Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: autologus on April 15, 2013, 04:32:24 pm
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Has anyone bent ERC and if so what method did you use. I have a deflexed/decrowned ERC stave that I am going to back with Rawhide but wanted to flip the tips to make a R/D bow. I have not worked ERC before and have discovered that it tears out easily. I have a couple spots on the back where there are some knots that have torn out a bit and was thinking of "bondoing" them with CA glue and ERC dust, then backing with Rawhide using TBIII glue. I will try to get a picture of it tomorrow and post it and see what you guys think would be the best course of action. It is 47.5" end to end and about 3/4" thick, it has about 2" of deflex in it.
One last thing, what design and stats do you all think I should use and could get?
Grady
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just be careful with cedar that short,,how long of a draw are you looking to get? my experience with cedar is that it don't bend well,,maybe someone here has worked cedar that short,,
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Has anyone bent ERC and if so what method did you use. I have a deflexed/decrowned ERC stave that I am going to back with Rawhide but wanted to flip the tips to make a R/D bow. I have not worked ERC before and have discovered that it tears out easily. I have a couple spots on the back where there are some knots that have torn out a bit and was thinking of "bondoing" them with CA glue and ERC dust, then backing with Rawhide using TBIII glue. I will try to get a picture of it tomorrow and post it and see what you guys think would be the best course of action. It is 47.5" end to end and about 3/4" thick, it has about 2" of deflex in it.
One last thing, what design and stats do you all think I should use and could get?
Grady
Holy Cow, how much draw length you want from it? I assume its mostly heartwood, the sapwood is OK but it takes more set...
I work with ERC but I do not generally like to bend it. I also have only made one successful bow from the wood, from 2 attempts.
But the 1st attempt was a 40 inch branch I attempted to shoot with 28" arrows. Total failure.
the second attempt was a cable-backed flatbow, it took a lot of set, but it was mostly sapwood. It also had one heck of a knot at the back.
it drew 32#@25" and I kinda just floor tillered it.
used nuthin but a hatchet.
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Being that short I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 23 -24". if I can't get the tips flipped no problem I will just be a deflexed bow.
Grady
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Being that short I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 23 -24". if I can't get the tips flipped no problem I will just be a deflexed bow.
Grady
You should be OK with that draw.
Not sure what you mean with r/d bow.
Definitly back it with rawhide. Expecially if it has knots. ERC is supposedly weak in tension, but its pretty good in compression. So smooth the surface you want to bend, boil it with hickory strips on either side and bend with the strips in place to keep down splinters.
bend gently and slowly. Its springy wood.
Eehh.. so you say its de-flexed, and you want to get the tips slightly reflexed to counter this? so unstrung it looks sort of like-
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I did an r/d with erc once. It wasn't nearly that short though. I just used dry heat on a Form, it didn't like to stay bent though.
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That is the general shape I was looking for. Just wasn't sure how to do the bends, I have steamed and used dry heat on other woods but never used ERC. I will try the boiling, I will get it to floor tiller and try to bend the tips and hope for the best.
Grady
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Use steam to flip your tips with ERC. N go just a hair past of what you want...cus some of it will spring back a hair. Good luck...that's really short for that wood. I just got done chasing a ring on the stuff BTW.
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Eeehh... R/d means reflex-deflex. You guys have no idea how dumb I now feel.
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Your asking alot out of that short of a stave. I won't say it can't be done, but sinew would be the way to do it. Erc is tricky to bend. Especially if there are any knots where you intend to bend it. I generally use a heat gun and a lot of Crisco slathered on to prevent scorching. Don't try to bend it all at once, gradual steps are much better with erc. I would also suggest that you consider just leaving it deflexed. With the super low mass it will still shoot very hard if you pull it off. You will probably only take another inch of set if it holds. Most of the time erc doesn't take much set, it just blows up when its had enough. If you must bend it, consider bending in a gradual arc as opposed to a sharp bend at the tips. As has been mentioned, it doesn't hold bends well. Expect to lose half of your introduced bend. I hope that helps. Josh
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If you're after some flipped tips, you could consider kerf bending the ERC. If you don't know what that involves, run a search or let us know. I think it would be a good technique to use for such a short bow, where only the outer few inches need to be recurved.
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Here is the stave I was referring too. I would like any suggestions you all can give on the design and dimensions you think would best suit this stave. If it grenades on me that's OK but I would like for it to survive and make a workable bow.
Grady
Ends
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231432_zps5113da31.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231432_zps5113da31.jpg.html)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231408_zps84543085.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231408_zps84543085.jpg.html)
Belly
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231310_zps37cc2583.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231310_zps37cc2583.jpg.html)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231257_zps0f10f725.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231257_zps0f10f725.jpg.html)
Back
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231250_zps7652b4b5.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231250_zps7652b4b5.jpg.html)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231235_zpsefb1986a.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231235_zpsefb1986a.jpg.html)
Side
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/autologus/20130416_231222_zpsf4b550c3.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/autologus/media/20130416_231222_zpsf4b550c3.jpg.html)
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Uh...thats not what I had envisioned when you said stave. I think you're gonna have to hard back that with a good strong wood like hickory, oak, ash or something like that. Erc heartwood is brittle volatile stuff under tension in my experience. I'm afraid I can't offer any advice on this one. I just have no experience hardbacking bows. Sorry, wish I could be more help. Josh
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That's KNOT the greatest piece of erc to make a bow with....with those knots and its shortness in lenght I'd scrap that idea IMHO. Not even worth trying a hardwood backing either IMHO. And remember I make a lot of bows out of "firewood",and even that's just not worth it in my eyes. I don't even see where you could rip it in half and splice em together for a full length piece and then gluing a hardwood backing over that. Sorry...but that's my two cents :-\
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That's a lot of knots in that board...it's indeed not quite what I had imagined, but luckily you provided good pictures. I think there's too many knots to get away with only a rawhide backing. Since it is relatively flat and even, I would also suggest a hard wooden backing. It will still be a tricky endeavor, but with more chance of success than with only some rawhide. I wouldn't be surprised if it broke, though. It's very short and very knot riddled...
It's a beautiful piece of wood, though. I can almost smell it through the monitor... Perhaps I would use it for decorations, such as a bow rack. Might be too pretty to fucntion as a bow that might as well break.
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There's NO way to lay that out even with a hardwood backing without having any of those knots running horizontal in the belly....knots running horizontal like that are death 100% of the time(especially in erc). It don't matter what you back that with it will explode without a doubt. I bet money it couldn't even make a 10# bow that could shoot over a 100 arras.
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Yeah, I would have to agree with Chris and darksoul, but I always try to stop just short of saying it can't be done. I've seen some folks pull off some crazy stuff on here that I would of never even dreamed of trying. If you really have to make an erc bow shoot me a pm. I got a few limbs that would give you a lot better chance at success. If you cut your own, go for the limbs that grow up close to the trunk. They will have less knots and I believe the limbs to be much more durable than the trunk wood. I never have had much luck keeping a trunk wood stave together. Just my .02 . Josh
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I was just a leftover scrap out splitting out some nice staves. It is really more of a challenging experiment. I appreciate your candor on the matter. I may give it a go just for giggles and especially since a challenge has been made. I have a nice long rope on my tillering tree so I should be out of the path of the shrapnel.
Grady
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;D I thought you might. Good luck! Josh
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There's one common trait in each and every bowyer that we all share...and that's a hardhead >:D....stubbornness runs strong thru our veins ;) :laugh:
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I am only afraid of two things,, one of them is full drawing a cedar bow,,,, the other is drawing a red oak board bow,,no offence to those who make them,, that's the two things I afraid of :laugh:
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that would shure look purrty sandwiched in a trylam
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Cedars beautiful wood but good luck making a bow from that i wouldn't waste time on it
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Cedars beautiful wood but good luck making a bow from that i wouldn't waste time on it
Its better than watching TV.
Grady
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Cedars beautiful wood but good luck making a bow from that i wouldn't waste time on it
Its better than watching TV.
Grady
Lol yea I guess you got me there
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If you can get some good bamboo, use it for the backing. It WILL mater which side of that board you glue it to. Your 4th pic shows the board with few knots on its face. Glue the boo ( or whatever backing you have ) to that side. What this does is it allows you to remove most of the wood with the knots on the opposite side as you tiller it down. I would go for nothing over 40 pounds. Make the bow 2 inches wide at the fades and a pyramid would be best design. I would put my money on this bow coming through for you if you get a good boo backing. Hickory would work to, but the back needs to be PERFECT. Crowned back, flat belly, and if you can deflex the bow a bit while you glue on the backing, maybe 2 to 3 inches, that would be best. You can also glue on siyahs for recurves and get a longer draw out of it without over stressing the wood to much. Go for a bendy handle.
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I'd save that for a different project were I you. Its really pretty wood and it would be a shame to blow it up into splinters.