Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: RidgeRunner on December 20, 2007, 01:27:17 pm
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My pine resin and charcoal glue never turns out right.
It is always to brittle.
Can someone please post a recipe (with quanties) of ingredients?
As I understand it oil or fat and some type of fiber are parts of the recipe.
I hope to use this to heft some steel arrow points.
Thanks
David
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I'd too like to see some recipes. I would think that different ones are good for different projects.
I have used some with oil, char dust and fiber on points, only to find it did not set hard enough. Too much oil no doubt. As I understnad it oil, or wax is to keep it from beeing too brittle. I've used just resin and and char dust on points too. Brittle and drys very fast, but has not broke yet.
Also, if someone can, please address the use of dung. I undersand that from herbavores the residual fiber will add strength, but what about the other crap. I'm not keen on using it, unless there are real advantages. Even then, I would probably only use herbavore dung, although if carn/omni has advantages, I would like to know about it.
For that matter, what is the benefit of carbon/ash?
Thanks.
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If it's too brittle, put more charcoal powder in it, or add beeswax, fiber, and stuff. I usually just use pitch and powdered charcoal, if you get it mixed right, it works good-just experiment.
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I dont know a recipe but I always use chopped up dried grasses a little charcoal and a small amout of beeswax, just mix it until it looks thick,, it's stong stuff if mixed right.
wvflintknapper
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Drop the charcoal and use beeswax instead. Use just enough to make it a bit flexible. This makes a supper dupper hotmelt glue that is fantastic for hafting both arowheads and knife blades. Better than any other hot melt glues you can find on the shelf in stores!
Check out:
http://www.ginellames.fr/videos/flv_us.php?id=7&lang=us
http://www.ginellames.fr/videos/flv_us.php?id=8&lang=us
http://www.ginellames.fr/videos/flv_us.php?id=9&lang=us
That should just about do it!
David T
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What did he say ??? ???
wvflintknapper
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i use an empty minwax 1\2 pint can.
i fill the can about half way with pine resin
roughly 1- 1.5 tablespoons of wood ashes
roughly 1- 1.5 tablespoons of bear grease that has been thickened with wax (my bear grease is thickened to consistency of crisco vegtable shortening or a creamy peanut butter)
this works very well for me, i use it on trade points and stone points and as long as it is good and hot when i apply it it holds strong.
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What I use is about equal parts pitch, bees wax and charcoal powder or fine saw dust. The charcoal or saw dust adds body and the bees wax makes it less brittle. The thing with herbivore dung is that it is full of fiber. In a dried state it is pretty inert. Dried rabbit or deer pellets are what I have heard to use. Pat
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Cutler's resin by Chuck Burrows, a knifemaker of stout repute:
5 parts pitch
1 part beeswax (tallow can replace this-available from your butcher)
1 part filler (wood dust, ash, metal dust, etc)
I use ground charcoal for the filler. I cook down dirty crusty barky pine pitch in a tin can with holes punched in the bottom and catch the strained drippings in another tin can. Then add beeswax and then the filler, stirring with a clean split stick. I let the mixture cool some and then I dip clean sticks in it (popcicle sized) till they load up with dollops of the resin, sorta like making tallow candles. These can be stored forever, carried on a trip, etc. When you need hot glue, heat everything before the fire, get that glue stick to dripping, and apply to the surfaces as needed. Do all your sinewing later, obviously.
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Thanks for the replies guys.
I have about a half gallon each of pine resin and bees wax.
Going to cook up some glue while I am off work for Chrismas.
Thanks
David
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Can you use the pine sap in any state or does it have to be dry?. I collected some the other day , some of it is dry and crumbly and some of it is still a little moist.
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goopy is better in my limited experience because it has fewer impurities than some dried stuff that usually has bark, insects etc. But it's all good. I end up with about 1/2 to 1/4 the volume I started with after cooking and straining.
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I like to cook the pine pitch so the volatile oils evaporate off and them the pitch hardens as it cools. Pat
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i scrape the white hard as a rock stuff off of old cuts and knots in the tree, i collect the syrupy stuff as ell and the musshy goobed up resin with the bark and bugs.
put it inside of a soup can with holes in the bottom of the can, and that sits inside of a tuna can to collect the now strained resin.
i cook this on a small cookie tin on the barbique or heater in garage, this keeps flare ups from happening.
after i think most of the resin is out of the bark and stuff from the soup can i slowly lift off with pliers.
then i stir it up and add a little beeswax, or beargrease
then i let it cook, not boil.
then i put it on a stick to cool and i check if it is too brittle,or runny.
then i either add hardwood ash,and or wood dust.
salt to taste!
ok, skip the last step.
mbg
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Good deal . I will give it a try. Definetly outside. Don't want to burn the house down :o
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So I know this is an old thread but I need to make more and want a few more Thoughts in this. I do not have access to Beeswax or live where bears are roaming ;D I also If possible would like to make this from as natural and easy to find resources as possible... The ONLY recipe Ive found Is Pitch, charcoal from hardwood, and dried droppings.. (whether from Rabbit or Deer) The question I have Is I just dropped chopped and Split alot of pine and theres pine sap EVERYWHERE .. So in my intelect I gathered all I could scoop from the split logs and put it in jars. Can i use the sao in anyway for Glue?
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IMO, hard brittle pitch makes the best glue. If it is gooy you will have to cook off the terps until it cools hard and brittle. Be very careful cooking pitch because it is very volatile and will combust.
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I'm reading careful here too,
my last batch of pitch was bad. cooked on a woodstove in an earthenware bowl. It was full of bark junk , i kept moving the sticky chunks up the sides to let it drip.
I think I added TOO MUCH charcoal and powered roadapple. When heated my glue sticks are still gritty and don't drip. They're hard and shatter like hard gritty gravel!
tried adding beeswax to the mix and it wouldn't seem to mix in no matter how long i mashed it in.
so...I'm listening....
I liked the idea of the two cans, one with the holes on the bottom. Pine is hard to find around this area where Oaks rule.
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Instead of bees wax or bear fat you can use any animal fat(bacon, etc) and probably vegitable oil but I haven't tried that. The wax or fat makes the brittle pitch less brittle so it doesn't curmble when in use. If your pitch is not hard it will be sticky. The charcoal or plant fiber(dried rabbit or deer poop) or saw dust add body to the pitch glue.
I first heat the pitch then add the wax. Mix it well and slowly add the filler(charcoal, etc) until it becomes a thick paste. Make a glue stick and see how the glue turned out.
You can also boil the pitch in water. As it melts the debris like bark, etc will seperate and float to the top for easy removal. A little fine bark and debris will act as the filer to add body. You just don't want big chunks.
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If folks want i can make a 10 minute video on how I make glue. I could demo what it looks like when you have too much charcoal. Just let me know.
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Iowabow - I think that would be very helpful to me if it's not too much trouble.
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Its a deal so long as everyone understands this is only one way that works very well for me. There are other ways that the glue can be made. The title of the video will be "dirt strong" lol
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Iowabow,
thats definitely a video i'll be waiting to see.
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John, that would be great. I will sticky your video at the top of the page for all to see too.
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I mix it about like Pat said,I drip a little on a piece of paper and let it cool,if it cracks when I bend the paper I add a little more Bees wax or deer tallow,if it is sticky I add a little more hard wood coals [ground up fine] or filler. :) Kind od trial and error in each batch. :)
Pappy
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I see this old post has been reopened.
Was cooking out some pine sap Saturday.
If I had the time I would have shown the " three can " process that I use.
It works well... Takes a bit of time but, once started, will work itself without any help.
Might get a chance to cook some more this coming Saturday.
If I do I will take a few photos and post them here.
David
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three can? I'd like to see that David,
for me, seeing pics of process is always better than words.
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I've heard of a tucan David but never a three can. ;D
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You are crazy PatB.... ;D
I guess that is why you and I get along so well. Bit of a goof ball myself.
Wait until I get a chance to cook out some more pine sap... Will post some pix then.
David
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Isaac and I just made three videos on how to make glue. We demo why it is difficult to get the mix correct. Should have them up in the morning. This was the first time making a video together and it was a lot of fun!
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Here they are with all of the mistakes included. This should really help people.
1-3 http://youtu.be/X5yAGOm3jpo (http://youtu.be/X5yAGOm3jpo)
2-3 http://youtu.be/xU-_fit8o7I (http://youtu.be/xU-_fit8o7I)
3-3 http://youtu.be/00w86pnrCfM (http://youtu.be/00w86pnrCfM)
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the First link is private Iowabow. :)
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yep, couldn't see the first one, the two other videos were very helpful though.
my last batch looked like the consistency of the 2nd video...WAY too much charcoal and ground roadapple.
nice to know I can just add more pitch.
Thanks for sharing!
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John and Isaac, one little tip I have for you will speed up the process of making the glue sticks. If you have a container of cool water you can gather some pitch on the stick, dip it in the water to cool it and dip in the pitch again and so on until you get the size glue glob on the stick. Any of the water that might get into the pitch will soon evaporate.
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Very nice point Pat!! thank you!
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ok sorry for the first link should be fixed
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I just noticed that this post has 4000 views wow i guess people are interested in how we do this.
@Pat B thanks for the cold water idea will include that trick next time. Thank you!
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Hey Pat B did you want to copy this and post it at the front?
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John, I'll start another thread and copy and paste these links there then lock it at the top. It will be for viewing only, no replies. After a while we may put it is the "How To" section. I'll be sure to give you and Isaac credit. ;)
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John, its at the top of the page. "iowabow and Isaac's Pitch Glue Tutoral"
Thanks, John, this will be a big help for lots of folks. 8)
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Well thakns everyone Im glad I restarted this post up, Things are going to be clearer as far as the glue goes I know it!. ;D
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@stalkingfox your welcome and good luck!
@Pat I showed Isaac where you posted it and he said "right there with Pappy!"
Thanks guys you all have made a real difference in his life!