Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Clean_Missed on March 15, 2014, 05:59:47 pm
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Ok. Here is the problem. This is the second bow Im building on my own. Unbacked maple and 72" OAL, 70" N2N, 1-5/8" at the fades to 1/2" at the tips. I've been tillering and have made the rookie mistake of arriving at my intended draw weight(50#@29").... with terrible tiller. >:( So, I kept going to try and get the tiller to an acceptable point. So here I am, a bow thats 40# @ 28(not 29) that looks more like a war club than a bow that has gobs of hand shock. The question I am posing to everyone is whether i am pushing my luck to consider trimming the tips off to get a bit shorter bow with less handshock, 50# draw weight at 28"( there was some confusion over my buddies draw length) and that chance to redo my tips since these ones turned out terribly in my opinion. Am I going to end up whip tillered with an overstressed bow? I have some goat rawhide strips here i could try to back it with if I had too. Or do I abandon the project, begin again and be happy that I got a bow out of this at all. Its a gift for my future brother-in-law and my sister is paying for the materials. I would really like to end up with something that will look decent and and be a shooter. Opinions and guidance would be greatly appreciated.
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At that length you can pike it and heat treat to bring weight back up. Take an inch off each side at a time and see what it weighs.
Don
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I don't know man, I don't think the tiller looks that bad.
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I don't think the tiller looks that bad either. The first osage bow I built came out way under weight so I reduced it 1 " on each end, flipped the tips "lightly" and heat treated the belly. It still ended up 5# below and it had terrible hand shock. I've built a dozen since then and haven't encountered the same problems although I will admit I haven't yet built my perfect bow.
I would attempt the above suggestions. Don't fret over it, they will keep getting better.
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I guess what Don says,... Maybe glue a lam on the back to bring the weight up and lighten the tips to get rid of the hand shock. I have been lucky never had a bow with hand shock. ???
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It does not look that bad to me. It's not whip tillered, and if it was that would mean it's not terribly over stressed. A whip tillered bow will typically not have handshock. I guess I'm questioning, not your tillering skills, but your analysis of what you have. 72 inches is long. Cut an inch off each end and your still ok IMO. It would help to see an unbraced pick, but heat in some reflex and temper it after you cut the tips. See what you get, but I think it looks pretty good. If your at 40lbs, that should raise it a good bit.
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Thanks for all the advice so far. I guess I should clarify what I'm after a bit. I was unhappy with my tiller when I arrived at my initial 50#. I kept tillering till it was at what I thought was an acceptable point(my full draw picture) but it was down to 40# by thAt point. Now my goal is to bring the poundage back up to 50# at 28" and eliminate some hand shock without compromising the integrity of the bow. I'll put a few pictures up of braced, unbraced, tips, etc a bit later today. Thanks again for everyone's input thus far. It sure helps the learning curve having experienced bowyers to bounce ideas off of. :)
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After revisiting and taking a closer look I agree with SLIMBOB. My thinking is if you pike it 1" on each end you may pick up 5# and from looking at it on paint it sure doesn't seem to be whip tillered. First thing I would do is shorten it and check it again.
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I am pretty new to this and have never heard the term "pike" before. Does this mean trim the tips? Sorry for the elementary question.
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cut an inch off each end ...thats pikeing...have you tried a heavier arrow...might reduce that "bump" that seems like handshock but isnt...i call it a pleasent thump...lol
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I agree with what's been said. I would trim the tips you could reduce them to 3/8" wide. That should help a little with the bump in the hand too.
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Ok, here are a few other pictures as requested SLIMBOB. My picture of it braced didn't turn out so ill get that up later. Right now based on replies so far, Im thinking that I will take 1" off each tip and see where I end up for weight. There is also one edge of the bottom limb I'm a bit concerned about as there looks to be some rings running off the edge. Is it bad enough a person should be backing? Thanks in advance for your replies.
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Here's my thoughts...it looks pretty good my opinion. 40lbs is not a bad weight. It's taken some set. If you pike it, it will likely take more set. You can lessen that by loosening up the inner limbs a little but your handle might pop off. If it were mine, I would temper and add a little reflex to get the tips back in front of the handle. I'd pretty it up and call it good at 45lbs or so.
Round all the edges of your overlays up. Looks good for a second bow.
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Only tiny fault I can see in your tiller is the fade of your top limb is a bit stiff. It's definitely not whip tillered.
Piking does work, but I'm not a big fan. It just means you've made an error and ended up somewhere you didn't want to be. Also, if you're going to back a bow, do it before you tiller it. If the bow survives unbacked, it didn't need to be. Backing it after won't save you later, eliminate set, or add draw weight if it's rawhide.
Try and refine your tips a bit more. They can be smaller.
I wouldn't muck with heat treating yet, either. Tiller out some more bows first. Get your skill level up and your eye sharpened, and then get fancy.
For you, the learning curve right now will be very steep. You will likely make small mistakes often right now, but every one of them will be a valuable lesson.
You're doing really good, Bud! You're cranking out some bows and they're all surviving. Carry on!
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If the bow is 40# @28" then at 29" it should be around 43# heat treat and reflex a bit and it could possibly make weight. The fades could use a little bending IMO but that'd more than likely drop more weight. If u pike it then u have to retiller. 72" long is still plenty of length.
U can always steam the ends and put hooks on
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I made a decision and have commenced with piking the bow. Part of the decision is due to the fact that I had a different string ordered than I thought (for a 68" N2N bow) so I have Trimmed the tips, beveled the ends and spliced on cherry tips with a purple heart overlay. I'm hoping that I'll have gained a few pounds after re-tillering. I am still toying with the idea of trying to temper the belly with some heat. I watched Marc St.Louis' videos on heat treating and it doesn't seem to difficult, just time consuming. As of yet Im undecided.
Adam, I know you said I should save the fancy stuff for a few bows down the road but he Lord hates a coward, right? ;)
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OK, my opinion of the tiller, badly whip tillered with real hingy spots about a foot in from the tips and stiff spots for aways from the handle out. Make a tillering gizmo, get the rest of the limbs bending evenly and then pike the bow.
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OK, my opinion of the tiller, badly whip tillered with real hingy spots about a foot in from the tips and stiff spots for aways from the handle out. Make a tillering gizmo, get the rest of the limbs bending evenly and then pike the bow.
Badly whip tillered?? I think you should clean your glasses and have another look. If you think that's whip tillered, you've never seen a whip tillered bow. Other than the top fade being a bit stiff, his tiller is fine.
Here's what whip tillered looks like:
Not sure who is in the pic... just found this with a google search.
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Don't let me hold you back, Brendon! Pretty much everyone hates a coward! You wanna heat treat... I say go for it!
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I would go for it if that's what u think, my first bow I did things ppl said I shouldn't. Hell I still do >:D
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I was very skeptical about the risk/reward when I first started heat tempering. I have found little risk if any.
Don't burn it clean thru.
Don't heat treat the back.
Outside of that, it's pretty simple with a lot of upside.
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I have made a lot of bows and call them as I see them. Run a gizmo up those limbs at it will show you exactly what I mentioned, guaranteed. 145 bows worth of experience has given me a pretty good eye and my glasses are spotlessly clean.
As for the picture, that is not what a whip tillered bow looks like, that is what poorly tillered, hinged at mid limb bow looks like looks like. A whip tillered bow is bending some some out of the fades(the bow in the picture is not) and a lot more in the outer third.
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Well, Eric, regardless of how many bows you've made, your 'eye' in this case is off. This bow is not 'badly whip tillered.' It's not even a little whip tillered. Did you look at the pic of a whip tillered bow? Do yourself a favour and look at it again and then go back and look at this bow. I'm not sure what you're seeing.
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Didn't mean for this to get into a P$$$ing match, you all make bows any way you like, call them anything you want.
My bows have won dozens of state championships, 4 or 5 national championships and finished 2nd and 3rd in the worlds this year, I know a little about making bows and how to tiller them.
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I too made the observation that this bow is not whip tillered. I don't believe it is based on my definition of a whip tillered bow. I stand behind that observation, again based on my definition. A little loose in the outer limbs maybe, but even that is debatable. Not taking anything away from your expertise or accomplishments at all. We just disagree on this one.
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Didn't mean for this to get into a P$$$ing match, you all make bows any way you like, call them anything you want.
My bows have won dozens of state championships, 4 or 5 national championships and finished 2nd and 3rd in the worlds this year, I know a little about making bows and how to tiller them.
Seems to me the only one making this a pi$$ing match is you. What do your self congratulatory accomplishments have to do with the tiller on this bow?
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what just happened?? lol ???
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I think what happened was, someone stepped in it and now they're trying to scrape it off their shoe.
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Tiller is good. It is very slightly whip tillered but that's ok as it is a good design for a bow that is a little longer than neede.
I'd enjoy it as is.
Jawge
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Oops. I missed that you started piking. :) Jawge
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I wouldn't say the bow is whip tillered but I do see several areas where the bend is not transitioning evenly. I think the gizmo is a good tool for getting a bow to brace but I don't care for the circular tiller it gives. A 72" bow doesn't need all that limb bending. If it were me I woulkd play with the bow a bit and learn from it. Pike it, heat treat it, maybe slightly reflex the limbs while heat treating. The two limbs are bending about the same amount but they are not bending in the same places. I wouldn't get attached to the bow. Not bad at all for your second effort though, pretty good actually.
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When I was new at this, and a senior member said something like: 'The two limbs are bending about the same amount but they are not bending in the same places' I always wondered why they wouldn't suggest ways to improve or fix the problem they were seeing. It didn't seem helpful.
I think as experienced bowyers, we should probably offer advice which is helpful in solving the problems new people are struggling with. For me, if I just say someone's work stinks (and I'm not saying that is the case here), I may risk offending them and discouraging further effort. Just a thought.
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Here is the bending bow after piking it and redoing the tips. I put it back on the tiller tree and it pulled 55@ 28" with no additional tillering and the bend looked acceptable to me so I finished it. All that is left now is the grip and shelf. I opted not to heat treat it more out of impatience than anything but I think I will try it on my next bow. Here are a few pics. Let me know your thoughts and thanks for everyones input. It all helped and kept me thinking even though things did get a bit heated. ;) That was not my intent, but I am open to all opinions. I might not agree with all them but at least I have some different points of view! Thanks again!
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there ya go, looks good man.
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ya did good...THAT...looks like a bow! 8)
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Looks good, I think you did a fine job. Your friend should love it.
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Really nice! I think you can be very proud of that when you gift it to your friend. Your tips look much better as well. Nice work.
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Hey! That looks great! Your tips look much better. I think your tiller looks pretty decent too. You got that top fade moving more. It's still doing a lot of the bending mid-limb, but that looks better. Nice job... your first solo bow >50#. Set looks minimal and your brace profile is sweet. Good job Buddy!