Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: half eye on June 16, 2014, 03:23:12 pm
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The last Osage I posted was from Jon W and made a real fine bow. Thought I would use a piece of Osage that I got from H Rhodes (thanks Howard) and a piece of my old stand-by (Ironwood) the idea is to build a couple of shorter bows and pull them babies back.....then pike 'em and see how short I can get and still maintain decent draw length, also to see the actual effect on draw weight.
Bow #1: H Rhodes Osage 50" ntn, 45# @ 27" , 1-1/8 wide tapering to 1/2" tips and pin knocks
Flat bow w/ circular tiller
Bow #2: Ironwood (dead standing) 53" ntn, 55# @ 28" 15/16" wide tapering to 9/16" tips and pin
knocks.....center is "D" section for 6-8" and transitioning to flat bow w/ circular tiller.
Plan on updating with progressive photos as the bow is piked down, right now here are the photos. Please feel free to chime in with questions and comments. One note, the Ironwood is pretty bent in both planes so I may flip the tips prior to piking.
rich
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second set of pics
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nice bows with killer weight for such shorties! love em both but im a little more drawn to the ironwood bow myself. really cool post man!
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Rich, This is going to be interesting to follow...One of the questions I've had for a while is on finger pinch at these bow lengths. Do you use a special grip on the string and how clean is your release. I know it would be touchy and something you would have to practice to get a clean release.
Don
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thanks Neoman, I believe that if I flip those tips and shorten the first 1" the weight is going up some more.
Don, just a regular 3 finger (one over and two under) and yes the outside of the string fingers get callused up pretty good. As far as the release goes you are absolutely correct that little differences make big target errors. If I have a bow with long enough draw to reach a part of my face I make sure when that thumb knuckle touches....it does not move till the arrows hits.....floating anchor is more problematic as to a consistent release and that's part of the learning curve and probably different for each person. That's one of the reasons for trying to make short bows with enough draw to reach the face.
rich
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Rich I know you got plans on piking but that Osage bow has at least another inch of draw if the tips work some more. I personally think 28" from a 50 incher would be insane!! But you know that anyway ;)
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You could foot draw it if you need to :D
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OK wise-guy....I see what you mean....no pike till 28" and no I aint gonna foot pull it >:D >:D >:D either. I'm gonna do that PDQ.
rich
PS: ya know that you and I aint all there dont ya?
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You and Jon are both nuts! ;D. I'll be watching with interest! Too cool Rich! 8) Josh
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Thank you Josh, yes I admitt I'm not all there dont believe there any hope for Jon either.....having said that There are a few more that would make that list, especially that fella out there in Kansas >:D
rich
PS: your 2-cents comin after that stave you picked out to work on.
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Lol! Tou che' my friend! You have counted coup upon me! ;D. Josh
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In all seriousness though, Rich that Iron wood bow has a spectacular tiller. I think you need to experiment with something else. Now get out there and whip out a couple more right quick >:D
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Jon....Here is the osage 50" er @ 28" of draw.....the weight stayed the same though because (I think) the flipped tips might be weak enough to take away some of the overall resistance anyway....here it is.
I may just take your advice on the Ironwood.
rich
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Man o man you knocked that one clean out of the park buddy.
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You and Howard got me spoiled with this bullet proof wood, eh?
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You do a bang up job with that Northern white wood but you know OSAGE IS KING!
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Sweet Jesus man, dont get me started.
rich
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Awesome!
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Hey Rich,
I'm a little worried about ya man.
DO YOU EVER SLEEP!!
I would love to spend a day watching you as you make ..oh I don't know ...maybe 2 or 3 shorties.
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Looks to me like the tips did give a little bend in that 2nd full draw pic. at 28" and the tiller looks real good still when pulled that extra inch. Don't know how you guys can get these shorties to bend so far.
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Insanity is right. :o :o Way to bend that puppy!
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Man Rich, you got those short bows figured out! Little bit of dueling short bows with you and Jon ;D
Tracy
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Rich, you just made my day! When i first saw that stave I knew it had your name on it. That is an awesome tiller. 28" draw on a 50" bow!! Who the hell does stuff like that?! ;D
That ironwood is just as amazing. I will be watching to see how your experiments end up. Have you ended up with any set in either of those bows? From the pics it looks like they didn't. Next time I come across another piece that just isn't quite long enough for normal folks to make a bow out of it I promise I am sending it to you brother! :laugh:
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I'm interested in the set!
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Trick photography and photoshop, gotta be!! >:D You sure have those things cranked around there Rich. Nice job.
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Awesome bend Rich! That's insane man... :o
Don
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More, already?? It looks like you are really on a binge, Mr. Rich! More sweet looking bows, for sure! ;D
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I swear you could get a hunting weight bow out of a Popsicle stick, awesome bows as always.
Grady
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Jon....Here is the osage 50" er @ 28" of draw.....the weight stayed the same though because (I think) the flipped tips might be weak enough to take away some of the overall resistance anyway....here it is.
Wouldn't that be called set? ???
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First off, thanks for the comments fellas
Howard / Mike in the original pics of the bows (002 for osage & 010 for ironwood) compared to these I'm posting now you can see that the Ironwood has changed very little and after I retillered the osage it now lies dead flat. I did not retiller the osage anywhere except the outer 20% so I'm calling that about one inch now that it's all shot in (loss of the 1" I steamed into the center before tillering)
The ironwood had nothing done to it, just tillered and drawn. In the first picture you see it as it started (slight deflex and whoopty-doos) and you can see in the pic from today it is little changed so if there is any set it's less than a 1/2". But ya can compare the pics for yourselves.
Blackhawk, either I did not speak clearly enough for you or you miss-understood. Since the osage bow was retillered from stiff tip circle to full circle, the outer parts of both limbs were scraped down quite a bit, thus making them not as strong as when they were stiff....I believe that difference in strength is what offset the added couple of pounds that should have come with the extra 1" of draw. So to answer your question the retiller did not result in more set, the flat bow as it sits now is just like you all do when you start by cookin in a couple inches of reflex so your bow will come out flat, I steamed in 1" and its now flat so I'm calling it 1" set Compare the pictures for your self and you decide.
rich
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Thanks for answering my question...now I got more ;D
So you didn't pike it like you had said you wanted to at the start,and just retillered the weight down to pull the same weight at 28",and that it didn't take anymore set(not even a 1/4") by pulling it further than what it was being pulled at before??
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Blackhawk, here';s the chronology,
1. make a bow that is 50" ntn, and draws about 45 @27" , made as circle tiller w/stiff tips, and post it
2. Jon W mentioned it would go another 1 or so inches, so instead of "V" bending the grip area by overstressing (set) I decided to bring the tips back (not stiff) to gain the extra draw length
3.I expected more draw weight at 28" than I had at 27" (maybe 2-3 pounds) when the bow gave the same weight I was somewhat puzzeled. So I was commenting that I thought the thinner flipped tips (thinner to open up more) might be the reason because they were storing a little less energy...just speculating.
4. I'm getting the pics for the first "pike" post on the Osage which has been done between the thunder showers and hail....will be posted here shortly.
rich
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Your results are pretty much in line with what I would expect Rich. Looking at the unbraced pics before and after are the key. In the first pic you have pronounced flip tips that probably netted you an inch or so of reflex. In the second pics the side profile shows a flatter profile. I didn't see whether you heat straightened them or if they just pulled out. It doesn't really matter much either way. The effect is the same. The bow doesn't know if its reflexed, flat or deflexed on these simple designs. It only knows how much energy is stored while being bent from unbraced to full draw. So as far as draw weight alone is considered, a bow with 1" of reflex drawn 50#@27" is gonna pretty much equal a straight bow drawn 50#@28" because the limbs are bending the same amount from unbraced to full draw. The actual energy imparted to the arrow is where things get complicated. But as far as why the draw weight stayed the same, I believe that is why it turned out that way. Just my feeble minded understanding of course. So I could be way off. Josh
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I believe the only real way to measure all of this is to check the weight at say 15" before and after changing the profile of the bow. That way extra set hasn't had a chance to creep in. You'll know then if you simply lost string tension, lost actual draw weight or just added set to the bow by pulling it another inch. Ive come to notice that very little draw weight changes register when fussing with tips. Draw weight is generated way down the limb towards the handle.
One thing I cant wrap my brain around is drawing a straight limbed bow 2-4" beyond half its length, yet no stack or set? I haven't figured that secret out yet. But Im trying.
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Please tell me this post isn't going to turn into a B.S. discussion over 1/4", or even 1" of set!!! Set or no set, those are two damn fine bows ya got there Rich!! Nice work again! I'm looking forward to seeing the piking results.
Tattoo Dave
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Damn fine couple of bows Rich.
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I thought it was an experimental thing Rich was doing. So I tossed my two cents in how to get a good measurement of what's going on as he changes the bow.
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OK fellas, Piked the Osage bow from 50" to 48", the results are that I still dont have much set and the bow now weighs 47# @ 27". That means I have 2-3 pounds more draw weight for 1" less draw length. The bow was tested and shot with 4-7/8" brace height.
The other thing is that I'm leaving the pin knocks whole so ya can see how much was cut off @ one.
There is a new full draw, un-braced, and details of both knocks. So we dont get into any arguements if there is anything else you'd like to see please advise so I can take more photos.
Enjoy the pics
rich
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Gun Doc, think ya said it better than I can, believe your right on the money.
Idaho, Tattoo thanks fellas, appreciate the support
Pearl Drums, I never did say they dont pinch, to the contrary believe I told Don ya do get callous's on the outside of the string fingers, the stack question has also be addressed, yes if go far enough they stack....if they stack I take a hard look at my tiller to see if there is any more room in there anywhere, if so I correct the tiller, if not I quit pulling at the stack point. There is a lot of reasons for the little set, and I've brought it up a bunch of times which resulted in some "discussions" with a bunch of ya's. I'm not going there anymore. I'll let the bows speak for themselves. Also in fairness I dont believe I said there was no set in these bows so dont know where that came from.
Just so there is no misunderstanding I'm gonna post a picture of 5 unbacked self bows from staves made by 3 different people and all pull past half their length and none has very much set. Don Carter's bow, Wildkatt's bow and 3 I made and have posted. Look further at Jon W's bows same thing, anyway not being a smart ass but it is not impossible to do, not even close.
Thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated
rich
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There is no way a bow made from wood, that is repeatedly drawn to full draw is not gonna take some set. I think we can all agree to that statement. What is cool to me is the comment that Chris (P.D.) made. A bow drawn past half it's length is just cool to me. It's not rocket science. It's not someone bragging about what they can do. It is what it is, FRIGGIN COOL! I believe with a good eye for floor tiller comes a bow that will have LESS set than usual.
I think that might be what Chris was saying about the 15" draw thing. Am I close Chris?
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Here are the 5 bows I mentioned earlier
1. Don Carter
2. Wildkatt
3. rich
4. rich
5. rich (bow in this post)
rich
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forgot the photo....
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That's what I gleaned from Pearly's post Jon. It makes sense to me anyway. Dave, I guess I don't understand where your coming from though. Rich is experimenting by pushing past assumed limits and sharing his findings as he goes. If that's not an invitation for some discussion on just how in the world he and a few others are doing it, I don't know what would be. I'm not doubting or trying to discredit what is being done. Quite the opposite actually. I marvel at what these fellas can do with so little wood. I'm not trying to be a jerk Dave. I'm just trying to figure out what prompted the "BS discussion" comment?
Rich I understand why you left pin knocks the way you did, but they sure look funny! Lol! Thanks for taking the time to do this Rich. I have enjoyed it! Josh
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Rich just remember that you and I and some others like things in a bow not many other people do like. I always appreciate what you do and why you do it even if you get a little agitated. People are people..........
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Thanks fellas, Ya Josh it does look stupid, but it's the only way to photographically "prove" I'm doin what I say. They'll get sawed off when I'm done with the shortening. Gonna cut it down to 46" tomorrow and update. If it turns out like I suspect the 46" may be as short as I go.....just maybe 45" but we'll see, it will depend upon draw length and how high the weight goes.
Jon, used to let the site get to me, not no more. I'm not agitated at all. I'm doin my thing and if it's of interest that will be great, if not I dont care. You know me, I want to know all I can about the bows I intend to hunt with so if my methods aint scientific enough for others it's no big deal, cause they can do their own experiments and everybody's happy.
rich
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Lol! I know why you left em that a way. Instead of cutting em off, maybe you could heat em up and curve em into talons. They'd be handy for hanging your bow up while you warmed up your hands. If you sharpened those talons up, you could put a stop to some clown making fun of your short stick. Just rare back and hit em where the good Lord split em. Two inches of Osage in a butt cheek would get their attention quick! >:D. I'm just funnin with ya. I'll be checking to see how she turns out tomorrow. Josh
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Still bending nicely after you piked her to 48" Rich and I'm still amazed that you can get that much draw out of it, I'm watching to see what happens next. It's an interesting experiment in pushing the limits, no doubt something to be learned from this post for a guy like me. I've got 50" bows that I won't pull past 24" so I have room for improvement. :)
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I appreciate your posting this and keeping us up to date with how these bows respond to being shortened up and being full drawn. It's good to learn the possibilities of wood bows and posts like this are real food for thought, as well as a testament to what is possible with good bow wood and expert tillering skills. These bows are real conversation starters for all sorts of reasons - they are shorter and narrower than anything you read about in our much quoted books and bibles... I appreciate all of the innovators on this site, like Rich, who put their findings out there for discussion. I think better bows are being built every day because of it. I wish I could watch you tiller a bow one time to see how you do it, because you obviously have some things figured out. That's a helluva bend and very little set. I was expecting well over an inch - the way I tiller a bow, it would have ended up with more than two.... :( Really remarkable bows brother. What's next?
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Enjoying this with interest...Keep it coming Rich...The amount of bend is what's awesome, I would have busted them sticks way before I got where your at bud...I love the insanity
Don
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The most amazing part of this post is Rich has a pic with grass in it! >:D I am finding all this very interesting as I have several shorter staves laying around.
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Nice work as usual, you guys amaze with them shorties. :) We all know set is not a good thing but it is funny how all of the sudden, just in the last few years that folks have become so obsessed with it. ??? :-\ :-\
Pappy
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Nice work as usual, you guys amaze with them shorties. :) We all know set is not a good thing but it is funny how all of the sudden, just in the last few years that folks have become so obsessed with it. ??? :-\ :-\
Pappy
Pappy, I think we finaly realized we have more control over set than we previously realized.
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Its like tread wear on a tire, go ahead and ignore it.
My comments had ZERO to do with degree of set. I simply gave Rich a good way to measure his changes. It was misconstrued as all my Half Eye posts get. I turn into an arrogant know-it-all no matter my comments, or there helpfulness. I know better.
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Fellas, here is the bow piked down to 46" ntn, weighs 52# @ 26" (same 4-7/8" brace height. The pics are as follows:
002 full draw
004 braced
005 unbraced after shooting
006 tip showing the amount removed
007 back of the bow
008 belly of the bow....these are to show that there has been no heat treating, steaming etc. to make corrections.
The full draw looks like the lower limb need to bend a little more, but not so in the brace so I'm going to kick around whether or not to fart with that. The draw is now one inch farther than my normal so I believe I will not go any further with the piking. Also the weight is going to be about perfect after sanding down some.
Enjoy the pics, again questions and comments always welcome
rich
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Well done Rich! That's impressive any way you slice it. Oh and please disregard my talon tip suggestions. That was a product of too many hrs in the saddle yesterday. I didn't realize I was getting that slap happy. :-[ Josh
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Thanks for all the comments, I do mean ALL.
Josh, your a wicked, evil man you are 8)
B2, depends on what your after sir, your bows look great, if they make you happy then shoot hell out
of 'em. All this is supposed to be fun, and changes from one guy to the next
Wildman, I hear ya on the grass, hell the sunshine is what I'm tryin to figure out ;D
Pappy, thanks I know what ya mean....thanks for your comment, means a lot
Pearl Drums, I was not offended by your post or suggestion, this is what I'm doing to satisfy MY curiosity, and my questions to myself are probably different that what interests you and Badger, Blackhawk etc. Like I said thanks for the comments 8)
rich
Josh, I'm seriously considering the talon idea....hell man it will do my rep a lot of good >:D >:D 8)
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<snip>Oh and please disregard my talon tip suggestions. That was a product of too many hrs in the saddle yesterday. I didn't realize I was getting that slap happy. :-[ Josh
I kinda liked the "bend and shape them into Talons" idea. It'd make them look fairly barbarian as well! ...which is ALWAYS a good thing. I mean if you've gotta be smaller than everybody else is, you should at least look meaner tougher and hard core nastier than all the rest!
OneBow
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Not throwing that at you Pearl,just an observation by me,you are right Steve.
Nice work Rich by the way. ;) :) :) Sorry for the high jack. :-[
Pappy
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Rich I would like to shift gears and go back to the design discussion. I am under the impression that the rectangular or square cross section was utilized by so many different native peoples for a reason. I can't wrap my puny brain around the engineering side of things but I can understand what my eyes tell me. I have the most success with taming set with that type of cross section.
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I completely agree Jon. Since I started making whitewood bows narrower and deeper the set does not seem to be much of an issue. Sure there is gonna be some, but if ya do your part it really is not very much, not anywhere near enough to damage the bows performance. I also noticed that belly fretting (compression fractures) is non existant....maybe something to do with the limb wood being thicker (more meat between the back and belly. There is also the part about counterflexing training for the wood but we wont go into that.
You can take this section bow and apply it to say Osage or Ironwood, or Elm and it gets crazy good 8)
rich
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"Since I started making whitewood bows narrower and deeper the set does not seem to be much of an issue."
I guess my experiences have been the opposite, at least with the inner limbs. I get less set when they're wider and thinner (up to a point). When I make a bow outta oak or ash, and I keep the inner limbs 2" + they tend to take less set than if I make em 1.5" or less. Of course that's with a semi pyramid design etc...
Gabe
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Ross, I'm going make a post tomorrow on how I make these scrap stave shorties. If it will help take a look and maybe you can see what you do different than me. First if your pyramid has the rigid handle area take a look at the "D" section grip area on the bendy, and might give an idea of maybe tweeking the grip area on the rigid handle models.....anyway hope ya figure that out because it will give you more options for wood that otherwise would not make you a bow.
rich
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Ross, I'm going make a post tomorrow on how I make these scrap stave shorties.
Lookin forward to that.
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Hey Rich, I think that one's about short enough now!
This was very interesting. Remaining curious after having made so many is a gift, you know. Especially past one's youth.
Big cheers to you and big cheers to that adorable shortie for Holding up so well ;D
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Traxx, probably dont have much of anything to teach you about short NA style bows. Got to believe that you have a good handle on short bows ;)
Jodocus, Thank you for the nice compliment, I am going to do that, as it should turn out just under 50# at my hunting draw length when finished up. That weight is easier for me to shoot accurately and plenty of power for white-tail deer. Thanks again
rich
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Good deal. If it's shooting good for you at that length, quit choppin' it off :laugh: - I want to see that little yeller stick laying on a deer in a few months! ;D
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The bow still looks great, braced, drawn and resting profiles are sweet. I like that little sucker where you got it now Rich, nice work.
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Thanks Howard, do my best, the bow deserves to be blooded. Ya grow some mean Osage down there my friend 8) 8)
Thanks B2, Not only is it useable for me but I dont think there is any thing to be gained by continuing on to a point thats it is not useable. The bows can be shortened and still maintain integrity and the short circle tillered bows can be made to draw way more than I tried before, I'm happy to have found the useful limits of the design as they apply to my questions.
rich
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Rich, that's an amazing short bow my friend...You definitely have the knowledge, skill and experience to pull that off...Thanks for posting and I'm still enjoying the short one you sent me...Gett'n pretty good with it to...
Don
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Thanks Don, I'll get started on the post this afternoon and you all can see how simple it really is. There is one thing thats probably gonna get some "comments" but other than that aint nothin to it. I figure if somebody tries it ya might see a few more of them being made and enjoyed.
rich
just for a teaser...the bow I built for the build along is just over 41" long....near 45 at 25" ....I'm not sure though because the string come off....aint found the string but the bow was stuck in the ceiling and I damned near crapped myself....bows not hurt though 8) 8) 8) 8)
rich
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I bet it did throw a string after it got 20 degrees past 90. Something has to give after the bow bends as far as possible. Maybe recurve the tips a bit and it might stay on out to 24", but I doubt it. Stack city to I bet.
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Traxx, probably dont have much of anything to teach you about short NA style bows. Got to believe that you have a good handle on short bows ;)
Maybe,maybe not,but i just like to see this stuff posted on here anyway.Since your other build along disappeared,it will be nice to have another to reference.Besides,you never know what you can learn.
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Got the knocks figured out so I can get it to 25 easy.....got a full draw and 25" on the tree for the sceptics. 25" from a 41+" bow....now thats insane and really not necessary....but the scrap was small so the bow is what is.
rich