Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: crwjr on April 08, 2013, 05:55:44 pm
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I got a new toy in the mail (more for my reloading but it works great for my bows) a chronograph!! I know this site is primitive but I'm sure some have shot through one?!?! Well here are my stats. My first bow is a Hickory boardbow and it is shooting 160fps on avg. my second bow is a meager 135fps. But it is a fun bow to shoot! What would a respectable speed be for defferent style bows?
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I have heard the rule of thumb 100+ the draw weight as an fps. I think it's a tad low, but it gives some sort of guide.
I'd expect maybe 110 + draw weight.
Del
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I know a few folks frown on chronographs when it comes to wood bows but I personally think they're a fun and useful tool.
Soooooooooo many variables involved in comparing stats. Heck, temperature, humidity, M/C , actually bow weight, type string w/wo silencers, hunting or target setup and many other variables. New bows vs broke-in bows speeds are quite different. Just the different numbers from a set of wood arrows is an eye opener.
For example, I first tested a 40# Osage @24" (FF string) draw with two different arrows. One aspen (24" 5" parabolic cut feathers 377grs) and one cedar (24" 5" shield cut 382gr). Bow is well shot in and I averaged 160 fps. Now with a 28" hunting cedar arrow w/5 1/2" turkey feathers weighing 488gr I averaged 169fps. Same set of arrows but 522 grain cedar arrow, speed averaged 164fps.
So as you can see, actually arrow weight is meaningless unless the arrow likes your bow ;D. Art B
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My 10# hickory bow shoots 125 fps. SS
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When used properly and everything is taken into account I think chrono's are very useful things.
Shooting a bow and then describing how it feels, how fast the arrows are etc are subjective things but a chrono just tells it how it is :)
I've used a chrono for years now and just recently I decided to speed check all my 'personal' bows, when I finished I realised that all my fastest bows have one thing in common - they shoot like nothing has happened when you let go of the string...I guess what i'm trying to say is that what you feel in your hand when shooting tells you a lot.
Anyway to answer your question! My best speed so far is 212 fps with an 8.8 gpp arrow. 51lb @ 26 bow
I've shot that bow quite a bit now and it hasn't lost any speed.
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Art I agree some will frown, but I plan on building a hunting bow and I like to know my speed and weight to get a good penetrating set up for human kills. I'm going for a double lung pass through :)
So I have no problem using one for some good ol info.
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When used properly and everything is taken into account I think chrono's are very useful things.
Shooting a bow and then describing how it feels, how fast the arrows are etc are subjective things but a chrono just tells it how it is :)
I've used a chrono for years now and just recently I decided to speed check all my 'personal' bows, when I finished I realised that all my fastest bows have one thing in common - they shoot like nothing has happened when you let go of the string...I guess what i'm trying to say is that what you feel in your hand when shooting tells you a lot.
Agree!!! And I think if you hit 200 that's something to smile about congrats on that!!
And Squirrel that's impressive for that bow!!
Anyway to answer your question! My best speed so far is 212 fps with an 8.8 gpp arrow. 51lb @ 26 bow
I've shot that bow quite a bit now and it hasn't lost any speed.
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Art I agree some will frown, but I plan on building a hunting bow and I like to know my speed and weight to get a good penetrating set up for human kills. I'm going for a double lung pass through :)
So I have no problem using one for some good ol info.
Human kills ROFL >:D >:D >:D
Remind me to stay away from you :o
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You got me Duck lol, I'll make the excuse that it was my autocorrect iPhone ::) you know what I meant (humane) lol
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I knew what you meant, I just can't stop laughing at it ;D the whole thing is worded too perfect for human(e) hunting
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My 10# hickory bow shoots 125 fps. SS
Check your facts.
The thing I took away from playing with a chronograph, a bow, and a set of carefully matched arrows....just how bloody dang important good releases are for consistency. It's easy to see 15-20 fps difference between a good release and a bad release.
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I read the whole "human kills" thing earlier......Kept thinkin' wtf? A joke maybe, but the timing was all wrong or something. Or maybe he is some kind of phsyco who just revealed himself...... Laughing out loud right now!
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Usually 3 time draw weight is a about average and what I go by when I decide to test one, I can usually tell if they are fast enough for me when I shoot them.100 + draw weight is what a lot use as has been said. Anything in the 150s-160s fps for a 50 lb bow ant bad at all. :) 212 on the other hand is not normal. :)
Not saying it ant so but I would need to see a 50lb self bow drawn at 26 inches with a 450-500 grain arrow do it. :) fastest I have ever see with them stats was average 181 and it was screaming. :)
Pappy
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My 10# hickory bow shoots 125 fps. SS
Check your facts.
The thing I took away from playing with a chronograph, a bow, and a set of carefully matched arrows....just how bloody dang important good releases are for consistency. It's easy to see 15-20 fps difference between a good release and a bad release.
is 125 good or bad for a 10-15# bow? i rechecked draw weight and it is acctually 15#. ill go down to the club and use the chronograph agian when i get the chance. SS
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125 is very very good for that weight, ??? :-\
Pappy
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125 is very very good for that weight, ??? :-\
Pappy
really? maybe my scales are wrong :-\ it's definatly under 20# so maybe it's correct :D SS
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??? :) :-\
Pappy
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So Pappy my Mollegabet redoak board bow is 65" ttt, it's #40 at 26", and an avg speed of 132fps not sure the arrow weight but I'm guessing close to 500gr total. Does that sound respectful? I made it light so my wife and kids can enjoy shooting it. But my next one I'm hoping for around #55/60. I really like the Mollegabet style bow. And by the way you have a beautiful collection of Bows. I would love to come down to Clarksville and check them out in person.
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125 is very very good for that weight, ??? :-\
Pappy
really? maybe my scales are wrong :-\ it's definatly under 20# so maybe it's correct :D SS
I remember one of the guys here posting that he used to run into probs at flight shoots when his bows were all a couple of pounds over weight until he reasised he wasn't allowing for the extra physical weight of the scales.
When I read that, I scampered off to the garage to weigh the scales.
My big scales weigh two pounds, so I adjust 'em to read 2# 'cos even with no tension on 'em at all, as they are still hanging that 2# on the string.
Most approximations and rules of thumb stop being any good at some weight or other.
Like Pappy's 3 times the weight, isn't going to be right at 10# draw weight, but is fine at 50# !
Also miniature bows can give some surprisingly high speeds.
Del
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125 is very very good for that weight, ??? :-\
Pappy
really? maybe my scales are wrong :-\ it's definatly under 20# so maybe it's correct :D SS
I remember one of the guys here posting that he used to run into probs at flight shoots when his bows were all a couple of pounds over weight until he reasised he wasn't allowing for the extra physical weight of the scales.
When I read that, I scampered off to the garage to weigh the scales.
My big scales weigh two pounds, so I adjust 'em to read 2# 'cos even with no tension on 'em at all, as they are still hanging that 2# on the string.
Del
yes i see what you mean. but i factored in the weight of the scales. SS
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All my bows are in the 45-55# range and my arrows 35-45 grams. 150 fps disapoints me, 160 fps are keepers, 170 fps im proud of, 175 fps is my goal, 181 fps is my record.
That being said....my "go to bows" always end up being the ones that are "sweet shooters" (no/little hand chock, smooth draw an accurate), fps ends up being a minor factor;-)
Cheers
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I'm not frowning. I just don't own one. :) Jawge
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All my bows are in the 45-55# range and my arrows 35-45 grams. 150 fps disapoints me, 160 fps are keepers, 170 fps im proud of, 175 fps is my goal, 181 fps is my record.
That being said....my "go to bows" always end up being the ones that are "sweet shooters" (no/little hand chock, smooth draw an accurate), fps ends up being a minor factor;-)
Cheers
Holten,
Sounds like you have tinkered a bit with fps. I don't think its the end all but whats the recipie for getting a fast shooter. I have made 6 bows so far and one thing I have noticed is keeping the tips narrow seems to help.
Thanks,
Greg
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I've never shot thru a crono. I would like at some point just to see. But, last year a missed a doe at 20 yards. The arrow hit in the ground before she jump. Same think with a couple bunnies hang around my stand. So I figure that's plenty fast enough.
Now squirrel on the other hand have jump the string on me. But those little buggers are FAST.
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Now squirrel on the other hand have jump the string on me. But those little buggers are FAST.
The secret to hitting the squirrels is to give them a head fake to get them in the air then shoot them on the way down. ;)
Grady
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A few years ago I shot one of my bows through a chrone. I was so disappointed in the numbers I never did it again and don't care to do it again. My bows shoot well and plenty good enough for hunting and 3D so it really doesn't matter what the chrono numbers are. ;)
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Yah, your bows usually look like dogs Pat.................doesnt suprise me!
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I can understand having your hopes up and then reality hits and the numbers are not there. But I still like to have an idea of what my bow can do, plus my chrono was bought for my reloads but I have yet to fire a bullet through it :) having to much fun with my bows lol. I think it would be interesting to see what designs work better, snaky, backed with different materials, D shapes longer bows or shorter ones, the different woods and so on. That would be a fun day at the range!!
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After working on the other kind of bow for years, and trying to get every FPS out of them I could, it is nothing but a pure pleasure to see my arrow going to a target, and if I concentrate real hard, I think I could count the fletching rotations.....that is plenty fast for this old boy now day.
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I've used my reloading chronograph some on my bows, but it got pointless after awhile. My favorite bow is a bamboo backed hickory that pulls 81 lbs at 31" and with the arrows I shoot out if it it runs 170-175 fps....which is slower than many of my bows. But I don't shoot 32 1/2" long 3/8" thick poplar shafts with 145 grain heads out of those other bows. It hits like a sledge hammer at 35 yards and I can put 6 of 6 in a paper plate :) that's what matters.
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I've had this discussion before and am glad to see polite discussion said here.It really is just a testing tool.Each to his own.I own one myself but like was said I can tell by shooting and feel if I have a sweet shooter.Seems like once made the others follow.That's what's important to me.To add to this discussion what comes with it is a very quiet quiet bow.It's all about efficiency.
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Yes crwjr ,that sound respectful to me, Like I said I haven't shot through one in years,I have 2 but they are dust covered,nothing wrong with it at all but like Pat sometimes it will hurt you feelings and it shouldn't, is all I am saying.I may pull one out and clean it up for the Classic and let people see what theirs will do. One thing I know is you really have to watch folks shooting them to be sure they represent them right,they will over draw most times just like they do when they shoot the long distance shoot. If they say 50@26 be sure they draw 26 and it is 50. :) :)
Pappy
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I'm a total nerd and tend to try and isolate every variable and track every metric. FPS is just another form of feedback that shows you how everything is fitting together.
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Not trying o hijack this thread[which I am but sue me] Pappy I'm a coming to your classic soon. What kind of distance shot or clout shoot you got?I like watching those arrows fly....LOL.
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All depends on the weather,we try to have a long distance Elk or something like that,this year we are planing on flying disks.All depends on the weather forcast,usually rains at least some. Sorry for the hijack also. No carry on. ;D ;D
Pappy
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Sounds Tony Tiger great!!!!!!
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Art I agree some will frown, but I plan on building a hunting bow and I like to know my speed and weight to get a good penetrating set up for human kills. I'm going for a double lung pass through :)
So I have no problem using one for some good ol info.
Human kills ROFL >:D >:D >:D
Remind me to stay away from you :o
Funniest thing I've read on here in awhile! :laugh:
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Art I agree some will frown, but I plan on building a hunting bow and I like to know my speed and weight to get a good penetrating set up for human kills. I'm going for a double lung pass through :)
So I have no problem using one for some good ol info.
Make sure you use bodkins just in case they are wearing body armor. >:D
Grady
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i can remeber when I first got into bow making 6yrs ago and I wanted to see how fast my hickory bow was. I took it to the range and ran it through a couple times and my hi was 150 and average was around 130. Release is key. Now I don't worry about it much. I can tell which bows shoot faster and the key is where you put the arrow. a well placed shot and a sharp broadhead is what puts meat in the freezer and thats all I care about. Danny
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"Holten,
Sounds like you have tinkered a bit with fps. I don't think its the end all but whats the recipie for getting a fast shooter. I have made 6 bows so far and one thing I have noticed is keeping the tips narrow seems to help.
Thanks,
Greg"
Narrow tips, no or little set (I aim for 1" reflex in my straight stave long/flat bows when shot in), heat treatment and trapped back. As of now I havent been able to consistenly make lever bows faster than pyramids, but my fastest WAS a leverbow.
Most important to me was is learning the type of wood you use....after having made 20+ wych elm bows I start getting a feel for the wood....how far I can go and how to use its qualities best. So my advice is sticking to one species and learn that species.
Cheers
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I don't use the chronos much anymore unless I am trying to figure out which bow I should use for a flight competition. For several years I used them dailey. They don't mean much unless you have refined your approach to using them. I have one draw and release I would use in a target or hunting situation that I might get about 160 fps, another draw and release that would more closely imitate a shooting machine and the same bow might hit 175, if I just want to see what I can get out and I really wind up with an active release the same bow might hit 190 fps. It is also very important as pappy said to monitor bow weight, draw length and arrow weight. For every 10 grains of arrow weight up or down you will loose or gain about 1 1/2 fps. I was at the walk the talk one year which is a bow testing event that uses a shooting machine and meticulously weighed arrows and measured draw lengths. The winning bow shot 10 grains per pound at 194 fps drawing 28" ( Glass longbow) I wanted to see how fast I could shoot it by hand using the same draw length and was able to crank out 221 fps. That being said it is good to know about what you are shooting your hunting arrows at using your normal draw and release. As long as it is sufficient you are good to go. You will also get a feel for how consistent you are building your bows.
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Steve, if you can swing up to 30 fps based on release, than bows that other guys are shooting in the 190 fps range at 10 gpp, might be able to pass the 200 fps mark right now giving a quick release? Is that true?
Gabe
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Gabe, I can hit 200 with an active release on occassion but don't consider it a true measure of bow performance. I can't average 30 fps usually about 18 if I am really pushing it, every once in a while I will hit it just right and get over 25 fps extra. If you test a lot you can kind of teach yourself to match the shooting machine. I would never report a bow speed on a wound up release. I know a lot of guys who cheat themselves by short drawing and letting the string slip off of the stretched out fingers. The bows they are testing will often test 15 fps better than they are reporting on a fair test.
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The biggest problem I had using a chrony was the way I had to change my release. I ve never worried about what the arrow passes THROUGH any time other than shooting over a chrony. I know it's not my normal release, so I don't trust the numbers....
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I have never shot one of my bows through a chrony, but would like to. What say we set one up at the classic so the MEN in the group can shoot through it, We'll let the LADY'S retrieve the arrows! ;D ;D ;D
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Usually 3 time draw weight is a about average and what I go by when I decide to test one, I can usually tell if they are fast enough for me when I shoot them.100 + draw weight is what a lot use as has been said. Anything in the 150s-160s fps for a 50 lb bow ant bad at all. :) 212 on the other hand is not normal. :)
Not saying it ant so but I would need to see a 50lb self bow drawn at 26 inches with a 450-500 grain arrow do it. :) fastest I have ever see with them stats was average 181 and it was screaming. :)
Pappy
By all means come and see my bow. I don't even mind telling how I did it ;) if anyone's interested.
51lbs @ 26 with an 8 strand d70 string and a 451 grain arrow and no fancy release, just drawing and releasing at full draw with no 'hold' time.
I'm making that bows sister right now and we''ll see what the new one does in a few days. I'll also have 10gpp arrows ready. I may even post a video. ;)
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Without video, your story didnt happen.
My best is with a 50lb elm bow that shot 170s with 10gpp. That was 3 years ago... wonder what it does now? Will break out the chrono soon as I am done moving and see...
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Don't need to come see Mike,I will take you word for that. :) Just makes me feel pretty inadequate as a high performance bow maker. [NOT] :) :) I always thought 150-160- was good and 170-180 was outstanding,guess I was mistaken. ??? won't be the first time I was wrong and feel sure it won't be the last. ;) :) Cody remind me when you get there and We will pull them out and get them working
[batt's and such] and try and find a safe and handy place to set it up.Gary has been wanting to do that any way to test some Glass bow against selfbows. :)He seems to think the selfbows will win,I tend to disagree. :)
Pappy
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Without video, your story didnt happen.
Is that right? I'm pretty sure it did.....or else it was a mighty convincing dream ;)
Sure people can make bogus claims over the internet but believe me I have zero interest in that. I just wanted to share a new bow that i'd made with some like mined people.
Pappy the numbers you state for performance are right on the money. Remember I got those speed figures at 8.8 grains per pound and most people talk about speed when the arrow is 10 gpp. All I did when I 'designed' that bow was to use a bit of lateral thinking regarding energy storage and how that is linked to the wood breaking down (set) whilst getting to full draw.
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Don't take this wrong Mike,I am not saying your bow didn't do that, you just have to understand that it is pretty amazing and way way above average or even above what is usually considered smoking fast,so you should expect some doubt. :) I'm for sure not calling you a liar if say it did that,that's good enough for me. I learn new things every day. :o Nice job is about all I know to say and keep up the good work . :) :) No hard feeling I hope. ;)
Pappy
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Hey Pappy, there's still a few of us around that remember when Marc St Louis posted way way higher numbers than what Mike posted. Albeit with flight shooting arrows ;D.
Type wood Mike used for his bow, his design (very well thought out IMO) and past weather conditions, I'd put my money on his numbers. Heck, since it warmed up 20-30 degrees since I tested my 40#er, I'd have to eat some crow if I had to repeat those numbers I posted.......Art B
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Y'all talking about the classic is killing me!!! I want to go so bad but funds is not on my side! I'm planning on showing up next year (with a few more bows under my belt)! I hope y'all have fun a land someone please post pics, and vids PLEASE!!!!
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Mike, I was joking around bud, I just wanna watch a video is all :) None of that was a question to your integrity, I promise.
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The way I test my bows is as follows.
First I look at the "standard" self-bow setup:
Pyramid style flat bow with 6" unbending portion of handle
True set @ 1-1/2" or less.
No reflex
No Recurve
6" of unbending tips
67" bow length and 66" Nock to Nock
50# draw weight
28" draw
500 grain arrow
Bowstring weight is about 3 times the draw weight and (in grains)
Hemp or flax bow string
Brace height = (length of bow x .086) or about 5-3/4", in this case, measured from the neutral plane
Hold at full draw for 2 seconds before release
With the above parameters, the average arrow speed will be 150 fps. If you keep all the proportions the same, you should get 150 fps even from "miniature" bow & arrow sets.
Variation of any of the the above will change the arrow speed. All other variables unchanged, altering the the bow length up or down from 66" decreases arrow speed, low set increases speed, reflex resulting in higher draw weight at brace height increases speed, shorter unbending tips decreases arrow speed, longer unbending tips increases speed up to a point, higher draw weight increases speed, longer draw increases speed, lighter arrows increase speed, heavier bowstrings decrease speed, lower brace height increases speed up to a point, and holding time at full draw will decrease speed the longer you hold and increase speed the shorter you hold. Also, drawing the bow slowly at first then quickly toward the end, with no hold time, increases speed.
All the bows I make these days (except for warbows) are shorter, with shorter draw lengths, and with less power than the example above. I just tested a 51" bow last week. It pulls 43 lbs and shoots 430 grain arrows with a 24" draw and 4-3/4" brace. I'm getting 140 fps on average and I'm satisfied. I could get 150 fps easy by using some of the "tricks" above but I don't.
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The way I test my bows is as follows.
First I look at the "standard" setup:
Pyramid style flat bow with 6" unbending portion of handle
True set @ 1-1/2" or less.
No reflex
6" of unbending tips
67" bow length and 66" Nock to Nock
50# draw weight
28" draw
500 grain arrow
Bowstring weight is about 3 times the draw weight and (in grains)
Hemp or flax bow string
Brace height = (length of bow x .086) or about 5-3/4", in this case, measured from the neutral plane
Hold at full draw for 2 seconds before release
With the above parameters, the average arrow speed will be 150 fps. If you keep all the proportions the same, you should get 150 fps even from "miniature" bow & arrow sets.
Variation of any of the the above will change the arrow speed. All other variables unchanged, altering the the bow length up or down from 66" decreases arrow speed, low set increases speed, reflex resulting in higher draw weight at brace height increases speed, shorter unbending tips decreases arrow speed, longer unbending tips increases speed up to a point, higher draw weight increases speed, longer draw increases speed, lighter arrows increase speed, heavier bowstrings decrease speed, lower brace height increases speed up to a point, and holding time at full draw will decrease speed the longer you hold and increase speed the shorter you hold. Also, drawing the bow slowly at first then quickly toward the end, with no hold time, increases speed.
All the bows I make these days (except for warbows) are shorter, with shorter draw lengths, and with less power than the example above. I just tested a 51" bow last week. It pulls 43 lbs and shoots 430 grain arrows with a 24" draw and 4-3/4" brace. I'm getting 140 fps on average and I'm satisfied. I could get 150 fps easy by using some of the "tricks" above but I don't.
Thanks much Jack,
this is what I was hoping to take away from this thread. I have been watching it to see what is the norm. I am not speed concerned but intrested what self bows are generally capable of ;) In the long run it doesn't matter how fast/slow your arrow goes as long as it hits it intended target.
Greg
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This has been a great thread. Lots of info
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The reason I got my chrony was not to see how my bows measure up to others , but how I can make them better . So in future ,if anyone see's me post a speed , it's only really comparable to the speed of my other bows. I release the same way I do when hunting or target shooting with only a 26" draw. I'm assuming it's fairly accurate because the results aren't abnormally high or low and are all within 5 lbs or so of each other. I think it will prove to be a valuable tool.
with a 50#@28" using 500gn. arrow I'm getting 155 -160 (with my 26" draw)
60# @28" using 550gn arrow (light) I get 165 avg.
The numbers seem up to par with my 65# FG recurve so I am content .
As has been said many times "they shoot where I point ,and thats what really matters" It makes it a lot easier to hook others onto the sport as well ,when you can get them to hit what they point at within 20 shots never having picked up a bow before.
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i'd rather shoot my arrows thru a deer, that out to be fast enough >:D
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Y'all still griping about speed...we shoot wooden sticks for Pete sakes....not metal n carbon infused limbs with wheels attached....so who cares ;) 8)
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What happened to accuracy. It's great to have a fast bow but if you are not accurate then you missed the game....!
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What happened to accuracy. It's great to have a fast bow but if you are not accurate then you missed the game....!
Absolutely right!
However a faster bow has less vertical drop to take into account at varying ranges. This is a major bonus when it comes to accuracy. I sometimes enter field archery competions where accuracy is all that matters and a fast bow (that is stable obviously) is a huge advantage. I normally enter my selfbows against the fiberglass brigade for some competition...it's quite fun beating them ;) ;) but it would certainly be harder if I had to shoot a slower bow. Ask anybody who target shoots at long range with rifles (i've done a bit myself) - do you want the faster bullets today or the slower ones....the answer will be fast ones please. Speed does matter!
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Here is a few numbers for some of my bows, I am pleased with all of them.
60" bamboo backed osage orange "D" (has taken some set) bow made in 2005 60#@ 27" 500 grain average cedar hunting arrow. 167 fps
63" osage orange static recurve bow made in 2012 39# @ 28" same arrow 148 fps
63.5" osage orange semi-flat "D" shaped bow made in 1991 54# @ 27" 156 fps
Nothing over the ordinary about these speeds but very satisfactory to me.
I agree by knowing how your bows shoot can help you make a better bow, but it is not overly important to me.