Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ohma2 on April 14, 2014, 07:12:07 pm
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Dont misunderstand what im trying to ask, everyone should strive to build the best they can but are we trying to build to perfect a primitive bow.after all this is primitive archer forum isnt it.
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I don't know ohma, my bows are far from perfect, some on here are uber primitive and some like building bows with natural materials, it's all good as long as it's wood to me
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Ever see an Atlatl bannerstone? Striving for perfection fits entirely in the primitive theme. If there is one thing that primitive people have it is time to finesse things.
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If your talking about the 'timing thread' I understand. I tried to insert a humorous post to keep things from getting to serious. I think there will always be someone who tries to over analyze our craft. It reminds me why I left the wheelie world and returned to traditional archery.
As far as the perfect bow, I'm sure some of our ancestors beat us to that, many moons ago.
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I think for me perfect is....
Will it shoot with consistent accuracy? (more to do with me the archer than the bow)
Does it hit hard enough to take a deer cleanly? ( doesn't have to be a screamer for that)
Will it hold up and last for a long time? (make enough and there is always another waiting to hunt on the bow rack)
Is it not so ugly that I'd won't be embarrassed to claim I made it. (only matters in the eye of the bowholder)
other than that they are all good :) Still I try to make the best bow I can! (most times)
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It's like looking for the prefect child or flower. Eventually you realize that every one is perfect in it's uniqueness. However if, a search for perfection is a driving force that gives us goals and makes us better at our craft then I'm all for it. I've said several times tongue in cheek, that once I make the perfect bow I'll stop. And as for whatever goals make the next guy/gal happy, more power to em.
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I think trying to make a perfect primitive bows is a great challenge. From the few examples of true primitive bows we have I believe out ancestors felt the same way. A fiberglass bow is more of a recipe where a wood bow we have to finesse it into shape without damaging or minimizing damage. Two bows with everything the same style wood etc can have very different shooting characteristics depending on how they were built.
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Perfection is what keeps me going for sure! As I go I get a better understanding of what perfection is. I want the simplest and most efficient hunting bow. That means I'm gonna have to work on my shooting some and at least begin to approach perfection.
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I admire good craftsmanship. That doesn't have to be a pretty bow. It should just be well made. There will always be room for improvement.
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I have used a good bit of heat correction/manipulation on bows over the last few years but that is not for "perfection". It is to create what comes in my mind when I see the stave. The end result is generally far from perfection. Making her pretty is a way to cover up or disguise the imperfections.
I got into "primitive" archery to get away from the perfection of mechanical archery and later the perfection of manufactured trad archery. My ultimate goal in primitive archery is to be as simple as possible yet still be effective; for target, 3D and hunting. Being able to make most of my own stuff is a big draw too.
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oh yeah, I'm in relentless pursuit of perfection.....unfortunatley I am imperfect and so I do the best I can to chase down the next piece of beautiful imperfection. Its kind of a sickness but one that brings me moments of satisfaction. Danny
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perfection can not come from imperfection, therefore anyone who strives for perfection must first become perfect himself.
I do enjoy a bit of philosophy though, helps me to accept my imperfect bows, that realy just expose my own imperfections 8)
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I shoot for absolute perfection in every bow I build in every facet of the build from stave to finish. I still use a stick of wood just like everybody else though. Primitive doesn't mean a "steaming pile" of bent wood in my teeny tiny book.
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I look for prefection in each build [maybe not in the finish work] :)but in the functional part of the bow never seem to make it,always something that don't go as planned. I tell folks that is what I love about it,problem solving from start to finish. Been looking for the prefect stave for close to 30 years,ant found it yet but I feel sure I will someday,it has to be one out there somewhere. ;)
Pappy
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Come on Pappy
Here I thought that they were all perfect , till I get a hold of them its all down hill from there !
I love every thing about them each has its own uniqueness
Any bow that feels good to shoot and that's most of them is "perfect"
Guy
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I don't strive for perfection, but I do try to make the best bows I'm capable of each and every time. I don't like to settle for less than that.
I don't feel it necessary to adhere to anyone else's definition of 'primitive' or 'traditional', and rarely ever use those words in reference to my bowmaking, but to borrow a phrase... "just because it's primitive doesn't mean it has to be crude."
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I look for prefection in each build [maybe not in the finish work] :)but in the functional part of the bow never seem to make it,always something that don't go as planned. I tell folks that is what I love about it,problem solving from start to finish. Been looking for the prefect stave for close to 30 years,ant found it yet but I feel sure I will someday,it has to be one out there somewhere. ;)
Pappy
Why Mark, every stave is perfect :)
If you don't strive to improve then you might as well give up now
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They really are Marc,at least they are all unique in their own way which make them prefect. :)
Pappy
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When I first started making bows in the early 90's there wasn't a lot of info out there, and what was often was contradictory. Confusing to a new comer. Then the Bowyers Bibles came along and helped clear a few things up. Some things were still left up in the air.
A lot of stick bow people started hanging out on the Leatherwall. There was always some lively discussion about one thing or another. Most topics were efforts at making the perfect bow. At that time the stick bow guys started to out number the regular traditional crowd.
Some how we got hung up on the yellow wood/white wood comparison. After some heavy even heated debates, we decided to end the controversy by having a get together and doing some testing. Many of us had only met thru the internet, and we also thought it would be a good way to meet face to face.
We decided on a central location, and Keith Bishop offered to hold our get together in Marshal Mo. at the bow clubs meeting area. We met there for the first time in 1999 in July. The meeting was tagged with the name "Mojam".
The long and short of it was that the woods were very evenly matched and only 1 or 2 fps separated the top two bows (one a white wood, one a yellow wood).
I think the main thing I got from it was that design, moisture content and good tillering were much more important than wood selection.
I think any testing we do will likely improve our ability to get closer to that perfect bow. But like I stated earlier, I think our ancestors did their testing over time. Time that was many times a life and death situation. I'm sure there were a number of 'perfect bows' made back then. Problem is a lot of that information never got passed on to us.
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On a further note; I got into this because I like working with wood, and I receive most of my pleasure in making an efficient and nice looking bow. Getting closer thru trial and error to a more perfect bow. Although I start to get turned off a little when someone tries to drag a bunch of high tech stuff into the conversation.
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This is my hobby. I am an amateur so take my remarks as such. I have never strived for perfection. I'm not sure I know what the perfect bow should be like.
I look at the stave and try to get the best bow possible from that piece of wood.
The thing that bothers me on my builds is to have finishing imperfections so I spend some enjoyable time sanding and removing nicks. I call it fussing.
As I age (65) bows do not come as quickly as they did when I was in my 40's.
I just enjoy whatever time I have with draw knife in hand.
Perfection is an interesting concept.
How can we quest for it when we don't know what it is?
So I guess I need to define what I look for in a bow that I made. The bow should be quiet. Smooth all the way back. The arrow should be away with a quiet push. Good cast as shown in flight.
Sorry for the rambling.
Good thread.
Jawge
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I struggle with my own definition of perfection. I see many bows that look "perfect" to me that come in all sorts of designs, styles, and materials. There's just something about the craftsmanship that feels "perfect". If the bowyer put his best effort into the bow and it reflects his personality and design intent it's probably pretty close to "perfect"? I guess I'll never know for sure what perfection is, I'm pretty sure I'll never make a perfect bow (or anything else), but I plan on enjoying making every single one; that in itself feels kind of ... "perfect" to me.
Great thread BTW!
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As Jawge says, how do we know if we build a perfect bow if we don't know what perfect is. Looking at bows from the 1920's through the 1940's it is clear to me that we had to first catch up to them. Those guys knew what made a bow tick. They understould skinny tips, reflex, deflex, recurves and everything else we are doing today. I think heat treating might be the only real addition our group has made.
My belief is that the more I understand about the wood the more challenging a build becomes. I play around with the high tec stuff at the desk, but when I get ready to build a bow its all be feel and sight just like everyone else.
Each style has a slightly different potential, some focus on higher energy storage, some focus more on efficiency, some focus on light arrows and some on heavy arrows. There is nothing untraditional about knowing as much as you can about something you are trying to build. Once we decide what we want to build the skill comes in with our ability to monitor and control the condition of the wood as we tiller it out to final draw weight. They have done it this way for thousands of years and thats why they call it a craft or a trade, there simply are some things to learn to become accomplished at it.
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Steve,
Heat treating was mentioned in an article in Ye Sylvan Archer in the 30s. It was used to "rejuvenate" old yew bows. Hard to say if they also used it to induce reflex or just use it from the get- go in new bows but they certainly did use it.
It was when an excerpt from that article was re-printed in PA in 2002 that set it all in motion again.
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I think I'd rather have "perfect" arrows than a bow! Fun conversation...
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Perfection is purely a definitional sort of thing, ...and I adjust that definition everytime I pick up my tools! For me, it mostly relates to the bow surviving to shoot my personal standard of 300 plus arrows during shoot-in without blowing up. If I attach too many demands to this otherwise fun and creative process, it feels like I can drain the better part of the joy out of the whole affair.
I'm not doing this to feed myself or fend off enemies, though it's nice to imagine that I possibly could do so ::) >:D, so the pressure is off somewhat. This fact allows me to experiement and 'play' with the process more than I otherwise would be able to do. I'm sure that if the king's agent were coming 'round to evaluate my quality of workmanship and determine whether or not to re-approve my licensure or guild standing, it would be a very different process for me.
As it is, the greatest pressure I have right now, is making a give away bow for a friend on these forums or the kids at church. ...which is more than plenty I assure you!
OneBow
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Perfection is a movable feast depending on what you are trying to acheive!
It depends on the stave, the time the tools, the design you are maybe messing with.
If I'm doing an experimental bow, then finish doesn't come into it, unless maybe it works out.
If I'm trying to make a bow in one hour then the time is the criteria.
Sometimes it's the look, sometimes it's the speed. sometimes it's the draw weight t'was ever thus.
Sometimes it's just the humour!
See what I'm working on now... The Monkey Bow...
Dunno why it's called that ::)
Del
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You might want to leave it a tad stiff there Del
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You might want to leave it a tad stiff there Del
Whoop whoop ah ah ah!
That's Monkey for:-
"Its just above the grip, the arrow pass will be alongside the mouth so he's spittin' 'em out" :laugh:
Del
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That's perfect, Del. ;)
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After a perfect tiller is attained, perfection is available in every bow in my eye. If a guy uses jute for a handle? Then make it wrap evenly and uniformly all around, don't wind it up until its covered. If a guy uses stitched leather grips? Make sure the stitching runs up and down perfectly. If a guy uses overlays? Make them blend perfectly into the back. If a guy doesn't use overlays make your grooves line up perfectly. If a guy wipes on his finish? Take your time and eliminate runs, its easy to do. Its all relative to your style, but it certainly doesn't mean bells and whistles are required to build a "perfect" bow. And, sandpaper removes tool marks nicely..:)
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To me. Its knowing when to stop. And call it good.
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I like the word par better than perfect when it comes to bows. I have a very specific number for each style of bow I like to hit that I consider par. If I surpass that number when building a bow specificaly for performance I am happy. When I don't hit par I know I screwed up somewhere.
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when I posted my "ugly stick" bow, some thought it was beautiful, some not, some thought it was a perfect example of a primitive bow, what it comes down to is perception, there's a key for every lock, one man's beauty is another man's last call >:D, I try to make a perfect bow relating to ME, when you quit trying to achieve this you stop learning, and personally I don't want to stop learning, i'll get off the soapbox now :laugh:
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The way I look at it, God gave my a passion for building bows and I enjoy the process. If I dont give myself fully to building the best bow I possibly can, always try to improve, always try to learn, I'm just cheating myself.
If you strive for second class, you will get there every time!
Strive to build first class bows! Most will not be perfect but that should be the engine to drive you to improve.
Always remember though,beauty is in the eye of the beholder,do the best YOU are capable of.
Cody
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I think I'd rather have "perfect" arrows than a bow! Fun conversation...
I have to agree the "arrow" makes the bow "perfect" harmony ...........................
DBar