass that is necessary to get some reactions caused by the moon.
Myth are myth! for some people it is good to have myth, but they are myth!
Just my thing, excuse my English! Not easy to express complex things in an other language.
I apologize if someone feels affected!
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+1 simson, except the moon phase is the moon orbiting the earth, new moon being when it's completely "in front" of us relative to the sun, and new moon "behind." Different phases are different angles of observation giving us a view of more/less of the illuminated area of the moon.
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WOW, the only moon phase I worry about is the full one,cause I am scared of the Wolf man. ;) Sorry just thought I would lighten things up a bit. :) Seriously,seen them and don't worry about them as long as I am in a good ring,it does sometimes fool you into thinking you ant till you get the light just right. :)
Pappy
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Hmmm, it seems like there is some debate between the moon as a source of light versus the way the moon works on the water.
Nobody is talking about them being a problem, they are just asking what they are.
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It doesn't appear after reading that the moon could have enough effect on ground water to measure. I do like the thought of moonbeams in my bows though.
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Pat, Luke has a tough stave there. I've gone up and down an osage stave to get one ring.
Jawge
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Most of the pics I've seen of the lunar rings seem to be easy to see. Why not count them. And see how many full moons there are in a given growth cycle of the tree in your area. Just wait till the tree starts budding and then just when the leaves are turning before dormancy. Seems like there are more rings than full moons but I don't have any staves with lunate rings. Things seem to grow too slowly out in the desert.
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Pat, Luke has a tough stave there. I've gone up and down an osage stave to get one ring.
Jawge
That wasn't the question. I just wondered if you think those are 9 or so full years of growth or the smaller layers of one full year.
Steve, It would be hard to measure that for sure but the water table is massive in areas.
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In the original picture I see a contrast in the annual growth ring. Is it a "lunar" ring? If so, what characteristic(s) determine it to be a lunar ring and not evidence of water uptake from a rain after a month of dry conditions? A change in soil pH? Weather patterns? Tree damage?
Too many other variables that could potentially explain the variations within an annual growth ring and like I said before it is an interesting concept, but it's just lacking any solid evidence that the moon is to blame for the blemish.
If the term lunar rings is cool and inspires you to make a bow then go for it :)
Tracy
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More often than not the number of smaller rings correspond to the length of the growing season in months.
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Look at Elm and Hackberry. The mini rings are clearly visible and seem to correspond to the moons cycles, not periods of plenty. I think a visual inspection alone discounts that as THE cause. As Carson said yesterday, as a bowmaker they are of little concern, but as someone who has an interest in the earth sciences, very interesting!
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Good point Bob
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I wonder why just this topic has such a lot of traffic.
For to be serious, every bowyer denying the existence of these "rings" should easily not call Saul but the closest eye specialist. If we could call these rings within the growthrings "lunar rings" is another question. Above all in elm an almost blind one has to see them. If the growing season is leaving its marks as the "non growing season" it is almost logical that they are more detailed marks like the "lunar rings". Life is not just "yes" or "not".
I find it heavily careless to ignore traditional wisdom, sorry but high tech science is to often acting like a god. How boring would life be without traditional wisdom, without myth and magic, trials and errors. I don' t believe any experienced bowyer stating all his work is based on rationality and science. Above all tillering is much more a feeling than everything else?
Simson, I don' t know why you try to affect others here, but as far as I know the Bavarians still believe the Earth to be a disk and everything is based on weiss beer. Don' t worry, I' m native Bavarian too.
For to quote the "spacemen. net"(http://www.raumfahrer.net/astronomie/sonnensystem/mond_einfluss.shtml)
.......Forscher der Technischen Hochschule in Zürich haben jetzt belegen können, dass es in Bäumen auch Ebbe und Flut gibt. Die Biologen haben dafür tropische Bäume untersucht. Mit einer Apparatur maßen sie den Durchmesser der Pflanzen auf Hundertstel Millimeter genau. Das Ergebnis zeigt ein schwellen und schrumpfen der Bäume im Rhythmus der Gezeiten. Der Zweck dieses Naturschauspiels ist aber noch ungeklärt.............
Translated: researchers of the Technical University of Zurich could prove now(2002) that there is even low and high tide within trees. Biologists researched tropical trees. They measured the diameter of the trees at a hundredth of millimeters. The result is confirming the swelling and shrinking of the trees corresponding the rhythm of the tides. Still the sense of this natural spectacle is unclear......................
The point is that Simsons source is the University of Zurich, my source is the Technical University of Zurich. Two tempels of infallibility( of the same town) came to just opposite conclusions!? So far science.
It would be interesting to make bows of "staves" cut corresponding to some lunar phases and to compare them to "non lunar" staves.
I guess I' ll not find the spare time to do it.
Michael
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Pat M, to me they look like narrow full growth rings with much punky, early rings exposed.
I didn't count how many there were.
But, again, the back is not one continuous growth ring. IMHO.
Jawge
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For anyone who is interested i just finshed the bow in all of the pictures and i am working on posting it right now so check the thread if you really want to see how crazy that stave really was.
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I have cut and split my fair share of Osage staves in my life. Up in the hundred's and never heard of lunar rings before. Not saying there isn't but looks like to me thin violated growth rings. I have seen growth rings get skinnier close to knots then widen out going away from a knot. Would of liked to seen the end of the stave to see how the growth rings were running on the stave.
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Dean and Jawge,
I am mildly amazed that two guys with your experience would see things (or not see things) like that. Even if you don't want to call them or believe that they are lunar rings you guys seem to genuinely not see them.
Somebody posted an end cut of an Osage stave with fat regular growth rings and the micro rings within each large ring stood out like a sore thumb.
Try to let go of repeating that the back is not one growth ring etc. That's not what we are discussing.
Here is the other thread although the pictures are no longer visible.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45990.0.html
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Pat M, so if you look at Luke's first photo way back in the beginning of this thread,
I have seen those little tiny rings on osage and have scraped them away.
Is that what you want me to see?
Then, yes, I see them.
Jawge
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Is this the real Jawge? I'm asking you if you think they are smaller parts of one large ring or actual individual yearly rings.
Forget about chasing rings for a second and just think of it as a chunk of wood.
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I wonder why just this topic has such a lot of traffic.
For to be serious, every bowyer denying the existence of these "rings" should easily not call Saul but the closest eye specialist. If we could call these rings within the growthrings "lunar rings" is another question. Above all in elm an almost blind one has to see them. If the growing season is leaving its marks as the "non growing season" it is almost logical that they are more detailed marks like the "lunar rings". Life is not just "yes" or "not".
I find it heavily careless to ignore traditional wisdom, sorry but high tech science is to often acting like a god. How boring would life be without traditional wisdom, without myth and magic, trials and errors. I don' t believe any experienced bowyer stating all his work is based on rationality and science. Above all tillering is much more a feeling than everything else?
Simson, I don' t know why you try to affect others here, but as far as I know the Bavarians still believe the Earth to be a disk and everything is based on weiss beer. Don' t worry, I' m native Bavarian too.
For to quote the "spacemen. net"(http://www.raumfahrer.net/astronomie/sonnensystem/mond_einfluss.shtml)
.......Forscher der Technischen Hochschule in Zürich haben jetzt belegen können, dass es in Bäumen auch Ebbe und Flut gibt. Die Biologen haben dafür tropische Bäume untersucht. Mit einer Apparatur maßen sie den Durchmesser der Pflanzen auf Hundertstel Millimeter genau. Das Ergebnis zeigt ein schwellen und schrumpfen der Bäume im Rhythmus der Gezeiten. Der Zweck dieses Naturschauspiels ist aber noch ungeklärt.............
Translated: researchers of the Technical University of Zurich could prove now(2002) that there is even low and high tide within trees. Biologists researched tropical trees. They measured the diameter of the trees at a hundredth of millimeters. The result is confirming the swelling and shrinking of the trees corresponding the rhythm of the tides. Still the sense of this natural spectacle is unclear......................
The point is that Simsons source is the University of Zurich, my source is the Technical University of Zurich. Two tempels of infallibility( of the same town) came to just opposite conclusions!? So far science.
It would be interesting to make bows of "staves" cut corresponding to some lunar phases and to compare them to "non lunar" staves.
I guess I' ll not find the spare time to do it.
Michael
Absolutely dead on that man. +1000 ;)
Temples of infalabilty... :)
Good to read one of your posts again Redhawk.
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Pat M,
Guess I wasn't clear. Sorry.
"Pat M, to me they look like narrow full growth rings with much punky, early rings exposed.
I didn't count how many there were.
But, again, the back is not one continuous growth ring. IMHO.
Jawge"
Once again. When I've seen them I considered them full growth rings.
But that doesn't matter.
I just want a full, continuous growth ring for the back. I'm a bowyer and am tenacious about that.
I'm skeptical about the moon's gravity affecting tree growth.
But what do I know? I'm just a poor farm boy still living in the 50's.
I shouda listened to you, Slimbob. :)
Jawge
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"In view of the extremely weak gravitational forces, which came into question as an
explanation for circadian fluctuations, it is relatively unlikely that a direct gravita-
tional effect is responsible for these “tree and trunk tides”. "
Seems he's not quite so sure.
Here is Zurcher's study for those who would like to read it and make up their minds.
http://www.howplantswork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/zurcher.pdf
Jawge
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PatM
Are these the lunar rings you are talking about? The little white lines in the early wood?
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That's them. Little white lines in the LATE wood.
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The little white lines may be in the late wood but they exactly correspond with the initial early growth in spring.
I don't consider the white line as the ring, it's both the light and the dark portion together that makes the mini-growth ring. .
Now count those smaller rings, how many do you see and what is the typical growing season in months for Osage?
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Does ANYONE really believe that a growthring in a ring porous wood will only lay down xylem and phloem in the early wood and the rest is impregnible and solid lignin???
That's like saying the tree only needs a vascular system in the spring, the rest of the year it holds it's breath!
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I for one don't believe that. I have in fact read that what we have traditionally believed to be "dead" heart wood is in fact not dead at all and does serve some vascular function that diminishes with each successive year as a new layer of wood is laid down on top of it. To me, the point you are making JW is the point. The early/ late wood pattern in a growth ring correlates with the growing season. I believe that the growing season is not just based on temperatures alone but photoperiod and a host of other criteria. Is the Moons influence not a part of that criteria? The manner in which the vascular tissue is laid down in cycles seems consistent with the moons cycles. It just seems odd to me the sense of incredulity over the mere mention of this possibility.
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Exactly. The wood basically replicates a year cycle on a smaller scale. What is switching that cycle on and off so that it replicates the same pattern?
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It is once again getting into treacherous waters. You can believe anything you want, For or against Lunar rings. In the end we all need to take a step back and admit that we really don't know, and most people aren't going to change their minds about what they believe they are. I lean towards yes, they are caused by the Lunar cycle. I have noticed over the years that fishing by the lunar cycle is accurate more times than not.
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Osage trees are usually the last trees to sprout their leaves here in Oklahoma and its usually late April when that happens. If my eyes are correct their are 5 to 6 of these lunar rings in the latewood pictured in Deans stave. So if these are lunar rings and being laid down monthly in the latewood does that mean that every bit of the true earlywood is laid down in the first couple of weeks and from there on it is all latewood. This would have to be true if you believe these are lunar rings considering the length of the growing season. I ask this question because I have never really been able to find a true answer as to when the early wood stops and the latewood starts laying down.
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How long is the growing season there?
After cutting several Elm trees in the early part of the year and observing the progress of growth it doesn't appear to take the tree very long to lay down the very porous early wood.
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Usually 5 months in a typical year. Ive yet to cut a tree after August that the bark wasnt already stuck down and Ive cut a few that have already shut down as early as mid July, that was during a drought year though. It would be interesting to know just how long it takes the earlywood to lay down and when the transition is made to latewood.
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I see more mini-rings in the stave Dean posted. Where is he from?
I doubt it takes more than a month for the early wood, because it is also a lunar ring. >:D
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My question is, is that what really happens. Is there always a clearly identifiable point at which early wood production ends and late wood production begins? I have seen many staves where it appears as though the trees early attempts at producing latewood were not as successful as the attempts later in the growing season.
I do want add that this is how I have interpreted what I have seen. I am willing to be wrong if in fact there is evidence to the contrary.
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Literature on that subject indicates that early wood formation is initiated as the tree buds begin to open and latewood begins forming when the leaves are fully developed.