Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: RedBear1313 on May 02, 2014, 04:10:29 pm
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OK guys, this is my first attempt at a bow here, so I'm gonna be asking some questions.
I've got several osage staves and have been working down the rings on a few of them, I figured I'd work em all down to one ring so I could save the very best ones for after I've gained a little experience building a few bows, using the not so great ones first.
This stave has only one knot in it and I attempted to work around the best I could. Study the pics and you'll see that it's not too large, but has that black punky center. I think I'll go ahead and use this one for my first since it has the knot in it.
(a couple of the staves are completely knot free)
How well did I do working around the knot? and is it bad enough that it's going to need special treatment?
I was thinking about backing it with sinew for insurance since it's my first attempt.
Oh yeah, it's shiny because after I was done chasing down the ring I rubbed it with oil before I'm going to put some polyurethane on it while it continues to season.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/03_zpsc7a3aba7.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/03_zpsc7a3aba7.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/08_zps5ec966cd.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/08_zps5ec966cd.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/06_zps92aac682.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/06_zps92aac682.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/05_zps2ef0a3a5.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/05_zps2ef0a3a5.jpg.html)
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Looks better than my work. If its wide enough, Id go right around that knot in the layout. Don't sinew back your bow for security. Sinew back it because its a design that requires it. Sinew is too heavy for insurance only.
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what kind of design requires it? that's what I've read in a few of the books that I've been studying out of.
The knot is 38" down from the top and it's 3" wide at that point.
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Kind of a long answer. Ill give you a short version. Very short bows that are stressed beyond what wood alone can handle. Also, some designs with very high reflex. I would suggest avoiding any backs at all unless you need one, they are heavy and slow a bow down. They wont hold a poorly built bow together any better than leaving it un-backed, they just take a bit longer to break down. As clean as your back is, leave it be and build a bow that is your draw length x 2 plus 8-10" long tip to tip.
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my plan was a long bow, i think that's obvious from the length of the stave
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What is your draw length? Ill give you some numbers to use, if you chose.
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26-27" I went to bass pro one day to see if they could help me find my actual draw length but the gave me this whole deal about all traditional is based on 26.
basically, they didn't help much
I had figured it exact one day, and wrote it down in one of my books for reference as I got closer to a finished bow but that book is not right at hand at the moment.
but I remember it being between 26 - 27"
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They have no clue at box stores, not their fault.
I would build your bow 64" tip to tip. Start with 1 5/8" wide and finish it off around 1 3/8 wide. Keep that 1 5/8 width until mid limb, then straight taper to 1/2" wide tips, you can also narrow them later. The handle should be 4" long and each fade should extend 1 1/2" beyond the handle. That will leave you 27 1/2" of working limb per side. Id suggest skirting that knot since you have plenty of width to do so.
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skirting?
you mean just follow the grain around it?
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Looks good. I agree with PD completely, leave the sinew out. No reason I can see from the pic that you will need it. Learn to build a durable self bow first and foremost. Later, build a sinew backed bow that is tillered well and designed to be sinew backed. If I remember, you are from the Waco area??? If I'm right, bring it to the Lake Somerville get-together in a few weeks and I would be tickled to help you with it. I'm sure others will as well.
BTW, I have never oiled a freshly peeled Bodark stave. Maybe it will have some impact on checking, I don't know, but I would wipe it clean and get a sealer on it now. Poly wont stick well if the stave is oily. I just split an 84 inch long Osage stave Saturday to get a belly split. No problemo. As I chased a ring on the belly split, it checked before I finished it. Stave has been drying for a year or more. Humidity is wildly low around here and that'll do it.
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Exactly. When it comes to bow layout ALWAYS follow the grain. When I say straight taper to 1/2" tips, that doesn't mean a straight line, it means a gradual, consistent taper following the grain. Your grain is very easy to see, should be no problem. Take your time, next to tillering a bow the layout is second most important to the success and longevity of a bow. Everything else that is done to bows is just for eyes to goggle over.
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Take Slims offer up if possible. He can easily show you what Im trying to explain. You'll be amazed how fast it comes when taught in person.
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Im in KCMO
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Damn the luck.
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Heck, were only what 12 hours away. :)
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Heck, were only what 12 hours away. :)
+2 ................where the bow mun....?
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,29483.0.html
KC bow makers club
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All of what you guys have said is great and helpful and I really do appreciate it but my answer wasn't really answered.
when I shape it out and get closer to tillering, will I need to do anything to that knot?
since it has a black & hard center? just leave it alone or remove the black core?
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Here is your answer; As knots go in osage yours is insignificant, nothing to worry about at all unless you stick it on the edge of your limb during your layout. You can see the grain lines flow around the knot like water in a stream around a rock. When you lay out your bow leave a little bulge that follows these lines on your limb edge. Any place you violate or cut across the flow of the grain around a knot will fail, just about 100% of the time.
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so while I'm laying it out try to put that knot as close to center of limb that I can?
I realize I won't be able to get it dead center but as close as I can?
and just ignore the backside of the knot while I am shaping the belly and the tillering process?
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I don't think having it dead center is needed. May not even be best in some cases. As the others have said, that knot is of little worry.
1. Don't cut through the center of it when laying out the front profile.
2. Follow the grain around the knot when laying out the front profile.
That's about it really. The belly side will be what it is. Tiller as per normal.
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I don't think having it dead center is needed. May not even be best in some cases. As the others have said, that knot is of little worry.
1. Don't cut through the center of it when laying out the front profile.
2. Follow the grain around the knot when laying out the front profile.
That's about it really. The belly side will be what it is. Tiller as per normal.
OK, that's what I needed to know. I'll think I'll just keep using this thread as I move further along with this bow when I have more questions and I'll def be taking more pics as the bow progresses.
Thanks for all the answers.
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They have no clue at box stores, not their fault.
I would build your bow 64" tip to tip. Start with 1 5/8" wide and finish it off around 1 3/8 wide. Keep that 1 5/8 width until mid limb, then straight taper to 1/2" wide tips, you can also narrow them later. The handle should be 4" long and each fade should extend 1 1/2" beyond the handle. That will leave you 27 1/2" of working limb per side. Id suggest skirting that knot since you have plenty of width to do so.
what do you mean start with 1 5/8" wide and finish with 1 3/8"?
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PD's advice is solid. Draw your front profile out so that it is 1 5/8" wide at the fades. As you get close to finishing it you can narrow it down some. 1/8" both sides or there about. You can always make it more narrow an shed a little mass. You can't add it back on.
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that's what I wasn't sure what he meant, start with wide profile at 1 5/8" and shave off an additional 1/8" later if needed.
I'm laying it out right now, and was able to put the knot in one of the fades.
with the handle and fades, do I have to be as faithful with the grain as I do on the limbs?
I mean can I make more of a straight cut on the handle/fade section?
I will take a couple pics once I'm done with the layout
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You will violate the grain in the fades. The fades won't bend so no problem. You will do the same in your width taper to a small degree.
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Here's what I have so far. It was too hard to get the whole layout in one pic so I took a few.
Was thinking about modifying the handle somewhat to give it a rest.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040015_zpsa1b80d21.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040015_zpsa1b80d21.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040013_zps57ea13ca.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040013_zps57ea13ca.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040012_zps7a9e67fa.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040012_zps7a9e67fa.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040010_zps51c5ecf9.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040010_zps51c5ecf9.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040009_zps7e323748.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5040009_zps7e323748.jpg.html)
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No cut in shelf in my opinion. They are doable, but unnecessary and can be a spot where you lose the whole thing if your not careful. Take a piece of latigo leather and build up a shelf. Easier by far and zero problems with it.
I don't know your dimensions so from what I see, it looks good. Just faithfully follow the grain down the centerline of the stave for the centerline of your bow. Then make the sides follow that path.
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I'm another new guy to selfbows and I just want to tell you experienced guys how much I appreciate your comments...
With your guidance I suspect many bows will come to life from the hands of many different would be bowyers !!
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Sorry for the confusion, proof reading pays. I meant to type 1 5/8" wide from the fades to mid limb, then taper to 3/8" tips, finished. Id suggest tapering to 5/8" for now. You can narrow it later as you shape the profile down. Personally? I get my bows finished profile done and sturdy right off the saw, before I ever touch the belly. That way I have no suprises as I shape and tiller the belly down. I have ONE surface to concern myself with until completion, and not three.
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unfortunately, I don't have a full shop with all the tools I want, one day maybe.
so for now, Im just gonna do it the hard way with hand tools, but that's kinda how I want my first bow anyway. so that means one side at a time and that was the plan, cut out the profile first.
as of now it's
66" total
4"x1" handle with slight swell in center
1 3/4" long fade to
1 5/8" limb
1/2" tip I used a flexible tape measure to make the limb width gradually smaller towards the tips
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Handtools only is actually better in the beginning....
That way you have to go slow ;D
Patience is a bowyers best friend
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Here's what I have so far, a little bit more twist than what I originally thought, but still not bad.
and the very slight modification I did to the handle area.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5060017_zpsf2fc7002.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5060017_zpsf2fc7002.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5060019_zpsffce1164.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5060019_zpsffce1164.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5060018_zps4cb543ba.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5060018_zps4cb543ba.jpg.html)
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Looks like you making head way on it. Ready to start taking wood off the belly and get it floor tillered.
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A little bit more shaving off the sides first, not quite to my lines.
shouldn't I shape the handle before I slim down the limbs?
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You will have different people answer that different ways. I shape my handle out now to its finished width. May be leave it a little wide but mostly finished width. Some guys leave it wide so they can shape it for string tracking issues. Not a bad idea, I just heat bend it to fix it if needed.
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You will have different people answer that different ways. I shape my handle out now to its finished width. May be leave it a little wide but mostly finished width. Some guys leave it wide so they can shape it for string tracking issues. Not a bad idea, I just heat bend it to fix it if needed.
Yup
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so it would be ok to rough shape it first?
and since the handle/fade area does not bend, would it be ok to put some finger grooves around the handle? like on the front part?
or would this be too much ring violation?
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Same answer as the cut in shelf. Doable, but it's one more place to risk losing the whole thing. I would not, if I were you. Make it durable with as few weak spots as is possible at this point. Focus on getting it tillered correctly as that will be your biggest challenge and accomplishment. Later on, once you have mastered the important stuff. Then you have some ability to take a few risks with that type of thing. Just my thoughts on it.
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I agree with Slimbob. I spent so much time on perfecting the handle on my first bow attempt that I was crushed when it blew all to pieces shortly into tillering. I would leave it plain and simple at least until you have it tillered out and know that its a shooter.
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If making the front of the grip to match your fingers is important to you, then Id suggest gluing cork on and shaping that. Then wrap it all with a leather grip.
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Rough out the sides of the handle if you want,but keep the belly flat.
Its easier to to get it to stay straight on the tilleringtree that way.
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I just rough shape the handle to my lines,and leave the finish shaping n such when its ready for some shooting... and +1 on using cork if ya wanna custom feel grip for now....BUT...don't worry about that stuff as nearly as much as tillering it...as slim says that is going to be your biggest obstacle to learn and overcome..so focus on tillering more than any other thing when ya get there...one step at a time man,and TAKE YOUR TIME!!! ;)
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I used to leave my handles a little wide that way you can make adjustments to string alignment. I don't really do it anymore bc I can just as easily steam and bend the handle accordingly, probably an extra 10 mins of work I could avoid had I left it a little wide.
The advice your getting is solid and consistent, and so far your build looks great. Keep it up
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ok, let's say I really want an arrow shelf, is the one I have in there so drastic I might ruin it later if I go ahead and include it?
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It could yes. It probably wont. My suggestion is just meant to give you the best odds of finishing the bow, so you make the call either way. Why not just start tillering now and leave the shelf decision for later?
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most likely thats what I was going to do.
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If your handle is at least 1.25" wide by 1.5" deep at the pass, you can cut a 3/8" deep shelf in with no problems structurally. I understand your want, any and all bows I hunt with have a shelf of some sort. Generally I cut a VERY shallow shelf (1/8"-1/4") in then build the rest out with latigo.
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for the shelf that I have drawn in there I extend that corner out by 1/8" and pushed the fade in 1/8".
the handle is 1" wide as of right now.
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Progress
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/03_zps67fca696.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/03_zps67fca696.jpg.html)
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Looking good so far.
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Yikes! unfortunately I ripped a bit up while I was roughing out the handle this morning.
Just take it down another ring or wrap it with sinew? anything else I could do to fix it?
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5100031_zps4154bdbe.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5100031_zps4154bdbe.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5100030_zps4e6098f2.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5100030_zps4e6098f2.jpg.html)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5100029_zpsc70a4d80.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/P5100029_zpsc70a4d80.jpg.html)
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That's nothing. For one, it's in the fade and should hence not be flexing. But most of all, you still need to round the edges. All edges of any bow must be rounded to about the radius of a small pea. If rounding the edge does not completely remove the splinter, then round the edge to the radius of a chickpea...
It is truly a lovely stave you've got there. I see no reason why this shouldn't make a great bow. The thick coat of oil (or what is it?) on the back just bothers me a bit. There is no need to coat the wood in a layer of oil at this stage. It may interfere with your finish and may clog your tools.
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the "shiny" is just polyurethane. I put on several thin layers.
although I did rub some oil on it, let it soak a little, and then rubbed it off before the poly.
and you answered my next question, about how much to round the edges.
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how much bend do you want when you are floor tillering?
that is where I am at with this but it also has some bend and twist I need to remove, I'm assuming after/during floor tillering is when I should straighten it out and put in any recurve?
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If this is your first bow i would keep it simple. once you finished it and have it nicely tillered, then on your next one you can add some more fancy things like recurves and shelfs. :laugh: ive made over 10 working bows so far and still havn't done a recurve from a stave, although that hazel I got today is tempting. Sorry of topic there. my advice is keep this first one simple and maybe even practice tillering on a red oak bow and come back to it, but it's your stave so it's up to you ;D what ever you do good luck,
Oh and i think i noticed a bug in your wood, if it bites you, you will be addicted to bow making forever >:D
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Flipping the tips is easy and low risk in my opinion. Get it bending evenly on both limbs 3-4 inches or so. Too much and you may miss your weight so be conservative with it. Then, straighten whatever needs straightening, bend the tips a little if you want and temper all at once. With a good caul is easiest, but a few clamps and a shaped 2x4 is easy as well.
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what is caul?
and I guess I shouldn't have said recurve, I think I meant slightly reflexed tips, bending the outter tips outward by just a couple inches.
and while you are floor tillering, are you trying to get each limb to bend evenly or just get them both to bend enough to put on a tiller tree?
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A caul is a form made of wood that is used to shape the wood that is your bow. While it is hot and plasticized you use clamps to pull the bow into the shape of the caul. Once it has cooled it will retain that shape.
Yes, just slightly reflexing the tips is what I was referring to. I would not go for any kind of radical bend as you may lose it doing so.
Both bending evenly as much as possible. That is the essence of this whole craft. Keep the 2 limbs balanced with each other and begin doing that as early as possible. Once on the tree you wont have radical adjustments to contend with on just one limb. They will be close to the same strength from the get go. Get it as close as you can gauge it, but don't sweat the difference.
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When you temper, you temper only the belly correct?
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yes temper the belly
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(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x114/grymmtymm/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/05_zpsf7bba7b5.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/grymmtymm/media/Bows/1st%20Bow-Osage/05_zpsf7bba7b5.jpg.html)
so while trying to straighten the stave using oil and a heat gun, a small crack formed in the belly about 6 1/2" above the fade,
is this salvagable?
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Maybe, yes. Sometimes you can scrape down below the split as you tiller and problem solved. I have filled them with CA glue and moved on if they are minor, then wrapped with sinew. I will say that that is in my opinion a bad spot for it to happen I would think. I have had them occur nearer the tip without any problems. I am talking about very minor little separations, and again most I sanded out. You could put a very thin belly lam on that spot, but I would consider that only if I had no other options.
Now analyze why it happened so you can minimize them going forward. Could be that it simply wasn't hot enough to bend yet and you forced it. There shouldn't be that much bend that close to the handle so it splitting there is a bit peculiar. Was there a kink in the limb you were working out? If so you took it too far to fast. Heat gun? If so you must go very slowly and make micro moves on the wood. Heat, turn the crank just a bit, heat, turn the crank just a bit and so on. I have started to lightly sand the belly on those spots right before I tighten another notch. Purely speculation, but I believe it sands away any minor tears before they become what you have. It cant hurt anything and it has reduced the number of splits for me, so there you go.
Very sweet color on that piece of wood by the way.
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Yes, there was a kink in the wood. I rubbed it with oil, heated it with a heat gun, turning the stave constantly until it was too hot to touch.
Next time, I'll just use steam. And I was about to try scraping down some.
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I am assuming the split is in the belly, but in that pic it doesn't look like it's belly wood. That's not the back is it?
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not the back, in the belly.
I sanded and scraped on it some more, and got the vast majority of it out, but I still haven't put it on a tree and even tested the weight so now I need to straighten it out.
I figured using a heat gun would be like using fire.
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I just used a heat gun to take the twist out of my first yew bow. I set the bow up so I could put a constant pressure on it with a crescent wrench and then started heating. As the bow heats up you can feel the wood give. Just keep a constant pressure on it and it will gradually move. Don't put to much pressure on it. Have a method pre-arranged to hold the bow in the new position. It's really hard to hold it in position while you try to reach clamps and such. Don't ask me how I know.
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ok, got this thing all straightened and ready to move on.
I plan on reflexing the tips, this bow is 65 1/2" overall, how much curve should I give it?
or I guess I should ask how much length of the tips should be curved and how extreme of a curve?