Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Eric Garza on September 19, 2013, 11:24:18 am
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While perusing an older thread (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36150.0.html), I came across numerous claims of the longevity of osage orange bows. What is the oldest shootable osage orange bow that people have first-hand experience with?
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About 40-50 years. My buddy found a Grumley replica in the trash can. I braced it and shot it several times.
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The Osage bow in my office was built 5 yrs ago. I don't shoot or hunt with it exclusively but I have killed 3 deer with it.
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My favorite osage selfbow... 66" ntn and 63# @ 28"... has been my #1 bow for hunting and target shooting since '04 and shows no signs of wear. Not old by some standards, but it's spent those years shooting and braced for countless hours hunting. She.... Lioness.... still stands straight and is anxious to hunt again in a couple weeks.
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40-50 years seems quite old. Are there any other species of wood that can boast similar longevity for self bows?
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Eric I could tell my looking at the bow he had been used hard in its lifetime.
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I think this is one more of those "too many factors" question.
surely what kind of wood matters but also storing,care,amount of use,climate matters a lot.
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I believe a well made, well cared for and carefully used osage bow will easily last a lifetime. I have some that are >10 years old that have shot thousands of arrows, and besides being darker brown, they look and perform the same as the day they were made.
I also have a 50's or 60's vintage Bear static recurve that has osage as the core. It's FG limbs mind you, but it is in mint condition and still gets shot regularily.
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I think this is one more of those "too many factors" question. Surely what kind of wood matters but also storing,care,amount of use,climate matters a lot.
Fair enough. If I had an osage bow and a hickory bow and stored, cared and used them the same, would they last equally long?
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Uh oh............now you opened a can of squirmy worms Mr. Garza!
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If I had to pick... like really PICK just one... I'd go with the osage. Every time.
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How about this thought. Since hickory is very hydroscopic, or whatever that word is. If a person was to shoot his hickory bow year round whenever they felt the desire with no regard to seasons or weather. Would it be detrimental to the bow during high humidity? Is it crushing cells each time its drawn while "wet"?
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I saw an osage bow that was 37 years old being shot.Gods' truth.Shot real well,about 30 shots or so.But all of a sudden it snapped in half at the handle.I examined it and it was a spliced handled bow.Looked like a too dry wood type of break.Like said earlier construction,care,and use all contribute here.Some people take better care of their bows than others.That's the beauty of the self bow.Just make another that'll be your favorite.Just think if you shoot every week at least 100 arrows X 52 that's over 5000 arrows X 10 years = +50,000 arrows.That's a lot of fun and entertainment for something with a minimal investment.No matter what the wood.
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While not is use per se I think the Yew bows of the Mary Rose have to be mentioned, 450 years and still shootable?
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Uh oh............now you opened a can of squirmy worms Mr. Garza!
So far so good >:D
...But all of a sudden it snapped in half at the handle.I examined it and it was a spliced handled bow...
So do you think the failure was due to the wood, or perhaps due to the adhesive used for the splice?
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I'd go with the glue being dry and old.
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How about this thought. Since hickory is very hydroscopic, or whatever that word is. If a person was to shoot his hickory bow year round whenever they felt the desire with no regard to seasons or weather. Would it be detrimental to the bow during high humidity? Is it crushing cells each time its drawn while "wet"?
I spent most the summer shooting a hick bow that when it was dry this winter it pulled 55@ 27 in August if fell to 49@ 27 and felt spongy...So I made another to shoot ;) I like to wear them out then I can build another. I will test said bow this winter and see if it goes back up to 55. I doubt it though.
Greg
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How about this thought. Since hickory is very hydroscopic, or whatever that word is. If a person was to shoot his hickory bow year round whenever they felt the desire with no regard to seasons or weather. Would it be detrimental to the bow during high humidity? Is it crushing cells each time its drawn while "wet"?
I spent most the summer shooting a hick bow that when it was dry this winter it pulled 55@ 27 in August if fell to 49@ 27 and felt spongy...So I made another to shoot ;) I like to wear them out then I can build another. I will test said bow this winter and see if it goes back up to 55. I doubt it though.
Greg
So you're saying your bows wear out in less than a year ?
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Regardless to what he is saying, I think he is experiencing moisture dampening his bow. In the winter the poundage will go back up. Not all the way, but it will go back up.
I have handles an osage bow close to 100 years old. It was the darkest reddest brown you can imagine. I bent it a few times without a string ( it didnt have one ) and it seemed fine to me. it was a straight and crudely made stick with deep side nocks and a rounded end. I recall it being a bendy handle and not very long. I was very tempted to offer to make a string to string it up. But, I didnt want to be the cause a 100 year old bow broke.
Another guy I spoke to told me he owns an 80 year old osage made by his grandfather. He wanted to know if it could still shoot. without seeing it I couldnt tell him. He was supposed to show me but never did.
If the bow is well cared for, and the wood is quality, I cant see them not lasting longer than we our selves do. Trees were built to flex. I dont think they wear out. Look at the 1000+ year old redwoods, and Joshua trees. Just past the sapwood they are all dead wood, as the layer just under the bark is the only living part. And they bend all the time in wind. I dont think a well made and cared for bow of any wood can ever die.
So now I must ask, what bow have you got you are worried about? Did you find some old neat relic?
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How about this thought. Since hickory is very hydroscopic, or whatever that word is. If a person was to shoot his hickory bow year round whenever they felt the desire with no regard to seasons or weather. Would it be detrimental to the bow during high humidity? Is it crushing cells each time its drawn while "wet"?
I spent most the summer shooting a hick bow that when it was dry this winter it pulled 55@ 27 in August if fell to 49@ 27 and felt spongy...So I made another to shoot ;) I like to wear them out then I can build another. I will test said bow this winter and see if it goes back up to 55. I doubt it though.
Greg
So you're saying your bows wear out in less than a year ?
Im not sure he said that directly big Joe. But he did somewhat answer my question. He shot his hickory bows during the worse time you can shoot a hickory bow. The bows lost a bunch of weight that wont come back, thats damaged wood. So my answer to Erics question about all woods making an equally durable bow would be, nope. Unless I can my shoot bow whenever I feel like it with no measureable ill effects, its not durable bow wood and wont last as long as some others. No matter its design (within reason).
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Regional climate would have to be considered in determining one bow woods longevity over another. IF it is true that Osage and yew get brittle when too dry, then hickory would be the better bet for longevity in the arid regions. I don't know if that is true. I've no experience with yew at all and I've never seen a case personally where Osage got brittle from too dry of an environment. I do know that hickory is every bit as good as Osage where I live due to the somewhat drier climate. If I lived 3 or 4 hrs farther east, hickory would not be so high on my preferred list. Just something to think about. Josh
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So now I must ask, what bow have you got you are worried about? Did you find some old neat relic?
Nope, unfortunately no old neat relic. I've just been reflecting on how much time I've spent over the last decade making bows. I've made several hickory bows that shot nicely for one season, but when I dusted them off the next spring seemed to have lost a lot of their uumph. I've only made a couple osage bows, and one I donated to a local organization to raffle and the other was too short for me to shoot comfortably so it ended up in the wood stove. I'm wondering if it's worth investing in more osage staves and if I'd end up with longer-lasting bows if I did so.
In truth I've already answered this question to a degree, from other reading and judging by the fact I have two nice staves on the drying rack that I'll start cleaning up early next spring.
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If i lived on the east coast, there wouldn't even be a question in my mind as to what would last longer. Osage would be top of the list for me. Come to think of it, it is anyway. But only by a small margin. Josh
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What's your second choice, behind osage orange?
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I have made some nice whitewood bows and taken deer with them. I think hickory, white oak, and elm are good bow wood, but there aren't any 50 and 100 year old fence posts around my area that aren't osage or cedar.... Some of the older farmers here argue that osage outlasts steel T posts. Anything that can last outside in the elements for decades is something special.
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For my region it was hickory. I say was because my ironwood(hhb) stash is finally seasoned and I'm just starting to work with it. It's too early to say for sure, but I suspect that it will be my second choice, replacing hickory. Like I said, that's sort of a preliminary opinion. I need to make another half dozen or so different design bows with it to get a better feel for it. I don't believe that one or two bows of a species of wood is enough to provide adequate experience to base a well informed opinion on. I plan on harvesting some vinemaple next time I'm in the PNW. I suspect it for a top slot as well. I'm only basing that on reports from folks that I highly respect and my purple pinecone bow that i got in the bow trade. That is one impressive performer. Josh
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Because were human and not perfect osage is #1 ..let's face it no one "perfectly" cares for there bows no matter how hard they try.....no other wood can compare to taking all the abuses it can take and still shoot well and long lived..and the abuse list to bows is loooooooong....I've been around n making bows long enough now to see a higher percentage of my osage bows outlast " white" bows in my experiences...and I would think I know how to design and care for a bow(or maybe I'm wrong)...I think my second choice for all around durability and lasting a good while wood be black locust...
I like to sing this from time to time..its my rendition of the bowyers national anthem...
" O-sage can you see..by the bowyers bench...what so proudly we hail...as the king of all bow wood...and the yeller woods bending everywhere..while the white woods breaking everywhere..gave proof thru the night...that osage is still there....o say does that yeller wood banner yet wave...in the land of the free..and in the home of the bowyer" !!!!! ;D
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:o Don't quit your day job, Chris :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Dang it! I completely forgot about black locust. There's a lot of posts and pole barns that speak to its longevity in humid climates.
Oh...I second Danzn bar's statement! That really was terrible Chris! Lol! Josh
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" O-sage can you see..by the bowyers bench...what so proudly we hail...as the king of all bow wood...and the yeller woods bending everywhere..while the white woods breaking everywhere..gave proof thru the night...that osage is still there....o say does that yeller wood banner yet wave...in the land of the free..and in the home of the bowyer" !!!!! ;D
Nice! When's the YouTube version going up? Talk about a video with the potential to go viral :P
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blackhawk you're a creative goof......LOL.
Black locust was and still is second choice by farmers around me for long lasting fence posts.Actually sometimes more preferrable with it being straighter than osage.
I listened to an old fella having a pond made for himself.He as putting osage posts in like posts in the hard pan floor of pond for strucure for fish.Someone jokingly asked how long you figure those'll last?He said OOOOh thirty years then they'll turn into iron.Low oxygen and pressure down there I'm sure he's right.
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The fact that you can take a 70 year old Osage fence post and still make a bow from it says a lot I'd like to see someone do that with any whitewood
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The fence post part of Osage is a nice trick. Its due to its rot resistance. White woods dont have that trick up their sleeve. Regardless, I put Elm at the top of the list. It can handle back violations like Osage can only dream of, has interlocking grain like hickory without hickories moisture problem, and can make high stressed short bow designs very similar to Osage, and maybe even better in some instances.
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How about this thought. Since hickory is very hydroscopic, or whatever that word is. If a person was to shoot his hickory bow year round whenever they felt the desire with no regard to seasons or weather. Would it be detrimental to the bow during high humidity? Is it crushing cells each time its drawn while "wet"?
I spent most the summer shooting a hick bow that when it was dry this winter it pulled 55@ 27 in August if fell to 49@ 27 and felt spongy...So I made another to shoot ;) I like to wear them out then I can build another. I will test said bow this winter and see if it goes back up to 55. I doubt it though.
Greg
So you're saying your bows wear out in less than a year ?
No saying it lost 6 lbs of draw weight. It still shoots fine with arrows spined for a 49lb bow. What I am waiting to see is if the draw wt goes back up when rh goes down.
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Because were human and not perfect osage is #1 ..let's face it no one "perfectly" cares for there bows no matter how hard they try.....no other wood can compare to taking all the abuses it can take and still shoot well and long lived..and the abuse list to bows is loooooooong....I've been around n making bows long enough now to see a higher percentage of my osage bows outlast " white" bows in my experiences...and I would think I know how to design and care for a bow(or maybe I'm wrong)...I think my second choice for all around durability and lasting a good while wood be black locust...
I like to sing this from time to time..its my rendition of the bowyers national anthem...
" O-sage can you see..by the bowyers bench...what so proudly we hail...as the king of all bow wood...and the yeller woods bending everywhere..while the white woods breaking everywhere..gave proof thru the night...that osage is still there....o say does that yeller wood banner yet wave...in the land of the free..and in the home of the bowyer" !!!!! ;D
ROTFL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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I listened to an old fella having a pond made for himself.He as putting osage posts in like posts in the hard pan floor of pond for strucure for fish.Someone jokingly asked how long you figure those'll last?He said OOOOh thirty years then they'll turn into iron.Low oxygen and pressure down there I'm sure he's right.
Hey Sir, where's this Pond located?
I still have a full set O Dive Gear and Waterproof CavNav's...
And I'll bring my Pirate Eye Patch...
>:D
-gus
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I have no clue which is the best but I do know that this old Gilman Keasey Yew bow is the one I judge all other bows by. Every time I finish a bow and shoot it for awhile, I take down the Keasey and throw a dz or so arrows at the bale. And then I say to myself, okay Fred, you're still not there yet. I believe Gilman built the bow in 1961 and it was well used and well taken care of long before I happened upon it. So there's 50+ years that I know of.
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Gus...Yea I used to swim in mine.There are lots and lots of ponds around me here.Anywhere from 15 to 30 feet deep normally.Some deeper.They put walleyes in those.This guys was about 5 miles from me.There's hedge growing all along our fence lines over here.Hundreds of miles of it.Lots of times I get this red hedge.Kinda pretty but I don't see much diff in it from yellow hedge.If both are dryed and seasoned their good to go.The red just turns darker quicker with age.I like hedge just the way it is.No dying,backing,sinewing or anything.It can stand on it's own.
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"Oooooold Hickory.......my homely Native bow!" *
*for all you maple leafers out there!
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How about this thought. Since hickory is very hydroscopic, or whatever that word is. If a person was to shoot his hickory bow year round whenever they felt the desire with no regard to seasons or weather. Would it be detrimental to the bow during high humidity? Is it crushing cells each time its drawn while "wet"?
I spent most the summer shooting a hick bow that when it was dry this winter it pulled 55@ 27 in August if fell to 49@ 27 and felt spongy...So I made another to shoot ;) I like to wear them out then I can build another. I will test said bow this winter and see if it goes back up to 55. I doubt it though.
Greg
So you're saying your bows wear out in less than a year ?
No saying it lost 6 lbs of draw weight. It still shoots fine with arrows spined for a 49lb bow. What I am waiting to see is if the draw wt goes back up when rh goes down.
Ive had the same experience with several hickory bows. They just dont hold up to the humidity here in Oklahoma. The last hickory bow I built lost 7 lbs in 7 months and felt like a noodle. It made me so mad I swore to never use hickory again, I probably will though. Maybe if I lived in the desert it would be my first choice but I dont so I'll stick with osage.
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Now I wish somebody would start a thread on the longevity of hickory bows! Wonder how old the oldest whitewood bow is that is still shooting good ? I haven't been building bows long enough to have an informed opinion, but I have a couple of pecan and hickory bows that are a couple of years old that seem to be holding up fine. That said, they haven't been torture tested and stay in the house with the central heat and air. I string them up occasionally and shoot them for a bit and then they are right back indoors - no blizzards, hailstorms, or extended stays in the elements, but mine haven't lost any weight so far. I am curious to know how long they can last with this type of use.
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Twisted,
You may be experiencing weight loss because of temperature and not moisture. My go to bow is a hickory that's 4yrs. old and well sealed, I live in South Carolina a very humid climate. In the summer around 90-100 degrees my bow will feel just slightly spongy after I'm outside and weighs 2 lbs. less than it does in the winter. On a cold day in December it feels 5 lbs. heavier but probably because I'm cold...LOL What I'm trying to say is I can feel the difference because of temperature not humidity. My bow sleeps in an air conditioned home 99% of it's life and is well sealed. I think if your bow lost that much weight you would have visual set from moisture and probably not gain it all back.
I will open one more can of wormies here and say my wooden shafts also lose spine in the heat...I never hear anything about temperature affecting our equipment but it does especially in direct sunlight which I stay away from when possible, I hate heat >:D Let us know what happens this winter and good luck to everyone this hunting season.