Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Capt on September 19, 2013, 09:58:21 pm
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Ok, another 6 hours straight making a work bench then Draw knifing, rasping and sanding until i got dizzy... literally i was so dehydrated that i nearly passed out a couple of times.....
But putting in the elbow grease was worth it
I got the stave worked down to my dimensions some progress with the handle and thinned the limbs down to 9/16" give or take a thou of an inch...
It's starting to bend against the floor and i feel ready for the recurve bends tomorrow... Got to make a bloody frame to bend it over first unless i can find anything around the house with a nice radius that i can clamp to..... (BTW what is the best radius for a 33 degree bend of the last 6 1/2" of limb)??
Please check the pics and feel free to comment.... ;)
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before you cut that arrow rest in it you can send it to me. It just is not worthy of your nice work. >:D
I will treat it nice and drop a deer with it. LOL ;)
It's looking good
Greg
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My thoughts exactly. Forget the arrow shelf. Not necessary and it just weakens the bow. With properly matched arrows, it will be plenty accurate. The only other thing I'd do is make the back profile taper continuous. Forget the 5" straight bit out of the fades. Make what you have labelled as your 'working section' a continuous taper.
What you have so far looks fantastic. Flip those tips, and get it tillered!
The radius and length of your bend will depend on what you want... from a working recurve to a static tip.
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My thoughts exactly. Forget the arrow shelf. Not necessary and it just weakens the bow. With properly matched arrows, it will be plenty accurate. The only other thing I'd do is make the back profile taper continuous. Forget the 5" straight bit out of the fades. Make what you have labelled as your 'working section' a continuous taper.
What you have so far looks fantastic. Flip those tips, and get it tillered!
The radius and length of your bend will depend on what you want... from a working recurve to a static tip.
+1
I made a couple of bows w arrow passes till I realized that a bow w matched arrows is just as accuate as a bow w a shelf and matched arrows. Now I prefer to not have a arrow shelf. I like em real simple.
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I like the 5" width I do that on alot of my bows.
Everything looks good.....minus that cut in shelf :P
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Hey cut the rest in I don't understand why a lot of guys on here a have a problem with them but if you want an arrow rest cut it I would.
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I like the 5" width I do that on alot of my bows.
Everything looks good.....minus that cut in shelf :P
Arrow shelf discrimination
I knew it... i drew that shelf on there with big black pen knowing it would provoke debate on here..... i agree if you match the arrows it won't matter 'much' but it does matter some.....
With a shelf you can shoot a wider range of arrows.... And achieve more impact power due to limiting or reducing archers paradox by having stiffer arrows.
granted when you have a flexy arrow it will bend around the handle and then go into an archers paradox kind of movement and eventually straighten out but all this results in loss of force...
Besides i like the look of a sexy curved ergonomic arrow shelf... it adds technicality and is an extra challenge for me to do it right.. i.e. not loose strength in the handle...
(i have compensated for the removal of wood in the shelf area by having a deeper handle at this point and wider on the opposite side rather than a standard symmetrical flared handle style.. Even with the arrow-shelf cut to near center there is still 1" of width at this point in the handle)
If you want to hear more on this subject there is a real interesting You Tube video by some guy from Sweeden or Finland.... He rants on quite a bit but he has some really good videos and i think an awesome calm happy attitude... This video is the most stressed he ever seems going on about the discrimination of the arrow-shelf... :laugh:
http://youtu.be/0LlzQyx6zAk
if the link doesn't work look for 'discrimination of traditional archers' on you-tube
>:D
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I believe that stave really wants to come to Texas, my house specifically! Looks good..but i agree with the others, lose the shelf,, you really wont miss it at all, but what do i know ive only got 2 bows under my belt..lol
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I believe that stave really wants to come to Texas, my house specifically! Looks good..but i agree with the others, lose the shelf,, you really wont miss it at all, but what do i know ive only got 2 bows under my belt..lol
Not just a stave any more.. Almost a Bow... ;)
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As long as you have more than 1 3/4" of depth to your handle area you'll have enough to cut a shelf without compromising the strength of your bow(if done right) ...cutting a shelf doesn't weaken your bow if correctly carried out...I've done it oodles of times with no issue....don't listen to the nay sayers...its just a personal preference thing and that's it...and nothing wrong with it if that's your cup of tea...if I cut a shelf I make sure I have 1 7/8" to start out with on rough out to make sure I'll still have enough minimal depth to cut one out....and wait till you know which side the string favors the handle to cut it out(I do mine after full draw is achieved on the tree and its ready to start shooting) ....if you'd like some examples of mine I can post some links to mine for reference if you'd like?
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Looking good so far, still looks pretty thick to bend,9/16 is pretty think unless you plan on building a really heavy bow.At 63 inches long it has to be 80 or 90 lbs right now. the closer to bow dimensions the easier they bend without problems. :)
Pappy
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I've made plenty with a shelf myself. Like Chris says, it don't hurt nothing if properly done. It looks like your coming right along with your project. Nice work so far! Josh
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OK, OK... I admit it. ::) The arrow shelf thing is a preference. I just don't like the way it looks. I prefer the clean lines of an uncut handle. Senor Blackhawk is right... if done correctly, it's fine. Just make sure your handle has enough thickness.
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As with anything made of wood, whatever you do to weaken an area (in this case, an arrow pass) you need to make up in some other way to get the strength back. The handle/riser needs to be a bit deeper, or you do some fancy laminating or I-beam voodoo. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. That looks like a primo stave!
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Morning All,
I got my straightening done last night and am really liking the shape as is. ;)
I think i may want to forget about the recurved tips all together... i had my fun with the heat just removing the twist and straightening out some kinks in the limbs.... I'm on such a learning curve and really want this bow to come out as nice as possible... i don't want to bite off more than i should be chewing and mess something up.... with the handle design... applying tips, snakeskin, working on my tillering skills and making target weight i will have more than enough to contend with....
Down to a couple of questions... i want to glue on some Tzalam hardwood tips and was thinking i should do this before putting on a tillering string and starting to tiller.. is that the best way to go? Also what kind of glue should i use to put on the tip wood? i have access to tire bond II will that do the job or should i be using some other type of adhesive?
Another question, during the heating which was to temper and straighten a few minuscule cracks that go with the grain seem to have appeared on the back of one limb.. they are really faint and hardly noticeable not sure if you can even make them out in the pic? Should i worry about this? if so what should i do? wold painting on tite bond II before tillering be a good a good idea? i was going to seal the back with TBII or TB hyde glue before putting on the snake skin anyway?
Please Any tips or advice on proceeding from here much appreciated....
Bests to all, Capt ???
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This is where I'd start checking the bend to determine if I was going to add some static recurve or not. If it looks to me like I've got plenty of room to work with to make a decent bend at a decent weight I start steaming (personal preference, Osage takes dry heat pretty well), or if it looks like I goofed a little too much I might just reflex the whole thing a little to try to come out flat.
I'm slightly unorthodox, though. Yesterday I tillered a bow using a machete. Don't take anything I say as the approved method ::)
I'd also draw and start filing the nocks, sanding away the profile lines, and rounding the edges of the back.
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Capt......Your doing fine.It would'nt hurt to put an 1and 1/2" flip on the last 4 to 5 inches of your bow tips.That might give ya a 25 to 30 degree bend.Round your corners on the back before doing any bending.I've used the edge of a 2"by4" to the curvature I want.I put a channel shaped strap on the end to hold the tip in place attached to the sides of the 2"by4".The 2'by4" I use is about 2' long.That way when I get through steaming and put the bend to the tip I make sure it is flat and in line to the handle.I think you can afford a little reflex in your working limbs too overall.Starting at your fades and increasing more to the base of your recurve of say inch of reflex.What your trying to accomplish here is to compensate for the amount of set your bow will take through tillering.Right now as said you have a pretty heavy bow.Compare your floor tillering of this bow to the bow you just made for pressure and a nice even bend before long stringing it.Take your time.Make sure you feel comfortable doing this.When does your hog season start?
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Nice progress,looks good.
I actually prefer a cut in shelf so go for it ;D
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Tite bond 2 works good for tips
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I think you are coming along good too. I have used tight bond 2 and 3 for tips with no bad results. I use super glue sometimes too - that way I can start working on it again in a couple of hours. I wouldn't worry about those little longitudinal drying cracks unless they really look severe and then maybe I would squirt a little superglue in them, but I bet they are nothing to worry about. That looks like a great stave. Should make a good bow.
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Tite bond 2 works good for tips
Nah... takes too long to dry. Industrial strength CA glue is strong and quick.
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Tite bond 2 works good for tips
Nah... takes too long to dry. Industrial strength CA glue is strong and quick.
Whatever who cares how long it takes to dry
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Is TB III better for tips and skins and finishing than TB 2??, saya on The bottle It is not as water resistat?
I just bought III and want to use it for everything is it a good option? Any better that 2.. Any what about TB polyurethane ??
I'd love to save money and have an adhesive that is good for tips, skins and finish??
I can take it back and change it, and I'd buy a selection but they only sell in 1 qt bottles here...
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TB 3 will do everything on your list. I use it for most everything.
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Whatever glue you use is fine.i used to use super glue[never a failure yet but now i use smooth on epoxy].It's a slow setting epoxy.No failures with that either.I just use a vice grip set at the right tension and pad the jaws with leather.
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Nice stave and your doing good on it. Your getting good advice on the glue options, any of those will work fine.
Beadmans advice of putting a little reflex in the limbs and doing a mild flip on the tips is what i would do also.
Reflexing and tip flip shaping of osage is easy and takes very little time at all and you'll likely be happier with the
bow when it shows less string follow after tillered and shot in. Don't forget to round those corners also
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doing a mild flip on the tips is what i would do also.
Yep im going for the flipping of the tips... May Keep them semi-static?.....What do you all think? Pic of tip bending... >:D
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I usually go semi static for the sake of mass efficiency.
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Tips looks fine.Your lucky it's osage.It conforms to dry heat very well.If that was hickory that does have some spring back most times so you have to try to start with more bend with that stuff.You'll get the feel of it after making more bows as to how and what a heat gun will do on different types wood.If you ever want to make a form for a proper reflex on a bow Gary Davis' video is very good to see.He's been making bows quite some time.He's got it down,but I can see your perception of bow making is pretty good already and I'm sure you can come up with a form for some reflex in the limb.
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"semi static" - is there such a thing ??
seems to me that the tips would "open" a bit OR be static..
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That's a fairly shallow bend and that's totally fine if that's what you want. The curve will pull out a wee bit on any bow I've recurved, so I usually go a bit further than where I want to end up. Osage is good wood to bend, it likes it. Don't be afraid to take it where you want it. I've included a pic of my recurve form, to give you and idea of what's possible.
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"semi static" - is there such a thing ??
seems to me that the tips would "open" a bit OR be static..
By semi-static I mean much less give than the working section but not quite compleatly rigid... I want them to work like leavers but with the least possible mass... Don't want hand shock developing from heave static tips... But want the leaver effect to give extra speed....
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Static tips are no heavier than straight tips. I should explain myself better, sorry.
For the most part the last 6-8" of the limb doesn't bend. It doesnt matter what shape that last 6-8" is formed to. It still weighs the same after bending and still doesn't move albeit a true static or just a flip.
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Static tips are no heavier than straight tips. I should explain myself better, sorry.
For the most part the last 6-8" of the limb doesn't bend. It doesnt matter what shape that last 6-8" is formed to. It still weighs the same after bending and still doesn't move albeit a true static or just a flip.
I've only been able to get the bend within two inches of the tips while going for as close to 100% working wood as possible on an experimental BL stave, making for one inch of static wood before the knock. The last few inches had to be tapered very carefully and rather dynamically to get any bend at all, and got kinda scary thin at the end.
Non static tips are fun for me, and I suggest them because they're technically more mass efficient, but really the milligrams aren't going to do much for arrow speed. It isn't hard to get a little bend in there, but continuing elliptical tiller to the tips is... Ambitious ;)
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Ok Almost done.... Shot a few arrows today... Its a beast!! >:D
Still want to do a little rework on the tips... i wanted to keep them static but i think they look a bit fat so i plan to thin em down a bit more...
Also still waiting to get my rattle snake skins.. i have to head up to the ranch this week and see if the ranch hand killed any recently... trade him some beers or cigarettes for em? ??? I do really like the way it looks as is though... finished with a bit of Hemp seed oil....
Here are some pics... in the morning i'll be rasping down the tip thickness a bit and will load up some full draw pics after i'm done....
I hit target and had it at #60@27" but to be honest it was a bit tough stringing it to brace comfortably and it just felt too heavy to pull repeatedly for practicing... i settled for #55@27" in the end....
Let me know how it looks?
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Tite bond 2 works good for tips
Nah... takes too long to dry. Industrial strength CA glue is strong and quick.
Whatever who cares how long it takes to dry
Me ;)
Superglue all the way.
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When those checks appeared in the back of your stave after heating that was a 100% definate sign that your stave had too much moisture in it. What you should have done is left it to dry for a while and maybe used a hot box.
The moisture content of a stave is determined by the temperature and releative humidity of where it has been stored. Time isn't really relavent...it could have been cut 20 years ago but if it had sat those 20 years out in my workshop (for example) it still wouldn't have been down below 13 -15 % moisture content because of the combination of temperature and RH here. To get my wood bow making dry I have to hot box it or bring it inside. Bow wood needs to be below 12% preferably closer to 9 -10% as a general rule.
Look at this table http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html
Personally I would put your bow in a hot box for a couple of days and then recheck the weight to make sure it's still where you want it eg. 55#
I would also highly recommend you get a good finish to put on your bow. Hemp oil won't protect it very well at all. Yatch varnishes are normally very good but thin the first couple of coats (normally with white spirit).
All in all your bow looks great for your 2nd!
Well done :)
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Patience,patience,patience.
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When those checks appeared in the back of your stave after heating that was a 100% definate sign that your stave had too much moisture in it. What you should have done is left it to dry for a while and maybe used a hot box.
The moisture content of a stave is determined by the temperature and releative humidity of where it has been stored. Time isn't really relavent...it could have been cut 20 years ago but if it had sat those 20 years out in my workshop (for example) it still wouldn't have been down below 13 -15 % moisture content because of the combination of temperature and RH here. To get my wood bow making dry I have to hot box it or bring it inside. Bow wood needs to be below 12% preferably closer to 9 -10% as a general rule.
Look at this table http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html
Personally I would put your bow in a hot box for a couple of days and then recheck the weight to make sure it's still where you want it eg. 55#
I would also highly recommend you get a good finish to put on your bow. Hemp oil won't protect it very well at all. Yatch varnishes are normally very good but thin the first couple of coats (normally with white spirit).
All in all your bow looks great for your 2nd!
Well done :)
EXCELLENT info Mike.
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Might just be me, but it looks as though it's taken a fair bit of set already. I don't know if the stave was deflexed at all, but if it wasn't, and that is string follow already, what mike said is even more appropriate. The moisture level may have been the reason for the string follow as compared to tillering mistakes. In fact your tiller looks good at brace and the unstrung profile doesn't show areas of set, rather it's spread over the whole bow which to me suggests high moisture.
I may be totally wrong, and overall your bow looks ace, very clean and nicely finished with a great shape. It might just be worth clamping it up with a hint of reflex and leaving for a few days or a week to ensure it will be as punchy as it could be!
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Go back to reply # 29 of osage stave arriving.
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Looks nice! Hero pic?
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Yah, can't wait to see the money shot!
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Great job for your second bow man. Can't wait to see the full draw :).
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That's a pretty good second bow....and ya got some good advice on what to do better next time ;)
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Thanks Everyone for the great advice and Kind compliments.... :)
I am pretty happy with this one to be honest. I really liked working with the Osage i know its hard but still much easier to work than the Tzalam (1st bow)
Came out 62" NTN, hit my weight 60#@28" (or a touch over 55#@27"), and i like the bit of Deflex to recurved tips..... Still id like to get my snake skins on... don't want to call it finished until then...
Here are some pics taken this morning i got the set out to where i want it and put in some profile shots and marked up the handle...
oh and the money shot as you all put it... ;)
Bests to all, Capt
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I think there are some wild pigs in the desert that are not long for this Earth! That's a beautiful bow sir...
OneBow
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That is an awesome bow for your second! Well done! I really like the way the grain feathers nicely from the grip into the fades. Fresh osage looks so good!
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Very well done, nothing like osage.
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Oh... yah, yah... that cut in arrow shelf looks pretty good. O:)
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Ok ok ok,, im with adb :o the shelf does indeed look good on THAT bow..lol uncle!
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Good looking bow Cap. You did a good job with that osage, so well its hard to believe thats only your second bow. I'm thinking we'll be seeing more fine bows from you soon.
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Thanks again everyone.... ;)
Adb was asking for a square side on view to get a better look at tiller... this is not the way i shoot but heres a more olympic form type stance.... ::)
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Yes, sir... looks great! Nice tiller.
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nice. I love a clean, simple, solid bow. only thing wrong with it is the shelf ;)
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Good looking bow Cap. You did a good job with that osage, so well its hard to believe thats only your second bow.
I'm real happy with how they are coming out too.. I've built a bit of furniture in the past so I've got some woodworking experience and have shaped surf boards which takes some similar type skill in terms of having an eye for symmetry and such... its been a real learning curve but a thoroughly enjoyable challenge... and the end result will be the best of it... >:D Time to head out and get me some game....
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Nice work! I build with shelves most of the time. Shallow ,but still a shelf. Looks great!
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Great job man looks awesome. You should be stoked for its only your second bow :)
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Very nice, good tiller and finish. That Osage looks like its glowing 8)
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Beautiful bow,finish work looks great and the tiller is dead on.Very nice for any bow but for your 2nd, unbelievably nice . ;) :)
Pappy
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Thanks again all for the inspiring comments... I't pains me to do it because i think the Osage has such natural beauty but i think i want to stain the tips and handle into the limbs a bit before i put on the snake skins... just so i blends into the bush better for hunting?
What kind of stain is best both for protection and durability? after its stained and skinned i was just going to seal / finish with hemp oil and bees wax... does that sound like a good plan?
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Sweet! I like your drawing plans you showed as well. I've kept a bowyering journal since 2004 and it has helped me think though a lot of bows in progress. Taking them from my mind then onto my hands.
I really enjoyed looking at your whole process here. Again sweet looking bow there.
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Well done!!
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Very well done!