Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Holten101 on May 02, 2013, 03:41:55 pm
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I have a problem. I want to make make shoot arrows that are consistant in performance. I feel I have tried it all....measuring spine, weighting and straightening hours on end....I just cant get say, 3 arrows that perform close to what I get from bought doweled shafts.
Im at the point of giving in to bought dowels:-(. I have soo many shoot arrows now, but not two are the same....even arrows that seem to be in the same ball park spine wise, give wildly different results downrange. Looking down the shafts I can see some undulation, but overall they are "straight'ish". Will it help much to remove these inconsistancies/undulations....or should I focus more on spine and getting the spine orientation right (shot shafts seem to have funny spine behaviour)?
I use Hazel, Dog wood, wild rose and Kolkwitzia amabilis....I seem to get the best results from the latter.....Hazle are second.
Cheers
PS: Its very important to me to use local species, so cane and boo is out of the question.
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Are you orienting them with the the larger dia end of the shoot as the point end?
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i don't have any probs till i push the limits of spine. at 45 yds i do notice but at 20 its not a problem. make sure the stiff side of the shaft is oriented the same on all shafts. my best arrows are nearly dowel straight.
greg
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You need them decently straight. Also the arrow would need to be fairly consistant in weight.
Most of my arrows are fairly curvy-bent. The best ones are pretty straight. arrows that are bent don't show it till 30 yards or so.
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Are you orienting them with the the larger dia end of the shoot as the point end?
Yeah ofcause.... http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28018.msg372848.html#msg372848 these are some of the first I made.
Getting weight AND spine in the same ball park takes alot of shoots....but it still dont seem to do the trick.
Cheers
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Sorry - just thinking out loud for you.
I find the best way to match spine and weight is to match spine, then sand/scrape to match the weight. Admittedly harder to match the same distribution of weight along the shaft this way, but I pretty much ignore that when making arrows and just go with total shaft weight.
Maybe try adjusting your point weight?
I know some guys that ignore all that mumbo jumbo entirely and just make and shoot a ton of shafts, then they sort them into groups by how well they fly and from which bow - - not taking any note of spine or weight. Just some thoughts for you.
Russ
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I think each shoot shaft is about as different as each selfbow ;D. A couple of sayings I live buy when making these type arrows. First, the more perfect the material the perfect the arrow. So cut only the straightest. And make each shaft match as close as possible (would have to write a book here). And get to know each individual arrow very well. I use different colors myself.
Second, each shoot arrow has a certain potential, and that potential can change in other bows. So find your best arrow/bow match. Good luck .........Art
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I agree with Art. I made 5 arrows that weighed only 2 grain from one to another. Out of the 5 3 of them were spined perfect for my 50 lb bow. The other two shot great out of my 64 lb bow. The stiffer ones shot very slightly to the left at longer ranges. With the 64 lb bow they were perfect. The weaker ones out of the 64 lb bow shot very erratic and like 3 to 5 feet to the left they were dangerously underspined I think.
There is a bit of variation in the wood. I do think one thing that is important is orienting the stiff side of the shaft on all the shafts the same direction.
Greg
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Like I said earlier, individualize your arrows. Know which ones shoots the best, and out of which bow. I can teach you how to field tune your arrows for better grouping, but that'll limit those particular arrows to one bow............Art
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With shoots I pretty much do like Russ said, Match the arrow to the bow. I have a huge selection of bows, so I find which arrow shoots best out of which bow. It's not very scientific, but shoots aren't like straight shafts, and don't react like them.
You just can't get shoots that are perfectly straight, nor do they have to be. Straighten them the best you can and that will be good enough. Just my opinions.
Dale
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I try to keep my shoot arrows close in weight as possible. When straitening them I spin test them on a simple device I made. As long as the nock and point line up and spin true the slight wrinkles won't much matter.
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Thanks all.....I have a new batch of shot arrows "cooking". Ill finish them all, and then start putting them through bows and see which does what:-).
Cheers
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this is a great thread.
I've definitely noticed each of my shoot arrows has personality. using barred turkey fletchings helps to recognize individuals pattern.
like people, some are more extreme than others. one of my new shoot arrows consistantly falls low and to the left.
I don't weigh anything and only "test spine" by hand and by shooting...
Once its character is known, a good arrow performs well. I don't even have to think about it, i just recognize the arrow as I put it on the string, and
my mind adjusts for it. Some of these character arrows are actually the more reliable ones i'd take hunting...once i get confident enough on my OWN skills!
my best shoot arrows : viburnum arrowwood ,hazel, wildrose in that order...and i also am trying to only use local stuff,(though i just planted red osier) and no cane grows here.
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Richard, if you're a right-handed shooter then your arrow that impacts low/left, will, if flipped over, should impact high and right. It can be field tuned in for a left-handed shooter, but not for yourself.
I think a lot of you guys are making left-handed arrows ;D...........Art
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HA!! maybe thats it... :)
i'll try the flip over for a test
I know there are a handful of my shoot arrows I'd select for a hunt because i think i know them pretty well.
but some arrows? I'm still not sure if its the arrow.....or its just me!
i'll get such a nice tight 4 packed circle in a paper plate at 20 yrds,
then its as if i just intimidated myself! and the next shooting is like: "what the...?" 1 in the plate and three on the edges, or drifting.
its the inconsistency that makes me think it's likely just me! :)
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If you guys are making left hand arrows you can send them to me. I will put them to good use
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I've been really getting into shoot arrows and harvested a boatload of shoots of various types this spring. I found if you select common spine and similar weight they shoot about the same. Now streight is something else. I have some that are spiral but when you spin them virtically on the point the nock and point are perfectly still and the shaft looks like a Barber pole. They shoot dead nuts! I also found if your arrows shoot close keep shooting them. They seem to marry the bow. After about 100 shots they fine tune with your bow. If they're way out at the beginning use them with another bow and follow the same discipline. With shoot arrows you need to make a bunch to get a few. No worries though. Just make another bow. You'll find a match sooner or later!
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I tend to shoot them and mark the ones that shoot good with a shrpie or pencil, then I can keep track of the ones that hit "most" of the time. Many have said to orient the stiff side, but they haven't said where to orient it, the stiff side of the shoot should be against the bow, opposite the index feather if you are three fletching, but stiff side should go towards the bow. I shoot arrows of all differen lengths and diameters, heavy end forward and tally hoe, shoot em til you know em. That's how I do it. Good luck, dpgratz
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All those species you mentioned for arrow making will NEVER stay straight . Wooden arrows , even cane , will need a weekly mild heat and hand straightning . 3 coats of warm grease per arrow never hurts either . Straightness is critical for a primitive arrow to do it's job more efficiently - which is to kill . But when your shooting within 15 yards , your arrow DOES NOT have to be lazer beam straight . I know because I hunt natural blinds shooting far from perfectly straight rivercane arrows . Just fletch good , maintain even thickness throughout the shaft , and remove any bumps or irregular parts of the arrow by sanding . And spine and weight ? Indians sure didn't have any grain scales or whatever , just learn the feel for whats needed , depending on the draw weight .
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Yep, make a bunch of them and keep up with the arrows that shoot good from a specific bow. I am a cane arrow guy, and I don't worry so much about the straightness as I do how it shoots. I heat straighten them and sand the nodes till I get a shaft that rolls pretty good across the countertop. I then attach a point and spin it a little to make sure I did my work right. Shooting them with different bows till I get a set that works is my approach. Not real scientific for sure, but I make arrows to hunt with and I don't shoot further than 20 yards. Blah, blah, blah..... sorry for being long-winded. My answer is straightness is important but it isn't what really counts. Does it fly good and hit where you are looking? That is the question. I have some oddly crooked arrows that hit bullseyes and some straight ones that stray off target everytime... With shoots, or cane, or any other material, you got to shoot them to test them.
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What Howard said +1
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Im going for quantity....im currently making (or remaking) all my shot arrows to up their spine (cutting of excess length, putting on lighter points and respineing) and maybe get a few good ones. I definatly disagree that shot arrows need weekly strightening....mine seem stable....even those that have been in the cubbert for years.
My biggest problem is that I use mine for 3D events (not hunting)....so I need at least 3 arrows that perform similar, and I cant limit my range to 15-20 yds. Buying shafts feels like cheating tbh....I would rather just go thought the pain of making enough shot arrows, so thats were im at now.
Cheers
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This crooked sourwood shoot arrow shot wasn't a fluke. Cut from the stump only 5 days previously. Shooter won the primitive division that days shooting that arrow about 80% of the time. A little understanding goes a long way ;).
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I usually instinctivley grab and shoot my best arrow .
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I usually instinctivley grab and shoot my best arrow .
Same. On my shoot arrows I like to paint the nocks a different color for each arrow... it helps me ID the arrow and remember how it flies(I only have about 6 so it works fine)
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I han't weighed,spined a shoot arrow for 15 years maybe more. Here a couple things to conceder.
I get all my shots under 20 mostly 15 or under. This helps with weight and spine.
My bows are center shot. This in itself helps with crooked arrows. But all arrows flex around the bow at the smae spot.
I've made sets arrows and if you want to put the time in you can make a set spine and weight arrows. They won't be as close as a set of carbons. You just can't start with a dozzen shoots and plan on getting them all the same but I can start with sat 45 or 50 and end up with a dozzen with in 5 grains.
But with a slow,center shot selfbow you don't need to go that close. People and your included (I CAN TELL THE WAYS YOU TALK) have been brain washed by the compound craze. And everything has to be totally the same to hit your target. It's true with a 300 FPS compound 2 grains and they have to be spined all perfectly the same. If you want to show off and shoot 10 rings for your friends go back to a compound.
But your shooting a SLOWWWWWWW selfbow.
A little been or kink dos'nt matter. Your arrows all come off the bow at the same place. With a center shot bow all your arrows come off the bow with in 8 or 10's. So it really don't matter it the rest of the arrows not perfecty straight. If you don't beleive me POWER your arrow up before a shot. Shoot it like this and you can see the point (lenth of arrow) in which your (all) arrows leaves the bow.
Keep it under 20 most of my shots are 15 and under. Isn't that why we bow hunt and not shoot a rifle 500 yards. If my bow shoot the arrow ok I use it. Do you think indains set around the camp fire passing the scales and spine tester around. NO, LIKE I SAID IF THERE BOW SHOT IT GOOD THEY USED IT.
I killed 37 bucks unteen does and 15 gobblers most with unweighed, unspined shoot arrows. Not on knew my arrow had a been in it. I love to shoot but I suck. But I can shoot concented 3,4 inch groups at 20.
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good post crooketarrow.
If we have to have some kind of definition ---what you're saying I believe defines "primitive archer" the best --learning to do as a our ancestors did.
This applies to not only archery/hunting but to living a good life as well. The life that most modern humans are missing out on.
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Maybe all of this doesn't really matter. All I'm looking for is a way that I can make a dozen arrows that all shoot fairly consistently without having to make 100 of them. If there's a way to check the shoot and determine it will get close to what I want before I go to all the work of fletching and pointing, great.
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I han't weighed,spined a shoot arrow for 15 years maybe more. Here a couple things to conceder.
I get all my shots under 20 mostly 15 or under. This helps with weight and spine.
My bows are center shot. This in itself helps with crooked arrows. But all arrows flex around the bow at the smae spot.
I've made sets arrows and if you want to put the time in you can make a set spine and weight arrows. They won't be as close as a set of carbons. You just can't start with a dozzen shoots and plan on getting them all the same but I can start with sat 45 or 50 and end up with a dozzen with in 5 grains.
But with a slow,center shot selfbow you don't need to go that close. People and your included (I CAN TELL THE WAYS YOU TALK) have been brain washed by the compound craze. And everything has to be totally the same to hit your target. It's true with a 300 FPS compound 2 grains and they have to be spined all perfectly the same. If you want to show off and shoot 10 rings for your friends go back to a compound.
But your shooting a SLOWWWWWWW selfbow.
A little been or kink dos'nt matter. Your arrows all come off the bow at the same place. With a center shot bow all your arrows come off the bow with in 8 or 10's. So it really don't matter it the rest of the arrows not perfecty straight. If you don't beleive me POWER your arrow up before a shot. Shoot it like this and you can see the point (lenth of arrow) in which your (all) arrows leaves the bow.
Keep it under 20 most of my shots are 15 and under. Isn't that why we bow hunt and not shoot a rifle 500 yards. If my bow shoot the arrow ok I use it. Do you think indains set around the camp fire passing the scales and spine tester around. NO, LIKE I SAID IF THERE BOW SHOT IT GOOD THEY USED IT.
I killed 37 bucks unteen does and 15 gobblers most with unweighed, unspined shoot arrows. Not on knew my arrow had a been in it. I love to shoot but I suck. But I can shoot concented 3,4 inch groups at 20.
I think that might be the first time I have felt offended on this board....you dont know me Crooketarrow, and you certaintly dont know what I expect from shot arrows, so stop the compound, weights and carbon insinuation.
Cheers to the rest of you
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I start with all my shoots slighly stiff and unfletched and sand them down a bit at a time till they fly straight out of my bow. Seems to work well for me. Anything that doesn't fly well gets straightened again and if that doesn't solve the problem I toss it. Its surprising how well a wiggly shaft can fly when it matches the bow. I feel I get a better ratio of good shafts to bad shafts with this method.
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It's a shame you guys can't go back to the old PA board, about tens years ago. All this was discussed and sorted through. Too old and too tired now to get heavily involved in these discussions like I use to. The joy for me was the thrill of discovery. Give it a try.........Art B