Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Del the cat on October 18, 2013, 04:44:09 am
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I'm using Angel Majesty string, but I guess it's pretty much the same as mast of the decent modern Fast Flite type strings. I was thinking prob' 12 or 14?
My Elm Warbow is near finished
Any advice... if you're nice to me I'll post some pics later :laugh:
Del
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14 is overkill, but safe. I use 14 strands of FF for 120# so you should be fine.
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Ta, just trying to get a feel for it. Can't remember what I used on the 90# I built... spose I could check on t'blog ;D
I've just posted a full draw pic of the Elm bow at full draw on the blog, it's just about made the 100#, looks pretty good.
Del
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I often use 18 strands of D97 FF. I know... it's waaaay overbuilt, but I find it much more comfy on my fingers while shooting to use a bigger string.
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Look forward to checking out your elm bow Del. I always use at least 18 strands ff for 100#, I hate little strings, double serving or not.
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Good point, the fingers do take a heck of a strain, and I know my knuckles will feel it.
I don't think I'll be shooting it much as it's prob' at the top of my capabilities... just feel a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do ;D
And I gotta have a 32" draw bow in my rack...
Del
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You're all crazy with your rope strings :P
Just lay a few more strands under the serving until it feels comfortable. 18 strand strings will rob your cast like crazy!
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It's the weight of the string and it's ability to resist stretch, not the number of strands, that will effect cast. I've tested this. I found ZERO difference in cast going from a 14 strand to an 18 strand FF string, all else being equal.
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Well....Pffft. I reckon Canadian ff is different to English...
::)
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E=MC^2
Physics dictates the number of strings has an effect. It may be small enough not to notice but is definitely a factor. ;)
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E=MC^2
Physics dictates the number of strings has an effect. It may be small enough not to notice but is definitely a factor. ;)
Sure enough. But, the amount of mass difference is negligible.
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You're all crazy with your rope strings :P
Just lay a few more strands under the serving until it feels comfortable. 18 strand strings will rob your cast like crazy!
In my (humble) opinion, I don't think 18 strands is by any means a rope. Brownell themselves recommend 18 - 20 strands for a general string (not a warbow string) for fast flight plus. But I don't flight shoot or anything...
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You're all crazy with your rope strings :P
Just lay a few more strands under the serving until it feels comfortable. 18 strand strings will rob your cast like crazy!
In my (humble) opinion, I don't think 18 strands is by any means a rope. Brownell themselves recommend 18 - 20 strands for a general string (not a warbow string) for fast flight plus. But I don't flight shoot or anything...
We dun want no 'humble' we wanna fight >:D
Del ;)
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I dunno then. I do know that the EWBS guys use 14 as a "general rule" and that's right up to 150# bows. As far as I'm concerned, the thinner the string the more performance (logically) but I've never tested the theory. Either way, I wouldn't go above 12 for 100# unless you're doing it for comfort over safety.
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Nuffin' to do wiv bows or strings... but I jus' made a Blackberry and Pear pie with whats prob' the last pickin' of blackberries...
Yum yum... can't type... eatin'..... yum
Del
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But how many strands of Cinnamon did you use?
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But how many strands of Cinnamon did you use?
;D
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You're all crazy with your rope strings :P
Just lay a few more strands under the serving until it feels comfortable. 18 strand strings will rob your cast like crazy!
In my (humble) opinion, I don't think 18 strands is by any means a rope. Brownell themselves recommend 18 - 20 strands for a general string (not a warbow string) for fast flight plus. But I don't flight shoot or anything...
Um, lemme see. The company that SELLS the string tells you to use lotsa string. Hmm.
Kinda reminds me of the cell companies that sell you minutes on their phones but then have a 31 step phone tree that you gotta go thru and eleven-teen long-winded verbal instructions before you can retrieve a 9 second long voicemail. Hmmm.
Not sure how the rule of thumb holds up when you get to the big bows, but 4x the draw weight in tensile strength is what I have read. For example, a 50 lb draw bow would need a 200 lb tensile strength bowstring.
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The FF formula I use is 1/2 the poundage times 10 = the strength needed for the string.
Assuming that your FF is 50lb test per stand, then 100lbs divided by 2 = 50lbs ... multiplied by 10 = 500lbs ... divided by 50lb per strand = 10 strands.
I just started using FF this year and I love it.
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So it is true, there are only three types of people. Those that are good at numbers and those that ain't!
Jackcrafty? Can you just go 5 times the poundage of the bow? ;D
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I believe the breaking strength of FF is 90# per strand. I haven't tested that myself, but I'm sure I read that somewhere. So... you could probably get away with a 6 strand string, but I doubt your fingers would be very happy shooting it with a 100# warbow. I bet your bow wouldn't be very happy either.
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But that's where you get creative with the serving, laying extra strands under the serving, doubling the serving on itself, etc.
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Yes, 5 times the poundage of the bow is the same thing as my formula but then we would be using the same math... and that's a scary thing. :P
Oh, and none of my bows are happy. They are stressed. >:D
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The 90lb test sounds a little high but it might be right. I've got 80lb test Dyneema braided fishing line and it seems a bit heftier than a single strand of my FF. I believe Dyneema and Spectra are basically the same thing: the material FF is made of.
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I did look on the Angel Majesty web site but it was not much use, it assumed we all shoot those sissy target bows
They have very litte information, but I thought you guys would like these two quotes.
I usually use 10 strands, but padded out round the nocks and serving with a few strands of Dacron.... (gotta use it up somehow ;) )
...14 to 18 strands for recurve bows, 20 to 24 strand for compound bows...
ASB causes the initial velocity to increase. When you release an arrow, you can feel few fluttering.
ASB makes you to get much more bull points.
Don't get points for bull on this site ;D
Del
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Don't get points for bull on this site ;D
Del
Oh contraire!
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Don't get points for bull on this site ;D
Del
Oh contraire!
They are right about getting fewer flutterings... I think it's just my age ::)
Del
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I'm sorry to say but this debate is starting to sound like a bunch of compound guys describing their pulleys!
I still feel guilty using modern string materials and wouldn't be able to sleep at night unless I used 18-22 strands of Fast Flight just for the look. Some of the arrows I'm making would look like broom handles if I shot them from a puny string!
I've only made one linen string so far and it's bulky so that's the look I want for all my bows and bugger performance.
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That doesn't make any sense :o :o
You'd purposely negate performance from a bow, just so that it looked like the first linen string that you made? What if you used the wrong linen, and made it badly?
You should look at the actual hemp string that was found on board the Mary Rose. It's tiny. There's a reason Pip whatsisface doesn't believe that any of the MR bows were over 100# in draw weight (which has clearly been disproven), and he's basing his information on the fact that the string and nocks were so small that no string that thin could withstand bows of 150# but of course we have no idea how the original strings were made.
The arrow nocks are tiny as well, so bulky 18 - 22 strand strings are totally untraditional AND will retard your cast. Doesn't seem logical to me ;) All the effort you put into tillering a bow is to make it as fast, powerful and effective as possible, so why suddenly decide not to use string that can help?
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Pish posh! Like I said earlier, I've tested this 'theory.' I tried a 14 strand FF, and a 20 strand FF, and I found ZERO difference in cast, all else being equal. With the 20 strand string, I didn't step back and go "holy shit, my arrows are falling 20 yards short." And, the 20 strand string is a lot nicer on my fingers!! The difference in weight between a 14 strand and a 20 strand string is NEGLIGIBLE. I've weighed them on a sensitive grain scale, and it's such a small amount as to not make a difference IMHO.
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OK... I looked up the data I recorded on string weights for my warbows. Two strings, both 74" long, one 14 strand, one 20 strand. D97 FF. That's waxed and ready to go, both with an 8" long X 0.24" diameter serving.
14 strand string... 131 grains
20 strand string... 146 grains
You do the math. It's nothing. I found it makes more of a difference what type and size of center serving I used and how much and what type of wax I used on the string that made the biggest difference! I had some 20 strand strings that actually weighed LESS than some 14 strand strings, because I used a smaller diameter serving and less of it.
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Oh, I'm with you on the "it doesn't really make a difference" thing. Everybody has their own preference. I quite like the feeling of very thin strings, even with high poundage bows and thin serving. As you say, there's more important factors such as wax, and of course the bow itself. Stick a 5 strand string on a sluggish badly tillered bow and it still ain't gonna go as far as a 30 strand rope on a reflexed power house of a bow.
I was actually only picking up on the comment "that's the look I want for all my bows and bugger performance" as it sounded "reet daft lad" as they say up north.
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Thought that might stir you up
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If a 14 strand string weighs 131 grains then a 20 strand string should weigh close to 200 grains. Almost 10 grains per strand. We did considerable testing on this using lighter hunting bows and found each 2 strands added reduces speed by 1 1/2 ft per second. Not sure how that would work out on a heavy war bow but any added mass reduces speed.
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If a 14 strand string weighs 131 grains then a 20 strand string should weigh close to 200 grains. Almost 10 grains per strand. We did considerable testing on this using lighter hunting bows and found each 2 strands added reduces speed by 1 1/2 ft per second. Not sure how that would work out on a heavy war bow but any added mass reduces speed.
Hi, Steve. I'm not sure what scale you're using, but I just weighed a 74" strand of D97 and it came out to 4.3 - 4.5 grains. I still agree that (all else being equal) a lighter string will give better cast, but for heavy warbows, I think the difference is negligible. I think this issue is much more important for pure flight shooters, using lighter draw weight bows, and very light flight arrows.
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Ad, I just divided 14 into 131 and it came out to 9.35 per strand, I multiplied that by 20 and came out with 187 grains, but as you say on a war bow I doubt it would make an appreciable difference. When i went to the walk the talk event we tested same bow with different string counts. These were 50# bows. Every 2 strands seem to make a 1.5 fps difference.
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Those weights are for complete strings, waxed and with 8" - 9" center serving. Like I already said, I have some 20 strand strings that weigh less than some 14 and 16 strand strings, depending on how heavily they're waxed and what kind of center serving they have.
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I thought about that afterward, i didnt allow for wax and serving, brain dead sometimes.
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I was very surprised when I realised how much weight the wax adds to the string.
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eight
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eight
??? ???
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Hello,
I tested the breaking strength of different modern material and FF+ came out close to 50 pounds.
It was not a 'scientific' test, I just tied the string samples around a bucket grip (soft and smooth and without a knot) and filled in weight until the string broke.
I repeated this procedure more than a dozen times with each string material I tested and avaraged out the results.
That's also the way I test linen and other natural fibers and it worked well so far.
By the way, Dacron B50 and B500 registered at about 35 pounds, D-75 at 65 and 'D-75 thin' at about 50.
ciao,
gian-luca
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Thanks for all the input guys :).
I went with 14 with a couple of extra strands laid in at the loops.
Del
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Hello,
I tested the breaking strength of different modern material and FF+ came out close to 50 pounds.
It was not a 'scientific' test, I just tied the string samples around a bucket grip (soft and smooth and without a knot) and filled in weight until the string broke.
I repeated this procedure more than a dozen times with each string material I tested and avaraged out the results.
That's also the way I test linen and other natural fibers and it worked well so far.
By the way, Dacron B50 and B500 registered at about 35 pounds, D-75 at 65 and 'D-75 thin' at about 50.
ciao,
gian-luca
Excellent. Thanks for sharing.
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Those breaking strains concure with my testing as well.
A really good linen string is the same or not much bigger diameter than b50 of evivalent strength in my experience. Bickerstaffe has jumped to conclusions about nock sizes and that sort of thing IMO. Those strings would have been made from the finest materials available with superb knowledge to back up the process.
Using fastflight I would use 8 strands with a dyneema serving for performance . 12 for all 'roundedness' and 18 for a 'last for ever' string.
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adb, i wasnt joking about the eight