Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: TatankaOhitika on May 06, 2013, 09:24:24 pm
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I find it absolutley mind-bottling how ancient man would make hide glue ( not chewed fish skin or air bladder ) from boiled hide pieces without the aid of a metal pot . If im ever in a primitive living situation without the aid of a tin can of sorts , im forgetting the idea of making hide glue for backing bows or reinforcing sinew bindings on tools ect .. Anybody know of a foolproof method of making this magical glue without having to carry a metal pot in your pack ?
- Aaron
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Clay pots
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Yes , but clay is not trully reliable . Maybe soapstone bowls ?
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Birch bark container with hot stones added to the water to boil it.
Grady
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One of the many uses of these things. They are called bedrock mortars. Just add water and hot rocks to the crushed bits of hide/bone/sinew.
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Clay and soapstone would both definitely work, although neither one is particularly portable. As jackcrafty mentioned, bedrock mortars would work, as would a birchbark container as Grady mentioned. Hide glue is not absolutely necessary for hafting or fletching, and ann unbacked bow is much easier to make.
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Mentioned in TBB vol 1.
Indians would use a very tighly woven basket to hold water, with hot rocks dropped in to generate boiling temps without harming basket.
I know a tightly woven basket can hold water. Ive done it... but it was a tiny basket...
I bought a tiny basket and used it for a cup to prove to a friend it can be done.
Not sure if HOT water might make it expand and get looser though.
Only tried cold.
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The stomachs of large game animals were also often hung over the fire for cooking stews. As long as the liquid levels are high enough, you are fine. Until they aren't. then you aren't.
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Thanks guys ! Iv'e never attempted a completley primitive hide glue making . I figured rock boiling would work , but would be inefective at maintaining an even temperature resulting in faulty glue . All I know is if ya make glue with rock boiling , you better have plenty of wood , rocks , water , and an extra pair of tongs
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I don't think that there should be a problem with well made earthen pots. As with anything made in that fashion, a certain level of fines and patience is needed. Just as in cooking rock under fire or firing pots, you need to pay attention to what you are doing...unlike metal pots they don't require any special attention. I think once you are comfortable using earthen materials, nothing else matters. As far as portability, I don't see that being an issue either. I wouldn't be packing around my bowls with me everywhere I go. They would stay at home. no-one goes into the woods hunting without their gear already finished and in working order. It would be the same for primitive man. You gotta figure, they had homes just as we do. they didn't pack all their worldly possessions with them everywhere they went ;)
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With a well made clay pot, you won't even have to worry about adding hot rocks, etc. You don't want it boiling anyway. Plus, when you take out the cooled rocks to return to the fire, you are removing a portion of the glue stuck on the rock and it burns up in the fire. Arrgh, waste!
Just use a pot with taller sides and place it next to your heat source. Keep turning the pot to heat the sides evenly, stir from time to time, and test with dipping a finger. You want to keep below boiling for the strongest glue after all. The finger dip tells you when it is getting too hot, PLUS as the liquid clings to your finger it allows you to determine when the glue is actually being extracted from the sinew....your fingers will get sticky!
Tell me that technique ain't ABO! But a really true to life ABO would lick the glue off his fingers because it is nutritious and wiping it on your breechcloth wastes it and makes your breechcloth stiff.
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So when we break it down , your talking about building an extra thick and tall clay pot , and constantly turning it and stirring with a stick ? Hmmmm , sounds like a good plan . Better than rock heatin and like you said loosing glue on the rocks . And it would take ALOT of stones and wood . It almost seems more time than its worth . I think in a 100 % primitive situation id stick with an unbacked bow . But definatley would consider making a fine working clay pot and simmering some glue . 8)
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That is a great point, one I think we often overlook. The investment in time and resources that a more complicated bow design represented to a culture. A well made "stick bow" is proven to be highly effective and not needing a great investment of resources to achieve.
On the other hand, if you have a culture with the resources to spend (time, materials, talent, etc) a complex design like a laminated wood, sinew, and horn bow suddenly isn't as difficult to pull off.
With that in mind, now think of living a migratory lifestyle on the inhospitable plains (be they North America or Mongolia) and cranking out a sinewed bow. THAT is quite an investment! You gotta give out common ancestors major props for what they achieved with what they had to work with.
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Props !! But most definatley . Our ancestors were able to pull off some amazing things using minimal equipment . But they were also in large groups ( I consider 6 people a large group ) so each individual had a uniques talent or skill that contributed to the " pack " . Im sure some dude 3,000 years ago woke up and decided that the wind was still and the sun was out , so he built a fire and spent 7 hours melting hide glue down by the fire so he could sinew back a bow that would last 150 years . Bottom line is if im gunna do it , im gunna do it right . I think the benefit of sinew ( considering making another bow from stone tools would be tedious , if an unbacked bow broke ) is that although it's extremely time consuming , I think after getting all your surivival chores done , working on a sinew backed bow will GUARANTEE that you have a functional an durable bow for the rest of your hunting days . All I know is I will take advantage of leisure time if im ever in a primitive living situation 8)
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The primary benefits of sinew is that is allows marginal wood to be used safely and it also allows a longer draw length from a shorter bow (very useful when shooting from a horse). The benefits decrease as the bow gets longer, primarily because the sinew/hide glue matrix weighs more than wood for a backing. A properly made self-bow is plenty durable, especially if "overbuilt"; that'd definitely be the way I'd go in a primitive situation, assuming access to decent bow wood. Sinew backed bows are also more affected by humidity. Of course, if you live in a desert, that wouldn't matter as much. Sinew or hide scraps for making glue would need to be collected. Hide glue would be useful for coating sinew wrappings on arrows, but not absolutely necessary; pine pitch/charcoal/fiber/fat mastic works well for mounting points. The Powhatan Confederacy here in VA boiled deer antlers in clay pots to produce glue. Pots don't need to be thick to cook in (thickness actually makes them less efficient).
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The primary benefits of sinew is that is allows marginal wood to be used safely and it also allows a longer draw length from a shorter bow (very useful when shooting from a horse). The benefits decrease as the bow gets longer, primarily because the sinew/hide glue matrix weighs more than wood for a backing. A properly made self-bow is plenty durable, especially if "overbuilt"; that'd definitely be the way I'd go in a primitive situation, assuming access to decent bow wood. Sinew backed bows are also more affected by humidity. Of course, if you live in a desert, that wouldn't matter as much. Sinew or hide scraps for making glue would need to be collected. Hide glue would be useful for coating sinew wrappings on arrows, but not absolutely necessary; pine pitch/charcoal/fiber/fat mastic works well for mounting points. The Powhatan Confederacy here in VA boiled deer antlers in clay pots to produce glue. Pots don't need to be thick to cook in (thickness actually makes them less efficient).
I have heard of hooves/horns being used to make glue. As yet, I have not seen anyone that can do so without a serious chemistry set, far beyond what any pre-Columbian culture could achieve. As for antler making glue, I think that is something akin to alchemy.
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In TBBB it says that two non-sources of glue are hooves and horn...
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I'll stick with hide and sinew scraps 8) for making glue . And I won't back a bow unless I need something short for hunting in tight spots . Short to me is 48" . In my eyes long is 60"
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Pamunkey is right about thick pots:
"Pots don't need to be thick to cook in (thickness actually makes them less efficient).
[/quote]"
and thick pottery is much more apt to blow up in the firing of them, as thick walls can hold in moisture or air bubbles.
an earthenware pot is porous and will absorb moisture though, so it'd be important to not leave heating glue unattended very long
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an earthenware pot is porous and will absorb moisture though, so it'd be important to not leave heating glue unattended very long
Not necessarily, iowabow has been doing some work with ABO pottery and has had some luck making a smooth inner surface that is far less porous than simple fired clay.
He's also figuring out how the chemistry works with the ground shell that he is using to temper the clay. When I was at his place last week he was showing me ABO pots that had been fired traditionally. The parts that fired in an oxygen deprived condition were really good and solid, but the stuff that had oxygen available saw spalls and cracking from the shell resorbing oxygen/etc.
Those so called "primitives" knew their biscuits from their butts! They busted their humps surviving so that their later generations could sit in front of computer screens and theorize how they survived.
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yep, shell turns to lime in an oxidized atmosphere.... it will pit. so also will any gypsum crystals (fired ,they turn to plaster)
all earthenware pots are porous. Burnishing the interior with a stone helps, but they're still porous. water will seep through.
BUT, if you grease the interior of a burnished pot, you'll have MUCH better holding and much less seeping through.
when you cook with an earthen pot you must keep the pot from boiling dry..if the liquid is gone the fire WILL likely crack the pot.
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Iowabow was telling me how he believes the burnished interior was improved by cooking greasy foods in the pot at first to "season" it.
Many ABO cooking methods require you to watch the pot, so to speak. Same happens when using a paunch pot or hide pot.
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yes, the grease helps, just like seasoning a cast iron skillet.
In New Guinea there's indigenous potters who cook a stew in a new pot, and throw it out, saying the first stew is no good.
I've made special pots for use for Navajo friends who need them for a ceremonial "sing". I grease the insides with olive oil .
(here's a pic of one I made for that purpose.)
Contemporary Navajo potters tend to use pinion pitch to seal their pots and for simply holding water this is fine.
BUT when cooking a stew, the pitch simply melts and collects in the bottom in a sticky mass and doesn't help the taste at all.
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Can you use a skull to make the glue in?