Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Loneviking on December 12, 2013, 11:49:00 pm
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I'm working on my first bow, a Red Oak Molly that I decided to back with rawhide. The build along I'm working from backed the bow with rawhide, and it looked fairly easy. WRONG!
This darn stuff, if it dries out too much it's too stiff to work or cut. If it's wet its hard to get the glue (Titebond 2) to absorb into it, and still tough to trim as even wet I can't get it stretched out enough to figure dimensions. I glued one working limb up and after two days took a look. The rawhide is glued tight---including the sides and pretty much all the way around the belly as well! >:( And after 2 days in a warm house it's still a bit damp and the top of the hide on the back has little ripples on it. The rawhide is glued down tight and flat but it sure did spread out more than I thought it would.
Anyway, I'm betting my belt sander can take it down and shape things up, but any tips for working with this stuff? I have the other working limb to do next and I'm thinking that there's something I'm missing... ???
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Haven't worked with rawhide but I did back a few bows with cotton and linen and you get it wet and just put thin glue on the backing then size the back of the bow then add glue to the back of the bow then just stick the backing on and get something to hold it. After that when it is dry, I have heard it takes a week for rawhide, you take a fine toothed rasp and cut the edge where the back meets the sides and then rip or rasp the rest that is on the belly and sides.
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That's about what I figured I'd have to do, either rasp or the belt sander. It would be nice if I didn't have to take that sort of time, but I guess it goes with the territory. A week? Oh well, I'm not in a huge hurry and I've still got the other working limb to do.
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What are you using for your rawhide? I have used deer rawhide I process myself. When it is dried out it is about like construction paper - easy to cut with scissors. I cut it just a bit wider than the limb and to length. Soak it in some cool water just long enough to get it good and flexible. Lay it flat and spread the glue out on it (I use titebond III) with my finger. Lay it on the bow and position it. Work out any air bubbles and the wrap it lightly with an ace bandage. After a couple of hours I carefully remove the ace and let it finish drying. The next day I trim the edge with a new sharp blade in my utility knife. Maybe hit it with a bit of sandpaper if need it. This method is simple and gives decent results.
There are several how-to's with nice video/pics on several methods of putting on rawhide. You could try a search on here, you-tube, TG, etc. good luck.
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1. Lightly rough up the back of the bow.
2. Rehydrate rawhide in warm. Not hot water.
3. Size the back of the bow with your glue of choice (PVA or hide glue).
4. Once your rawhide is pliable pat it dry with a towel.
5. Place the rawhide on the back of the bow and work out the bubbles.
6. Wrap the rawhide with bicycle inner tubes or and ace bandage. Anything to hold it snug to the back.
Start at the handle.
7. Once dry remove excess with a knife or razor then sand the edges clean.
Then your all done:)
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I've only used the Dean Torges method where you use hide glue, only moisten the hide enough to get it flexible, prime coat the bow with glue, do the same with the hide. apply the hide and work it from grip to tip with a heated veneer hammer and/or a clothes iron set on low to help keep the hide glue warm while ironing out bubbles etc. It may slide and move a little bit but when the glue starts to gel and grab you know immediately. No wrapping involved and once the glue sets and is gelling, the still soft hide can be trimmed off the sides with a sharp knife. The hide hasn't soaked up enough water to shrink much at all so trimming it while still damp is not a problem and if you end up with bubbles or air voids you can pierce and reheat the area with the warm iron to reactivate the hide glue and get it to stick. Neat and simple, goes on like iron on veneer tape. Can't do that with titebond.
I got perfect results the first time I tried this method. I don't have a veneer hammer but I used a 5" long strip of 1/4 in. thick aluminum with rounded edges to burnish it and a clothes iron for heat.
Do a google search for Dean Torges rawhide and it'll be the first thing that pops up.
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I've tried the Dean Torges method but can't get the iron thing to work. I think the one iron I have gets too hot even on low and wrinkles the rawhide before I can smooth out the glue. I would experiment with irons except I think I have a better way now--I just use my finger. I would think that using Titebond would make rawhiding the easiest thing in the world but I use hideglue so you cannot just put the glue on and wrap it.
Yesterday I did another rawhide backing smoothing out with just a finger and it worked great:
You size the bow and the damp rawhide.
Start at the handle end, with a heat gun (set on low), and warm 4" of the rawhide until the the glue softens and the rawhide starts to slide around on the limb.
Dip your bare finger (or finger with one wrap of duct tape) into water and rub the warm rawhide section firmly, smoothing out the glue and aligning the rawhide strip to the limb.
Stop and let it cool long for five minutes. Now the rawhide is held into place and aligned to the limb. The water on the finger keeps the finger cooled, the rawhide pliable, and acts like a lubrication so your finger doesn't grab the rawhide and cause it to slide.
Now do the same for the next 4 or 5 inches. You hold the heat gun in the downstream hand and the damp finger in the other and just move down the limb such that you are moving the heat gun just in time for your finger to come along and smooth things out but not actually heating the finger.
Sometimes I'll quickly put the heat gun down and wet both hands and work an area with thumbs pushing from the limb crown out to the edges.
So far I get no bubbles and no excess glue. There's no tools involved, its simple and quick and just works well.
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A hairdryer is even adequate to warm the rawhide and reactivate the glue using the Torges method. I have also just held the bow close to a woodstove.
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What are you using for your rawhide? I have used deer rawhide I process myself. When it is dried out it is about like construction paper - easy to cut with scissors. I cut it just a bit wider than the limb and to length. Soak it in some cool water just long enough to get it good and flexible. Lay it flat and spread the glue out on it (I use titebond III) with my finger. Lay it on the bow and position it. Work out any air bubbles and the wrap it lightly with an ace bandage. After a couple of hours I carefully remove the ace and let it finish drying. The next day I trim the edge with a new sharp blade in my utility knife. Maybe hit it with a bit of sandpaper if need it. This method is simple and gives decent results.
There are several how-to's with nice video/pics on several methods of putting on rawhide. You could try a search on here, you-tube, TG, etc. good luck.
I'm using beef rawhide, from a dog chew. Toss it into the bathtub overnight and unroll it in the morning. The stuff is thick and tuff.
I did lay it out on the back, wrapped it with an Ace wrap and put a piece of railroad iron on top of it. It's stuck down good, but the hide spread out and covered a lot more of the board than I thought it would. As for trimming it? I'll try the utility knife but this stuff is hard!
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I've only used the Dean Torges method where you use hide glue, only moisten the hide enough to get it flexible, prime coat the bow with glue, do the same with the hide. apply the hide and work it from grip to tip with a heated veneer hammer and/or a clothes iron set on low to help keep the hide glue warm while ironing out bubbles etc. It may slide and move a little bit but when the glue starts to gel and grab you know immediately. No wrapping involved and once the glue sets and is gelling, the still soft hide can be trimmed off the sides with a sharp knife. The hide hasn't soaked up enough water to shrink much at all so trimming it while still damp is not a problem and if you end up with bubbles or air voids you can pierce and reheat the area with the warm iron to reactivate the hide glue and get it to stick. Neat and simple, goes on like iron on veneer tape. Can't do that with titebond.
I got perfect results the first time I tried this method. I don't have a veneer hammer but I used a 5" long strip of 1/4 in. thick aluminum with rounded edges to burnish it and a clothes iron for heat.
Do a google search for Dean Torges rawhide and it'll be the first thing that pops up.
Whoa, slow down a minute. I prime coated the bow with no problem. But in order to get the rawhide to flatten out it had to be wet. I did run both paper towels and cloths down the hide to try to dry it enough to take a prime coat but it didn't seem to take the prime coat to well. The more it dried, the stiffer it got just like it didn't have any glue.
Thanks for the search pointer. I've got another bow after this one I want to try and I might see what the hide glue does.
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I've tried the Dean Torges method but can't get the iron thing to work. I think the one iron I have gets too hot even on low and wrinkles the rawhide before I can smooth out the glue. I would experiment with irons except I think I have a better way now--I just use my finger. I would think that using Titebond would make rawhiding the easiest thing in the world but I use hideglue so you cannot just put the glue on and wrap it.
Yesterday I did another rawhide backing smoothing out with just a finger and it worked great:
You size the bow and the damp rawhide.
Start at the handle end, with a heat gun (set on low), and warm 4" of the rawhide until the the glue softens and the rawhide starts to slide around on the limb.
Dip your bare finger (or finger with one wrap of duct tape) into water and rub the warm rawhide section firmly, smoothing out the glue and aligning the rawhide strip to the limb.
Stop and let it cool long for five minutes. Now the rawhide is held into place and aligned to the limb. The water on the finger keep the finger cooled, the rawhide pliable, and acts like a lubrication so your finger doesn't grab the rawhide and cause it to slide.
Now do the same for the next 4 or 5 inches. You hold the heat gun in the downstream hand and the damp finger in the other and just move down the limb such that you are moving the heat gun just in time for your finger to come along and smooth things out but not actually heating the finger.
Sometimes I'll quickly put the heat gun down and wet both hands and work an area with thumbs pushing from the limb crown out to the edges.
So far I get no bubbles and no excess glue. There's no tools involved, its simple and quick and just works well.
Yeah, you're using strips and that might be a better way to go. The problem I'm having is cutting or trimming this stuff. When wet, it wants to spread out and it's still tough to cut. If it dries to much it's like cutting iron. I'll have to try to go for strips next time and experiment around with your method. Thanks for the tip!
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A hairdryer is even adequate to warm the rawhide and reactivate the glue using the Torges method. I have also just held the bow close to a woodstove.
Man, that little amount of heat? I live where it can get well over 100 degrees in the summer. What happens then when I'm using the bow? The backing falls off?
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I'm going to try the hair dryer next, for sure.
Definately use strips if you can. If you want a couple I"ll send them to you.
When I size the rawhide I dip finger into hot (140-150 degree) glue and quickly rub onto the rawhide, pressing firmly and in circles and it just sinks in and give the impression that it is thoroughly impregnated.
Its all great stuff to work with because, as randman said, it gets pliable soon and can be worked almost immediately to some degree. Its hard as a brick the next day.
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What Bryce said,that's how I do it, very simple. Sometimes I don't even wrap it if the weather is nice and warm,I just keep working it untill glue sets , being sure to work from handle to tip and keep the air bubbles out,I just work them off to the side, sometimes going over it 3 or 4 times as the glue sets, same with snake skins.I use TT3 and it starts to set pretty quick. :)
Pappy
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still not tried but i think it would be useful to mask the belly with adhesive tape to prevent the glue to spread (like you do on surfboards), than you can use any size of rawskin and cut after glue is set
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Pinecone's way X 3.
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Same as Bryce n pappy....only step I add is I actually trace out each limbs profile onto the rawhide, and that way I have very little if any trimming to do...
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This is how I do it.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,32398.msg428391.html#msg428391
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A hairdryer is even adequate to warm the rawhide and reactivate the glue using the Torges method. I have also just held the bow close to a woodstove.
Man, that little amount of heat? I live where it can get well over 100 degrees in the summer. What happens then when I'm using the bow? The backing falls off?
A hairdryer has a hot setting that will burn you if held close enough. Way hotter than any air temperature you will see. Besides we are talking about activating wet glue. Dried glue is far more temperature resistant.
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i also agree with Bryce's method, however i used a twine and wrapped the tight the whole length of the limb, there was a picture in one of the bowyers bibles with this method and it worked well, it allows a lot of air flow, was dry the next day.
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Picture time. Here's the back of the bow with the rawhide:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/loneviking/Bowback.jpg?t=1386955815
And the belly:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/loneviking/Bowbelly.jpg?t=1386955822
And the remaining piece of rawhide for the other limb:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/loneviking/Rawhide.jpg?t=1386955832
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Same as Bryce n pappy....only step I add is I actually trace out each limbs profile onto the rawhide, and that way I have very little if any trimming to do...
Well that's a given mouse breath. ;D
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Same as Bryce n pappy....only step I add is I actually trace out each limbs profile onto the rawhide, and that way I have very little if any trimming to do...
Well that's a given mouse breath. ;D
Not everyone has $&!+ for brains like me,and can't read between the lines :laugh:
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Same as Bryce n pappy....only step I add is I actually trace out each limbs profile onto the rawhide, and that way I have very little if any trimming to do...
Well that's a given mouse breath. ;D
Not everyone has $&!+ for brains like me,and can't read between the lines :laugh:
Lmao! ;D
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So, after about an hour of working with a belt sander, fine tooth backsaw for cutting, screwdriver for prying I finally have all of the excess off and a nice back on one side!
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/loneviking/bowafter.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/loneviking/media/bowafter.jpg.html)
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Part of your problem is the rawhide you're using all wrinkled and warped like that from being all bent and twisted in the dog chew. You are fighting the warp and ripples the whole time. What I have found to prevent that is to soak the rawhide till it's good and flexible then stretch it and staple it to a flat piece of plywood. Get it as flat and tight as possible, pulling out all the wrinkles. Just like if you were preparing the hide fresh off the animal. Let it dry till hard. If there are still small ripples you can repeat the process (much easier the second time). Once it is dry and flat, you won't be wrestling the ripples as you are trying to put it on the bow. And like Blackhawk said, trace and trim it close to the final size and you won't have so much to deal with
And to your comment about the glue not sticking to the hide, Loneviking, if you are still using tightbond, it's not going to have the same affinity for the hide that hide glue will. Hide glue and the hide are basically the same material so they will stick much better to each other whereas trying to coat wet/damp hide with tightbond, you are thinning the tightbond with the moisture in the hide. Maybe the guys who use it can give us an idea how to deal with that.
Lots of great tips on here I'll be using in the future. Just shows ya there's many ways to skin a cat - or a bow in this case - sorry Del ;-)
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And worse yet, I think your rawhide is about 10 times thicker than you need. That stuff is like bullhide. The backing rawhide is usually deer or antelope. It's about as thick as construction paper or the stock you print business cards on.
There is about 6 bows worth of rawhide on every deer. Most places will hit you for $20 plus plenty of shipping and handling, so a deer hide is worth the effort to scrape into rawhide.
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Like JW said. I just posted this in blue-gills build-along, and will share here too:
I can't imagine using the dog-chew toys as rawhide. I am sure it can work, but it sounds like a lot of work to thin it. Since price seems to be the thing keeping people away from the "good stuff" I thought it might be a good idea to have a sale on rawhide backing strips to encourage the chew toy backers to give the deer hide a try. I am offering deer rawhide backing strips for $15/pair. (regular price is $23.50). The rawhide sale is on the homepage of my website EchoArchery.com I wont put a direct link as I only periodically run advertisements in Primitive Archer Magazine, and I do not have an active add right now. I think this is within the rules, but if I am mistaken, feel free to delete this post admins.
If you have questions about my rawhide please do not clutter up blue-gills how-to with replies of that nature. Feel free to PM me.
I hope this post is not too off-putting. I just want to encourage folks to give deer rawhide a try over the chew toy hide. :)
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Part of your problem is the rawhide you're using all wrinkled and warped like that from being all bent and twisted in the dog chew. You are fighting the warp and ripples the whole time. What I have found to prevent that is to soak the rawhide till it's good and flexible then stretch it and staple it to a flat piece of plywood. Get it as flat and tight as possible, pulling out all the wrinkles. Just like if you were preparing the hide fresh off the animal. Let it dry till hard. If there are still small ripples you can repeat the process (much easier the second time). Once it is dry and flat, you won't be wrestling the ripples as you are trying to put it on the bow. And like Blackhawk said, trace and trim it close to the final size and you won't have so much to deal with
And to your comment about the glue not sticking to the hide, Loneviking, if you are still using tightbond, it's not going to have the same affinity for the hide that hide glue will. Hide glue and the hide are basically the same material so they will stick much better to each other whereas trying to coat wet/damp hide with tightbond, you are thinning the tightbond with the moisture in the hide. Maybe the guys who use it can give us an idea how to deal with that.
Lots of great tips on here I'll be using in the future. Just shows ya there's many ways to skin a cat - or a bow in this case - sorry Del ;-)
Del, I took your advice (and a couple of others above) and staked the rawhide to a wood slab. I also put a heavy foot long section of RR track on it. What I found interesting was as I kept checking on the hide this afternoon there was a point where it was just dry enough to slice and trim easily with a knife. Too wet and it's a spongy mess, too dry and you have to use a saw or a sander. It's something I don't think you can put into words, you have to play around and experience it.
Anyway, after trimming it the hide was still staying flat from the squashing of the heavy RR track. I rinsed it just a bit too get any dirt off, blotted it good with a clean rag and then put the Titebond 2 on, which dried nicely this time instead of running off the hide. Put the hide on the limb, wrapped it and put the weight on it. I'll check it in a couple of days and then it's time to start tillering in earnest. You sure do learn a lot when you actually start trying to do something!
Bill
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Like JW said. I just posted this in blue-gills build-along, and will share here too:
I can't imagine using the dog-chew toys as rawhide. I am sure it can work, but it sounds like a lot of work to thin it. Since price seems to be the thing keeping people away from the "good stuff" I thought it might be a good idea to have a sale on rawhide backing strips to encourage the chew toy backers to give the deer hide a try. I am offering deer rawhide backing strips for $15/pair. (regular price is $23.50). The rawhide sale is on the homepage of my website EchoArchery.com I wont put a direct link as I only periodically run advertisements in Primitive Archer Magazine, and I do not have an active add right now. I think this is within the rules, but if I am mistaken, feel free to delete this post admins.
If you have questions about my rawhide please do not clutter up blue-gills how-to with replies of that nature. Feel free to PM me.
I hope this post is not too off-putting. I just want to encourage folks to give deer rawhide a try over the chew toy hide. :)
Thank you for the generous offer and I'll take you up on that. I want to make a smaller, lighter pull weight Molly out of another board I have. One question I have though is why do I want to trim the dog chewie rawhide? The rawhide is there to protect you in case the board explodes on you while tillering. Why wouldn't I want a thick piece to protect me? I can always sand it down thin when it comes time to finish it.
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Thank you for the generous offer and I'll take you up on that. I want to make a smaller, lighter pull weight Molly out of another board I have. One question I have though is why do I want to trim the dog chewie rawhide? The rawhide is there to protect you in case the board explodes on you while tillering. Why wouldn't I want a thick piece to protect me? I can always sand it down thin when it comes time to finish it.
I would say that its really not there to protect you from it breaking, its there to protect the bow from breaking.
By laminating such a thick, protective piece on the working part of the limb you are, in affect, laminating on something that will affect the tiller and effectiveness of the limb. If you were adding something like wood or sinew that would enhance performance then that's fine as long as you realize its going to add draw weight to the bow. You can therefore retiller at that point and decrease draw weight if you need to, with the end result that you have an efficient limb, because the laminated material is efficient for the function.
But I'm guessing rawhide is not one of those materials. You are dumbing down your limb with a mass of inefficient material. You are thickening and inhibiting the limb from moving as quick. You'll add draw weight, but after you retiller you'll have less working wood and more nonworking rawhide as your working limb.
So you want the rawhide to not affect the function of the limb, but yet still protect the wood fibers from lifting. So you want it as thin as possible.
At the price that CMB is offering I would buy as much of it as possible because that's a super deal and I know its not about the money for him but about his contribution to cause.
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Well put Steve. If I didn't have so much rawhide I would be jumping in Carson's deal as well.
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As somebody just starting to make bows, this is what confuses me:
Steve B.:
By laminating such a thick, protective piece on the working part of the limb you are, in affect, laminating on something that will affect the tiller and effectiveness of the limb.
Bluegill 68:
Although the rawhide does shrink a bit while curing it does not add appreciable poundage to the draw weight or change tiller. Bottom line it is not a cure for shortcomings in tiller or asking too much out of a piece of wood.
(From the thread Rawhide Along)
So who's right? I dunno, but I can tell you that the backed limb seems to be moving just as good as it did before.
Steve B.:
You'll add draw weight, but after you retiller you'll have less working wood and more nonworking rawhide as your working limb.
So you want the rawhide to not affect the function of the limb, but yet still protect the wood fibers from lifting. So you want it as thin as possible.
But Steve, why does less wood and more hide make a difference? If it's glued down well, and the bow tillers out to the desired poundage, the arrow isn't going to care if it's thrown out there by wood or rawhide. A horn backed bow (as an example) has the horn helping to throw the arrow, so I can't see that there's going to be any detriment.
I'm not saying you're wrong Steve, I'm just trying to grasp the underlying concepts of working with this stuff and figure out why there are such widely varying opinions on what the effects are on using it.
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The thick rawhide adds weight to the limbs. Slowing them down. And can result in poor cast. Rawhide does not add draw weight like sinew does on a horn bow.
Thinner rawhide weighs less and you get the same amount of protection against splinters.
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The thick rawhide adds weight to the limbs. Slowing them down. And can result in poor cast. Rawhide does not add draw weight like sinew does on a horn bow.
Thinner rawhide weighs less and you get the same amount of protection against splinters.
OK, makes sense that rawhide would add weight although being a board bow (and thick) it's probably not much in relation to the total weight of the limb. I was going to sand it down flat after tillering to glue Stingray skins on it. Any benefit to sanding it down before tillering? That and 'how thin' is what's puzzling me!
Bill
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Really only 2 reasons to use rawhide as a backing as far as I can see...
1. You simply like the looks of it or you want a canvas to "decorate" your limbs.
2. You want to help protect the back from splinters (perhaps a ring was violated or back has some minor run off or something).
Therefore, a nice thin strip of rawhide is all you need. Deer works well (fawns or young deer best IMO). As Bryce said, this will protect the back from splinters and at the same time add very little physical weight to the bow limb. Too much weight on the limb will slow it down. A thick piece of rawhide from a dogbone will need a lot of sanding!
Good luck
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Steve b. Turned my onto goat rawhide, now that's some good stuff. Almost transparent. Kangaroo rawhide is awesome too.
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Del, I took your advice (and a couple of others above) and staked the rawhide to a wood slab.
Actually, I'm Randman...only put Del's name on there to counter my reference to skinning a cat ;)
And yes 90% of the dog chews out there are too thick (adds too much unnecessary mass) in my opinion...too much work to thin after processing flat.....I only grab them when I see one that has very thin edges.....and they are not less expensive...at $14 for 2 of them big enough to use (my last purchase) and MAYBE you'll get 2 usable strips out of them, Carson's offer is very affordable and generous.....I'll be contacting you soon there Carson....
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Loneviking,
The arrow doesn't care what throws it, you are right, but it will be thrown alot faster by a bow made of material that when bent, straightens back up very quickly.
It will straighten back up quicklly if it has those strong but elastic properties but also if it as light as possible. Some woods have those inherent properties more so than others so when we want the most efficient bows we chose woods that will bend, not break, not set, and straighten up as fast as possible with the least amount of material for the draw weight that we want.
So if you take a perfectly good shooting bow and laminate on a strip of rubber on the back, in order to protect yourself when it explodes, or to keep it from exploding, you are adding material that is very elastic but also very heavy. So you'll slow your limbs down from straightening back up. Rubber doesn't want to straighten back up very quickly. If you glued on a strip of carbon fiber to hold your bow together then you would notice it would straighten back up quickly, but it would also be harder to pull back where as the same amount of rubber would affect the draw weight less. So the carbon fiber is helping your arrow and the rubber is hurting it.
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Here's a bow that I backed the other day. Still needs cleaned up. You can see how thin the rawhide is in this pic.
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I love rawhide. It fits perfect with my philosophy of what primitive should be, and my other philosophy that comes from how cheap I am. I could back every bow that I'll ever make with only rawhide and be happy. I might change my handle from Steve B. to Rawhide. :P
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For some of the people less experienced, they may be confusing weight and weight. They are spelled the same, pronounced the same, but are radically different.
Rawhide adds weight (mass) to a limb, but sinew will add weight (draw weight) to a limb.
Meanwhile, we will wait (oh how I live a pun) to see how your bow turns out.