Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Colindemo on July 07, 2014, 04:45:06 pm
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Hey All,
I have been posting some questions in different sections about making my first warbow so I thought it would be better to just make one build-along where I can post my progress and ask for advice. I always enjoy reading trough build-alongs and I hope you guys will enjoy reading mine.
Like I said it's my first warbow and I don't want to aim for too heavy a draw-weight, so it's going to be around 80# which is probably all my tillering jig can handle. Did i mention i'm doing this on a tight budget? I will give a short review of what I've already done and what I want to end up with:
I bought an ash log and I stripped the bark, the first year ring is nice and thick so i'm going to use that one as the backing. I drew the dimensions on the backing, it's going to be 4cm (sorry for using the metric system but I am European after all ;)) the first 20cm to each side of the center is 4cm and then I will let the width evely taper to the tips which are going to be rounded and 15mm in diameter.
This is about as far as I am now because I had to wait for some tools to come in by packet service. Just to give you an idea of what i'm working with: the only electric tool i have available is a jigsaw. The rest is all second hand and probably not top notch. Nonetheless, I'm going to give it my best shot and post my progress as I go. Hope you enjoy it and I'll check in everyday to take a look at your comments and/or questions.
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Here is the ash stave on the day it came in
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Hey...I've seen that picture before ;)
It's Jorik here, from the Facebook group :) Keep us posted!
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Hey Jorik, nice to see you on this forum! I'll try to post my progress here as well as on the Facebook page so you get to enjoy it twice
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Right, so today i had some spare time and was able to reduce my stave to something resembling a bow. I got the (very) rough dimensions cut out but still way to thick to start tillering. I have encountered some problems when my drawknife cut away a little bit to much wood at the middle of the bow and i might opt to go with a stiff handle but we'll see as we go. For now enjoy the pictures, it won't change your life but always nice to see a bow in the making right?
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Stiff handles don't work with warbows ;) for a start it wouldn't be allowed at official warbow meetings as warbows are full compass, but more importantly you need the whole limb working if you want the warbow draw at 32".
Have you read Jaro's buildalong on the warbow website for a heavy ash warbow?
If not it's here
http://www.theenglishwarbowsociety.com/Making_a_whitewood_longbow.html
Good luck!
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Stiff handles don't work with warbows ;) for a start it wouldn't be allowed at official warbow meetings as warbows are full compass, but more importantly you need the whole limb working if you want the warbow draw at 32".
Have you read Jaro's buildalong on the warbow website for a heavy ash warbow?
If not it's here
http://www.theenglishwarbowsociety.com/Making_a_whitewood_longbow.html
Good luck!
Not to hijack, but what is benefit of flipping the bow "upside down" for tillering in the link you provided?
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Dunno what Jaro's reasons are, but I always do it that way because I can see the bend and movement better. In my mind it replicates an actual draw more closely. I don't even start like he does, I hang it from the string even on long string tillering. Everybody has different ways though. Some guys hate it that way round, and it does make getting accurate weights tricky.
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It has been a while but i'm still working on it. I have shortened the bow some 6 inches because 80" seemed a little excessive. I'm tillering now and currently at 25" and 60#. Does this tiller seem right to you guys? I'm feeling the limb on the left of the picture seems stiff but it seems to reverse when i turn it around. Any thoughts?
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I'd say left limb looks to be bending a bit much at the tip, right looks a tad stiff.
If you do the CD test (Hold up a CD (other round objects are also available ;D) in front of the pic) it shows the potential hinge near the left tip.
BTW I work in inches for length and mm for width thickness. I think cm are the spawn of the devil and not an engineering unit.
Yeah 80" does seem a tad long, but taking off 6" seems a bit drastic, I'd have thought loose 4" then there is still a little wriggle room.
That's still on a long string isn't it? If so, get it braced immediately else you will be in danger of coming in underweight.
Del
(BTW the above is all just my opinion and you are welcome to take it or leave it, but please don't tell me I'm wrong, I got thoroughy sick of that on another thread :o)
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You're completely wrong Del.
*ducks out of the way*
Only kiddin'.
One thing I will add is that with ash, longer is better. Don't try and treat it like yew or a laminate bow, which can handle pretty short lengths for a full draw, keep it as long as you possibly can until you're done, shoot the thing in a bit, then if you feel it needs to be shorter you can pike it afterwards. That's my experience using English ash - dunno where this is from so you might find different results.
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@Willis This is Dutch ash and seeing as our climate is similar to England i would say it's about the same.
@Del the cat It was 80" so i'm left with 74 which is about as tall as myself so it's not getting too short i think. There was a natural bend in the stave at around 37# and i decided to make that my center which left me with 74". Also, i'm thinking of reducing the weigth a bit because i drew a 80# warbow and it was a bit too much imo, i think i need to build up a little more muscle in my shoulder which i will do training with this one. I have another Ash stave standing ready which i will make taller and with a heavier draw weigth.
Thanks for your advice! I will look into that suspected hinge and after that i'll start on getting my horn nocks shaped and after they are on the bow i'll continue tillering. I'll keep you all posted
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Altight, i finished shaping the nocks. They are not super pretty but i don't realy care ;) They are in boiling water now and i'm waiting for them to become pliable enough to work them into the bow. Then i will let them cool off so they shape to the tips after which i will glue them into the bow. I read that epoxy is the best glue to use so i hope it's available somewhere nearby
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Superglue for horn nocks. Every time!
What are you using boiling water for? The normal procedure is to simply drill them out, shape the bow tip to match the drill bit and glue them on.
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I read somewhere that, for a perfect fit, you boil the nocks to make them pliable then when you press them on the bow tightly they fit even better. And i must say i've done that now and they seem to fit perfectly so i guess it didn't hurt
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Interesting. Never heard that or tried it. Will give it a go next time!
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Another update, i've been busy today. Someone mentioned that before i heat treat the belly of the bow, I should first smear some honey on the belly of the bow. That way the sugar in the honey could soak into the wood and cristalize upon heating it. I used white spirit to help the honey soak into the wood and i'm going to let it sit overnight and heat treat it tomorrow. This is a totally new concept to me (it's called malming). I couldn't even find any info on it on this forum so i'm really curious how it will turn our, i'll find out tomorrow.
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I like this thread, I'm learning loads of new stuff from your process!
By the way, why are you heating the belly? Is the bow taking lots of set? If not, heat treating isn't really necessary!
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It has taken a reasonable amount of set while tillering already and i certainly don't want any more and hopefully this prevents it
I have finished the bow now and it draws about 70-80# on 30", still need to weigh it accarately but i think i've come close to my target weight of about 80# on 31". I can't draw the bow to 31" at this point because my tillering jig isn't long enough. I have finished the bow with some beeswax and i will add some Danish oil later. The leather on the handle is just something i had laying around so that needs to be changed as well when i get some more and better leather.
For now, i'm really happy with the result and can't wait to try shooting it!
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some pics
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Very nice indeed! Well done mate. Tips might be moving a bit much, giving you a slightly whip-ended tiller, but as long as they're not chrysalling, and you think you've avoided actual hinges then it should be ok.
Be careful using things like oil and wax on ash - they work great on woods like yew, but ash really loves to suck up moisture which will give you even more set than before! Get a good modern finish on it like varnish to seal the moisture out, then you can dull the finish using beeswax if you want. It's not traditional, but if you want it to last a long time and shoot as well as possible then you'll want to avoid it taking more set as a result of humidity etc. Obviously if your goal is just to keep things as "primitive" as possible then avoid the modern finishes, but the bow will end up taking quite a lot of set if there is moisture in the air.
When I was getting advice on making ash warbows from Jaro (pretty much the best there is when it comes to heavy ash bows) he told me to keep my hands constantly clean and dry as even sweat from your skin can affect an ash bow while working on it, and every time you take a break from tillering stick it on a radiator so it thoroughly dries out. You don't need to do any of that with most other woods but ash really seems to hate getting wet!
Anyway, nice looking bow and I bet you can't wait to crack on with the next one!
P.S. Warbows don't have leather grips, just bare wood ;)
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Thx for the info! I did want it to be as traditional as possible so i refrained from using any type of modern finish. This bow is the first longbow i ever made so i don't expect it to shoot great nor do i expect that it's an exceptionally durable bow.
For my next bow i have a similar ash log standing ready and i will try to use your advice during the next bow-making process to hopefully and up with less set. Also, i'm thinking about adding some slight recurves to the tips but i will only do that when i have a new bow made so that when i break it i'll still have a bow to shoot with other than my flatbows.
p.s. I know about warbows not having a leather grip but i think it looks cooler and i had some laying around anyways so i thought: why not?
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Well for your first longbow, to end up with a very reasonable tiller AND a draw weight around 80# is super impressive! Well done dude, hope you enjoy shooting it!
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I think it looks pretty darn nice too!
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WillS - what about Elm, is it they same when it comes to sucking up moisture?
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Dunno! Never had the chance to work with it!
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Ash doesn't 'suck up' moisture anymore than other woods....what it does do is take an awful long time to get very dry. It's like hickory in liking to be dry. I would suggest that an MC of 6 -8% is ideal. Plus unless you are working in somewhere with a very low r.h. the bow isn't likely to be aiming for an EMC of less than 10 -12%. So you have to do something anda hotbox etc between tillering is a very good idea.
It's well worth heat treating ash - it transforms it. The real coup de grace is trapping the back heavily. The reason ash takes so much set is that it's compression strength is nowhere near its tension strength. Go and do some bend tests one on a rectangular slat and one on a slat that has it's back trapped and belly heat treated. I found significant differences.
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@Mike - "The real coup de grace is trapping the back heavily". Can you please explain trapped/trapping?
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Trapping is the process of chamfering the edges of the back so that the back of the bow itself is thinner than the bow. Turns the bow sort of into a trapezoid shape, that you then round.
Mike, what about the really heavy bows made of ash that follow rough Mary Rose profiles, so no trapping at all? Most of the top bowyers who are working with ash aren't heat treating, or trapping and turn out super heavy bows (well over 140#) that have almost no set (by which I mean around 0.5" to 1")
Is this down to different types/quality of ash, or is it skill as a bowyer or something else? Perhaps it goes back to Del's question regarding the age of the ash tree (sapling/mature)? I know that the ash I've worked with tends to be one or the other - either it wants to take a sack of set regardless how carefully I treat it, or it won't take any at all. I don't like heat treating, and I don't like the look of a trapped back so I avoid both, and I have a selection of bows both with and without set. Most of my ash staves come from a handful of trunks I selected about a year and a half ago, and I don't really know their age so maybe that's a deciding factor.
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Using different techniques defines someone who knows what to do I would say. Not liking to heat treat 'EVER' just seems a bit odd. I get the whole "I AM AN ENGLISH WAR BOW SOCIETY GUY LOOK AT MY MUSCLES RARRRRRRRRR I SHOOT HISTORICALLY ACCUARATE HEAVY WEIGHT LONGBOWS" but even Joe Gibbs has heat treated some of his bows because I have seen them.
Ash is a great wood, sapling or mature, just use the right technique to get the best bow possible. Go ahead, walk past the next Yew tree and hug an Ash, you know you want to! >:D >:D
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No offence Dean, but you need to read things slightly more carefully, without always assuming everything's negative.
I asked the question because Mike knows how to work with ash, and I have only just started. I don't like heat treating because I have nowhere safe to do it and I think getting competent at the basics is what I need to be focusing on, rather than complicating matters.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with flexing imaginary muscles, or even being "historically accurate" because (although I'm SURE you already know all of this) bows were heat treated in the medieval period. I mean, even Joe Gibbs has done it. You've seen them.
As for the constant digs to people about walking past yew trees, you seem to have quite beautifully ignored Del's post on the different woods he uses, and you're also assuming for some obscure reason that anybody who has a question about a different type of wood is somehow addicted to yew wood. I'm not sure where you got that idea from but it's wrong. Speaking personally, yew is easy for me to get hold of, so I use it more than other woods. Ash is less easy so I use it less (and as a result, I ask people who actually know what they're doing with it how best to use it). I'd love to expand my knowledge (at least up to the level you're clearly at (although your original post in the other thread about "still trying to get longbows right" makes that both contradictory and slightly amusing...)) by using other woods, but at the moment they're far harder for me to get hold of.
Once I'm as good at making longbows as you are from every wood species available, I'll let you know. Until then, please feel free to post pictures of your superb ash warbows in the 100# + range, that have no set and perform exceptionally well. If you prefer using other woods, post those as well.
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Loving the sarcasm old boy. Just take a chill pill, think we should start over, sorry for causing offence, I am making daft comments without thinking about how it comes across.
Me apologies! :embarassed:
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Here, let me lighten the mood by posting a pic of the final product. I have heat treated the belly one more time and it seems to reduce set a little when I heat treat it when clamped in a little bit of a reflex. The picture doesn't look great, i think i ruined the quality of the pic while resizing it so it would upload.
Don't mean to start the yew/ash discussion again but I will start a new tread because I just started building a yew longbow/warbow 8)