Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ionicmuffin on May 13, 2013, 10:43:36 pm
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So i have an 8 foot board of ipe. its 1" actual thickness and 5 1/2" actual width. First of all, could i get 8 pieces from this if i use a thin bandsaw blade to cut it in half thickness wise? I'm thinking 4 1 1/4" wide pieces that i can back with bamboo. so total 8 blanks that would be a tiny bit under 1/2 inch thick and a little over 1 1/4 inches wide. I was thinking of just leaving them 72 inches so i can make a longbow if i wanted to or whatnot(in which case maybe i should keep one section of the four at total thickness.) Also, id like to back most of them with bamboo, so for instance, ill be working on a bow at some point for a friend that's going to be probably 66 inches long, it would be bamboo backed and would pull 60-70 lbs at 32 inches. I know i would be putting a handle riser in, so what kind of thickness would be desirable for the bamboo and the ipe? The ipe seems to be in good condition, the ends have a few cracks that run about 3 inches deep at the most, the grain is nearly perfect all the way down the board. There are no knots as far as i can see, but there are a few spots that swirl that are very tiny. The color is a bit light but all the other boards that were dark had tons of cracks all over them. The lines on the first one are the ring orientation.
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Anybody have any tips, ideas, help?
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Don't be too impatient, my friend ;)
Your plan for a layout to cut the board sounds fine. ½" thickness is pretty versatile in a BBI. However, if you want to make true deep bellied ELBs, which is a good design for a BBI, you'll need more thickness in the heavier weights. You can add a center lam (core) for that, for instance with a nice contrasting wood. You could also leave one or two slats full thickness (1¼" x 1") for these higher draw weights. You can always cut them to half the thickness later on. No need to process the entire board now, if you're not sure what to make.
Ring orientation is pretty irrelevant in ipé, as long as a backing is applied. I would try to avoid 100% quartersawn, as any small pin knot will then be along the entire width of the belly of the bow - not the strongest orientation.
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Why does it look like the grain is running sideways on the 2 pic ?
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quater sawn? Its strait as ever and really looks like a good candidate for any number of bows.
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he means quarter sawn backing muffy
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i am confused...
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Looks like planar marks in the second picture. The second picture is the face of the board not the end grain correct?
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correct, its the face of the board.
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There is no point in cutting the whole board up unless you know EXACTLY what you are going to make from it. Just cut off the section you want to use now.
Quarter sawn refers to how (what orientation) the board was cut from the tree. Do a google search with the words flat sawn, bias and quarter sawn to get some pictures ;)
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so i plan on gluing up soon, but my issue is this, What glue should i use? I was considering unibond until i saw the price! im not sure if i should go with tight bond 3 or something. Maybe epoxy? what do you guys think?
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Rip off one piece that measures 1¼" wide (and 1" thick). Turn it 90 degrees and cut it again, making sure to waste as little as possible in the kerf (using a thin blade). You'll get two pieces of each 1¼"x½" which is a good place to start. Leave the rest of the board intact. Use the surface you just cut as the belly, so you'll glue the smooth surface which now forms the outside faces of the board. Lightly sand with 80 grit sandpaper. Select and cut the 70" of length with the best grain or best thickness. Prep bamboo. Glue together using Titebond3 (or TB2) and wrap in bike inner tubes, mummy style. Clamp into a mild reflex/deflex shape using three clamps and a few blocks of wood. This will give you a bendy handle bow, up to maybe 50 pounds or so.
If you succeed this style of bow, you can make more intricate and more complex designs, such as:
- adding a (tapered) core of 1/8"
- adding a power lam of 18" x 1/8" and a stiff glued on handle block.
- Shorter design and more curves.
Regarding the 'quartersawn' issue... If the rings run diagonally, like the black lines you drew in the end grain shot, that will be great. Whatever you cut the board, all laminations will continue to run diagonally, or bias ringed or rift sawn. That would be my preference. However, if you end up with a perfectly quartersawn board in ipé (or any wood for that matter), any small knot or pin will run across the entire width of the belly of the bow, since knots run radially in a tree trunk from the pith outwards. This means that a tiny pin knot, unimportant in a ring chased stave, can be devastating in a quartersawn belly, as it will seriously weaken the belly since it spans the entire belly.
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so i plan on gluing up soon, but my issue is this, What glue should i use? I was considering unibond until i saw the price! im not sure if i should go with tight bond 3 or something. Maybe epoxy? what do you guys think?
I've used TB3 with ipe on: flatbows, tri-lams, ELBs and warbows up to 110# with zero failures. Make SURE your surfaces are smooth, flat and clean for gluing. I often wipe the ipe with alcohol just before glue up to remove any surface oils. TB3 is cheap, readily available, and cleans up with water.
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Thanks guys, this clarifies a lot for me. Ill be ordering some bamboo soon and hope to purchase a set of calipers(cheap) and maybe a moisture meter(cheap) to see where the board is at. that also reminds me, what MC is good for ipe?
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I have found little use for my moisture meter. Waste of money IMHO. Ipe is no different than any other wood... 8-10% MC is ideal.
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how do i go about figuring out what mc its at? should i build a hot box? I know that ive had issues with set before, part of it is probably the mc of the board. I live in Washington state, the RH here is like 55-65% indoors and out doors it can be upwards of 70 or so...
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In my opinion, both a moisture meter and a hot box for drying wood are useless items. You can spend your money on much better things.
Buy a cheap thermometer and humidity meter. Measure the RH and temperature for a few days straight and calculate the average. A "wood EMC table" (google it) will tell you at what moisture content (MC) the wood is. With a room temp and 55-65% RH, you'll end up around 10-12% moisture. This is above ideal for most woods, but ipé is pretty forgiving in its MC. Bamboo likes a lower MC. However, in that climate you're likely to suffer more set in for instance hickory and ash; two woods that prefer a lower MC of around 6-8%.
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Alright. Ill forgo the hotbox and see about those two tools you talked about, also, ive heard that for ipe sealing it can be a pain, but ive also heard that deft works well with it even if its for the first coat. What do you think?
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I've only used varnish on ipé, with good results. Since ipé is basically not porous at all, most oils will not be readily absorbed. That may not be a problem if you apply thin coats, but run a test on a scrap to see how you should apply your desired finish and if you like the finished product.
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ok, now as for the calipers vs the thermometer, which would you deem more important?
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A caliper costs 12 USD from Dealextreme(dot)com. The thermometer/humidity meter may be as little as five bucks. I don't know your financial situation, but I'd start with the humidity meter.
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If you are really interested in the moisture content you could look into the oven dry method. All you need is an oven and a scale but it will give more accurate of a moisture content than a moisture meter. The only drawback is that the less accurate scale you have the less accurate the calculated moisture content will be.
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In my opinion, both a moisture meter and a hot box for drying wood are useless items. You can spend your money on much better things.
Buy a cheap thermometer and humidity meter. Measure the RH and temperature for a few days straight and calculate the average. A "wood EMC table" (google it) will tell you at what moisture content (MC) the wood is. With a room temp and 55-65% RH, you'll end up around 10-12% moisture. This is above ideal for most woods, but ipé is pretty forgiving in its MC. Bamboo likes a lower MC. However, in that climate you're likely to suffer more set in for instance hickory and ash; two woods that prefer a lower MC of around 6-8%.
+1
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Thanks guys, well I bought the bamboo, I bought the thermometer and I will probably just use my TB2. I cant afford the calipers atm and I will have to wait to get a scale for weighing things like arrowheads and other stuff. So basically i should make a bendy handle with the handle 1 1/4 inches and tapers to 1/2 inches at the tips? I'm thinking this would be the best way to keep the handle from being over stressed and also it would mean I don't need to make the handle any thicker. Do you guys think that would be a nice birthday gift? I'm giving it to my friend that I've known since four, hes asked for one a while ago.
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Hit local estate sales. You can pick up a weight watcher scale for a couple bucks. I see them all the time.
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Ok, so a new question arises, i really dont want the handle to be 1 1/4 inches wide, so i was thinking, maybe i could just put a powerlam in between the bamboo and the ipe. My goal in doing this would be to make the handle section stiffer thus allowing me to reduce the width of the handle section down to about 1 inch total, i also thought, maybe i could reduce a tiny bit where the arrow will be paradoxing, if i do so i would probably need it to be a tiny bit thicker at this point than the rest of the handle, in total i dont see this being any less than 3/4 inch at that point, although i would be willing to keep it up towards 7/8 or even just stay at 1", what do you guys think? bad idea for first go? i still plan to keep the handle bendy but i want to keep it thinner.
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have you got little teeny tiny hands >:D serioslly that isn't very big I think my 12 yr old grandson has one with a inch and a quarter grip, you can just leave the wood deeper in the grip area but you end up with the same mass
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its not the mass I'm worried about but how much more paradox the arrow will be doing when passing over the bow.
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stiil not a problem, just have to get the proper spined arrows for the bow
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this is true, but still, do you ever not want to have a high paradox or do you just not care too much? I've seen a bow with 1/2 inch transitions into fades that are as wide as what I'm talking about, the handle was super comfortable.
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the narrowest I usually go is 1" at the pass, look Graham I'm not telling you not to do it, its' your bow, I'd just like to see you employ the K.I.S.S. system for awhile till you get some bows under your belt and maybe less fire wood, most of my bows don't even have rest's and I don't worry about paradox
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Ok, I'm causing agitation, so what I'll do is just go with the basic bow like people have been saying...sorry sometimes I really do push peoples buttons. By the way, what does K.I.S.S. mean?
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keep it simple stupid, not pushing any buttons, you just want to do more advanced bows than your ready for, jmho
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Actually, a powerlam of maybe 3/16" thickness and 18" long is a method I prefer to keep the handles of my BBIs from popping off, while still adding the necessary stiffness. The powerlam allows you to narrow the handle a bit, while you can still easily create a bendy handle. The debate on how narrow to make a handle, is something I don't need to comment on. That's mainly a matter of taste. But if you prefer to make the handle narrower than 1¼", the powerlam is the way to go. It's actually not that difficult to make, as long as you have a beltsander. The powerlam allows you to use an ipé belly or a uniform thickness of about ½", without the need to leave it much thicker in the handle.
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darksoul is correct, but they can be tricky if you haven't done a lot of glue ups, getting the feathered edge is the easy part of a power lam, getting a good glue line is another matter
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I think I know how to get a good glue line(but i know I've been wrong before) a trick I learned was to take the pieces you are going to laminate and see how well they fit before glue up(dry clamp method) then if everything seems to mate well you can go ahead and glue up and should run into little or no problems. I've done this with a layered handle riser I made for the board bow trade(still working on that) The glue lines on it are as perfect as I've seen(not being prideful, just no glue seen at all, just the board on board.)
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it's a little different putting a power lam between the boo and the epe, just saying ::)
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true i guess, anybody wanna do a build along ;D
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do some research graham i'm shure someone already has
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true, ill check that out. Ill report back when i find out.
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cool, like I said i'm not telling you not to do anything, I just want you to get a shooter
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Yeah, well ive just got through looking at some build along's, so far it looks like putting a powerlam needs a large enough clamping force on and around the powerlam to keep it tight against the bamboo and ipe. Looks like the powerlams are generally 1/4 an inch or even 3/8 thick at the middle, I wouldn't need too much just enough to get the handle to stiffen, then reduce the sides till its bending well again. When my bamboo gets here ill bring my materials over to a guys house(my dads partner in law) He has so many tools and knows how to use them and told me if i need help or tools i can ask him. Ill be using his bandsaw for resaw on the ipe strip i need. He also has belt sanders and other tools, so hopefully i can get all the work i need for tapers and thickness done at his workshop.
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be carefull not to dent the boo, I suggest the you use tube strips, if you go to a bike shop and ask nice for there old tubes you'll prolly get them for free
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oh no worries, ill scrap my old bikes tubes, and maybe even my sisters bikes tires because shes like too big for the bike, although i guess i should take a trip down to the shop so i don't ruin like some good tubes.
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Have you seen this build along? (http://home.planet.nl/~veen0804/paginas/buildalong-nick.html) It should have been posted on Tradgang originally, but I can't find it now. You don't understand any of the language (although Google Translate might help), but the large number of pictures makes it self explanatory.
You don't need a ton of clamping pressure if the powerlam is of appropriate thickness and with a good tapering to a feather edge. I just use bike inner tubes myself, with success. The powerlam needs to be thinner than 3/8". I prefer around 3/16", but 1/4" is fine as well. Make sure the taper is very gradual and even.
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thanks for the link, it looks as if even he has a small gap from power lam to the two meeting pieces of ipe
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Just posted a how-to on making power lams. It's over in the How To section. Hope this link works: https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,39970.0.html
c.d.
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I recognize the work shop, isn't that dutchwarbow on tradgang, whoever it is he builds a wicked bow
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Yes, that's him. I just can't find this build along on Tradgang anymore. I must have been searching the wrong queries... It's a pity he hasn't been building bows lately.
Ionicmuffin, there is indeed a small gap between the layers. In my opinion this does not need to happen. Make the powerlam fade smoother and more gradual. Also, the bamboo backing should be thin enough (max 1/8") so it flexes readily along the contours of the powerlam.
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I hahen't been on TG in a long time but I always liked his posts, built some sweet bows
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OK, so the bamboo came today, 100% strait in terms of no curve from side to side. It is about 1/4 inch thick and there is plenty of room for the bow. I don't know exactly how much draw i want to make it for. I was thinking no more than 30". What do you guys think in terms of total bow length for a bendy handle bow that I would like to come out to about 50 at 28 and a whatever at 30. I was thinking because it will be bendy handle that 64 inches wouldn't be so bad. I don't want it to be super short and i want a pretty nice draw for a decently short bow. I can make the ipe strip wider if need be and it can be a higher draw weight. also lets talk designs. what is a good design for a R/D bow like this? with a bendy handle. Here are the three i think that would be alright although im not sure which would work.
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so I was looking around doing some digging around. I found that there are very few bend in the handle bows of BBI so I think this will be interesting. I was wondering if BBI's are really that strong. Apparently 1/2 inch thick at the handle by 1" wide is enough to make a 55# at 28 inch bow with a total length of 64 inches.
Im also trying to find out what length and what design to go with for a R/D bendy handle.
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Non of the above!
Do not narrow the handle more than 1/8 either side if you want it to bend. If you put a powerlam of more than 3/16th thickness the handle won't bend. If I was going to use a powerlam in a bendy handled bow then it would be 1/8th thick in the middle - definately no more. Remember that to double the weight of a bow increase the thickness by 1/8ths of the total.
As for design just make the center section 1 inch wide for around 4 inches either side of the handle then straight line taper to the tips. Make the tips 1/2 inch wide to start with. K.I.S.S. is one of the best accronims there is! 1 inch width is enough for 80 -90 lbs draw weight with an ipe belly. I've made quite a few bendy handled bbi's and for upto 60lbs they are only 3/4 wide at the handle tapering to less than 3/8ths nocks. I'm not suggesting that you make yours this narrow more just giving you a heads up....if you make your 1 1/4 wide it's going to be super thin...and slow ;)
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muffy I have a BBI in my rack, it's 1 1/8" wide straight and tapers to 3/8" nocks bendy handle and it's thin, and pulls about 74#, listen to mikekeswick he's got plenty of experience with this style bow
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Is there crappy ipe out there, that would produce lesser results? Like, in other words, how some osage is better than others, and you can make a narrower bow with good osage, but some osage is less dense and will make a wider bow that takes more set (which I guess would mean it should of been wider, :) ). I know they say the darker ipe is better. That is funny, as I find the darker osage better too. I am thinking the darker it is, the denser, as my official scientific explanation is that "Avery thang is crammed together", which makes it darker. ;D Like denser I mean.
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i think that is is one of the darker boards i saw, there was some light browns but this is pretty dark maybe not super dark but its dark.
Ok, so then how long should it be if i start at 1" wide and taper down to 1/2 inch? Like i said, id like to get 30 ish inches of draw.
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at the start of this post you said you wanted a 32" draw so you might as well go with an ELB, i'd check out the warbow page or del's blog
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i know i said that, However, i was trying to be cautious for my friends sake, but i think it would be fine to go 30 inches, I doubt hes got a draw over 29 because he was shooting mine and didnt overdraw on it. Im thinking i will just give arrows that max out at the max draw for the bow. and ill tell him to make sure nobody else draws it without an arrow on the string. im not too worried, and since the first stave bow i made was only 64 inches long i think i have room for the ipe to be 64 as well. the one ive got has been drawn to 30 and its fine. the fact that its hickory and only 1 1/4 inch at the VERY widest but in reality is more like 1" for most of the bow it has around 2.5 inches or maybe 3 of set, and my mc content in my house for wood is around 9% so thats excessive for hickory. So my guess would be that the bow will be fine if i make it close to my other bows just being careful and all.
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well do what ya want
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at the start of this post you said you wanted a 32" draw so you might as well go with an ELB, i'd check out the warbow page or del's blog
YES! i totally agree
72''ntn 4" handle section. 2.5" long fades 1.25" at the end of the fades. then taper to .5" durable, easy to tiller bow.
best results IMHO
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at the start of this post you said you wanted a 32" draw so you might as well go with an ELB, i'd check out the warbow page or del's blog
YES! i totally agree
72''ntn 4" handle section. 2.5" long fades 1.25" at the end of the fades. then taper to .5" durable, easy to tiller bow.
best results IMHO
yep ;)
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what kind of weight would i end up with?
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you could get a draw weight that you prolly cant draw >:D, you could easy get 70#, how heavy does it need to be
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not more than 60#@ 30ish.
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Ok, so i have my bamboo to close to an 1/8 thickness and the ipe is very close to 1/2 inch. Only thing i need to do is glue up after getting the bamboo to even thickness. The guy who helped me get the thickness thought it was so thin already that he didn't want to try to take anymore off. But hes been very helpful because hes got a huge belt sander and a big bandsaw, made everything easier lol. Ill show pics sometime today. I plan on glue up today. My only concern is this. The bandsaw left marks on the ipe. We did a lot of sanding to get it to a nice almost smooth surface, but there are a few points where the sawblade made the marks that are still there, i would imagine this wont be an issue if i use epoxy right? if most of the surface is flat would tb2 or 3 work or would those tiny "gaps" effect the glue up?
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What marks did the bandsaw leave? Burn marks, grooves, holes...?
Titebond glues do NOT tolerate gaps. A gap will always be just that - a gap. Even if you fill it with epoxy it will not be as strong as the wood, but epoxies are more forgiving than titebond.
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its the kind that's like a very small bump, it is a gap and so i did buy some epoxy, i figured that JB woodweld would work fine so i picked up some of that.