Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simson on August 26, 2013, 04:31:52 pm

Title: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (No. 33)
Post by: simson on August 26, 2013, 04:31:52 pm
This bow is 59” ntn, HLD (hollow limb design).
Take down with homemade sleeves, one tip is wrapped, one filed selfnock.
String is 6 strands 452X, thickened at the ears with B50.
A buildalong is here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41217.0.html

Asymmetrical bow, the two parts of the take down are the same length.

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020017_zpsc8b79250.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020048_zps63cdba4a.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020049_zps06693cca.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020047_zps08b1037e.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020046_zpsaff75372.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020057_zpse2f13892.jpg)


(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020006_zps52e64927.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020007_zpsd99fdb46.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020008_zpse3767f9c.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020009_zps19c324f5.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020010_zpse59c93d6.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020011_zpsfff65ef9.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020012_zpsd277f592.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020021_zpsc79ff7bd.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020042_zps3e21aaf7.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020043_zpsec061cfe.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020044_zps9993883e.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020045_zpsf2f26dda.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020023_zps44cffc6c.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020024_zps11455379.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020031_zpsbc601c4d.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020037_zps3e366aeb.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/hollow%20limb%20buildalong/P1020039_zpsc686f363.jpg)

Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: The Gopher on August 26, 2013, 04:47:43 pm
that is unreal!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: BOWMAN53 on August 26, 2013, 04:51:18 pm
that is unreal!

Ditto
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: blackhawk on August 26, 2013, 04:56:17 pm
One question...Why? .....answer is......cus I can...lol ;D .....and you must be sick and bored of straight clean to mediocre wood....your a madman and I like it  ;D
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Zion on August 26, 2013, 04:59:33 pm
that is really an amazing bow. I really enjoyed the build along, learned a lot. Congratz on completing that crazy thing, it turned out to be a really nice bow!!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: autologus on August 26, 2013, 05:01:08 pm
A true master, I never tire of seeing what you can produce.

Grady
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on August 26, 2013, 05:04:15 pm
WOW! That bow is lights out my German comrade'! That may be the coolest bow Ive seen....WOW...your good.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: dwardo on August 26, 2013, 05:07:59 pm
Enjoyed the build-along and this is a perfect end. Amazed you got a bow from that, sublime work.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Dazv on August 26, 2013, 05:08:46 pm
Amazing bow!!! I really enjoyed the build along
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Parnell on August 26, 2013, 07:43:41 pm
Ghaaa!  Jaw dropping.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Strongbow on August 26, 2013, 07:49:44 pm
Wow!  I think we have a bow of the year entry here.  Thanks for the build along on this one.  It was a pleasure to watch a master at work from stave to finished product.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: killir duck on August 26, 2013, 08:04:21 pm
awesome!!!!!!!!!!!! that is some gorgeous wood and you did an amazing job
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Badly Bent on August 26, 2013, 08:16:26 pm
You created a thing of beauty there Simon. Impressive work just getting a bow out of that stave much less one as
beautiful and well crafted as that. Bold move doing a build along on that stave, I think any of us who followed it
would say you did the near impossible.  :)
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Ifrit617 on August 26, 2013, 08:20:38 pm
You created a thing of beauty there Simon. Impressive work just getting a bow out of that stave much less one as
beautiful and well crafted as that. Bold move doing a build along on that stave, I think any of us who followed it
would say you did the near impossible.  :)

+1 most impressive sir, most impressive...

Jon
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Hamish on August 26, 2013, 08:35:32 pm
Serious character in that bow, seriously cool!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Buckeye Guy on August 26, 2013, 08:41:22 pm
Wickedly sweeeeet !
It turned out awesome  !
You got me thinking now and that is an accomplishment for sure !
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: soy on August 26, 2013, 08:52:47 pm
...!... :o
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Gordon on August 26, 2013, 08:57:30 pm
Now there is something you don't see everyday - that is just fabulous.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: cowboy on August 26, 2013, 09:28:02 pm
Gawd! Never seen anything like it.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Dvshunter on August 26, 2013, 09:33:50 pm
Wow man. Just awesome. That's just awesome.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: steve b. on August 26, 2013, 09:35:23 pm
A part of me wanted you to fail at that endeavor because I knew it was something I could not do.  Your success has shattered what is left of my ego.
Very nice work.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Arrowind on August 26, 2013, 09:53:41 pm
 ??? :o :o :o. AMAZING!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: hammertime on August 26, 2013, 10:00:39 pm
Love the character and that wood has just the most awesome color and grain,you are an amazing talent to tackle a project like that-Hammertime
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Polar Bear on August 26, 2013, 10:15:53 pm
Freaking wild.  I followed the build along but I am totally amazed.  That is some skill.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: rps3 on August 26, 2013, 10:21:33 pm
My compliments to the bowyer.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: KellyG on August 26, 2013, 11:11:33 pm
Wow that is incredible.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Lee Lobbestael on August 26, 2013, 11:11:53 pm
Coolest bow I have ever seen...Period
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: VicNova on August 27, 2013, 12:53:33 am
You are truly a master of the craft. Well done, and beautiful bow.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: adb on August 27, 2013, 12:56:04 am
That takes 'character bow' to a whole new level. I can not believe you got a bow outta that piece of wood.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: randman on August 27, 2013, 01:04:15 am
Awesome!.........takes my breath away.....I'm speechless......
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: 4dog on August 27, 2013, 01:13:08 am
Well whoever said " You cant make a silk purse from a sows ear", obviously didnt know what they were talking about, and had never met you!! BRAVO!!!   dude.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: koan on August 27, 2013, 10:19:03 am
Speachless..... Cant believe i missed the biuld along! Im gonna check it out!... Brian
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: BowEd on August 27, 2013, 10:26:46 am
What a bow!!!!!  No tree or limb is safe when your eyes hit it.....LOL.Your skills are out of this world simson.Congrats on the completion of this one.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: robby on August 27, 2013, 12:49:46 pm
That, is a masterful creation, awe inspiring!!!!
Robby
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: dbb on August 27, 2013, 01:25:49 pm
Most have already been said but ...thats Bloody brilliant  :o
And from a piece of wood many would have tossed in the fire.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: danny f on August 27, 2013, 01:41:22 pm
that is unbelievable, well done on another excellent bow.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: simson on August 27, 2013, 04:12:31 pm
Many thanks for this positive response!
It was really a hard struggle and sometimes wanted to through her in an edge.
But now looking at that wood - I like it, too.

And I promise, the next bow will be a conservative design and dead straight and an ease to tiller!!!

Thank you again, you all are too kind.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Sasquatch on August 27, 2013, 05:39:39 pm
That made me smile ear to ear! Awesome bow.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: wood_bandit99 on August 27, 2013, 06:35:09 pm
Nice bow!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: KHalverson on August 27, 2013, 07:53:03 pm
WOW!
absolutely stunning and wicked.
Kevin
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Josh B on August 27, 2013, 09:02:22 pm
Very impressive Sir!  I was wondering how long have you been employing this design?  More to the point, how is the longevity of a hollow limb design compare to oh....say a flatbow design.  I can see some definite advantages to the design, but I would be concerned about the bow splitting itself as the limb flattened out at full draw.  Have you noticed any tendencies or signs of that happening ?  Would it be your opinion that a highly interlocked grain wood is necessary for this design?  I'm very seriously considering giving this a try, so please forgive all the dumb questions.  Lol!  It looks like a very in depth project that I would prefer to learn as much as possible BEFORE attempting.  Which is an entirely new approach for me.  Lol!  Beautifully done sir!  Josh
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: IdahoMatt on August 27, 2013, 10:23:51 pm
That bow is redonkulous.  Well done I have never seen anything like that and I like it  ;D
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: missilemaster on August 27, 2013, 11:48:46 pm
DANG!!!!!!! :o 8)
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Christian Soldier on August 28, 2013, 10:08:18 am
Absolutely awe-inspiring work. Definitely one of a kind. Great work!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Dan K on August 28, 2013, 11:12:46 am
I just couldn't read this post without saying something...just don't know what to say. Wow, amazing work of art Simon! 
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: simson on August 28, 2013, 01:27:58 pm
Thanks again for that positive response!

Very impressive Sir!  I was wondering how long have you been employing this design?  More to the point, how is the longevity of a hollow limb design compare to oh....say a flatbow design.  I can see some definite advantages to the design, but I would be concerned about the bow splitting itself as the limb flattened out at full draw.  Have you noticed any tendencies or signs of that happening ?  Would it be your opinion that a highly interlocked grain wood is necessary for this design?  I'm very seriously considering giving this a try, so please forgive all the dumb questions.  Lol!  It looks like a very in depth project that I would prefer to learn as much as possible BEFORE attempting.  Which is an entirely new approach for me.  Lol!  Beautifully done sir!  Josh

Josh, I will answeryour questions. But sorry for the long replay, cannot say shorter:


1. Employ, results, longevity
I have made about 20 HLD bows so far, it should be more to get funded results. I began the HLD when I remember right 2010. Some bows were gifted away, some sold and some still in my possession. I never heard of a failure, my bows are still in use. I didn’t notice any chrysal or fret, esp. in the ‘belly walls’. Never had a vertically splitting, even in this one where the hollowed out is extreme. A word to the flatting out, this does not mean that the curved limb becomes a flat limb. You can feel the effect when you hold your hands on the belly of the limb while the bow is drawn (of course by another or on the tree).
I came to this design more or less by accident. A stave had very changing crown (depth), so to get it matched I could have narrowed it on the sides. But then the front profile would have a changing width. I decided to give a hollowed out limb (in that section) a try and that was it. It did work!

2. Advantages
The HLD allows a limb with lower mass compared to flat or lenticular cross section by a given draw weight. The lower mass causes a faster return of the drawn limb, more energy on the arrow – a better cast. HLD bows have a different f/d curve compared to flat bows. There is a steeper curve in the beginning of draw and a milder increase at the last inches, because of the flattening out. I will not say there is something like a let off (like in wheelie bows), but the limbs thickness differs while drawing the bow. You know the limb’s depth is much more critical than the width. Double the width and you get a bow with 2x draw weight. But double the depth you will get a bow with 8x the draw weight. I will say, just a little difference in the limb’s depth (flattening) causes a great effect.
Drawing a HLD bow always reminds me on spring steel, the draw is very smooth and comfortable.
In my opinion the limb’s belly has lower stress compared to the flat profile (see my sketch I the buildalong). The flattening out causes a tension horizontally, perhaps this allows more room for the cells to compress vertically.

3. Bow wood
I have done HLD on osage, elm, yew, hazel, golden chain tree, euonymus europaeus (don’t know the English word), maybe some others I don’t remember now …
At least hazel is marginal bow wood, but I had a surprisingly good result with that specific bow (is posted a few weeks ago), so I cannot say HLD needs a highly interlocked grain like elm. But wouldn’t use a wood gnarly like this with dogleg different reflex and so on anymore, this was a challenge.

4. Design
A stave with a high crown is needed. The depth of the limb (measured over the hollow) compared to the width should be in the ratio of 1:3, otherwise it doesn’t flatten out and you lose a great advantage. The curved wall of the limb must be thin enough to work. The two ends of the wall should have no edges and must be sanded round to prevent excessive stress. These are just my thoughts and experience. 

Hope I could help
Seeing forward to your HLD bows guys
cannot wait to share experience!
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: BowEd on August 28, 2013, 01:42:03 pm
Thanks for sharing that simson.Almost sounds easy.....LOL.You must be a mass weight to draw weight ratio bow makin kind of guy.It does make a diff.Your statement of the draw smoothing out towards the end intrigues me.Sometimes my ironwood here will have an elongated furrow on the back either convexed or concave to be adjusted from the belly side.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: dbb on August 28, 2013, 02:01:54 pm
Very interesting,i will have to try this.
I have spotted some lilacs on a deserted plot that i can "steal"  >:D
Btw samson  Euonymus europaeus (spindle, European spindle, common spindle) Del asked about it just the other day.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Josh B on August 28, 2013, 11:05:00 pm
Thank you very much for the detailed answers Simon!  It is greatly appreciated.  If I'm not mistaken, I believe that I have a few Osage limbs that had ant damage in the core buried in my stash somewhere.  This sounds like the best way to make something from them.  Thanks again!  Josh
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Del the cat on September 04, 2013, 06:00:48 pm
Stunning work. That full draw shape is gorgeous.
Del
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Gus on September 04, 2013, 07:53:07 pm
Simon,

Thank You Again, for your work in the Build Along, Explainations and Discusion.
I think it's a very Elagant design.
And I've defiantly added this design to my "Have to Do List"...

-gus
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: bowster on September 11, 2013, 03:48:09 am
Wow, that´s great artistry, best regards from bavaria
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: BowSlayer on September 11, 2013, 11:00:06 am
after looking back over the pics i acctually prefer the filed in knocks, especialy with the horn in the middle. but also a really cool bow.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: ohma2 on September 11, 2013, 01:18:27 pm
been on here a long time and seen alot of great ones, that simson is a show stopper.thanks for the build along and the finish.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Holten101 on September 11, 2013, 01:54:02 pm
Wicked bow:-).....you had me worried when i first saw the stave;-).

Fortunatly I have plenty laburnum (Golden Chain/Rain)...mostly seasoned billets. I am not sure i dare dig into them just yet.

Cheers and thanks alot
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: bowster on November 28, 2013, 02:48:08 am
Wow, that´s one of the most impressive bows, i´ve ever seen, and it offers me a lot of ideas for my own projects. May i ask you, where you live in germany? because i´m german too, from the chiemgau, and if there´s a place, where your bows can be watched live?
With the best regards from germany, Dieter
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: burn em up chuck on November 28, 2013, 06:46:09 pm
   everything has already said, thank you for building and posting this bow

                                                                           chuck
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: burchett.donald on November 28, 2013, 07:28:14 pm
 The most interesting bow I have ever seen. Absolutely beautiful wood and craftsmanship...
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: bubbles on November 28, 2013, 09:16:25 pm
Amazing.
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Crogacht on November 28, 2013, 09:58:15 pm
damnnnn, so nice man
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: bubby on November 29, 2013, 04:05:49 am
Wowser!!!! I think you could make a bow out of knot holes and sawdust, Bub
Title: Re: Golden Chain Tree, take down 33/28 (pic heavy)
Post by: Peacebow_Coos on November 29, 2013, 04:59:48 am
Dang!  Stunner