Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Knosaj on February 11, 2014, 11:06:24 pm
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Do I have this remotely correct? I heard this on you tube some place
A board bow is one made with nice end grain that runs up and down or any angle so long the grain runs the length of the board on all sides (ideally speaking)
A stave is actually split from a trunk or branch that will allow for a flat grained bow where the builder tries to refine the back to only a single grain layer?
To me the method of isolating a section of wood to use for a bow is irrelevant. (Comment not intended to fire up any traditionalist out there)
So do these terms refer to the grain itself?
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Good question. I'm looking forward to seeing some answers on this one. They both make a good bow, and they both start out as just a piece of wood as far as I'm concerned.
"Board bow" is typically the name given to a bow that is started from a pre-cut piece of wood. A stave is split from a tree trunk or branch. As far as I've been told anyway. I don't think the grain has anything to do with the term board bow or stave. Maybe someone else has a better definition.
Tattoo Dave
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Wood with much grain run off is likely to fail .Some species are more tolerant than others.( Hickory, Hop hornbeam for eg.)
Staves are split from trees as you stated ,but not all woods require removal of the sapwood. Woods like Osage benefit from it but yew prefers to have a couple of rings of sapwood. Most "whitewood"staves (Ash ,Oak ,Hickory, Maple,Hop Hornbeam, etc.) are generally made with the layer under the bark as the back of the bow.
To confuse things even more , you could "decrown" a stave which kind of makes it a board . You could also use limbs and saplings. Some woods work better than others for this. For example , you would be hard pressed to find a Privet or Lilac big enough to call a log ;) You would likely get one bow from the trunk. Two if you were lucky. Both make excellent bows , however.
The grain on a bow ,you will find, is of the utmost importance. Why don't you try making a couple. No greater teacher than experience! You'll find lots of help on this site.
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I'll take a stave over a board every day
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I'll take a stave over a board every day
I just laid out an ash board ,cut it on the band saw and planed the saw marks off in about 15 mins. It is now floor tillered and ready for the long string with a quick addition of temp nocks. Will have it shooting in about 45 mins to an hour.
Just saying! sometimes boards have their place ;)
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I agree, I'll prob be picking up my first chunk of wood in the next couple of days to start this weekend. I held off this past weekend after digging through the lumber until I understood more.
So, a flat bow I am assuming is made with flat grain? I mean "chasing" down the A single grain layer again on the back?
I'm probably all screwed up by now. Lol
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I'll take a stave over a board every day
I just laid out an ash board ,cut it on the band saw and planed the saw marks off in about 15 mins. It is now floor tillered and ready for the long string with a quick addition of temp nocks. Will have it shooting in about 45 mins to an hour.
Just saying! sometimes boards have their place ;)
Ok? Lol
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I'm not sure exactly what you mean bit it sounds pretty close
One of the most important things in making a bow is paying attention to grain, you want as little grain runout/ violation of the grain as possible. Most trees don't grow perfectly strait they bend and wiggle and often twist around themselves but boards are always cut in straight sections from the tree regardless of how it is growing so when choosing a board you are essentially looking for one cut from a perfectly straight tree and has been cut with the grain of that perfectly straight tree, I belive your reference to end grain is referring to how the wood is cut in comparison to the growth rings I'm no expert in boards but I belive that most types of cuts will work for a bow but some are preferred.
Now with a stave you don't have to worry about finding perfect grain because they are split and follow the grain naturally with all it's curves and twist, I am not sure what you mean by flat grain, the way the back of a stave bow is prepared varries with species and design usaually the back is prepared either by chasing a growth ring so that only one growth ring is visable along the whole back or by striping of the bark (usually white woods ) so that you use the single growth ring on the out side of the tree that is naturally there. Hope that might clear up some of your confusion.
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A piece of wood designated for building a bow is a stave whether it be a board stave or tree stave. A board stave is sawn out cutting through the grain in most cases and a tree stave is split out following the gain of the wood. Both type of stave are capable of making good bows if you do your part.
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To answer your last ? A flatbow is a style/design and has nothing to do with grain orientation, , although grain orientation has everything to do with getting a good bow from a board stave, alot of negativity can be found about board bows, a bias as such, but a properly built board bow will shoot with the best of them, bub
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Board staves, tree staves - their all wood - and can make good bows. I like the satisfaction that I get from harvesting my own wood from the area I like in and making a bow out of it. But I have bought some boards from the box stores and made bows from these too. Get some wood however you can and build.
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To me boards have no personality. Several years back I picked out a good red oak board and started making a bow. I got it tillered out and then put it in the corner. I just couldn't get into it. I ended up cutting it up for spacers.
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If you follow the logic presented in TBB books there is no difference they both make a good bow one is not superior to another in performance. I have an ash bow roughed out from a large board, chased a ring and all just like a stave from a tree. If you live in the desert like me bows from boards help fill the need.
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I build strictly board bows. I try to get quarter sawn lumber when I can (grain is vertical when viewed from the end), but regardless of what "cut" of board you get, just make sure the grain runs straight from end to end.
I personally can't stand stave bows. I used to be an architect, so I like good clean lines, straight, and no character. Besides, stave bows take too long, and quite frankly I'm too lazy for that. In the end, the bullseye has no idea if it was just hit with an arrow flung from a board or a stave... The only difference between boards and staves are purely aesthetics.
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The only difference between boards and staves are purely aesthetics.
Considering you build strictly board bows. Are you sure of that?
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Besides, stave bows take too long, and quite frankly I'm too lazy for that
I dunno. Might have some disagreement there. The only difference I can see is marking out a profile but with some practice it's just as easy on a stave.
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The only difference between boards and staves are purely aesthetics.
Considering you build strictly board bows. Are you sure of that?
I'm not unfamiliar with staves... That's why I don't like them! ;)
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10-4
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[I'm not unfamiliar with staves... That's why I don't like them! ;)
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Same here about boards. ;) ;D ;D ;D Both make great bows,just a little more to a
log/limb stave than a board. O man did I say that, ??? opened a can of worms right there. ;) ;D hope everyone is in a good mood this morning,break out the popcorn. ;) :)
Pappy
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Boardhawk here says....boards rule and staves drool!!!! 8) :laugh:
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OK, before we get World War Bow started in here, I suppose I should have given my disclaimer first - My views are mine alone, and are merely the opinion of one man. They are neither "right" nor "wrong," just my opinion based on my experience.
Having said that... I love boards. ;)
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That's a good answer WS. My opinion is the opposite. But Ive only built bows for 4 1/2-5 total years, not very long.
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I still can't understand how you know how the grain runs by looking at a board. I fully understand that if the growth rings run straight up the board on the top and sides but how does that tell me if the grain has some wiggle in it.
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Well said WS, only built a couple of board bow,didn't like the process so stayed with staves, I am very much not an engineer or architect so I like crooked lines and things that never work out just like I planed. ;) :)
Pappy
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I started building bows with tree staves(boards hadn't been invented when I started ;D ) but I went to boards, backing most of them with hickory, then I came back to the real world ::) and stave bows are where my love is. The hickory backed lemonwood was the first board bow I've build in quite a few years.
For me, taking a bow from raw tree stave to finished product is where its at...although removing bark and sapwood from 10 year old staves seem to be a lot harder than it used to be. ;D ::)
Dean, if the grain lines run full length on both the top and sides of the board, with few or no runoffs it should be good for a bow. It takes a good looking over to be sure.
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I still can't understand how you know how the grain runs by looking at a board. I fully understand that if the growth rings run straight up the board on the top and sides but how does that tell me if the grain has some wiggle in it.
In my experience, if you're looking at a quarter sawn board, and on the flat face, you see that the grain runs end to end, what happens on the inside matters little, especially if you're backing it with hickory, which I always do.
When in doubt, play with exotic woods, I love making hickory backed jatoba bows... It's a tough wood, and the grain is usually great because it has a yearlong growing season.
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Let me talk about board choice a little bit, Knosaj.
There are 3 board cuts. The best way to identify them is to look at the grain on the butt or end (smallest part of the board). All will make bows.
There's plane sawn. End grain looks like this =
There's 1/4 sawn. End grain looks like this ||
There's rift sawn. End grain looks like this //
For plane and rift, look at the face or edge grain. It must be straight tip to tip with a couple of run outs allowed per limb for a 50# bow.
For 1/4 sawn you have to look at the edge grain and it must be straight tip to tip. No run outs. None.
My site has board info as well as log stave info.
If you want me to talk a little about log stave choice. I will. Let me know.
Jawge
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I've found staves to be more robust in general. They break less during the build and seem to outlast board bows in general.
I've worked with hard-maple, hophornbeam, pin cherry, white ash, and yellow birch in stave form. And I've worked with white oak, hard-maple, black cherry, hickory, and elm in board form. I've made half a dozen board bows, and nearly two dozen stave bows.
I've exploded about the same number of board bows as I've completed, and retired a couple finished board bows due to ticks or cracks that they've developed over time. I've yet to explode a stave, but I have had a few take so much set as to be useless. To be fair though my stave bows are all newer and probably have not been shot as much as some of my board bows.
I don't think there is a difference in the performance of the final product, but I do think there is a difference between the durability and reliability of both the unfinished and finished product. This is in general of course. There will be some board bows that last longer than some stave bows to be sure. It seems there are always exceptions to every rule in this craft. But on the whole I think stave bows stand the test of time better.
I will admit that I havn't been doing this that long though. And I made my stave bows with more experience than I did my board bows. But overall I trust my stave bows more and I don't see myself returning to boards any time soon.
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I haven't made a board bow yet, but plan to. From my perspective, a board is a board and capable of making a great bow. A stave is personal, if you cut it, split it, worked it, made a bow from it, that bow is special..... :D
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Besides, stave bows take too long, and quite frankly I'm too lazy for that
I dunno. Might have some disagreement there. The only difference I can see is marking out a profile but with some practice it's just as easy on a stave.
Im gonna disagree with you too I guess if you use bandsaws and belt sanders then yea there might not be a difference but I use strictly hand tools even to harvest my wood and staves are much more work
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, a bias as such,
Nice pun.
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, a bias as such,
Nice pun.
[/quote
Glad somebody caught that
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if i chase a ring on a board and make a bow out of it, when i give it to you and say its from a tree stave, would you even second guess me? or would you be able to tell right away it was from a board?
the answer, no, you would be non the wiser so enough with this boards are inferior stuff, wood is wood.
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My shop and tools are more set up for boards so I like them more. Plus you can laminate different woods together to get the best characteristics of both of them (I guess the same can be said for staves but it's more labor intensive).
You have to be carefull when buying lumber from someone else. Logs may have been left out in the elements too long, or it could be too dry from the kiln, etc.
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There's a right way to making bows from staves.....and then there's boards ;D >:D
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ok who wants to put this to the test? two people make the bows with the same exact wood, design, draw, and weight. one is made from a stave and another from a board. each made by a bowyer who has mastered them.
i vote for a Chris vs. Chris (blackhawk vs. pearldrums) build off.
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Boards are just fine. But without a hard backing they are very limited IMO. Its not easy heating in an RD shape into a board, its not easy bending statics into a board, its not easy heating in 4" of reflex into a board. Conversely, its all easy to do with tree staves. But if you want to mess with glues, planers and hard backing a board can be any shape a stave can be.
Jordo Ive only built maybe 15-20 boards, Im far from an expert. For that matter, Im far from an expert on either side of this debate!
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i meant blacky build the board and you the stave. and i dont think anyone would debate that your one of the top bowyers on here and plus you guys are close(or atlease i think you are) and can actually meet up and compare the two in person.
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Trying to build two identical bows, one from a board and one from a tree stave doesn't seem practical or balanced to me. Board bows are pretty cut n dry to lay out but with a tree stave you follow the grain of the stave to set up your bow. I like the challenge of unwrapping a bow from a tree stave and going where the stave wants to take me. Board bows don't challenge me enough. I don't mean this as a negative statement about board bows. Look at most boo backed bows. They are made from a board with a backing and they are top shelf as far as performance goes. I don't build boo backed bows because I prefer selfbows from tree staves.
Boards give more folks the chance to build a wood bow because boards are relatively cheap and available. They are a great learning bow stave but they can also make a high performance bow so they cover a wide range of folks and abilities.
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I still can't understand how you know how the grain runs by looking at a board. I fully understand that if the growth rings run straight up the board on the top and sides but how does that tell me if the grain has some wiggle in it.
It is not easy. I am trying to teach myself to visualize in 3D where the board originated in the tree with varying levels of success depending on the board and the wood species. I have read the chapter on board bows in TBB (chapter 2 volume #2) probably 15 times and will continue until I can wrap my head around this skill. The real trick is learning to read the wood fiber direction which is different than grain. There is a neat trick where you look at all four corners and find where the rings converge to V shapes, mentally peel one of the V sections off the board and you can see how the board lay in the tree. If I understand what I have read correctly it is easier to build a more reliable bow from a stave because the wood fibers are oriented correctly automatically when you chase a ring etc.
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these would be self bows. and itll be all about performance, not looks or the amount of work that goes into them since thats what matters most.
no offense taken, i love board bows but it does get very cookie cutter and boring thats why i make stave bows as well. i personally havent notice a major differnce between the two performance wise
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A tree stave runs with the grain making it inherently stronger than a board that was sawn out, cutting through the grain. By choosing the right board with the right grain configuration you can make that difference narrower. Lumber today is sawn out to get the most usable materials from a log with very little thought to the grain. For constructing buildings this is adequate , for bows you have to choose the board with the right grain configuration and not too many of them in a stack of lumber. In the old days when lumber was quarter sawn it was sawn to maximize the strength of the grain. You couldn't get as much materials out of a log but what you got was stronger. If you can find true quarter sawn lumber today that would be a good source for bow staves. Also with lumber you never know how that wood was handled from stump to store shelf. It doesn't really matter for building materials because one 2x4 helps it's neighbors hold up the building. A bow is a highly(relatively)stressed use of the wood so you want the woods positive characteristics to be at their max, whether it be the wood grain or fungi free bow building material.
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My goodness. Gotta fight the same battles every 5 years with new bowyers. LOL.
At least I no longer hear that kiln dried lumber won't make bows.
My board bows are generally faster than log bows. I test with flight shooting; This is probably due to their flat backs and flat bellies.
I've never broken a board bow from wood I've chosen. I wish I could say that for log stave bows. LOL.
Boards are easier to turn into bows than logs are. They are homogenous and lack character which is why I haven't made any board bows in awhile.
Boards are just as strong as log staves probably stronger provided the grain is straight tip to tip.
Beginners break bows -log and stave. Boards will break because of poorly chosen wood. Poor grain, knots.
Boards are a viable alternative for many.
Jawge
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Jordo pop a cold one and chill bro, y'all are making too big a deal out of this, look I've mostly built board bows, I've built a lot of them, and I have built bows from tree splits, the ONLY real difference to me is a tree stave takes more thought and becomes more personal to the builder, they have more personality, bub
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Jordo pop a cold one and chill bro, y'all are making too big a deal out of this, look I've mostly built board bows, I've built a lot of them, and I have built bows from tree splits, the ONLY real difference to me is a tree stave takes more thought and becomes more personal to the builder, they have more personality, bub
thats exactly my point, theres not a big enough difference to warrant being argued over. i would actually really like to do a side by side comparison though simply out of curiosity.
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For me it is availability that rule.depending on where i live staves of bowworthy wood is rare to say the least.
Beggars cant be choosers...i happily ruin whatever wood i get my grubby hands on,be it stave or board ;D
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Jordo pop a cold one and chill bro, y'all are making too big a deal out of this, look I've mostly built board bows, I've built a lot of them, and I have built bows from tree splits, the ONLY real difference to me is a tree stave takes more thought and becomes more personal to the builder, they have more personality, bub
thats exactly my point, theres not a big enough difference to warrant being argued over. i would actually really like to do a side by side comparison though simply out of curiosity.
well I know you have hickory boards, get a hickory tree stave and build two bows of the same design / length everything, same guy has to build them with the same skill set for an accurate comparison
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then i guess ill have to find me some hickory
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Boards don't have to be backed with anything. Best to choose straight grained stock.
No backing needed.
Ah yes what is straight grained stock?
Hard to recognize but if you go to my site you can see a straight grained board.
I started making bows long around '89 in the last century.
My addiction was insatiable.
I ran out of bow wood.
Then I picked up TBB2. Forgot the year. 94?
I started following Tim Baker's directions. Made some board bows.
Boards are just another option.
It doesn't have to be either...or.
It can be both.
Jawge
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x2 with jawge
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My 2c: I've just finished my 7th read oak board bow (no hickory at Lowes) and have made more from staves. Of the 7, so far only one has broken and it was well after finishing it. I flight test all my bows and have generally experienced the same performance from staves and boards, though I will note my most efficient happens to be from an osage stave. Board bows are much easier to build as they typically don't have any knots and bends to contend with. I'm helping 2 beginners now do board bows as their first. I have backed mine in linen, cotton, and raw hide; though I'm sure most would have held up fine without it. My board bow poundage's range from 40 - 60. I've just look for the growth rings that run the length of the board as much as possible, never found one that goes the whole way yet, and ideally ends with the horizontalish = rings (not sure how necessary this is). Starting with a tree/log/stave definitely has a cool factor but board are just cut logs after all so no hate here. ;) Good luck man!
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After seeing what a few like baker can do with a board it would be pretty silly to say they dont make good bows.l have to say though that theres nothing like taking a tree down and building a bow from there.
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Some may say that a board is a board, is a board. But I beg to differ there are so many variations with board material. 2 lams, mulitple lams, take down, straight board and I won't get into the other type here ;D lets just say Traditional ::)
I just like working with square flat stock. But I do know that the work involved in making one from a stave is time consuming and only one variation, its a stave, chase a ring, tiller it and its a bow.
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i agree with slackbunny that staves seem more robust ,a very close or at par lam style and lastly self boards from what ive seen so far.i think the idea of a board bow(decrowned stave)has been around for a while with the neolithic,stellmor or backwards bow.i don't get bored with so called cookie cutters because ive never built two the same from board stock and my experience with staves is limited.i just build with whatever i can get my hands on with no bias. ;D
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Jordo pop a cold one and chill bro, y'all are making too big a deal out of this, look I've mostly built board bows, I've built a lot of them, and I have built bows from tree splits, the ONLY real difference to me is a tree stave takes more thought and becomes more personal to the builder, they have more personality, bub
+1 . You guys are comparing apples to (osage) ;)oranges. Two different critters. It's like asking what design is best. They all have their place.
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Opps. Lol. Great stuff guys!
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My goodness. Gotta fight the same battles every 5 years with new bowyers. LOL.
At least I no longer hear that kiln dried lumber won't make bows.
Yes, these threads are getting more reasonable these days. Good to see.
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;) ;D ;D Still at it I see. :)
Pappy
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To me the most satisfying part of building selfbows is taking it from tree to bow. I enjoy the whole process from picking out the right tree all the way to rubbing on the finish. Board bows are boring and have no personality and theres really not much primitive about them. They are machined and sawn out flat. Im not saying thers any difference in performance if designed properly. If I were limited to building board bows I would go ahead and move into building FG bows since the material is all machined flat anyways. Just my opinion
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To me the most satisfying part of building selfbows is taking it from tree to bow. I enjoy the whole process from picking out the right tree all the way to rubbing on the finish. Board bows are boring and have no personality and theres really not much primitive about them. They are machined and sawn out flat. Im not saying thers any difference in performance if designed properly. If I were limited to building board bows I would go ahead and move into building FG bows since the material is all machined flat anyways. Just my opinion
...so, then, what you're saying is, ...Board Bows = Fiberglass bows. Hmmm.... (That should set the kindling to sparks!)
OneBow
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Naw. Boards are still wood. I sure wouldn't want to be limited to only boards, but I like to do a couple board bows once in a while. When someone wants to get started for cheap or free I have no trouble building them a D style board donation. They certainly have a place in the community. Let's not be too harsh against the use of boards. It actually took me longer to figure out how to get a bow from a board than from a stave, but that is probably because I wasn't paying good attention to the selection and design criteria.
That said, staves make very pretty bows.
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I personally can't stand stave bows. I used to be an architect, so I like good clean lines, straight, and no character.
It seems like I came to this thread late in the game, lol. I have had this moldering in the back of my mind for a while. While I wouldn't go so far as to say I can't stand stave bows, as I have never made one, I am not a huge fan of bows heavy on the character. It is almost a joke between my wife and I about how much I don't like non-symmetry. I am an Engineer and I like things straight and square and orderly, lol. I would have to say in the debate over stave vs board, it is merely a personal preference. Several guys have made great cases for both types. If you like character, a stave is a must...very hard to get a character bow from a board. If you like smooth clean symmetrical bows, teasing one out of a stave is much more difficult. (not impossible...I have seen some amazing ones on here)
All that being said, I really hope that sometime I will be able to get my hands on a stave or two and try a bow that way. Crossing my fingers that I can get some ash staves come spring...but then I have to dry them so I am a long way out from working a stave, lol.
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Skarhand it is pretty easy to get a clean straight [cookie cutter] bow from a stave if you use pipe straight staves such as most ash I have used and also Hickory.You just lay them out just like you would a board. :)
Pappy
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This thread wasn't meant to trash any kind of bows, board or stave. Build what you want and enjoy the journey. I understand folks with engineering minds(well, not really ;D ) are preprogramed to straight, flat and uniform materials so being able to convert that mindset to wood bows is an accomplishment for sure. You still have to understand the basic principles of wood bow building and the tension and compression stresses and the wood's structural values to be able to successfully build an all wood bow. It really isn't cookie cutter archery.
My mind doesn't work like that. I love the challenge of taking a tree stave and whatever it has to offer and finding the bow inside. Generally for me at least, the stave will tell me what it wants to be and if I pay attention the stave will guide me to successful (most of the time) results.
Over the last 20 years or so both tree stave and board stave bows have been used to get us to where we are today. Tim Baker experimented with about any type of wood you can think of. Many if not all were from boards. If it weren't for him, Paul Comstock, Steve Gardner(Badger), Marc St Louis and many others we'd still be debating whether we could use whitewoods or boards at all. Before then most bows were made from osage, yew and lemonwood. FYI, most lemonwood bows were made from boards because that is what was available.
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I personally can't stand stave bows. I used to be an architect, so I like good clean lines, straight, and no character.
It seems like I came to this thread late in the game, lol. I have had this moldering in the back of my mind for a while. While I wouldn't go so far as to say I can't stand stave bows, as I have never made one, I am not a huge fan of bows heavy on the character. It is almost a joke between my wife and I about how much I don't like non-symmetry. I am an Engineer and I like things straight and square and orderly, lol. I would have to say in the debate over stave vs board, it is merely a personal preference. Several guys have made great cases for both types. If you like character, a stave is a must...very hard to get a character bow from a board. If you like smooth clean symmetrical bows, teasing one out of a stave is much more difficult. (not impossible...I have seen some amazing ones on here)
All that being said, I really hope that sometime I will be able to get my hands on a stave or two and try a bow that way. Crossing my fingers that I can get some ash staves come spring...but then I have to dry them so I am a long way out from working a stave, lol.
I LOVE staves! I can make GREAT boards out of them! >:D
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Didn't mean to offend on the cookie cutter comment, just meant they could be laid out with a straight edge same as a board,pretty cut and dry as far as the lay out.
The rest is like building any other bow,even bend and spread the stress. :)
Pappy
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Absolutely no offence taken, lol. As I have heard others say here before, I have no problem with other people being wrong. ;)
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Anything or any type of wood is fair game in my book. I've made bows from some crazy stuff. I prefer staves but only because I can't seem to get clean boards with closed grain. When I went to NH recently for a visit, I took a stroll around a couple of the Depot stores and they had dozens of beautiful maple boards just sitting out in the open! What?! People haven't come in here and cleared the shelves of this treasure??!! I wanted to move back!
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I think Patrick makes a good point. I used to travel a lot for my job, it was surprising how different the wood selection and quality changes from place to place. I personally am a big fan of boards even though I find the character laden stave bows lots of you guys make totally amazing. I guess I'm spoiled I have an Amish saw mill about 5 miles from the house so good boards or staves are not so hard to come by. Either way, I respect the efforts of any bowyer regardless of what he started whittlin' on.
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Pat B, ok good post. We are making good progress here.
We've finally ascertained that kiln dried boards make bows. We've also agreed that whitewoods make good bows.
But some are still reluctant to say that a whitewood can make an excellent shooting character bow that will shoot just as well or better than any osage or yew bow.
:)
Yes?
Jawge
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ERC! ERC! ERC!...
And boards...
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now Jawge is just stirring the pot >:D
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George, I think Badger rectified that with his "Mass Theory" chapter in TBBIV. Any wood will make a good bow if it is designed for the characteristic of the wood. It seems to me that quite a few folks don't consider the wood's characteristic before they decide on the bow they want to make. They seem to have a preconceived idea of what they want to make and grab a piece of wood and jump right in. I'm just the opposite in most cases. I let the wood tell me what it wants to be.
Paul Comstock in his The Bent Stick is what got me thinking more about whitewoods as did Tim Bakers chapter in TBBI on "Design and Performance" and later in his revised chapter on Design and Performance in TBBIV.
I still don't understand why some folks thought kiln drying wood would make it unusable for bows. We heat treat wood and heat bend wood and store some bows in a hot ox to keep them dry. Why would a wood kiln be different.
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Old ways die hard, Pat.
Back in the 1800's and early 1900's English archery was popular in the US. Designing a hickory bow like a yew bow didn't always worked.
Subsequently, Native American style bows became popular..well that's a story for a another time.
I always let the stave, not just the wood, determine the design.
Some like to fit the design to the stave but wood and stave may not be right for it.
Jawge
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I believe a board bow will out shoot a stave bow made from the exact tree. If we had sister staves one decrowned given the same design, the decrowned stave will out shoot the natural stave. This is my opinion.
VMB
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Beggars cant be choosers...i happily ruin whatever wood i get my grubby hands on,be it stave or board ;D
Yup, same here. I haven't been able to cut any bow wood for over a year I think now, and I am out of staves, so I guess I will be making laminates for a while now. I like it all though, why not. I love the experience of harvesting and crafting your bow from A to B, I also like the process of building lam bows to dimensions as well, different experiences, but to me both are fun. And both can result in beautiful bows.
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To me the most satisfying part of building selfbows is taking it from tree to bow. I enjoy the whole process from picking out the right tree all the way to rubbing on the finish. Board bows are boring and have no personality and theres really not much primitive about them. They are machined and sawn out flat. Im not saying thers any difference in performance if designed properly. If I were limited to building board bows I would go ahead and move into building FG bows since the material is all machined flat anyways. Just my opinion
...so, then, what you're saying is, ...Board Bows = Fiberglass bows. Hmmm.... (That should set the kindling to sparks!)
Sometimes you just need to add your own character ;) some decoration looks good on character bows , some looks better on board bows IMHO
OneBow
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To me the most satisfying part of building selfbows is taking it from tree to bow. I enjoy the whole process from picking out the right tree all the way to rubbing on the finish. Board bows are boring and have no personality and theres really not much primitive about them. They are machined and sawn out flat. Im not saying thers any difference in performance if designed properly. If I were limited to building board bows I would go ahead and move into building FG bows since the material is all machined flat anyways. Just my opinion
...so, then, what you're saying is, ...Board Bows = Fiberglass bows. Hmmm.... (That should set the kindling to sparks!)
OneBow
An opinion is an opinion
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..... and why can't a board bow be primitive?
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Look at the bows Rich builds. Most are board bows.
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Man I just like to build bows. I think even from boards you can learn something from them most every time. My joy is to down to the shop and smell the dust and make shavings. Board look the same when your sweeping them up. I just love everything about wooden bows wheat her they look primitive or very modern, which you can achieve with either board or stave.
Matt
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Matt, that's why we are all here. We all love it. 8)
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I just want to mention that this bow started out as a kiln dried 2x4...Hickory...and it shoots 175-180 fps, even with a bit of set..If I had better manual dexterity, I would be making bows from staves, but arthritis prevents me from doing so....Build what you like and from what You are able......Peace Brothers
(http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab70/moshe868/20140125_150002_zps4a692e1e.jpg)
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Man I am getting to see some beautiful bows from this Topic. My opinion is staves or boards a selfbow is a selfbow if made from a single piece of wood, Any way that was what I was always told. I prefer staves over boards because first of all I have access to staves. I am just more comfortable knowing where the grain runs on a split stave. If I didn't have staves I would definitely use boards. You guys showing off your nice bows here take a look at this nice stave. Dean
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Total gem there Dean.
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Very nice bows,and that is one beautiful stave. :)
Pappy
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Well, I haven't read every post, but it's good to see so many people agreeing on the fact that a board makes a perfectly fine bow. I like making either. I've said it before, and again...If i can shoot a critter with it, it's a good bow! ;)
Tattoo Dave
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That us a very nice stave. Are you going to make that more than one nice stave. Looks like you have room for a belly split.
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Idaho
I got to take another ring or 2 off of it because I have some drying checks in the back so I think I will run out of wood for a belly split.It is wide enough to split it again but I would be taking another chance there also.
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That's a very nice snaky stave, Dean. Is it osage? Those thick rings remind me of mulberry. I have an osage stave similar to that but each annual ring snakes separately from the others making it almost impossible to make a successful bow from.
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Pat
Yes it is osage. i have looked at this stave from end to end and I think it will work as far as the grain goes. You really have look close on these as far as how the grain runs.. My last snake stave broke on the tree at 20". The grain had just a little run off past one fade I didn't follow. That is all it takes for it to be fire wood. Dean
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Gimme a piece of wood and I'll try and make a bow from it. Board or stave. Doesn't matter to me. I like it all! Even firewood sometimes. ;)
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Gimme a piece of wood and I'll try and make a bow from it. Board or stave. Doesn't matter to me. I like it all! Even firewood sometimes. ;)
X2 for me. Josh
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I've made many bows from both staves and boards. More boards, if I was counting, because dimensional lumber is more readily available for me. Also, the majority of my board lumber is not kiln dried... rather cut and seasoned like a stave.
I think they both have their pros and cons. I seriously doubt one has better performance over the other. I don't think one is easier or less challenging. If anyone thinks board bows are easy, lets see you make a 120#@32" maple backed yew warbow.
IMO, an experienced bowyer will learn to make bows from both. It will make you a better bow maker.
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I've made many bows from both staves and boards. More boards, if I was counting, because dimensional lumber is more readily available for me. Also, the majority of my board lumber is not kiln dried... rather cut and seasoned like a stave.
I think they both have their pros and cons. I seriously doubt one has better performance over the other. I don't think one is easier or less challenging. If anyone thinks board bows are easy, lets see you make a 120#@32" maple backed yew warbow.
IMO, an experienced bowyer will learn to make bows from both. It will make you a better bow maker.
applause, applause, great answer , bub
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I just don't buy into the stave vs board bias. "Staves are for purists, staves are harder, staves are better, boards are too easy, boards are for beginners, blah, blah, blah". Rubbish.
They're both wood, and have to be tillered. They both have to be designed properly to provide good performance and longevity. You need to be able to pick the right wood for either, and be able to deal with the challenges of both. I think all bow makers worth their salt should be able to see the value of both, and be able to make both.
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Lol this arguments still going on over something that mostly opinionated
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Lol this arguments still going on over something that mostly opinionated
Exactly....silly.
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There's a right way to making bows from staves.....and then there's boards ;D >:D
Sorry, Bryce... I see you as someone fuelling the bias. Try expanding your horizons with some laminated board bows. Sky's the limit. ;D >:D
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Lol that was back on pg 3! And also a joke see the laughing face ;)
I agree that some folks don't have access to gathering staves and some have an abundance.
I prefer the organic shape of a stave bow.
I have made plenty of board bows bud.
On a primitive archery site I've noticed a lack of love for hard-backed bows.
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I think you lot over the pond are just spoilt for choice. I have visited the few half decent timber merchants within a couple hours drive and found nothing suitable. Certainly not for a decent price.
I would imagine going further afield might get me something worthy of a bow but there certainly isn't anything at our local hardware shops, just orrible pine and if you are lucky some expensive oak with awful grain.
This is why I only use staves because I harvest them all my self. Being a bit of a control freak I am not sure I would like to use timber someone else has cut and seasoned as there is no tilling what they have done to it.
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Exactly. And that's one of the main reasons I generally don't use store bought boards... no telling how or where it grew, how long it layed outside, how the grain runs, etc.... and by that I mean the actual 'grain', not growth rings.
I have made board, backed, and multi lam bows from boards I cut from trees and IMO, they're much easier to design and tiller than stave bows with any 'character' at all.
The 120# @ 32" maple backed yew comment is an unfair comparison because those stats dramatically increase the challenge in stave bows as well... even with the most perfect yew or osage staves.
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I really enjoy making bows, any kind of bow. My budget will only allow for so many osage or yew staves which are both my first choice so I fill in my time with board bows, usually but not always wood or boo backed. I also really prefer to experiment with designs using board bows becuase of the lack of character and the much lower cost.
Something I really enjoy doing especially with hard maple is finding flat sawn boards and then chasing a ring on them. I spend an average of $50.00 per stave and am limiting myself to two a month. Boards are a neccessity for me to stay out of withdrawal.
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I really enjoy making bows, any kind of bow. My budget will only allow for so many osage or yew staves which are both my first choice so I fill in my time with board bows, usually but not always wood or boo backed. I also really prefer to experiment with designs using board bows becuase of the lack of character and the much lower cost.
Something I really enjoy doing especially with hard maple is finding flat sawn boards and then chasing a ring on them. I spend an average of $50.00 per stave and am limiting myself to two a month. Boards are a neccessity for me to stay out of withdrawal.
+1. However, I have to spend about $200 to get a decent yew or osage stave to my door.
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Exactly. And that's one of the main reasons I generally don't use store bought boards... no telling how or where it grew, how long it layed outside, how the grain runs, etc.... and by that I mean the actual 'grain', not growth rings.
I have made board, backed, and multi lam bows from boards I cut from trees and IMO, they're much easier to design and tiller than stave bows with any 'character' at all.
The 120# @ 32" maple backed yew comment is an unfair comparison because those stats dramatically increase the challenge in stave bows as well... even with the most perfect yew or osage staves.
And that's exactly my point Mr. Squirrel (and I believe perhaps yours too)... same level of difficulty making a laminated 120# bow as a 120# stave bow.
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Boards make great lumber to build racks to hold all my stave bows.....;)
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You're a funny guy, Chris. ::)
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Pretty sure the original post was just looking for a definition of each, not pages of reasons why one is supposedly superior to the other. Just sayin... :o
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+1. However, I have to spend about $200 to get a decent yew or osage stave to my door.
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Every now and then I will drop 100.00 plus shipping, as soon as I get my elb tiller perfected I will uy one of those perfect staves.
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I believe a board bow will out shoot a stave bow made from the exact tree. If we had sister staves one decrowned given the same design, the decrowned stave will out shoot the natural stave. This is my opinion.
VMB
Just to fuel the fire, I believe this to be a challenge you would lose. With some woods, particularly tension weak woods, this may be true, but with many other woods like some Elm, Hickory, and Osage, your "de-crowned" stave would often have less cast. Take a high crowned tension strong wood and build a bow to say 50lbs at 28 inches and it takes an inch of set. Take the near identical sister stave, de-crown it and build a bow to the same specks. At a minimum it will take more set and lose some of its cast. I believe (not convinced just pretty sure) it might have more mass as well making it slower still. It may be less prone to snapping in half, but it wont be faster.
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WS, as a former architect myself, and after building a dozen board bows and am now completing my first stave bow, I have to say, for me, it's has been more satisfying making this stave bow. Originating from a tree cut down in my yard, hand splitting it into staves, taking one stave and shaping it with hand tools into bow form, etc., patiently drying it, and now doing final tillering....it's been a wonderful experience so far. In the beginning, board bows were exciting, but after a while, the challenge lessened there. I kinda figured out the formula with the limited kinds of wood that were available to me. Staves are more challenging and definitely more satisfying. It's like Mies van der Rohe vs. Antoni Gaudi in architecture, I suppose. Balance in modernism vs. the implied freedom that free form provides. Both styles work, but one is more, like I would say of stave bows, more challenging.
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Reminds me of the Stephen Bishop song "On and On". :)
Jawge
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I like bows made of wood!hope I don't sound. Simple!
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Reminds me of the Stephen Bishop song "On and On". :)
Jawge
I think this debate will never end, and I don't think it's a bad thing!
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Do, ADP, noting wrong with that. Jawge
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I have a question. Board bows that have been discussed are mostly self or backed bows. What about board laminates? I could just work the bow from the board. Or, instead of cutting the board as it is, I cut it into strips (say, 1/4 inch) and then laminate them (with TB III or similar) back into a "board" blank and then make the bow from this four or five-laminate. how will these two approaches yield different results?
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I have a question. Board bows that have been discussed are mostly self or backed bows. What about board laminates? I could just work the bow from the board. Or, instead of cutting the board as it is, I cut it into strips (say, 1/4 inch) and then laminate them (with TB III or similar) back into a "board" blank and then make the bow from this four or five-laminate. how will these two approaches yield different results?
Might want to start a new thread . ;)