Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Capt on September 17, 2013, 08:52:27 pm
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Well i finally got my stave after it getting stuck in Mexican Customs and then locked up in the post office for a long national holiday weekend...
I got it home about 5 hours ago and got stuck straight in... 5 hours scraping and sanding trying my best to get down to one growth ring then shaping it up a bit and sketching out a layout (please let me know if it looks like i violated the ring on any of the pics and how badly it might effect if so) ..... right now i just have center point, handle section and limb width....
Its 63" overall and i'm going to rough it out 1 and 7/8" inch wide from tip to tip to get started.. ill be leaving a 4" handle section + 2" either side for fades... thinning the limbs after the fades to about 5/8" all the way...
from there i want to shape her up with some heat...
One of the tips is already kind of naturally recurved with a bit of twist so once i have it totally roughed out i was going to make the next step to shape with heat my tips and take out the twist.... i want to try and get the twist out as i recurve the tips... What do you all think.... ;D
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I think it's easier to get the twist out once u recurve them. I'm new but it seems like simple leverage. A lot less force. It doesn't look twisted that bad. Usually I see ppl line up the tips once recurred. How wide is it? What's your lay out?
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Where is the bumps and roller coasters?? The back looks ok for all I can see and I lay mine out 1 1/2" at fade 1 1/8" halfway and 1/2" at tips.
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I like to get a bow floor tillered and smooth all the edges before I make any heat corrections. Less wood is easier to heat and bend.
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I like to get a bow floor tillered and smooth all the edges before I make any heat corrections. Less wood is easier to heat and bend.
Thanks Osage Outlaw - Exactly the kind of tip / advice im looking for... ill get it floor tillered and smooth then get it on the form...
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That is a freakin gorgeous stave wish I had a piece of Osage like that
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I cant even see a pin on it..am i looking wrong?? Lol nice stave right there
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That is a freakin gorgeous stave wish I had a piece of Osage like that
No comment of violation.... must have done ok with the chasing a ring stage then???
Here are a couple more pics of the back...
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I'm curious why you want the bow to be so wide? Most people make osage bows on the narrower side. I usually lay mine out to 1-3/8 or 1/1/4 wide through the middle 3/5th of the bow, then taper the tips down narrower.
And that is a very nice stave. I'm curious where you got it from?
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Good lookin stave. I also get my staves floor tillered before I do any heat correcting, its just easier that way. Looks like you could probably get a belly split off of it too.
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Heres my idea for the layout.. As you can see i've got option #1 and #2 for the limb design..... i kinda like the idea of being 1 7/8" out of the fades so i get less set because of all the humidity and heat down here..
Also i plan on putting in a shelf so this will give me more wood around the handle section to play with???..
(after my first bow the Tzalam pyramid with shelf i just really like shooting off a close to center shelf...)
Another reason is im shooting for a 60# @ 27.5" draw weight bow... this one is coming hunting and the pigs up in these hills are tough little buggers....!
Let me know what you think? :P
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#2
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Yeah i think #2 too.... im heading upto the ranch this week to get some rattlesnake skins for the working limbs.... >:D
Do any savvy folks know if i should get 60# Draw weight from the tapered limb design easily enough if i tiller for it?
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Was that stave split or sawn out? You won't be able to use the string trick for finding a center line on snakey staves. If that stave is split and its that straight it will work fine. If not, you will need to follow the grain. Are those pin knots in that one picture? Looks like you might have a little tear out on the back side of them. It doesn't look like its to bad, just pay attention to that area. You might want to soak them in superglue.
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Was that stave split or sawn out? You won't be able to use the string trick for finding a center line on snakey staves. If that stave is split and its that straight it will work fine. If not, you will need to follow the grain. Are those pin knots in that one picture? Looks like you might have a little tear out on the back side of them. It doesn't look like its to bad, just pay attention to that area. You might want to soak them in superglue.
Its split.. never seen a saw... the grain is super straight there is twist in one end but i plan to straighten it out..
As for the pin knots the only knots on the back i've taken another picture of... The one with a tiny bit of tear out is on the section that i plan to recurve and it wont really be working? What do you think?
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The bow I posted earlier has about 50 pin knots on the back. Make sure u go with the grain around them and ull be good.
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U are over building it. Osage is extremely dense and is not affected (hardly affected) by humidity. I live in probably the worst place in the us for its humidity and have no probs. go 1.5" at fades 1.25"ish at mid limb and 3/8" to 1/2" at tips. You are gonna see horrible results over building osage because if you do it too much it weighs so much it slows it down tremendously. Osage is dense and has good tension and compression so as long as you tiller slow like you should on any bow it will come out zero set. I just made a 64" osage bow off of the dimensions given at a 30" draw and it came out 50# like the guy I made it for asked for. I would say off of the given dimensions I would make 64" bows for 28" draws for straight limb bows as my bow had a natural reflex deflex which probably helped at eliminating set. Add 2" for every inch over and subtract the same amount for every inch under. You will be fine with a 62" bow
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If you go for option two I would start no less than 2" wide at the fade ... then go from there monitoring set and seeing if any additional width needs removed(but it won't)...your thickness taper for that front profile straightline taper from the fades(known as a pyramid) will be very subtle and almost the same thickness...you need to start that wide with that front profile because you need to make sure you end up with enough width thru mid limbs where most of the load will be happening.....and also you want each limb to have a "circular" tiller/bend in it...and make a form and use steam to bend your recurves
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If you flip the tips as much as you show in your drawing you are really cuttin down on your working limb length. You'll only end up with about 21" or so of working limb for a 27.5" draw. So I would keep all the width that you can to avoid lots of inner limb set. I would carry the 2" wide limbs out 6-8" or so to give you more midlimb width Or forget the recurves and just go with a straight taper pyramid.
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Make it like this :)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28587.msg379228/topicseen.html#msg379228
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Or this if you feel up for it ;)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38697.msg517454.html#msg517454
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On one of the pictures of the end of the stave there is a hump in the rings and you have taken the top of the hump eg. removed too much of the underlying ring whilst removing the last of the 'waste' wood. Be very careful of doing this as it weakens the back significantly even though you haven't gone all the way through the latewood.
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My friend, I live in SW Florida and heat and humidity are as common as old people from Chicago. Osage handles it beautifully and often times when I'm driving "in season" I'd like to use an Osage bow to handle the snowbirds.
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Thanks to all for the feedback..
Great advice....
Mike and Blackhawk i think you have given me the direction i need to know where i am going with this one...
When im done with the roughing out i'll be starting a new thread for the rest of the build... i think ive settled on the idea of a not such a straight taper to slight recurved tips try and keep as much working limb as possible... i need to get myself a good bench vise to be able to continue with the draw knife work....
I'm quite into the idea of steam Vs dry heat... do you think it is necessary to steam rather than dry heat if my recurve wont be so extreme or will dry heat do the trick just fine the wood being Osage and all?
Also i don't want to back with linen or rawhide. id preferably just keep a natural back then stick on some rattlesnake skin!!! Should i be fine going this route?
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Yes your gonna do fine Capt.Your rings were kinda thin but I've made hedge bows with a ring count of 16 rings per inch before with no problem.Your working limb lengths are plenty for your bow & your length of draw.[That's if it's properly tillered]Moniter it good as you tiller to see where set is being taken.Take your time.If yours turns to be a pyramid then your thickness taper will be less than with parralel width limbs.Like said that your mid limbs will be doing the lion share of the work.You'll want some width there to carry the load.If you go with parralel limbs to midlimb I would reduce width over all some.If a pyramid I would'nt.You'll be surprised too how well osage holds up to humidity changes etc.Reducing it down to 5/8" thick before correcting twist and inducing profile is good.
Personally I don't like cutting in a shelf but some do and that's fne.You'll be giving those pigs a hard time with that bow.They are tough.
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Thanks for the advice guys.. So you think I'm fine with dry heat? No need for steam if the bends are only going to be slight?
Wouldn't there also be some advantage with dry heat and Osage I.e. tempering of the belly wood giving added strength and helping me reach my target of 60# draw weight? ???
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Heres my idea for the layout.. As you can see i've got option #1 and #2 for the limb design..... i kinda like the idea of being 1 7/8" out of the fades so i get less set because of all the humidity and heat down here..
Also i plan on putting in a shelf so this will give me more wood around the handle section to play with???..
(after my first bow the Tzalam pyramid with shelf i just really like shooting off a close to center shelf...)
Another reason is im shooting for a 60# @ 27.5" draw weight bow... this one is coming hunting and the pigs up in these hills are tough little buggers....!
Let me know what you think? :P
Capt,
for what it's worth, I have never made a osage bow but the dimentions you are giving are nearly as wide as I make my hickory slef bows for humid Pennsylvania weather and I have two one that ended up being 58 lbs and the other is 70 when the humidity is down and 65 when it is very humid. The key difference is hickory is lower in specific gravity so ya might want to reconsider making such a wide limbed bow. I tried a wide one out of hickory and it wasn't as good a shooter as a narrow thicker limb bow of similar design.
I would guess someone w more experience w osage might chime in.
Greg
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Capt, osage doesn't respond good to heat tempering because of how dense it is. If any improvement, it will hardly be noticeable. And I would use steam for recurved because it could get too dry and I would personally want to wait for it to dry out then for it to accidentally crack because u didn't get it hot enough. I think you should read the tbb series and it will help a ton. Twisted hickory is right. Osage is REALLY dense. I would make it 1 1/2" at widest because it is nearly paper thin at 2". My 50 lb bow is deadly thin at 2" wide. You can lose more mass on the bow limbs(aka faster bow) by taking off width. You can take a 50# bow and cut the width in half and it will be 25#. The thickness is 8x that. So in other words u can have a narrow bow that is pretty thick that is faster because of reduced limb weight. But I would not make your recurve less than 1 1/2" wide at the widest. That way it doesn't get scary thin.
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Disagree with that entirely. Most Osage I have tempered benefitted from it. Maybe not as much as white woods, but worth the effort. Some I wont bother with, some I will temper. Experiment and come to your own conclusions. You will sometimes find that what you heard and thought was true, isn't always so. Dry heat on Osage for bending the tips is about all I do anymore. Severe hooks, steam. Flipping or mild to moderate bends, dry heat is fine. Just gotta go slow and easy.
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Capt I don't remember whether you said the date your stave was harvested.Even so even with my staves that are a year old I rough them out bring them inside.Weigh it till it quits losing weight at 50% humidity for at least a third of the time I'm weighing it.Then make my bow.You want it to be dry.Even hedge will take set a bunch if it's too wet.
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Thanks guys ill taki this all into consideration.....
Beadman - The stave is aged 18 months to two years.......
Kept in the general climate of Iowa... it has been in mexico Southern baja for one week and i assume acclimatized...
My roughing out is comming along until it just started to downpour.. i decided on a design and have the stave roughed out to a degree and marked up... i'll post a pic shortly... ;)
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Ah, I see. I've heard it doesn't benefit at all. But lik u said people have different opinions. I am making a osage bow with a violated back and it is holding together. I will back it but I'm amazed it hasn't snapped. It is a test for the wood.
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Don't mean to come off to abrupt, but the message stands. I once read, years ago, that you couldn't make a bow from boards. Most people repeated that as a fact. Turned out that few people were trying because others said it couldn't be done. Until it turned out not to be true. An opinion would be "boards aren't as good as staves", "I don't feel it's necessary to temper Osage". "Osage doesn't benefit from tempering" might be ones opinion, but it is simply not factual.
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Ok so i was outside roughing out... going at it like a beaver on crack with the draw knife... then it started to rain... i mean really rain tropical storm style....
Here are the pics of where i got to.... Decided to go with a pyramid type design... by type i mean 1 3/4" out of the fades and for continuing for the first 5"...... then a straight taper to 5/8" tips....
I plan to thin the belly of the limbs to 5/8" fades to tips and hope at that stage to be at the point of floor tiller..
From there i will sand belly and sides smooth (back is already slick) and stard with the straightening and bends
BTW: im going for 20 degree bends starting in the last 6 1/2" of limb.... How does it Sound??? / Look ?? ???
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You are looking good. Like said, Osage can take some heat treatment it's just not extremely important like whitewood. You'll do fine with dry heat and a little Crisco etc. for your wood bending. I prefer a stave with growth rings like you have over really thick ones. You'll have plenty for 60# just go slow...as people say "Doesn't take much osage to make a bow".
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Osage shavings on the deck in the rain? All's I can say is that the pool is gonna look like it is fulla pee! ::)
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Ok Got my design decided on pretty much... not going for such extreme bends in the tips... it may end up a bit thinner out of the fades with some camber on the belly......
what would be the best cross section for the limbs with this design? the back is kind of curved... should i curve the belly too and get a kind of oval cross section or keep the belly flat... the edges will have slight radius no matter what!
Any feedback much appreciated? :o
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The problem with osage and a flat belly is that the earlywood and latewood are two entirely different beasts. If you try to leave it flat, flat then you will likely end up removing too much soft earlywood. Leave it flat almost throughout tillering then round it off some especially near the handle fades.
I personally wouldn't bother heat treating it like a whitewood. I think heat treating is a great way to introduce some fancy shapes and will work very well to correct twist but it won't help with it's compressional properties too much.
So you don't fancy doing a deflex/reflex recurve then?? ;) I don't blame you! ;)
I would also forget the pyramid idea and recurves or at least alter it slightly.
Go for 1 1/2 wide for 10 inches or so out from the fade to midlimb. Then taper into 3/4 wide at the base of the recurves. If you are too narrow near the recurves they may start to twist. Remember bow making is about spotting problems before they happen and you can always remove material once the bow is stable......don't ask how I know this.
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I think your handle is a bit small myself.For inches from fade to fade.It would'nt feel right in my hand but what do I know.You've got enough length to have a 7 to 8 inch
non working handle with four inches in your grip itself.
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I think your handle is a bit small myself.For inches from fade to fade.It would'nt feel right in my hand but what do I know.You've got enough length to have a 7 to 8 inch
non working handle with four inches in your grip itself.
Agreed,with the arrowshelf where it is the heel of your hand would end up in the lower fade.
I would make the handle 4-4 1/2" with 1 1/2"-2" fades like Beadman suggests depending on how you hold the bow and the size of your hands.
No matter how good you tiller it ,if you cant hold the bow right its all for naught.
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By the looks of your stave and handle lines etc.I think you are ok.I think you may have written it wrong on your diagram.Anyway it looks like too that you have enough wood to lengthen your handle too.That's a dandy stave you were sent.Kuddos to the sender.
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I think your handle is a bit small myself.For inches from fade to fade.It would'nt feel right in my hand but what do I know.You've got enough length to have a 7 to 8 inch
non working handle with four inches in your grip itself.
I messed up the diagram, it was likens night last night... I don't know what I was thinking? The handle is 4" (2" either side of center) And the fades are 2" either side of that....
Total of 8" non working... I was tired I guess and messed up my labeling on the sketch???
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I would make the tips thinner than the 5/8ths in your diagram. Why have mass u don't need or want?
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I would make the tips thinner than the 5/8ths in your diagram. Why have mass u don't need or want?
Heres a corrected diagram..... The tips may well end up thinner i'd say 1/2" or less dependent on poundage during tillering? and the handle is 8" non working..
Another detail that i haven't sketched in it the arrowshelf will be more offset getting it closer to center with extra wood to compensate on the opesite side..
ill post a pic on the new thread i'm going to start of the handle design... Here is the corrected Overall design diagram.. Im starting a little oversize to allow for tool error and to make sure i hit my 60# mark.... i can always take more wood off but never put more back on..... O:)
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Ah,now it makes sense.I was wondering if you had really small hands there for a while :laugh:
Looks good,i wish i had a stave like that....or any osage for that matter :(
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I'd leave your handle square like that for niw. Fits on a tiller tree better.
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I can tell you are an engineer, i like the sketches.
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Ideally you want to try and do all the bending around the same time. I would say get twist out first ... then reheat and recurve . Maybe with clamps to hold curve and twist out till cooled . . But . Very fine stave indeed . Props man . And i agree with others here that have said to make it thinner. As a rule . Osage is really tuff stuff and a bow of the same size of say hickory would be much weaket . I would not go so thick . If the stave is 3"thick or more you may even be able o get 2 nice bows out of it . !!!! Also uou should take some wood off of the limbs befor heati g and bending . It will just make it physically easier on you . Lets work with our heads and not our backs . But .... good stave and you seem like you know what your doing bro . Congrates
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Ok, another 6 hours straight making a work bench then Draw knifing, rasping and sanding until i got dizzy... literally i was so dehydrated that i nearly passed out a couple of times.....
But putting in the elbow grease was worth it ;D
I got the stave worked down to my dimensions some progress with the handle and thinned the limbs down to 9/16" give or take a thou of an inch... :P
It's starting to bend against the floor and i feel ready for the bends tomorrow... Got to make a bloody frame to bend it over first unless i can find anything around the house with a nice radius that i can clamp to.....
I'm going to start a new thread for the rest of the build...... and post some pics of progress.... BTW Does anyone know if all the osage dust can do me any harm? i havn't been wearing a mask....its too hot here i tried but couldn't breathe from the heat........?? ???
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Orange boogers for a day or two
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Well Capt if that orange dust is bad then there is a lot of us in trouble , I don't wear a mask nor have I ever seen anyone working with Osage wear a mask ( you should see how much orange dust flies when there are three band saws and two belt sanders going at the same time ) , besides the doctors say fiber is good for you don't they.
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Im really enjoying this thread theres a lot of good info here. I have an osage stave that looks almost identical in quality and size back home and I plan on doing much the same design when I get back. For me my biggest questions have been the layout and I have had a lot of questions answered here. Keep it up I see a self BOM in the works here !
What part of Mexico do you live in? I spent a good part of my childhood growing up in Sonora.
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If you are outside working on it you'll be fine.
Inside is a different story altogether. I do long distance runs (upto 70 miles) over big hills so know what my lungs should feel like - even small amounts affect you but you would never notice in the short term....I always wear a good quality mask indoors and have the fan on if there is no flow of air. I also cut a door into the back wall of my shop so that I could get a really good flow of air through by opening both front and back doors.
I'd also recommend making a proper form and not trying to bodge it. This is a step where you could ruin the whole stave so be careful! ;)
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Im really enjoying this thread theres a lot of good info here. I have an osage stave that looks almost identical in quality and size back home and I plan on doing much the same design when I get back. For me my biggest questions have been the layout and I have had a lot of questions answered here. Keep it up I see a self BOM in the works here !
What part of Mexico do you live in? I spent a good part of my childhood growing up in Sonora.
Glad you Like this Thread / Topic... Me too it turned out great, Loads of Valuable information for sure...
As this topic was really all about the stave and the project has progressed now to the point of almost being a bow i'm moving this project on to a new thread titled - 'Capt's 2nd Bow, Osage - recurved tips'
Please keep following there'll be lots of good info there too... already has been, a whole page debating arrow-shelfs, lots of real savvy chaps chimed in with great info...
BTW I live in Baja California Sur, i've got quite a few friends from Sonora.... I'm English though, from Gods County "Yorkshire"
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Was just going to add a couple things:
1. I've learned over time on stiff handle bows to leave the handle area alone until you've got the bow basically braced. Do you really know what limb you want for upper and lower until that point? I don't like to reduce the width of the handle area until then because if I'm going to do a cut out arrow shelf...it can all depend.
2. Thin tips are IMO where the experienced bowyers stand out. I constantly am working on thinning my tips down. I spend time looking at Mullet's bows and keep telling myself. Get them thinner...get them thinner. But that's stuff to be done near the end of the process.
Enjoying the thread. Cool to see pictures of your area.
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I not plan on keeping the limbs this thick until I get the bends In that way if and any slight splinters lift during bending I have plant of wood left to sand them out....
Bests and thanks for the input...
Capt
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BTW I live in Baja California Sur, i've got quite a few friends from Sonora.... I'm English though, from Gods County "Yorkshire"
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Well "Ey up me duck" youre a long way from home ! Oh and one more thing we wont be upset if you post more pics of the girl in your last thread >:D