Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ConorO on July 27, 2013, 11:35:47 am
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Hello to all who inhabit the forums of the Primitive Archer! I just joined these forums yesterday as I am nearing full-on submerging myself in the making of two primitive longbows. And I've come to you all for guidance . . . Last October I cut down a nice white oak and split the trunk in half, and each have in quarters. The staves have been drying in our basement ever since. Being that summer's come and is currently on its way home, I feel that now is the time to begin the intimidating craft, as I have a December 25th deadline . . . So! With that said, I have some questions for those of you who would care to offer me any advice; I would greatly appreciate it.
1) Is White Oak a decent enough choice for one's first primitive longbow?
2) Some of the staves I have may have a small knot here or there, as well as a bend, will these factors damage the integrity of the bow's backing? (Which I intend to keep just wood, no burlap or anything like that, I just wanted a solid piece of wood)
3) I have read about others who shaved down their bow's backing to one solid growth ring in order to maintain integrity, is this good practice?
4) In terms of a hand-rest, I have never shot a bow without a hollowed-out arrow rest which centers the arrow more solidly on the string. Should I attempt to make such a rest, or should I go for over-all integrity and primitive nature with a leather rest wrapped around the solid wood?
- Also, can a primitive longbow, as such, be ambidextrous?
5) In terms of tillering, what advice would you offer a greenhorn?
6) Have you built any devices which aid in the shaving of a stave with a draw knife, allowing for stability and maneuverability?
I can post some pictures of the wood I have to work with later on. I appreciate any help and guidance you all may care to offer, truly. As I progress, I may have some more questions to toss at ya' ;) . . .
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1-yes, unless by long bow you mean English long bow, oak is a tension strong wood likes a rectangular cross section, it could benefit from a heat treatment but that may not be advisable for a first bow
2- no knots shouldn't affect the integrity of the back so long as they are treated right, twist and wiggles in the would are not a problem either but may need corrections in order to bring the string in alignment.
3- with white woods like white oak you should just peel of the bark and that's your back
4- it is possible to do a cut in shelf not something for your first and personally I think they are hideous, if you want a rest you could build one up on the side with leather, really I find no need for this so long as you have feathers not vanes you won't tell the difference. And yes it could be ambidextrous but you would need a rest on both sides.
5- do a build along with tillering, this is where you need the most help.
6-there are things like bow presses if that is what you mean
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1. White oak is fine
2. Unless the knot is large, tiller right through it.
3. White oak is a whitewood, no need to chase a ring, take off the bark and there's your back right there
4. No cut in rest is needed, and in my opinion, they're very ugly
5. Take it slowly, check your bend several ways, like in a mirror, using a straightedge, on the floor, etc.
6. Easist thing to do is clamp a stave down to a railing with a few clamps, if you dont have a shaving horse or a bench vise
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White oak is a great bow wood.. Very tuff stuff. If your stave is even remotely straight and mostly clean(no major knots) you prolly can use basic board bow specs and have a great shooter..check out Ferrets or Georges web sights. There may be plans here on PA also... Brian
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Looks like some good advise has been given !
You can use most any vise to hold your work !
Tell us more about your wood - how long are the pieces ?
Has the bark came off yet ? Any splits, cracks, bug damage, nicks , or other visible damage!
Have fun and yes post pics along the way !!
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I agree with all the good advice given above. I would have to say that I would encourage you to go ahead and heat treat the belly of your bow when you are at the floor tiller/long string stage. White oak really benefits from a toasting of the belly and it isn't hard to do.
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You're getting some very good advice. One thing I would suggest is DON'T cut through any knots while peeling the bark. Work around them. They probably stand up like little pimples, but that will just get the bow some character.
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Very sound advice given so far, ConorO. Post pics as you progress. We'll help you along the way.
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Thank you all so much! Do you guys have any pointers for removing the bark and inner pulp without damaging the fresh layer of white wood beneath? I will post some pictures of my staves later on today!
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I use a drawknife. If you're lucky it will peel off in long strips. If there's knots to work around I use a pocket knife and go slowly.
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I'd try and pry the bark of slowly and carefully if it doesn't want to come off with out the inner bark sticking then I'd scrape the bark off which takes along while. Also once with a honey locust stave I couldn't get the bark to come off so I steamed one end of it and the bark lifted then I slowly pryed the bark off in one piece
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That seems to be the biggest challenge for me, peeling of the bark and pulpy underbark without damaging the surface of the wood. But, here are the staves I currently have to work with.
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Looks like your on your way...gettin a clean back ring usually is the most daunting task for a 1st bow... You got it whooped now! :-).... Brian
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Thank you! I sure hope I can turn this thing out... Do you have any advice for removing the bark and getting a clean back ring? :)
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Conoor, my site may help you. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Hey everyone, I just wanted to give a quick update and ask a question. Firstly, I have finally figured out a safer method for removing the bark from the stave without damaging the wood underneath. I'm removing all the bark save for a very thin layer of the cambium, then I'm just taking a wood rasp and finishing it off. However, I discovered that in one of my staves, there is a bit of a thin split running through the middle of the stave along the grain, does this deem that stave useless?
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Sounds like a check, fill it with superglue, should be fine. In the future sealing the ends will prevent this
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The thing is, I did seal the ends, but I used a mixture of wood glue and water... hmmm. Oh, and Mr. Tsoukalas, I am a big fan of your site!
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I agree, I now cosider George Tsoukalas a friend that I've yet to meet. There is so much help for a beginner on his site. I bet if you stick with it and follow his advice you'll have a fine bow come December!
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Alrighty, the time is fast approaching! It's been a while since I've been on the website... In such a case, I have a few questions for you guys! Firstly, what sort of width and thickness do you guys like to see in your selfbows? Secondly, if the grain of the wood is "snaky", should I follow the grain along the edge of the bow, resulting in a curvy edge? Or, is it safe to straighten the edge? Thirdly, how do you guys typically arrange the length of your bows to the draw length and poundage you're looking for? Are there any general rules of thumb? Thank you guys for all the help!
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Oh! One more thing: Do you think it's feasible to do a relatively comfortable ambidextrous handle on a selfbow?
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this is of no consequence, and i know there are several varieties of each, but that looks like red oak to me, just by the bark.
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I would choose your first bow out of the one farthest left or the one farthest right. They seem like they would be easier
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Oh! One more thing: Do you think it's feasible to do a relatively comfortable ambidextrous handle on a selfbow?
Bend in the handle bow could be ambidextrous... and I'm totally bias toward them. lol
When I got into this I started with my worst staves so when I screwed them up I wasn't as disappointed but I don't tend to learn the easy way.
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So would a bend in the handle stave not have a "fade" then around the handle? And I sanded down a nice stave, and chose it in particular due to the lack of checking. I'll post a picture of the sanded stave tomorrow or Saturday afternoon!
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You NEED to follow any curvature or anything of the grain. If you don't it will fail most likely. I would make a bow out of that something around these dimensions for a 28" draw and 50# or so(never used it before but based off what I know) around 68" long, 1.75"-2" at the fades tapering to 1.25"-1.5" about 8" from tips and then taper down to 3/8" at tips. With an 4" handle and 2" fades. Make the cross section square just for simplicity and thickness doesn't really matter, whatever is the right poundage and good tiller
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If you're going to put in a big arrow shelf, I wouldn't make it ambidextrous >:D >:D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Here's the thing, though... The bow is for my girlfriend. She is left handed... lol. However, her Dad never had anything left handed for her to shoot, so she grew up shooting rifle and a compound bow right handed. I wanted to give her the opportunity to mix it up if she wanted to try shooting left handed once or twice :). Do you think you could do a double rest? One on each side?
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No need to cut in a shelf - if you don't, she can then shoot from either side. You can use a piece of leather for a "floppy-type" shelf on each side if you want.
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Doesn't matter whether someone is right or left handed....more important is whether they are left or right EYE dominant. My daughter is right handed but left eye dominant so she has to shoot left handed so her dominant eye is lined up with the arrow for correct aim.
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This is true... However, what do you guys think of a flatbow design for the sake of simplicity and durability? Also, I'll post a picture of the stave tonight!
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This is the stave I'm going to be using, by the way.
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Good luck and do some searching before you get started there are a lot of picks out there that will give you and Idea. There is info out there you 8) just have to search. 8)
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Thank you! 8) My biggest obstacle is working with the grain... It curves in a few places. I'm curious about how, if I follow the grain, I will end up with a straight-shooting bow with fairly straight limbs. I mean, the grain isn't crazily snaky, but there are some curves there... lol ;)
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Such as this (I pulled this pic off of the internet), these bows don't necessarily follow every curve of the grain, but I assume that they're sound. What do you guys thing?
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Alrighty, I marked-out the bow outline of the stave. When tracing a line down the center along a string, from the center of each nock, I found that the string won't be completely square with the handle. The first line is the center of the handle following the grain, and the second line, either to the right or top, is where the string may fall. It's not largely off, but could this affect the bow's integrity? Thank you for the advice! ;D
Update: I'm going with a 68" overall bow with 2" limbs at full width. The handle is 1" wide and possibly 11/2" deep. The fades are 21/2". The string doesn't fall exactly square with the center of the handle, but is about a 1/4" off. Is this still doable? Also, is it safe to shift a nock (the last 1/4 of the limb or so) in order to square the bow? There is a curve in there, but it's minor. The shift would have to be 1/4" to 1/2", or do you think I could just leave it as is? The string falls closer to the would-be shooting side, anyway. Thanks! :)
P.S. What do you guys recommend in terms of limb shape? For example, if I have a 68" bow with 9" of handle area, That leaves me with 29.5" limbs. For how long would you leave the limbs at full width and taper down to the nocks?
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Conor,
Please do follow the grain...A grain run out on a limb can fail. Your limbs, tips and string tracking will come into play later if so desired. Looking at the lines you've drawn that string angle won't be a problem. With a stave bow you will have some form of character and that's what makes them perfect. Later after roughing out you can make heat adjustments for any alignment. Oak lends itself to bending easily. Looks like you done a nice job removing bark and cambium from pics.
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Go with a straight taper from your two inch fades to half inch tips on us our layout, a pyramid nowhere the length of the limb down to half inch thickness the whole limb to start, that will give you a good starting points, good luck
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What draw length and weight are you looking for?
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Thank you guys! But, I'm looking for, roughly, a 40-50 lbs draw weight and at least a 64" length, but right now I have 68". So, you'd recommend just going from the 2" fades to the .5" nocks gradually, but consistently? Is that considered a pyramid limb?
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Yes that is considered to be a pyramid style bow. Just a strait taper from fades to tips. Making a very elongated triangle shape.
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Now, for tillering, should I reduce the nocks to .5", and thin the limbs to the pyramid style before really removing the wood from the belly of the bow? What about the handle? Do you guys have a systematic way you like to go about it?
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Tips should be 3/8" and with oak I would do a more flatbow shape, I would take 2" from fades no taper for 8" then do a convex taper to 3/8" at tips. Then start tillering
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By convex do you mean, instead of a straight taper, a bit "bowed" out, or rounded? Ha... ::) As for the belly of the bow, for the tiller, can it be flat? Meaning, not rounded but straight across? I have seen several people do this, but read others recommend that you round it...
Update: What do you think of 15" no taper (at 2" wide) after fades and 15" either straight or convex taper to .5" nocks? Also, looking at the bow from the side, what sort of taper are we looking for here? What about 11/18" at the fade to 3/8" at the nock? Can the belly tiller be flat instead of rounded? Also, must the fades, if looking at the handle from the side, be consistent without any deviation on both sides of the handle? By this I mean if my handle is 1 3/4" deep at both the top and bottom, with a custom grip in between, must the 1 3/4" deep handle turn into the 11/18" limb in a space of 2 1/2" along a straight angle, or can there be a little bit of a concave curve in there due to the shaping of the handle?
In addition, what do you guys think of Tung Oil for a finish?
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Here's where I'm at so far. How does everything look? In particular, I'm curious about that knot I took a pic of from the front and side. Do you think this will pose a large problem? Also, with the tiller, can the belly be flat instead of rounded?
Thanks all! :)
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Hello! I've made quite a bit of progress! Please excuse the poor quality of this picture, it was taken with my phone and the only thing available at the time... However, in this photo, I have the bow tillered to 30" with a long string made of paracord. At this length, with the long string, it's pulling about 35#. I am hoping for around 40-45# at 28" when all is said and done. How do you think it's coming along? There's a definite hinge in the left limb right off the fade, but what do you guys think? Any pointers/directions/advice? I'm hoping to have it done by Christmas ;).
Thank you!
*P.S. I can upload better pics this weekend.*
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Hinge on the left and right limb kind of flat. Don't pull beyond your draw weight or she will take a lot of set.
Slow and easy should get it right, haste makes waste.., trust me I have built 10-12 and broke most. :'(
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I suggest you address the hinge that you pointed out in your left limb. I would not pull any further with the long string. I would have gone to a shorter string sooner - a string just a smidge longer than the bow. Then to a low brace after the limbs are bending evenly 6-8 inches. At this point, I would scrape a bit just outside that hinge and try to improve that area and then go to a shorter string. The right limb looks like it will be stiffer and will need to be evened up with the left after you address the hinge. It (right) is not bending badly though. Like has been said "go slow".
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That hinge will likely kill the bow if it's not addressed soon. If you have a 6 ft string that should have a breaking strength of 200lbs, but it is thin in one little spot, and that spot would break around 100lbs, then you have a 6ft string that will break at 100lbs. Same with your bow limbs. A 40lbs hinge on a 50lbs limb is a 40lbs limb. Or a broken limb (ruined at least) if pulled much beyond that. Fixable.
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So what do you recommend? Evening out the rest of the limb?
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I would yes. Like the string analogy above, any additional strands on that string along its length beyond 100lbs is dead weight. Same with the additional wood on your limb above the weight limit of the hingy spot, dead weight. Worse, it forces that spot to do more than its share of the work. Take the extra wood off and even out the work load along the entire limb. The unknown is what the weight limit is on the hinge. A straight edge will allow you to figure that out.
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This makes sense... Thank you guys for all the help and advice, I'll keep you updated!
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Hey guys, I'm making the final bowstring today. The bow measures 68" from tip to tip and 66" from inside of nock to inside of nock. I've heard some people recommend making the string 2" or 3" shorter than the bow itself. What general rule of thumb have you guys found useful for this? Thanks! :)
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Last one I twisted up with double loops I had to make 4 before one fit properly. :) Still cant figure out what happened. Forever I did a loop on top and bowyers knot on the bottom. Last 4 or 5 I have been doing double loops. Someone else can set us both straight on that one.
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A bowyer's knot, eh? That is something I'm "knot" sure I know how to do... duh dum tss! :) I was thinking of doing a flemish twist string.
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The bowyers knot just allows you to adjust the length of the string at the knot. Do a google search on it. Simple knot.
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Isn't it practically the same thing as a timber hitch?
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Yep.
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Hello! I've made quite a bit of progress! Please excuse the poor quality of this picture, it was taken with my phone and the only thing available at the time... However, in this photo, I have the bow tillered to 30" with a long string made of paracord. At this length, with the long string, it's pulling about 35#. I am hoping for around 40-45# at 28" when all is said and done. How do you think it's coming along? There's a definite hinge in the left limb right off the fade, but what do you guys think? Any pointers/directions/advice? I'm hoping to have it done by Christmas ;).
Thank you!
*P.S. I can upload better pics this weekend.*
I think its better than my first one. Get something with a straight edge 3 to 6 inches long and run it across the belly of the bow to look for flat spots. Scrape wood off the flat spots to get the whole limb working. It looks like both limbs are stiff mid limb. Good luck.