Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: toomanyknots on May 18, 2013, 08:31:14 pm
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I just got done resawing like 40 backings out from a couple pieces of 8 quarter hickory flatsaw boards. The grain down the side of the board is very straight, so it is basically makes very good quality quarter sawn hickory backings. Or at least I thought. It is mostly heartwood, and not very dense compared to some all sapwood hickory I have used in the past, but other than that I thought I had some good stuff.... Or so I thought, until I broke my third bow in a row. I thought I had a bad glue up with the first two, but it is definitely the backings. All garbage, spent like 110 bucks and had to deal with getting talked to like crap by the guys at the lumber yard for simply wanting to look at the boards instead of just picking up one. My woodslicer blade is shot after resawing all the hickory too. All bows broke before I could even get a decent long string tiller going. I am so pissed it is not even funny. ;D So I guess I have to find something for backings now. I gotta sell one of my guitars to do so, which I am not super happy about, so I really wanna find a piece or something that will work. I don't know where I am going to find any, as the place I went to, most of the hickory I was looking at looked the same, and both of the boards I got were garbage. I have no idea why they were so weak in tension. The hickory I have had in the past that was great, was all white sapwood and pretty dense. I still have a piece of the stuff, bends like rubber. This stuff I bought recently starts to make little cracking sounds as soon as you bend it a little bit. Arg. I am thinking of trying a piece of 6 quarter flat sawn ash or maple ( with straight grain down the side) but I really don't know what to look for.
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maple is probably a safe bet, and i would imagine that ash would be a decent bet as well. white oak doesn't break easy but is definitely not super strong in tension. How about bamboo? you can buy 25 for about what you spent and they all are like 1.75 inches wide by like 6 ft long and i doubt you would have any issues with bamboo. With that in mind the purchase of bulk bamboo would run you around 6$ per backing, so if that's worth it to you then maybe consider that? Up to you.
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white oak doesn't break easy but is definitely not super strong in tension.
It's not? Since when?
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um, well i should say its not as strong as hickory, unless I'm mistaken... could be that, I've been known to be wrong time and again... I guess i should point out that Bryce has a bow that has been overdrawn to 36 inches(or somewhere crazy over what its supposed to be) and it hasn't broken. It's white oak and its like what 60 lbs? something like that. So I guess it wont break, idk it's not as good as hickory(or at least that was my impression)
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maple is probably a safe bet, and i would imagine that ash would be a decent bet as well. white oak doesn't break easy but is definitely not super strong in tension. How about bamboo? you can buy 25 for about what you spent and they all are like 1.75 inches wide by like 6 ft long and i doubt you would have any issues with bamboo. With that in mind the purchase of bulk bamboo would run you around 6$ per backing, so if that's worth it to you then maybe consider that? Up to you.
Thank you for the links Ionicmuffin, I appreciate it!
um, well i should say its not as strong as hickory, unless I'm mistaken... could be that, I've been known to be wrong time and again... I guess i should point out that Bryce has a bow that has been overdrawn to 36 inches(or somewhere crazy over what its supposed to be) and it hasn't broken. It's white oak and its like what 60 lbs? something like that. So I guess it wont break, idk it's not as good as hickory(or at least that was my impression)
Ya, I have some quartersawn white oak that is garbage too, ;D. Might be better than this hickory, but it is pretty brittle too. Haven't tried it on a bow yet, but bend tests are not good. What are they deep frying this wood anymore? I know it ain't the humidity, it is like a sauna it is so humid over here right now. Man, I am so tired of driving like 100 miles to look through a hundred boards and find like two, and then they still don't work.
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Unless I understould you wrong I think you sawed down the wrong end of the board, You want it 1/4 sawn with the grain runnng down the back of the board not the side of the board. You can almost ignore the side of a board if the lines are running straight down the back.
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Unless I understould you wrong I think you sawed down the wrong end of the board, You want it 1/4 sawn with the grain runnng down the back of the board not the side of the board. You can almost ignore the side of a board if the lines are running straight down the back.
No, I sawed the straight grain on the side, it was flatsawn.
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so you turned it into rift sawn lumber?
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um, well i should say its not as strong as hickory, unless I'm mistaken... could be that, I've been known to be wrong time and again... I guess i should point out that Bryce has a bow that has been overdrawn to 36 inches(or somewhere crazy over what its supposed to be) and it hasn't broken. It's white oak and its like what 60 lbs? something like that. So I guess it wont break, idk it's not as good as hickory(or at least that was my impression)
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White oak will break AFTER hickory in a lot of cases. I have some white oak backing I am picking up from a mill very soon, hickory is not impossible for me to get, but the oak is a heck of a lot closer.
VMB
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so you turned it into rift sawn lumber?
Yes, upon the advice of folks on here, I resawed the straight grain sides. So I guess it would of been some rift and some quarter sawn. I would of got like 70 or more backings for 110 bucks if the wood wasn't crap.
White oak will break AFTER hickory in a lot of cases. I have some white oak backing I am picking up from a mill very soon, hickory is not impossible for me to get, but the oak is a heck of a lot closer.
VMB
What I am trying to figure out, is how to be sure it is good stuff before you buy it, whether oak or hickory. I can find decent quarter sawn white oak everywhere, but the piece I bought ended up being brittle and easy to break. I am not sure it will be suitable for even a light bow. And the hickory I bought wouldn't even hold to floor tiller a 40 lb-ish bow. I mean it is horrible. I didn't even think to bend test it, as I have always heard hickory is great in tension, and have always had nothing but the best results with it. I have had no problem using hickory for warbow backings in the past. This stuff wouldn't make a kids bow. Is denser better in both oak and hickory? I mean, will denser oak be more tension strong? The darker colored white oak seems to be not good in tension.
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yeah, density is what im thinking you will have to look for, super dense pieces with as little early wood as you can get.
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White oak breaks after hickory.
Edit* hey Brian beat me too it ;D
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Toomanyknots, I'm quite puzzled as to why you have 'brittle' or weak white oak and hickory. These two woods are about THE best woods in tension! Of course there can always be one board that is just iffy due to fungus or what else. But it appears you've used several boards, from various suppliers, all without any positive effects? I'm sorry to say this mate but it sounds like it could be a problem YOU are creating! Hickory and oak are difficult to mess up for a lumber yard. Especially in the USA, close to the source, the wood should be properly handled and properly dried.
Could you post a few pictures maybe? One of the end grain so we can see the rings, and one of the face of the board. Perhaps the grain isn't as straight as you thought? Perhaps it has some discoloration that could be due to fungus? I don't know, but I'm having a hard time believing that you bought weak wood in several occasions with several species and several suppliers. How did you determine the wood to be weak, low density and brittle? Try to make a simple selfbow / boardbow first and rule out several things. Do a bend test and measure the SG accurately. Measure temperature and humidity of the room where you store the wood to rule out a less than perfect MC of the wood.
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Might i suggest just cutting down a tree and starting from staves? I have had great luck with that ;)
Greg
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Toomanyknots, I'm quite puzzled as to why you have 'brittle' or weak white oak and hickory. These two woods are about THE best woods in tension! Of course there can always be one board that is just iffy due to fungus or what else. But it appears you've used several boards, from various suppliers, all without any positive effects?
Like I said, it was 2 boards of hickory from one supplier. I have never had a problem with hickory before. And one piece of white oak (which, like I said, I haven't even made a bow out of yet,). Both are very brittle and break easily when bend testing just a backing. Just to confirm this yall, is sapwood hickory better than heartwood hickory? It seems to me to be better?
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Might i suggest just cutting down a tree and starting from staves? I have had great luck with that ;)
Greg
lol ;D
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I think DarkSoul may be on to something with the fungus I have seen logs set out for months at a time at a sawmill around here before being cut. A lot of times the sawmill doesn't handle their wood for the purpose of bow building. Logs can set outside a long time for furniture use or even pallet use or that's how it seems around here. Another thing if bugs get into the log before its sawn and the lumber isn't kiln dried they can be in your board. I think that's another reason the kiln dry wood. But I'm sure you would have seen bug damage so that's kinda out.
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The only bad hickory I've ever seen for bow wood was a 12" diameter hickory log that was given to me. It sat on the ground for a week or so before it was squared off and put it into a dry garage for 2 years to dry. It was gonna be used for a mantle in a new house but a better choice was found. After I got the log I had it resawn into backing strips and bow blanks. The first piece I used for a backing strip on an osage bow failed by breaking straight across the grain. After that I studied the wood carefully and found some slight discoloration and the woof had a "powdery" feel to it. Every bit of this wood was used for kindling for our wood stove.
This is also when I called Tite-Bond to see if I could remove the backing(belly wood was still good) and they told me to heat it to 150deg(F) and the glue would release.
The only way you can be sure a bow stave, board or tree stave, is good it to cut it and season it yourself. That way you know it was handled properly for bow wood.
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The only bad hickory I've ever seen for bow wood was a 12" diameter hickory log that was given to me. It sat on the ground for a week or so before it was squared off and put it into a dry garage for 2 years to dry. It was gonna be used for a mantle in a new house but a better choice was found. After I got the log I had it resawn into backing strips and bow blanks. The first piece I used for a backing strip on an osage bow failed by breaking straight across the grain. After that I studied the wood carefully and found some slight discoloration and the woof had a "powdery" feel to it. Every bit of this wood was used for kindling for our wood stove.
This is also when I called Tite-Bond to see if I could remove the backing(belly wood was still good) and they told me to heat it to 150deg(F) and the glue would release.
The only way you can be sure a bow stave, board or tree stave, is good it to cut it and season it yourself. That way you know it was handled properly for bow wood.
Ha, ya, I got a stave I gotta remove the backing from now too, ;D. I hope mine goes as well as yours! I don't know, when bend testing a nice uniform 1/8" thick backing of this hickory, it just start cracking when barely even bending it. I tried all 40 or so backings, 6 of em didn't start "cracking" when bending em slightly. I would take any red oak any day over this stuff. I still ain't gonna use one of those 6 backings on a bow though. Heres some photos I posted in a previous thread:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1757.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN1757.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1762.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN1762.jpg.html)
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I think DarkSoul may be on to something with the fungus I have seen logs set out for months at a time at a sawmill around here before being cut. A lot of times the sawmill doesn't handle their wood for the purpose of bow building. Logs can set outside a long time for furniture use or even pallet use or that's how it seems around here. Another thing if bugs get into the log before its sawn and the lumber isn't kiln dried they can be in your board. I think that's another reason the kiln dry wood. But I'm sure you would have seen bug damage so that's kinda out.
I was thinkin something like that, but it really doesn't show any signs of anything like that. It just plain sucks. The only thing is it is a little more porous and lighter than normal, but other than that, it is still normal awesome smelling hickory. :o
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I was thinkin something like that, but it really doesn't show any signs of anything like that. It just plain sucks. The only thing is it is a little more porous and lighter than normal, but other than that, it is still normal awesome smelling hickory. :o
You wouldn't necessarily see anything without a microscope. Fungus is often well established before you can see it.
Fungus would account for it losing strength and density, as it munches the wood.
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I was thinkin something like that, but it really doesn't show any signs of anything like that. It just plain sucks. The only thing is it is a little more porous and lighter than normal, but other than that, it is still normal awesome smelling hickory. :o
You wouldn't necessarily see anything without a microscope. Fungus is often well established before you can see it.
Fungus would account for it losing strength and density, as it munches the wood.
Hmm, so fungus will make the wood lighter? Well, that gives me one thing to go on so far, look for good solid dense stuff! Thank ya. Here are a couple pics to compare, the backing on the left is good quality, like rubber wood. The other one is the firewood:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/hickbackcrap1.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/hickbackcrap1.jpg.html)
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The white sapp wood on the right board is what you want. If you notice on the left board, on the left side theres a strip of white, that makes me think the rest of it is just light heartwood. now i could be wrong, but thats my thoughts on it. Sapp wood is better, heart wood is more brittle but it can still make a bow.
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The white sapp wood on the right board is what you want. If you notice on the left board, on the left side theres a strip of white, that makes me think the rest of it is just light heartwood. now i could be wrong, but thats my thoughts on it. Sapp wood is better, heart wood is more brittle but it can still make a bow.
The left backing is actually all white sapwood, my camera probably just makes it look weird. The right backing has a strip of sapwood on the side, and is mostly heartwood like you said. Ya, the hickory I have used up till now was all white sapwood. On another note, after bend testing some of that white oak I got, it doesn't seem all that bad I guess. It actually seems somewhat usable. I just remember comparing it to the hickory I was using at first, and there was no comparison at the time. I guess sometimes my memory can kind of over exaggerate things, ;D. It is just such an ugly color though, like a cat puke gray, or something. It just wouldn't look near as good as a white hickory backing on a bow. Maybe I'll try staining a bow I use it on, or try an oil finish like tung oil, that usually makes everything nice and pretty... 8)
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Well seasoned, unaffected hickory should feel dense and be hard to scrape. Check out your next board by scraping it with a knife. If there is any discoloration, reject it. You want only sapwood, too.
See if you can find a quality wood workers supplier for hickory. I bought a 8/4"x6"x10' hickory board a few years ago from a semi-local lumber supplier for about $30 and got lots of very good backing strips out of it. I cut it to a 6' piece and a 4' piece and resawed the 6' piece into backing strips.
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One thing I'm beginning to notice on Hickory, especially on my 14 broken hickory board bows...and this assumes that backing grain should be the same as flatbow grain (I have no experience with backing)...is that examining the side in addition to the prospective belly or back tells you where it's going to break. Based on the diagram on TBB II, page 35, plus my very limited experience with a pile of broken hickory board bows, the side grain has proven to be very important.
So I guess I am suggesting looking at the side grain as well. Perhaps you've already examined it...if not, a non-parallel side grain MAY explain why it keeps breaking on you (I keep thinking of page 35)...especially if you see a difference in side grain orientation from one side to the other--there's something weird going on in the middle of that board.
Every break of my 14 bows was along the angled side grain. I spent at least an hour in Owl Lumber everytime I search for a piece of hickory...luckily for me they appreciate my fickleness and sometimes even help me choose a board when they have some spare time. Sometimes I have to leave without a board.
Hickory is some incredibly tough stuff so it's really weird that it keeps breaking on you. Keep us posted to see if you cracked the nut on choosing the right board, heaven knows I can use that advice!
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There is definately something wrong....
I suspect some sort of damage to the wood. Without seeing and feeling it it's hard to tell what.
The heartwood of hickory is still plenty good enough for backing as long as the grain is running correctly.
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Since the fungus factor got mentioned, I was wondering about a couple elm sapling/small trees that died in my backyard during last year's drought. They are still standing--one dropped its leaves at the end of July last year, the other didn't bud-out this spring. Are they firewood or bow wood?
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Since the fungus factor got mentioned, I was wondering about a couple elm sapling/small trees that died in my backyard during last year's drought. They are still standing--one dropped its leaves at the end of July last year, the other didn't bud-out this spring. Are they firewood or bow wood?
I would think either bugs or something got to em by now, but they might be ok?
There is definately something wrong....
I suspect some sort of damage to the wood. Without seeing and feeling it it's hard to tell what.
The heartwood of hickory is still plenty good enough for backing as long as the grain is running correctly.
Ya, I have a bit left of one board, enough for like 4 or so belly laminates worth. But I am wondering if I should even try it on a belly. I broke all the backings when bend testing them, and I didn't even bend them that far. They were all less than an 1/8" thick. They just started making cracking noises as soon as I bent them a tiny bit. At first I had like 6 out of forty that didn't break, but then I tested them again, they all blew too. I am very disappointed.