Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: WillS on November 18, 2013, 06:54:38 am
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It blew up, didn't it.
Finally got the bloody thing to brace height after hours of arsing about with strings, and the nock split, forcing the string 10 inches down the limb, separating sapwood and heartwood all the way down.
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That sucks so bad! It was looking beautiful! I'm sorry, I know that pain all too well, I hate that.
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Sorry to hear that, guess we've all been there.
Del
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Well it's currently being glued... We'll see what happens.
I find it's always worth listing the positives when something goes wrong (a good half hour after screaming into a pillow of course...)
The bow was 83.5 inches long, so plenty of length to chop off and try again if I need to
The split didn't actually break off anywhere, it started exactly halfway between back and belly, and runs diagonally towards the sapwood but doesn't exit, so there's no trauma of the sapwood apart from right at the nock.
I'm hoping that if I glue it up (I've basically filled the crack with Resintite and clamped shut) then chop off the nock slot (at both ends) before fitting the horn nocks, and then binding tightly with FastFlight or linen and soaking with superglue, everything should be ok. The tips are fairly stiff anyway, so hopefully there won't be too much stress there, and the Resintite is (according to Del's success anyway!) perfectly capable of handling bend forces.
Worst case scenario - I chop a chunk off both ends and make a smaller bow (The crack can go through into the horn nock without any problems so I don't lose too much anyway)
Onwards and upwards!
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That's a great attitude!
Good luck and keep us posted.
"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same"
I think that certainly applies to bowmaking.
Do you like Kipling?
Can't say I've ever Kippled!
Del
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I like Kipling Del.....particularly the Manor House cake ;D..........(sorry, I'll get me coat) :-[
John
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Update for those interested (in watching a 130lb bow blow up, no doubt! Car crash TV!)
I've glued the crack as best as possible (resintite glue wedged in as far as possible, and runny superglue along the crack once the resin glue had dried fully)
I've also chopped the tips down to where the string nocks were, and fitted cow horn nocks. I went true traditional and used side-nocks, as this is supposed to be a Mary Rose replica! The last time I used side nocks they split fairly quickly, but that was with Buffalo horn and not cow horn - hopefully these will last a bit longer!
Anyway, here's some fruity side nock pics, and you should be able to see where the crack runs. I'm hoping beyond hope that the compound structure of wood, epoxy and horn will keep the crack solid at the tip, and the glue will stop it opening lower down, but we'll see what happens... gulp!
If it was easy... everybody would do it, right?
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0650_zpsa45a0ddc.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/IMAG0650_zpsa45a0ddc.jpg.html)
Here you can see the crack running down right in the middle of the sapwood
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0654_zpse8944189.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/IMAG0654_zpse8944189.jpg.html)
And here the crack running down the back of the bow is visible. I'm not too worried about the longitudinal crack, it's the other one that will have me wearing an extra pair of underwear when it goes back on the tiller...
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0655_zps3dfe4787.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/IMAG0655_zps3dfe4787.jpg.html)
I'm so tempted to polish, sand and oil the bow at this stage and hang it on the wall. It's gorgeous at the moment, easily the nicest looking bow I've ever made. I hate the thought that if I try and finish tillering it the bow will break on me. :(
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Very pretty character in that horn. I would be scared too though with the repair. Just because of the repair, I would think it would be a good idea to tiller and exercise the crap out of it, as if it's gonna blow then, it would of blown eventually. (Although that is easy for me to say, especially not having paid for the stave or made the bow, if I was in your shoes in actuality, I don't know what I would do, especially with the high price of yew.) Whether it goes or not, it sure looks damn nice, ;D.
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Cheers dude. I had to scrap the nocks after all, as for some reason they just didn't work. Copied the MR nocks to the millimeter and the loops kept slipping round to the back. I recut the nocks to normal ones for tillering but they're so mangled now I'll have to pull them off and start again.
As for the bow itself, it's taken 160# on the tiller now with no movement or noise from the repair so that looks good.
Only one small issue remains...Still can't brace it! No matter what I try, the string stretches every single time. It's on the wall as a "no clue what to do, cant even finish it!" display piece. Ridiculous waste but there we go. Maybe I'll drag it along to a EWBS shoot and see if somebody like Joe can shed some light on it. I've never been beaten like this before!
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I have had that happen before and just glued the split back together without any problems. As for the string stretch, just use 14 or 16 strands of FF and you should be ok
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I am using 16 strands of FF... haha!
Del's suggested to me that I go for Dyna Flight, so I'm gonna make one more 16 strand FF string, and if it doesn't work I'll buy some Dyna.
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Cheers dude. I had to scrap the nocks after all, as for some reason they just didn't work. Copied the MR nocks to the millimeter and the loops kept slipping round to the back. I recut the nocks to normal ones for tillering but they're so mangled now I'll have to pull them off and start again.
As for the bow itself, it's taken 160# on the tiller now with no movement or noise from the repair so that looks good.
Only one small issue remains...Still can't brace it! No matter what I try, the string stretches every single time. It's on the wall as a "no clue what to do, cant even finish it!" display piece. Ridiculous waste but there we go. Maybe I'll drag it along to a EWBS shoot and see if somebody like Joe can shed some light on it. I've never been beaten like this before!
I thought fast flight and dyna flight were the same hmpe stuff? Shoot, if dyna flight is better and cheaper, than I might move to that than. FF is pretty expensive really. Have you tried an endless loop string with little to no twist? It makes a big difference for me, when comparing a flemish, although when both are broke in it ain't too big of a difference I think. I totally feel the pain of unexplainable string problems though, I have had a bunch of those! :) Do you have a tiller tree? I use my stringer on my tiller tree on bows that are too long for me to brace, I got a notch like at 36" or so for the stringer to slide in, and then I will brace the bow as quick as I can and undo the stringer. It is definitely nerve racking though, I am always thinking the tiller is gonna split and send the string up at my neck or some other chaos is gonna happen, etc. One time I was stringing a heavy bow like that (had to have all my weight on the string), and the string slipped off the nock and my jaw came smack down on the edge of a 2 x 4 that is part of the support of my wooden tiller tree I used to use. That sucks about the nocks, they were looking nice. I have never tried side nocks before, but yours looked quite nice. I guess though, the more you build, the more you learn, so the only thing you can do is keep building.
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I am using 16 strands of FF... haha!
Del's suggested to me that I go for Dyna Flight, so I'm gonna make one more 16 strand FF string, and if it doesn't work I'll buy some Dyna.
Well that is odd. I've used a 12 strand FF on a 150# bow without any problems and without any stretch.
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I am using 16 strands of FF... haha!
Del's suggested to me that I go for Dyna Flight, so I'm gonna make one more 16 strand FF string, and if it doesn't work I'll buy some Dyna.
Well that is odd. I've used a 12 strand FF on a 150# bow without any problems and without any stretch.
I've used a 16 strand on a 140# too, no stretch problems at all, it is good stuff really. Are you using a hitch knot? If so, maybe it is slipping?
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It's weird when people describe problems that you've had yourself.
I guess we all learn the same way, advise and trial and error.
Newton said 'we see far because we stand on the shoulders of giants'
Ive 'stood' on Marc's and Dels shoulders a few times but nothing beats trial and error with a thick skull like mine!
One tip I can give is when making a heavy bow, make the string first (overlong) and use it as your long string and then adjust to short string and tiller with it. That way it gets fully pre-stretched before final adjustment.
As for side nocks, I use bowyers knots on both ends. It can be a bit tricky un -stringing it but once some of the wax has worn off the knot, it gets easier if you twist it out. I'm of the opinion that side nocks and bowyers knots were made for each other. To use a loop in a side nock or a bowyers knot in an all round nock don't work all that well!
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Thanks for the replies guys! All very interesting.
So far, I've tried only Flemish twist, with very few twists. In fact my last attempt had no twists at all.
I tiller with a pulley system, and I draw the bow on the tiller to around 6-8" then string it with the short string, and when I release the tension the short string just stretches out until the bow is flat again. I've even tried taking the bow up to around 12" on the long string and doing the same, and always the string (16 strand FastFlight Plus) stretches out. The string is well stretched before I use it (I always use my strings as tillering long strings before shortening and using as short strings)
I'm convinced I'm either doing something fundamentally wrong either with the string making (never had an issue before though) or the particular batch of FF is crap. Doesn't sound likely though!
As for the sidenocks, Simon Stanley is a big fan of double bowyers knots on super heavy bows with side nocks, so perhaps that's the way to go. Not sure. Steve Stratton has been experimenting with the theory that the sidenocks were removable, and were always kept tied to the string, and the bow would be strung by slipping the nocks onto the bow each time. I know Dave Pim made a stunningly gorgeous Italian yew warbow with removable side nocks. I'll have to play around with them I guess.
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I only use endless loop with heavy bows and FF as I found that the material is too slippery for a timber hitch
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That's interesting, thanks. I've yet to try an endless loop as it requires a long jig (I think?) and I always make up my strings in the hand, as it's dead simple to do a Flemish that way. I've got enough of the FF+ left to try though, so perhaps that's the best way forward before buying more material.
Del has been incredibly generous and offered to send me a string, which is most appreciated but my autodidactic nature needs to at least attempt a few!
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That's interesting, thanks. I've yet to try an endless loop as it requires a long jig (I think?) and I always make up my strings in the hand, as it's dead simple to do a Flemish that way. I've got enough of the FF+ left to try though, so perhaps that's the best way forward before buying more material.
Del has been incredibly generous and offered to send me a string, which is most appreciated but my autodidactic nature needs to at least attempt a few!
There is an awesome guy on youtube called the backyard bowyer, he makes pvc bows, but he has a lot of tutorial videos on there. One of them is a tutorial for an endless loop string jig, I made one and it cost me like 20 dollars, and was real easy to make. I also made a serving jig from a video he has, and it works better than my 20 dollar one, and cost like a dollar to make. He's like an archery macgyver.
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I actually watched that earlier, it was pretty well explained and laid out. Looks like a whoooooole lot of faffing about though, when compared to a double laid-in Flemish. Don't need any sort of jigs for Flemish...
I dunno, this is pretty odd. Plenty of bowyers and archers I know and shoot with use double loop Flemish for warbows, so I can't see why that's the issue here.
Bear in mind that the bow isn't finished being tillered. I can't finish it, because I can't brace it! So I have no idea how heavy the bow REALLY is. All I know is that it's about 115# when it's drawn to 8" or so on the long string. It's highly unlikely, and conversations with Del have made it pretty clear, but I guess there might be a chance the bow is way too heavy yet. I just can't tell because I've never taken the bow off the short string.
One thing that's really weird is that whatever string material you use must eventually stop stretching? But I'm using a really, really old and well stretched string and I keep shortening it to get the bow to brace, and of course it stretches. When I take the bow off the tiller, the string is in both loops, but hanging slack. So I shorten it again, and the same thing happens. This has been going on for months now, as I can only really do any tillering at weekends. I just thought that eventually the string would stop stretching, but it seems to have infinite stretch!
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It's obviously not stretching but slipping someplace, if you have loops then your loops are slipping
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Yep you must be right!
Well I've made one more double loop Flemish, keeping everything as tight as possible, so I'll see how that goes and if there's no improvement I'll move onto endless loop.
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They say a proper glue joint is stronger than the original wood. Si I wouldnt sweat the split. I would wear a helmet though...
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What I have found with the bowyers knots on both ends, is the lower limb one does not slip because it is pushed tight against the nock and is then left alone but the upper limb knot tends to slip and needs regular adjustment. This is because it is constantly tightened and loosened when stringing the bow. I have found that you can lessen this effect by keeping the wrap loops of the knot close together and use five of them, they end up looking like a hangmans noose. This makes the knot easier to loosen when de-stringing because by twisting the knot, this bulky part lifts out of the side nock slot and you can then pull the loop down the limb, opening it up!
I have a theory that perhaps a bowyers knot may not have been used on the upper limb, even though they had side nocks.
Perhaps they used a system that is a self tightening loop instead of self tightening knot (bowyers knot) or a fixed loop.
In one of the Bowyers Bibles it shows a string with a very small loop ( probably formed as you would with an endless string) and then the string is passed through it. I think native Americans may have used it!
This in effect is a self tightening loop and gives the advantages of both loops and bowyers knots!
The small loop which is bulkier sits on the outside of the side nock the same as with bowyers knots. The advantage of this type of loop is it is easier to get on and off (like a fixed loop), it wont slip ( like a bowers knot) and it is self tightening (which is needed to spread the strain of a heavy bow string all around the horn nock)
I shall make one and try it out soon and pass on the results
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That would be good, always worth trying stuff out I guess.
I just asked Michael Heinz what he uses as he's made plenty of heavy warbows, and he says he uses FF+ 16 strands for bows up to 120# with two Flemish laid in loops, so there shouldn't be any problem with that. I must be making the strings wrong for them to slip constantly the way they seem to be doing.
It probably needs somebody used to using Flemish loops on warbows to see what I'm doing and tell me what's going wrong, but until I can find somebody I'll have to try endless loops I suppose.
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Sounds like you're twisting something the wrong way. Can you post a pic?
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Yep, here ya go!
As far as I'm aware, nothing's twisting itself undone. I've made Flemish strings the same way for years, and never had a problem before. It's something to do with the weight I guess. Something I'm doing is fine for low poundage bows, but can't hold up to the heavier stuff?! No idea!
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0657_zpsedd75cb2.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/IMAG0657_zpsedd75cb2.jpg.html)
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You really need one good long non stretch string and one of these.
It will save you sooooo much grief.
It's the Del the Cat Adjust-a-string available at a workshop near you.
Del
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If you box it up, and draw a bow on the front I'll give you fifty quid for it!
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As a follow-on, how do you guys work out the correct length for an endless loop string? Is it the exact distance of the bow nock-to-nock, then you twist to accommodate for the initial stretch, or do you make it shorter than the n-t-n length?
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As a follow-on, how do you guys work out the correct length for an endless loop string? Is it the exact distance of the bow nock-to-nock, then you twist to accommodate for the initial stretch, or do you make it shorter than the n-t-n length?
That's the beauty of the little toggle, by winding the string through it, you get about 1/2" changes in length, some twisting will give you fine adjustment to get your perfect brace height. Then you put the adjusted string onto your string making jig, adjust the jig until it's snug, take off the string and make a perfectly sized string!
Ooooh it sounds so good, the price has just gone up to £75.
Seriously, if there were more bowyers, I'd be tempted to make a batch and flog 'em on Fleabay, tenner a go! But anyone who can make a bow can make one of them... if they have a pillar drill and some scrap Ali' bar.
Del
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Will, you always make strings shorter than the ntn length. If you make a string the nock to nock length exactly, it will be zero brace height. I think I have been told on here ff strings are usually 2 to 2 1/2" less than the nock to nock length. Although, when I make my endless loop strings, I make them an extra 1/4" longer than needed, so that I can add a bit of twist into them to come back to brace height. I also use a string stretcher I made out of 2 x 4s and a ratchet clamp thing, and a digital scale, to serve the nocks together and to stretch the string before putting it on the bow, the extra tension makes the last serving parts a lot easier. It helps get the exact length right too, I stretch it at 150 lb or so before putting on the bow, and there is a lot less settling in to go through then.
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Gotcha. I'm gonna give it a go and hope for the best! Can't thank you all enough for the help (and patience, as this is probably pretty damn simple and I'm overthinking everything as I usually do!)
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Gotcha. I'm gonna give it a go and hope for the best! Can't thank you all enough for the help (and patience, as this is probably pretty damn simple and I'm overthinking everything as I usually do!)
I totally know how you feel though, I run into so many problems that seem simple, but for some reason something just won't work, it isn't even funny. Right now I am trying to get a good quality cut on my bandsaw so I can actually do anything, as I have become pretty bandsaw dependent anymore, and for the life of me I have not been able to get my current blade resawing decent. Still have no idea why, but I am figuring I might be feeling well enough today to give it a thousandth try, if my basement ain't too cold. :)
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Yup, it seems to be the way it goes! I've got a billion beautiful billets (alliteration!) of yew waiting for me to splice, and I still can't work out how to splice them neatly by hand, as I don't have a bandsaw! Something else to worry about when the time comes :P
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just clamp them together, use a hacksaw(yes, it takes forever, but gives an amazingly clean cut) or sharp handsaw to cut out the splice. Or just clamp into a vice after drawing out the pattern.
and then cut on the lines. It isn't that hard.
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just clamp them together, use a hacksaw(yes, it takes forever, but gives an amazingly clean cut) or sharp handsaw to cut out the splice. Or just clamp into a vice after drawing out the pattern.
and then cut on the lines. It isn't that hard.
I've heard a japanese pull saw is good for these as well. Even on the splices I do on my bandsaw, I still have to take a good bit sanding and filing to get a good mating anyway. When I splice cores or bellies, I will cut the cores/bellies long enough to where I overlap them and tape them together, then draw out my splice cut, and cut them together taped over one and other in one cut. It still doesn't even come close to a perfect match, and I will need to cut off the tip of the one piece, or use a razor blade to cut into the other to fit the pointed end of the other.
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just clamp them together, use a hacksaw(yes, it takes forever, but gives an amazingly clean cut) or sharp handsaw to cut out the splice. Or just clamp into a vice after drawing out the pattern.
and then cut on the lines. It isn't that hard.
It's not that easy if you're trying to hand cut a billet which you can't rough out square though. It's yew, so I can't square up the sapwood, and its going to be a working splice in the centre of a full compass bow. If it was the handle of a non-bending centre, or was going to be backed it wouldn't be a problem...
Vices won't hold onto a curved piece of wood.
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Square up the belly side. I'm not sure why you think a vice won't hold a curved piece of wood. You can always rasp a flat on the sides you want the vice to grip.
A working splice seems like an iffy thing though.
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I'd be seriously tempted to strengthen the back of a splice on a warbow, by rasping a shallow flat over the splice for about 8-10" over the splice (fading from nothing to about 1/8- 3/16" deep) and overlaying a 3/16" slat of clean sapwood to take the back tension. Even with a bit of a bulge at the grip a bow still flexes.
The Yew stick bow I just made was left very fat at the grip, but as I tillered it with the bark on, I could see it starting to crack off dead centre. So even a 'non bending handle' probably flexes a tad.
Del
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Square up the belly side. I'm not sure why you think a vice won't hold a curved piece of wood. You can always rasp a flat on the sides you want the vice to grip.
A working splice seems like an iffy thing though.
Well I don't actually have a vice... I just have an old workmate bench which won't grip at all.
As for the working splice, I would have been inclined to agree with you and Del and reinforce it, but since I've seen a 160# spliced yew bow with a full compass tiller and plenty of movement in the middle I don't think it's necessary. I also dislike handles on yew bows, so would want the splice area as clean and tidy as possible.
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Right. Horn nocks Mark II are on, and look much safer. String is sorted - made a new Flemish twist with much tighter twists and everything's holding beautifully. I need help from the experts on this tiller however. The reflexed limb is still throwing my eye off, as I just don't have enough experience to know how it's gonna look at full draw.
Here's the bow pulled to 18" and it's sitting at 90lbs, so I've got enough to play with. Both images are the same, the bottom is flipped.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/bow_zpscd1a210f.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/bow_zpscd1a210f.jpg.html)
The target weight is somewhere between 115 and 120, and with it being 90#@18 the projected draw weight should be somewhere around 140 or 150 so there's room to adjust the tiller.
To my eyes, the right limb (top pic) is stiff, but it has that awkward slope into recurve at the end and has a bit of reflex along the whole limb so I don't want to remove too much wood just to match the other one, only to find it weak at full draw.
Is the other limb looking ok? If it is the right limb that needs weakening, do I want to remove along the whole limb, or is there a part that isn't bending properly, because I can't see it if there is! Part of me wants to remove wood in the outer 3rd of the right limb (top pic) but that's exactly where the recurve is greatest, and that seems too obvious...
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Nice to see you are still working on this bow! Now I know it is obvious I ain't no expert, :), but I always tiller a bow to look like I think a bow should look when tillering, regardless of reflexed or deflexed limbs. Sometimes this can lead to a bow with an excellent tiller to the eye at fulldraw, but you will tell that one limb is stronger than the other (more than typical), despite the perfect looking tiller. But when that is the case, I just adjust the arrow pass to be in the spot where the bow is even and balanced when drawing, that is how I take care of that one anyway. As for the pictures, I think it looks good to me, I would honestly bring the stiffer limb around a bit with some scrapes to match the weaker one though. But that is me. Be sure to catch hinges early on, pull the bow and see how it is working, etc. If you keep pulling, does it start to bend in one spot more than the other?, etc. Looking good though, can't wait to see it finished up!
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Cheers mate! I ain't giving up on this one. It's been really unpleasant from start to finish haha! I've never wanted to just chuck a bow away and leave it in the corner so badly. I'll get that right limb moving a bit more then.
Any particular area you'd work on personally? I'm thinking just past the handle area and into the last 3rd.
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I would get just the outer limb of the stiff limb, the right one in the first picture bending just a bit more to match the other limb.
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Presumably the right limb in the top pic is the one with the reflex?
If so I would't weaken it any more, as both tips are coming back a similar distance. And if it started with reflex then it's actually pulling back further than the other thus it is actually weaker!
I'd say you are safe to pull it a bit further, it's gotta come back to 120# some time. I'd say now is prob as good a time as any, or if you are nervy take it to 100-110# it will show what's happening a bit better*.
Slow and steady, I think you are 80% if not 90% there now.
Del
*(Make sure no one is standing behind you with a paper bag ;))
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Cheers Del. It's been to 120# and beyond quite a few times now, as I had to get it up to almost 140# to get the string on it at one point!
To be honest the tiller looks pretty similar all the way down to 140# and I'm just not happy with the way it looks. It doesn't look even and circular at all to my eyes. I know there should be signs of the raw stave in the final curve but at the moment it just looks damn ugly!
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Looks reasonable to me ... the 'stiffer' looking limb just has a hint of reflex at the tip. Maybe you need to start tapeing the outer thirds more, to get that spitfire wing profile and get 'em coming round a bit more.
I think you are only looking at subtleties of tiller now. don't go mad. When in doubt leave it be, play with MS paint etc...
Play with moving it slightly on the tiller etc.
Del
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Thanks mate. That's helpful. I tried overlaying circles but it just made it look worse. I'll get the tips moving as you're both suggesting and we'll see where we are!
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Thanks mate. That's helpful. I tried overlaying circles but it just made it look worse. I'll get the tips moving as you're both suggesting and we'll see where we are!
Just a bit more off all over will get it moving more. If you take a couple of mm off the thickness all along the belly that is automatically thinning the tips more, as it's a greatr proportion of the thickness at the tips. Just keep taking it off evenly and re-checking the tiller.
Having said that, pics taken at full weitght will show more bend.
Del
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Actually to my eyes it's the left limb, top pic, that needs work just outside of center.
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Well that's just awkward...!
Right, so I'll get the tips moving a bit more, take some off the non-reflexed limb just outside of center (around the two dark spots that are actually knots I'm assuming Marc?) and bring it a bit further. I'll post some pics of that progress!
Cheers guys, appreciate the help!
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When in doubt leave it be
The best tillering advice anyone has ever given anyone... ever. :) I can use this advice maybe 7 or 8 times every time I tiller a bow, ;D.
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Ok so it's done, pretty much. It's been right up to 30" with full brace height and just needs some tweaking. Still over weight at around 135#. Trouble is, I'm super disappointed at the amount of set it took in the last stages. It was looking really straight and had almost no set until about 25" draw length and suddenly took on around 2" of string follow, all in the last part of the non-reflexed limb. It hasn't even been shot in yet!
I wonder if starting out with one limb heavily reflexed put undue stress on the straight limb? The reflexed limb would have been resisting movement while the straight limb was doing most of the work?
It also has the ugliest brace shape I've ever seen on a bow which doesn't make me feel much better! Bit of a failure all round in my opinion, but then we are our harshest critics...
I'll post some pics if I can bring myself to look at it again later...!
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You could probably at least fix the braced profile look of it. The bow might be unbalanced, or it might be balanced, but just not look it due to one limb being reflexed and one limb not being reflexed. You might need to weaken the reflexed limb a bit still, I would guess if the deflexed limb is taking more set or bending more. Like I said, in a situation like this I will tiller the bow to look and bend like we think a bow should look and bend, and then if it doesn't draw balanced from the typical arrow pass location (I do 1/2" above center), I just adjust the arrow pass location until it draws smooth and balanced in the hand. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's just how I have come to deal with this. I think the fact that you repaired this bow and have it pulling 135# is a dam feat and that alone I think should make this a major success!
EDIT: And with one of my personal bows (not one I am going to give away) if a bow has 2" set and still shoots good, I am still happy. You might be able to heat treat it out too, but I have no experience there to give any advice.
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Here's a quick pic of the unbraced shape (the top nock exploded on me AGAIN so I have to order more horn and have a third attempt - crazy!) so I can't brace it, but you can see where the string follow is starting to show on the left (upper) limb.
If I brace the bow, and then immediately unbrace it, the left limb takes about 2 full inches of set before settling back to this, which is just under 1 inch. It's pretty frustrating, I have to admit. I could live with a bow that takes around 2" of set after being fully shot in at 32" because that's about normal for a heavy bow but to take that much just literally from bracing? Horrible.
The right limb is now a full 5mm thinner than the left and is still so stiff that the brace shape is completely off. If I take any more off the right limb it's going to look really daft.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0668_1_zps9a93cbdf.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/IMAG0668_1_zps9a93cbdf.jpg.html)
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OK now this is a dilemma I have encounted with an Elm bow recently and I'm not sure what the answer is!
The Elm stave had 3 undulations over its length. I start off like most people by roughing out both limbs to the same thickness.
Now when the stave is bent it is constanly checked to see if it is bending evenly and small amounts are taken off where it is stiff in order to ensure the wood is stressed evenly. That's easy when it's a straight piece to begin with, but how can you determine what may be a stiff area when the arc is uneven because of the undulations!
If you find one limb is becoming a lot thinner in an area compared to the corresponding area of the other limb, then the stresses are becoming uneven, even though the tiller 'looks' better.
Would it be fair to say, if the stave has undulations, the undulations should still be present even at full draw and be very wary of trying to tiller them out?
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Well if you assess the the situation, I haven't seen the tillered profile of this bow, but given that you say the right limb is making the braced profile off from being stiffer than the left, I would guess it is stronger still (despite whatever the stave looked like to begin with) and I would guess that the tiller is off as well when being drawn. You wanna go easy on the bow for the most part when you don't got everything doing what it is supposed to. It's not the stiff limbs fault it is making the profile (or tiller) off, you need to weaken it to even out the tiller if it's too strong, and don't go drawing the bow out real far until you got a tiller you are happy with. I'm sorry the nocks broke again, this bow is really making you work for it! I mean this is just my guess at what is going on, I don't know what the tiller looks like, but it sounds to me like you need to weaker a stronger limb. if you get too frustrated with it, sometimes it is better to just let it be for a while, I usually am more prone to making mistakes when I am frustrated or in a hurry.
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OK now this is a dilemma I have encounted with an Elm bow recently and I'm not sure what the answer is!
The Elm stave had 3 undulations over its length. I start off like most people by roughing out both limbs to the same thickness.
Now when the stave is bent it is constanly checked to see if it is bending evenly and small amounts are taken off where it is stiff in order to ensure the wood is stressed evenly. That's easy when it's a straight piece to begin with, but how can you determine what may be a stiff area when the arc is uneven because of the undulations!
If you find one limb is becoming a lot thinner in an area compared to the corresponding area of the other limb, then the stresses are becoming uneven, even though the tiller 'looks' better.
Would it be fair to say, if the stave has undulations, the undulations should still be present even at full draw and be very wary of trying to tiller them out?
Now to me, none of this pans out. It is all fine to say / assume / theorize that the wood cells are stressing more than others if the tiller looks good, and character bows need to be tillered according to their every bend and hump, but in reality if you take a stave with a bunch of deflexes and reflexes in the stave, and get the stave working evenly to where all the reflexes and deflexes bend the same amount, the bow is gonna take lots of set in the deflexed areas no matter what you do. You have to leave the deflexed areas stiff. And if any of the deflexed areas are near the outer limb, you are gonna have a stacking unpleasant to shoot bow. The deflexed areas are like built in set, they are already bent persay, they don't need too much more bending usually in the tiller.
I start off like most people by roughing out both limbs to the same thickness.
When you rough out a stave with reflexes and deflexes before floor tiller, it is smart to leave the deflexed areas thicker, as they will be the weakest link in the tiller, and most likely and damaging to hinge, darn near impossible to fix if hinged, if the deflex is real pronounced like on snakey staves.
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Well if you assess the the situation, I haven't seen the tillered profile of this bow, but given that you say the right limb is making the braced profile off from being stiffer than the left, I would guess it is stronger still (despite whatever the stave looked like to begin with) and I would guess that the tiller is off as well when being drawn. You wanna go easy on the bow for the most part when you don't got everything doing what it is supposed to. It's not the stiff limbs fault it is making the profile (or tiller) off, you need to weaken it to even out the tiller if it's too strong, and don't go drawing the bow out real far until you got a tiller you are happy with. I'm sorry the nocks broke again, this bow is really making you work for it! I mean this is just my guess at what is going on, I don't know what the tiller looks like, but it sounds to me like you need to weaker a stronger limb. if you get too frustrated with it, sometimes it is better to just let it be for a while, I usually am more prone to making mistakes when I am frustrated or in a hurry.
The trouble is, while common sense (and even the most basic bow making experience) says "stiff limb must become thinner to even out" how far do you let it go?
When I look at this bow now, unbraced, there is a real obvious difference in thickness from upper limb to lower limb. It's nasty to look at, and almost looks like two different bows butted together in the handle the difference is so obvious. It's really going against all logic and common sense now. I guess what must be happening is I'm missing something fundamental and assuming that all the problems are in the stiffer limb so I'm constantly thinning that limb, and the problem isn't being sorted. I'm ending up with one limb a nice even taper and a good thickness for the draw weight, and another limb that looks like it belongs on a 50lb target bow wedged up against it! When it's braced, it looks like one limb (the one that started with reflex) is still too stiff, but simple common sense tells me that it can't be that anymore.
Somebody with a whole lot more experience than I have in making warbows has kindly offered to help out, and I'm not gonna touch this horrible thing until I know what I'm doing. It's super annoying though, because this was the first stave I paid a lot of money for as a "premium" warbow stave (yeah, I know...!) and there is literally nothing wrong with it - no dips, no knots, no cracks nothing and would clearly have been able to make a really top quality warbow. And yet with my inexperience and rushing I've almost certainly wasted a really nice piece of yew which is a travesty! I'll be lucky to get something over 100# once the tiller has been sorted out and that's a real shame. Hopefully I'll learn from this...
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The trouble is, while common sense (and even the most basic bow making experience) says "stiff limb must become thinner to even out" how far do you let it go?
As far as the tiller indicates you need to. I can tell you are frustrated with this bow, which anyone would be, especially with the money and time put in. You seem to be thinking about limb thickness too much, the tiller is what matters and determines what thickness the limbs are. Nothing but the tiller at full draw, and actual working tiller when the bow is drawn matters. If the bow looks good at fulldraw, than the braced profile will look fine too, that is my experience. That's the only thing you should be worrying about with this bow or any bow. The tiller is what makes a bow a bow. It sounds to me like your right limb is still too strong, although I can't tell say for sure of course without seeing the tiller. Either way, thank you for sharing this bow. I hope you get it sorted out.
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Cheers! Massively appreciate ALL the help and comments, it will get finished and it will be a learning curve and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just frustrating but that's what happens! If it was easy everyone would do it ;)
Hopefully some other people can learn from my mistakes on here too.
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Regarding the horn nock... maybe the groove was too close to the lower edge of the nock? Horn has grain like wood and can split if there isn't enough material there?
Just a guess as there is no pic.
As for the rest of it, I wouldn't worry too much about how it looks at brace. I've had Robert Hardy tell me one of my bows was upside down, just because I had a naturally deflexed limb as the lower.
Short of sticking strain gauges along each limb and wiring 'em all to a chart recorder, it's down to eye and feel.
Don't be too hard on yourself.
Yesterday at the club 'Taxi Dave' came up to me with 'Dogleg' one of the Yew bows seen on the TV... it had just exploded on him! It was always a tad experimental, and had a belly patch so we weren't too surprized (he needed clean underwear tho' ;) ). It was made in April last year.
I'll lend him the 100# Elm warbow to see how he gets on with that. Much better making bows for mates than customers who live miles away and don't appreciate the vaguaries of wood.
Del
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Don't be too hard on yourself.
+ 1! I think when we put our heart and sole into something, and it doesn't come out absolutely perfect, it can be devastating, for me it is usually, especially with bows and all the time and work that goes into just one. Sometimes a bow will not turn out like I had expected, or something will be wrong or quirky with it, so I will throw it in some corner of my house somewhere where I don't have to look at it. It will just eat at me if I think about it, so I won't. Sometimes I will remember it after a couple months, go look at it, and realize it is a really nice bow, and I won't even notice whatever was irking me about it, :).
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The issue with a re-flexed or deflexed section of a limb is something I have little experience with, so I'm keen to found out what the 'old hands' think.
OK. if you have a section of deflex in a limb, it is already bent in the direction that the rest of the stave is heading. but with no stress imparted to it.
If you then tiller according to an even looking bend, this section ends up being un touched while the rest of the stave gets reduced to catch up.
Logic tells you, this part is less stressed than the rest and isn't the idea to share the stresses evenly? With a straight stave this is gauged by looking at the bend for evenness and we all seem to focus on the beautiful 'look' of an even looking full draw, but beauty is not the primary goal, especially when dealing with heavy bows that are pushing the stave to it's limits!
I've got 2 Elm staves ready to go with these issues and I hope to get 130-140lbs out of them, so I'm keen to learn from Wills experiences.
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I'm keen to learn from Wills experiences.
Me too ;)
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@ Meanewood... (sorry to hijack the thread, but it's sort of relevant)
If you are working with Elm, it will need heat treating. I'd use the heat treating as an oportunity to equalise the bend in the limbs at the same time. Kill two birds with one stone and make the tillering easier.
The 100# Elm warbow I did recently had issues like that with a nasty kink in one limb.
I corrected it to a degree to even up the limbs and it helped immensely.
If you look at it in this post, it's horrid... follow along the subsequent posts and you can see it finally ends up looking ok.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/busy-weekend.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/busy-weekend.html)
Del
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Thanks Del
Yes, I have already heat treated one, so I could give it a second session while having the dips clamped to a straight block!
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You know you can heat-treat Yew. Just do the lower density/weaker limb and leave the other alone. I've done that to Elm and Yew before.
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Yeah I've heat treated every yew bow I've ever made so far. I was really hoping to avoid it with this one, as the stave was so clean and straight when I started! I don't think it's necessary just yet with this one, but I'm certainly no stranger to standing for 4 days straight holding a heat gun...
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She's getting there folks, she's getting there! I've been given the most amazing help from Ian a very talented bowyer and member of the EWBS. He's been picking up on stuff I had literally no idea about and it's shown me just how much I have yet to learn - especially when it comes to separating the tiller technique of warbows and normal weight bows.
This bow is not there yet, there still needs to be a lot more tip movement to really get the true Mary Rose shape, but at least it's looking more like a bow now! I'm only posting this unfinished tiller pic as a reference point, and hopefully it's interesting to a few of you. It's also a fair bit over weight still, but as TMK said, the very fact that it's taking this much weight on a broken/repaired limb is a bit of a miracle, and certainly not down to any skill - more a "suck it and see" type thing.
It's taken probably 2" of set now, fairly evenly spread - either a sign of too long on the long string, or due to the fact that my tiller setup is outside, and with the weather we're getting here in the south of England "humidity" is an understatement...
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0686_zpse31f74ee.jpg)
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It looks pretty circular to me. The extreme tips will never move.
Looking good.
If you have the tiller rig up the other way with the bow supported on a fixed block, you can have a rule to measure ditance more readilly.
I'm counting bricks to work out the draw on that pic.
Really please to hear you are making progress. Tillering a warbow is indeed a shift from a target weight bow.
Hope it gets there.
Del
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Thanks Del.
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Very nice. The only thing I would do with that bow is get the outer limb to work a bit more, on the right
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Thanks very much Marc! Yep, that's the limb with the reflex, it's slowly starting to behave itself but still needs some more work. I appreciate the help!
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Now you've got a bow! I was thinking the same as Mark.
This thread has been enjoyable to read and has helped motivate me to get moving on one of my own. I'm just starting to tiller a heavy-weight from what I believe was white elm? Can't remember, will have to ask adb, as I got it a while back from a trade with him. Up until now the heaviest bow I've made has been around 90 lbs, but I'm hoping for 110 or higher on this one. It's roughed out at 80" long, and just a little more flexible than a cast iron frying pan. It was close to pipe straight when I roughed it out almost a year ago, but has taken on a few wobbles since. I think before proceeding I may give it a gentle heat treating and clamp it down to a 2x4 in the process to take out some of the curves. Wish me luck :) I'll maybe start a build along once things get moving.
Yours is looking very good though, I hope she holds out for you!
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Miracle my ***,only some skillful and meticulous wood removal can make a chuck of wood do that! That look's beautiful Will! You deserve a damn beer! ;D Very nice, I think it looks like a gorgeous bend. Although I do agree with Marc about the right limb, just a tiny bit of scrapping and checking, working it in, checking, scrapping, checking, etc. Little by little is the best way, don't go to fast or get frustrated, that is the way to screw up. Looking damn fine.
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Now you've got a bow! I was thinking the same as Mark.
This thread has been enjoyable to read and has helped motivate me to get moving on one of my own. I'm just starting to tiller a heavy-weight from what I believe was white elm? Can't remember, will have to ask adb, as I got it a while back from a trade with him. Up until now the heaviest bow I've made has been around 90 lbs, but I'm hoping for 110 or higher on this one. It's roughed out at 80" long, and just a little more flexible than a cast iron frying pan. It was close to pipe straight when I roughed it out almost a year ago, but has taken on a few wobbles since. I think before proceeding I may give it a gentle heat treating and clamp it down to a 2x4 in the process to take out some of the curves. Wish me luck :) I'll maybe start a build along once things get moving.
Yours is looking very good though, I hope she holds out for you!
Thanks! I wish you all the best with yours! Stick a thread up - there's nothing like getting advice from numerous pairs of experienced eyes. This thread alone has taught me more from one bow than I've learned from all the others I've made. Can't thank everybody enough for all the input and help, it's been amazing.
Miracle my ***,only some skillful and meticulous wood removal can make a chuck of wood do that! That look's beautiful Will! You deserve a damn beer! ;D Very nice, I think it looks like a gorgeous bend. Although I do agree with Marc about the right limb, just a tiny bit of scrapping and checking, working it in, checking, scrapping, checking, etc. Little by little is the best way, don't go to fast or get frustrated, that is the way to screw up. Looking damn fine.
Haha! Cheers dude. This bow has been literally the most unpleasant thing I've ever worked on - I've never been so frustrated in my life I don't think. But I guess we've all been there - bows seem to have a tendency to go that way. Still, I'm KINDA looking forward to that relief when this thing hits 32" and doesn't go bang. Thanks for all your help mate.
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They're not all easy Will! Sometimes a bow will fight you the whole way. I've had a few. That being said, your bow is coming, but the outer third of the right limb needs to bend more.
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Thanks Adam!
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Haha! Cheers dude. This bow has been literally the most unpleasant thing I've ever worked on - I've never been so frustrated in my life I don't think. But I guess we've all been there - bows seem to have a tendency to go that way. Still, I'm KINDA looking forward to that relief when this thing hits 32" and doesn't go bang. Thanks for all your help mate.
Yes, do get the right limb to come around before you hit 32". Just little by little, and exercise it a lot to work the limb in after removing material.
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Hmmm.
All the following is just my opinion... feel free to throw tins of tuna at me :laugh:.
All well and good saying the right tip looks stiff, but if it started out with reflex then it's already bending as much as the other tip.
Its tricky to measure the deflection at a point.
Maybe tape a bit of arrow shaft or some such to the limbs at 10" from the tip, extending right out to the tip* (mark on the shaft where the tip reaches).
Measure the gap between shaft and tip at unstrung, braced and drawn.
That way you'll see which limb tip is actually flexing most.
Or maybe tape a bit of stiff card at the 10" point extending along the far edge of the limb (against the wall), you could draw the tip curve on it.
This also illustrates why it's better to have your tiller rig with the bow fixed, you can chalk the bow curve onto the wall and see how it looks, at various deflections.
*Tape it down solid at the 10" point only so that is the reference. Might be easier to tape it to the side of the bow, maybe flatten the shaft so it sits down tight and solid at that point.
The test may show nothing or be too inconsistent, difficult to measure, but it would be interesting to see.
Alternatively stick strain gauges every 3" and wire it all up to an umpteen channel chart recorder ::)
Failing that, weaken the right tip until it breaks, then go back a bit >:D
Del
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And there was me thinking that I overthought bow making...!
I think it could move a little more, as I know the unbraced shape fairly well at this point and it's moving a lot more than it was, but the stiff looking section is still a tad longer than it needs to be. It starts out (unbraced) with a gentle slope into reflex, then kicks about 5" from the tip into almost recurve territory on a mini scale. I'm under no illusions that the very tip isn't going to do a whole lot more bending but I'm gonna get a bit more of that limb going still.
I think (hope) that just bringing the final profile taper down to the right shape at the tip will coerce that last third into doing what it should be doing. This has been really interesting regarding actually seeing how a limb is bending, versus just blindly plugging away to get the "perfect" tiller - something that always used to result in my bows coming in too light!
I like the idea of using something to physically measure how much each tip is bending though, so perhaps the card method will work.
Thanks Del. I may resort to the last option as well.
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Dilemma time. This bow is way too heavy for me at the moment - no idea what it's full draw weight is as I'm not there yet but it's clearly above my comfort zone. It's also the only bow I have that's suitable for the upcoming warbow meet in March so... Do I risk taking it down quite a bit in weight, or leave it the way it is (once it's finished) as a nice heavy bow to eventually work up to? It doesn't look like I'll be on top of it within the next month or so.
I've no interest in buying a bow, as I got into this hobby purely on the basis that I would be making everything myself, so if I decide to reduce the weight, will taking wood off all over affect the tiller much and land me back at square one, or is it safe provided I keep everything even?
I've never been in a situation where a bow I've made was too heavy...!
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Neither!
You find out what thebow's weight is first!
You also need to have some idea of what your maximum comfortable draw length is. The "everyone can draw 32" idea and all bows shall be weighed at 32" draw is madness... the most I can get with any vague aim is about 31". If yoy build a bow for 32" draw but only shoot it at 30" it is carrying extra mass won't perform to it's full potential.
What do you draw at the moment? That will give you some idea of what is acheivable.
Some exercises every day and pracitce will soon get you up in draw weight.
I shot 36 3D targets yesterday with a47# bow and I was tiring at the end of it, yet, with some practice and exercise I can ramp up to 100#.
STEP AWAY FROM THE BOW :laugh:
Del
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I'm quite comfortable at 32" - all of my arrows are cut to 32" and I draw to the shoulder every time. I'm more or less on top of 100 - 115# but I can't get this bow past 12"! So far it's shown me that it's around 100 at 20" which is of course far too heavy if my target weight is 120.
Trouble is, until I'm happy with the tiller where it is (between 14" and 20") I'm not gonna be drawing it to 32" just to find the final weight! It's taken quite enough set already ;)
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100# at 20" asuming a 6" brace gives 100/14 which is 7# per inch which would give 7x(32-6) at 32" which is 182#
I think you really need to be working with a scale!
So yes, you'd better take a mm off the whole belly and re-weigh it!
Del
(I thought you'd just bought a scale... or was that someone else? I dunno... wha'eva' ;) )
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Oh I've got a scale. It's a very accurate scale and if I was to pull the bow to 32" I'd know exactly where I stood, but I'm not happy enough with the tiller to do that yet.
I was basically wondering whether it's worth reducing the weight now (if I was to reduce the weight at all) or wait until the tiller is perfect and the bow is finished, then mess about with reducing the draw weight, at the risk of unbalancing the tiller again. Or something like that!
I guess basically my options are:
1) Treat this bow as my only bow, and reduce the weight to the point where I can shoot it now, at the risk of unbalancing the tiller and possibly end up with an overstressed bow that doesn't perform well
2) Leave it as it is and work myself into it (provided it's not a ridiculous weight at the moment)
3) Leave it, and build another one sharpish for March so I can attend the shoot but don't need to fiddle with what is almost a finished bow.
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Key point with making any bow, is you really should start with a target weight in mind otherwise you end up in exactly the bind you are in now.
Judging from your previous post, I'd say 130# was a sensible weight, maybe if you are really bullish about your strength and fitness 150#, any more than that is (IMO) daft.
So I'd say go for option 1. But do it like this.
Decide on your target weight, pull the bow to that (obviously stopping before there if it looks off kilter) note the draw length and then take wood off slow and steady checking regularly and maintaining tiller as you work it back.
There is no other sensible way to do it.
Option 2. Doesn't work because the figures suggest it's a silly weight.
Option 3. Achieves nothing and trying to build a bow 'sharpish' is a recipe for disaster.
IMO, You are better off maximising your learning experience on this one.... OMG that sounds like management speak :o
Del
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Bowyer Management 101. I'd go!
I think you're right - each bow is a different learning curve, so I guess getting the most out of each one is the right way to go.
130# is still way too heavy for me currently, 120# was my original goal as that would be hard work enough but still achievable within the year, I figured. To be honest, this bow got to the stage where anything over 100# seemed like a bonus but it's quite nice knowing that I'm well into the green with draw weight. It's now just about finding a safe, risk-free (or at least, minimum risk) way of bringing the weight down.
I think I need to finally accept that this bow won't be the magnificent screamer I was hoping it would be - the set it's taken due to my hesitation and slow tillering, plus the mistakes I made dealing with the reflex limb have prevented it from ever being a high performance monster, so I need to just crack on and get "a bow" out of it!!
Cheers for the push in the right direction!
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I don't like to moan and complain usually, but I'm fairly certain this piece of wood has decided not to be a bow. I probably should have listened when it broke the first time...
While I was sanding the belly to get it clean and ready for finishing, this happened.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG0693_zpsed4febdd.jpg)
Superglue time I think....
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La la la la la.
Sorry can't hear I have my paws over my ears and my eyes shut ;D ::)
Del
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Hahaha! This bow... I swear... So much fun.
;D
:o
:(
:'(
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I've seen that before. Superglue will do it
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That just sucks... plane & simple. Sucks. I think you're right... some wood just doesn't want to be a bow.
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It's not gonna win. I'll have full draw pics up by the end of the week. I've superglued it down and I'm pretending it didn't happen.
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It's not gonna win. I'll have full draw pics up by the end of the week. I've superglued it down and I'm pretending it didn't happen.
10/10 for determination Will, but as one who's managed to break two bows at full draw in less than two weeks :o :-[ (one a very nice 110# maple/ipe/ipe warbow and the other a 70# self-hickory hideousity), I'd thoroughly recommend a hard-hat, safety glasses and a cricketer's bollock-guard, prior to venturing any further ;)
Wishing you all the best and yours sincerely (still picking out the splinters),
John T. :)
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Yeah, that sucks. What exactly happened? A splinter just popped up while you were sanding? That's crazy! You must of been an evil man in a past life!
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Yup, I was going over the belly with 80grit to get the scraper marks out and turned the bow around and there it was! It's 4" long and deep enough to give me the jitters but I've come so far with this bloody thing that if I give up now just because of a stupid little splinter I'll regret it forever.
You're right, there must be some bad karma floatin' around...
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Stay calm and tiller on. ;)
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Yup, I was going over the belly with 80grit to get the scraper marks out and turned the bow around and there it was! It's 4" long and deep enough to give me the jitters but I've come so far with this bloody thing that if I give up now just because of a stupid little splinter I'll regret it forever.
You're right, there must be some bad karma floatin' around...
That's insane.
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What's insane is that it's broken or developed a fault three times now (two belly splinters and one serious delamination) and it's still going! It's held together by superglue and crossed fingers now. It'll probably shoot like a damp sponge...
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What's insane is that it's broken or developed a fault three times now (two belly splinters and one serious delamination) and it's still going! It's held together by superglue and crossed fingers now. It'll probably shoot like a damp sponge...
Reading thus makes me wince......safety glasses, check! Site helmet, check, nut-guard, check! .....looking forward to your full-draw pics/vid Will :o
John T.
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Cheers John. Bit more work to do yet, still need more movement in the outer third of each limb as the middle is moving too much at the moment.
It has been down to 28" at 110lbs with no problems though, which is a good sign. Doesn't look like it'll be ready and comfortable for Marks shoot unfortunately so I'll have to skip Donington!
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Sheesh...
What a Krazy Read Through!
I got the Pop Corn going.
Sitting here on the couch with my Hard Hat, Safety Glasses and Codpiece on...
Awaiting the Full Draw Shot.
Good Luck!
-gus
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Tch. Look at you all, unbelievers.
Have faith! ;)
Thanks Gus! At least it's been an interesting thread, regardless of the outcome!
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This was about as entertaining a thread as I've read in a long time!
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Hi all
I promised to do some testing with top knots/loops regarding use with side nocks, see page 2 of this post ( I can't quote it?)
What I suggested was to form a small loop and pass the string through it to form a self tightening loop.
This turned out to be too hard to loosen, so next I formed the small loop using a simple overhand knot on the bite and then passed the string through the loop.
This worked perfectly because the bulk of the overhand knot lifts and loosens the loop out of the slot easily when rotated, just like the bowyers knot does.
Unlike the bowyers knot, this will never slip and you won't have to adjust it!
I'm using this on the upper nock and the bowyers knot on the lower nock.
Give it a try!
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That sounds very interesting. Have you got any pics of your knots and the loop?
You need to try it with removable sidenocks now. That's the real crux ;)
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Hi Will
I'll take some pics and post them!
One thing I forgot to mention is how easy it is to get this loop/knot to tighten fully up to the nock. With a heavy bow it was always hard to get the bowyers knot to fully pull tight against the nock so I would file the belly side of the slot to a more acute angle.
The sole surviving nock from the 'Mary Rose' only angles down slightly and this knot slides up easily to suit that shape!
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Removable side nocks?
It rings a bell, but I can't see why they would be loose!
If they had been loose wouldn't they just fall off and get lost?
Plus if the 'Mary Rose' bow nocks were not glued on, then they probably would have separated from the bows when submerged and the telltale marks on the tips would not be apparent?
What do other guys think about this?
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It was kinda a joke.
There's basically an old theory doggin' around that the horn nocks were removable, and some guys have made replica MR bows with removable sidenocks. The theory was that the strings were kept attached to the nocks and all coiled up together. When the bows were braced, the nocks were just slipped over the ends. It works in theory - many of the MR bows have identical enough tips for it to work, with even the grooves made by the string in exactly the same place.
It gets harder in practice though - to get the bow bent enough to brace without a stringer at MR weights (150+) is pretty much impossible, and you need the nocks in place to use a stringer....
Just a thought, is all. Have a look at some of Dave Pim's exceptional Italian yew warbows with completely loose, removable sidenocks. I don't think anybody else out there at the moment can match Dave's finesse with replicated MR nocks.
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Just a thought, is all. Have a look at some of Dave Pim's exceptional Italian yew warbows with completely loose, removable sidenocks. I don't think anybody else out there at the moment can match Dave's finesse with replicated MR nocks.
I'd love to check out those bows, you don't have a link do you? I can't seem to find anything using google.
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They're mainly on the EWBS forum, but I know Dave posted a couple of pics of his 110# Italian yew bow with removable nocks somewhere. I'll try and find it.
Here's a pic of his removable nock
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll219/Davepim/IMGP0920.jpg)
And the bow it came from here
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,39839.msg531846.html#msg531846
Sorry I can't find more info/pics. If you become a member of the EWBS you'll have access to the best bows ever made on the forum!
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Hi Will
I'll take some pics and post them!
One thing I forgot to mention is how easy it is to get this loop/knot to tighten fully up to the nock. With a heavy bow it was always hard to get the bowyers knot to fully pull tight against the nock so I would file the belly side of the slot to a more acute angle.
The sole surviving nock from the 'Mary Rose' only angles down slightly and this knot slides up easily to suit that shape!
OK, tried some pics but the camera is not good enough to pick up the details.
I'll try to explain it better and anyone with a side nock and a length of cord can try it out!
The idea is to create a small loop at one end of the cord ( about the same circumference as a pencil)
You can do this with an overhand knot on the bite ( which means fold the cord back on itself and tie the knot into both strands)
It can be hard to get the loop formed small enough but if you adjust it before pulling tight, its easier.
Then you thread the other end of the cord through the loop which creates the sliding loop you put around the nock!
I've also tried a running bowline which works just as well. Which raises the question, why would it be called a Bowline if not for use on a bow!
These knots are easy to tie, just google a knot site and view the simple steps.
I guarantee if you try one of these knots out on your bow with side nocks, you will find it easier to string and unstring and no more slipping of the top bowyers knot.
Still use a bowyers knot on the lower limb to enable adjustment
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Thank you Will! Indeed he does make a very nice bow!
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OK, tried some pics but the camera is not good enough to pick up the details.
I'll try to explain it better and anyone with a side nock and a length of cord can try it out!
The idea is to create a small loop at one end of the cord ( about the same circumference as a pencil)
You can do this with an overhand knot on the bite ( which means fold the cord back on itself and tie the knot into both strands)
It can be hard to get the loop formed small enough but if you adjust it before pulling tight, its easier.
Then you thread the other end of the cord through the loop which creates the sliding loop you put around the nock!
I've also tried a running bowline which works just as well. Which raises the question, why would it be called a Bowline if not for use on a bow!
These knots are easy to tie, just google a knot site and view the simple steps.
I guarantee if you try one of these knots out on your bow with side nocks, you will find it easier to string and unstring and no more slipping of the top bowyers knot.
Still use a bowyers knot on the lower limb to enable adjustment
I really like this explanation, and will be trying it out on a bow I'm just starting (ash, 110#) so thanks for putting the research and experimentation in!
As for the "bowline" - as far as I'm aware (and it's been a long time since I sailed properly!) it was originally used to attach a mainsail via sheet to the bow of a ship/boat. That basically means the front or leading corner of the mainsail (or mizzen, I suppose) is tied (the ropes are called sheets) to the very front (or bow) of the boat, and this resulted in the knot that was used being called the bowline. That's bow pronounced baaaoooowwww as compared to our bows, pronounced bohhhhhhhw. Technical terms there.
Interesting snippet fact - according to Wikipedia one of the earliest bowlines found was on the Solar Ship of Pharoah Khufu. Khufu was the modest fella that had the Great Pyramid built for him at Giza and the Solar Ship was the wooden royal barge that was built for the pharaohs when they died that would carry them across the river into the afterlife. They found a Solar Ship buried beside the Great Pyramid and it was like the world's first Ikea Flatpack - every single plank and piece of wood was separate, all laid in a great neat pile and everything would have been connected with small ropes and dowels following a strict set of instructions. If you ever get a chance to go to Egypt and have a look it's well worth it. Quite a stunning achievement.
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Such a knot wouldn't work with a linen string, the string would break at the knot
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What about a normal Flemish laid-in loop, as you would make any other bowstring, then pass the end of the bowstring through that loop, thus creating a slipping knot without any actual "knots"?
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Hi Guys
My linen string has not broken yet and the knot shows no sign of stress so far!
I think this set up spreads the strain over all parts of the string as it passes around the nock just like the bowyers knot does
A laid in loop would require a wide nock slot and the knot is required to lift the tight loop out of the slot when rotating!
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Such a knot wouldn't work with a linen string, the string would break at the knot
I know I won't ever do a hitch knot on a linen string anymore, at least not on a heavier bow, it always wears the fibers down and breaks.