Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: IndianGuy on March 16, 2013, 03:19:10 pm
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Man I see all these awesome bows made from beautiful natural materials and someone spray's a clear coat finish or lacquer on them! what a waste!...The "shine" to me looks awefull, besides you can get the same effect by taking a smooth stone or piece of antler and rubbing the wood while pressing down, this will compress the fibers and make the wood shine, finished off with some good old lemon oil and you cant beat it!
When you seal a bow with a sealant it can't breath a bow needs to be able to breath, taking in some moisture and letting some out with the change of the seasons. The occasional oiling will make it weather resistant enough to use year around.
Just my opinion.
Indianguy
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I kind of like your opinion. I wouldn't say I hate modern finishes though. We are making primitive things in a modern era so it's to be expected. When someone puts a lot of time and energy into making something so beautiful it makes sense that they want it to be protected well.
What is the benefit of allowing the bow to breathe? Can you not shoot a bow that was sealed in humid time during a dry time or vice versa?
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+1 to what Tim said.
Also..I don't think even modern finishes seal out(or seal in) all moisture....the wood will always be allowed to "breathe" a bit. Correct me if im wrong here.
I don't mind the modern finishes much although I do prefer to see a more natural finish used. My last two bows, I've just been using wax and vegetable oil simply because I didn't care to go out and buy a commercial finish. Different strokes...
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Last thing I want is my bow absorbing moisture.
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PT, I never seal a bow up, in my opinion and this is just my opinion I do not want my bows to completely dry out and if they are sealed they can dry out, it might take a while if the bow had a descent moisture content when sealed but it will eventually dry out , and can become brittle over time and break. I have friends that make bows as well and several seal their bows, they have also had some (not all) of their sealed bows break with no explanation at all. I think this is due to the bows moisture content getting to zero. This might start a debate but I think a bow should have a small amout of moisture retained in the wood at all times and by not sealing the bow this allows the bow to breath however the oiling will prevent to much moisture from entering the wood. And yes I think that is very important to long bow life.
Again jmo.
Indianguy
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I absolutely love my shiney urethane covered bows.
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I have never done this but will try it soon....I was think of boot paste for water sealing, we have several different brands out here on the west coast, some with mink oil.
VMB
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I don't agree I'd rather use a modern finish to be sure my bow will be sealed from the elements and will be durable against moisture that's just my opinion plus I like the shine
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i like the shine of tru oil, thats the only modern finish i like. the rest i would prefer grease from an animal or something like that.
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Might as well add some carbon arrows with plastic veins to the mix! ;D ;D ;D LOL!
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I think there is some merit to what you are saying. My first 3 or 4 bows got no finish on them at all, and the couple I still have are fine. Now they are Bodark, so moisture uptake is not as big a concern as white woods, and I live in the great state of Texas where Bow season in Oct. can look a lot like Aug. hot and dry, so that has to be considered. My buddy tipistuff has never to my knowledge put a finish on any bow he's ever made (gotta be in the hundreds) and again, they all still shoot 20 years later. I finish all of mine now. No particular reason other than I like the look.
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Ionicmuffin I use to rub filtered bacon grease on my bows but dang it if I wouldnt get in my stand to hunt and get to smelling that and get hungry every time, thats why I switched to lemon oil.
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I think different styles of bows deserve different types of finishes. A more modern style of bow like a recurved american flatbow style with snake skins looks great all shined up with some tru-oil. And a Native American style bow deserves a hand rubbed grease finish. Modern style=modern finish, Primitive style=primitive finish. Just my opinion.
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that makes sense outlaw
I dont think i could stand the smell of bacon while hunting lol
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A couple thoughts. I'm no chemist so I'm just going off of the conventional wisdom that I have absorbed from other knowledgeable folks but my understanding is that there is no sealer primitive or modern that truly stops moisture exchange. If you have a bow in high RH it will raise it's moisture content to match, the finish only slows down the process. If it's dry then the same thing will happen in reverse but the bow will always change to eventually match the RH regardless of the finish. I think the bigger 'modern' culprit in drying out and breaking bows is AC and forced air heat.
My other thought is about how we view the work that we do and that others do. All these distinctions that we make about primitive and modern are fairly arbitrary and if we wanted to get really critical about it we wouldn't really have a community to speak of. Unless we are making our bows and arrows with locally sourced stone and bone tools from local wood that we harvested with said stone tools and not using a single modern material or convenience then we are all "guilty" of short cuts. I don't mind drawing a few basic distinctions so that we know that we are all talking about basically the same thing (i.e. PA limiting the discussion to bows who's working parts are made from natural materials) but beyond that I see it doing more harm than good. Of course you're entitled to you opinion on what's more appealing to you and what you view as more effective and of course this forum is a good place to discuss those ideas but be careful about being too dismissive because we are all in this for slightly different reasons and get different things out of the bows that we make use and share.
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Weylin if you couldn't tell this topic was written very lite hearted and with a mischievous grin! ;)
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Looks like we better walk away from these computers...leave our "modern" homes...strip off our "modern" clothes....walk into the woods and start over from scratch >:D ;D
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Looks like we better walk away from these computers...leave our "modern" homes...strip off our "modern" clothes....walk into the woods and start over from scratch >:D ;D
Agree !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Looks like we better walk away from these computers...leave our "modern" homes...strip off our "modern" clothes....walk into the woods and start over from scratch >:D ;D
Lead the way
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Looks like we better walk away from these computers...leave our "modern" homes...strip off our "modern" clothes....walk into the woods and start over from scratch >:D ;D
There has only been one person on this sight I would like to see without clothes, and I think she was a volunteer for a photo take......PLEASE PLEASE, PLEASE KEEP YOUR CLOTHES ON! :laugh:
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"There has only been one person on this sight I would like to see without clothes, and I think she was a volunteer for a photo take......PLEASE PLEASE, PLEASE KEEP YOUR CLOTHES ON! :laugh:"
OH MY GOODNESS LOL!!!!!!!!!!
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i hear you there weylin. One of my goals it to make a completely primitive made bow. Using a rock to cut the tree, to scrape the bark, to tiller the bow ect. Purely primitive would be cool. then kill a deer with it lol. thats what id like to do before im 30... got a little less than 12 years to accomplish this.
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:o@IG,I'm confused as to how the RH can get out of a sealed bow but the moisture not get in?
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Weylin if you couldn't tell this topic was written very lite hearted and with a mischievous grin! ;)
Sorry, it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes. I'm not sweating it. 8) :)
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i hear you there weylin. One of my goals it to make a completely primitive made bow. Using a rock to cut the tree, to scrape the bark, to tiller the bow ect. Purely primitive would be cool. then kill a deer with it lol. thats what id like to do before im 30... got a little less than 12 years to accomplish this.
Oh another 18 year old. We're taking over >:D
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IMO white wood bows look much better with a stain/finish. Tru glo is what I usually use. Plenty of options and colors to choose from without the shiny look.
So for me, stain/finish is a go, but no to shelac and the like. Not because they look modern, but I just don't like the way they look. Just too shiny I guess.
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Wood is a hygroscopic material (like a sponge) and will always shrink and swell with the RH and there is no finish man-made or natural that will stop that process. I learned that in the sign and guitar makin business. Any wood (cept plywood) will shrink and swell across the width of the grain (but not the length). It's more noticeable in wide panels and not necessarily in something the width of a bow. Lacquer finish in particular will crack and craze when taken repeatedly from a warm to cold to warm environment (example: old guitars with lacquer finishes that have years of gigging - notice the hairline cracks all over the finish). That's a temperature thing and not a moisture thing. Poly and oil finishes won't do that.
I can't decide which I like better, the nice guitar type finish or the natural finish. They both have their place (IMO) Most of the ones I've made are natural (cuz I'm lazy and they are less work) If I was makin one that was a historical replication or a native American style, it would have a natural type finish....just because....
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I'm a kinda "fence-sitter" on the subject of finishes.
I've seen some absolutely stunning bows on these hallowed pages that have been finished with high gloss, and other beautiful bows that were finished with grease or tung oil or parafin.
Some of the bows in here are such works of art that the perfect, blemish-free finish of a high gloss ployurathane finish, really accentuates every detail. Bows like that deserve a place on a wall - though they've been made for use.
I've never heard of/seen lemon oil - sounds interesting. Could I make it myself or would I need to buy it from a supermarket?
Also - am I correct in thinking someone recommended the use of olive oil in here a couple of years ago? I've got a lovely li'l osage bow that deserves a clear finish instead of the skins I got for it originally.
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Oh another 18 year old. We're taking over >:D
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oh i know! maybe its just the fad from the hunger games lol. also the avengers...and others.
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Randman I have to disagree.
With all the bowyers on here im suprised that nobody agrees with me on this opinion. Im not a novice bowmaker for sure and have made all types of bows over the last 20 years. Although I learned much from trial an error my early bowmaking knowledge was inspired and learned from an old bowmaker of 50 years, maybe things have changed about wood and the thoughts of the importance of a little moisture! little being the key word...Oh well keep making em boys I love em all. :)
Indianguy
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Lol someday the 14 yr olds will take over >:D
I agree, i think if your making a target bow tho u can make it as shiny as u want. I personally put 4-5 coats of tung oil on mine and then rub/sand it down bit so it is duller. I don't like making bows real pretty cuz it seems to take the practicallness out've em. Like i'd rather hang them on a wall then go out and shoot with them every day.
I wonder if burnishing with an antler or whatever could actually make a durable sealent (if you burnish extensively.) It seems to put a pretty smooth type of 'finish' on the wood...
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I think your all nuts...I just rub dirt on mine and they work just fine. OK...JUST KIDDING!!!
JMO, I use a pine pitch and grease mix. Half Eye sent me some with a molle he made for me at one time. I've used it since.
Keeps em conditioned and breathing.
Thanks Half Eye
Ron
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Not sure which of my statements you disagree with Eric ??? There's a few in there ;)
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What about urushi as a waterproof finish? It is catalyzed and cured by moisture rather than oxygen and from what I have read it is completely impervious to moisture once cured. Anybody try it?
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wikipidia says that it is used for bows. Im sure it was used by the Chinese
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I used to seal my bows with melted animal fat, but when the dog ate my favorite hunting bow, I switched to tru oil! Dale
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I think different styles of bows deserve different types of finishes. A more modern style of bow like a recurved american flatbow style with snake skins looks great all shined up with some tru-oil. And a Native American style bow deserves a hand rubbed grease finish. Modern style=modern finish, Primitive style=primitive finish. Just my opinion.
+1
Jon
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I agree to a point, but if the wood is oiled and sealed with a poly clear coat this should keep moisture at bay, I would think.
As far as Primitive goes we do use Titebond glue and some even use Super glue..! I would think that a 100% primi bow would be glued using hide glue, and using leather and natural twine for handles and such.
Another thought Primitive people were not steam bending the bows, flipping tips etc....etc...
A lot of bows on this site are more along the lines of the Medieval time period of Europe and the far east.
Are we missing something here...? ??? Maybe it should be called Medieval Archery..! Most Larpers are practising the same thing.
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Ya'll are nuts... I'm stickin' to my high gloss poly and Massey Epoxy finishes >:D
...Then again I'm not really a traditionalist....
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I think a primitive finished bow will dry out the same as a modern finish
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I'm privy to buffalo fat from a local hide tanner. I usually render it a little and apply liberally to my bows. They seem to be doing well. Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
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I'm not even sure that the assumption all wood exchanges moister is actually correct. Take the Mary Rose bows found underwater. I believe some have even been shot! Also finishing oil from liberon makes this claim "A most dramatic demonstration of the qualities of this finish was given by Jan Sanders who, having turned a small oak bowl, applied three coats of finishing oil, allowed it to dry and then poured a quantity of blue water based wood dye into the bowl. After gently swilling it around, Jan poured the dye out and wiped the bowl dry. Needless to say no trace of the dye could be detected on the inside of the bowl. This oil will give good resistance against water, alcohol and food acid marks and will give a matt to satin finish dependent upon the number of coats. A gloss can be achieved by applying a paste wax. Also approved safe for toys. Coverage: 1litre to 8 - 12mē. Drying: approximately 5 hours."
My feeling is that modern finishes DO seal a bow almost completely, if applied correctly. And I for one like this, if my canoe capsizes I want to know that my bow will be fine after a little dunk. Some of the new floor finishes are even more bomb proof!
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I use modern steel tools and abrasives when I make my bows. No one would confuse my bows with the "real" thing and so I use modern finishes because they look good and provide protection. Now if I were to go to the trouble of making a bow with all stone tools then I would certainly use something like bear fat to seal it.
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No bow hunting allowed in the UK so no problem with super shiney finishes.
Not used polly since I discovered the wonders of tru-oil. Fantastic stuff except storage of the damn stuff.
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I'm with Indianguy. Shiney bows suck >:D. Almost as much as brightly colored crested arrows with plastic nocks.
Its funny when guys cry and whine about a broke or lost arrow. Haha but I hear it everytime at 3D shoots. Shoot to shoot, have fun and make more. Whats the big Deal.
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I still love my shiney bows, my brightly painted arrows and my plastic nocks. Even more now.
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I think a lot of it depends on the reason that you came to primitive archery. The reason for was I was so intruiged that it was possible to make something so powerful and lethal completely out of natural materials that I can harvest from my yard for FREE! The free part is what really got me. Also, I was thinking about when/if modern society collapses what kind of materials will I have at hand to make something I could hunt with in the long run. Obviously whether your bows are shiny or not it's the same principle but that stuff costs money and a trip to the store. I don't like spending money or going to the store. I'm probably not going to shine any of my bows up in the future but I do think they look pretty. What a great concept. Work/time=free stuff. lol
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I'm not even sure that the assumption all wood exchanges moister is actually correct. Take the Mary Rose bows found underwater. I believe some have even been shot! Also finishing oil from liberon makes this claim "A most dramatic demonstration of the qualities of this finish was given by Jan Sanders who, having turned a small oak bowl, applied three coats of finishing oil, allowed it to dry and then poured a quantity of blue water based wood dye into the bowl. After gently swilling it around, Jan poured the dye out and wiped the bowl dry. Needless to say no trace of the dye could be detected on the inside of the bowl. This oil will give good resistance against water, alcohol and food acid marks and will give a matt to satin finish dependent upon the number of coats. A gloss can be achieved by applying a paste wax. Also approved safe for toys. Coverage: 1litre to 8 - 12mē. Drying: approximately 5 hours."
My feeling is that modern finishes DO seal a bow almost completely, if applied correctly. And I for one like this, if my canoe capsizes I want to know that my bow will be fine after a little dunk. Some of the new floor finishes are even more bomb proof!
There is one very big problem with that test you described. It deals with liquid water, not water vapour. Liquids can not diffuse through solids, but vapors can, regardless of how well sealed the solid may be.
If you have a perfectly sealed tank of propane (no leaks), and you leave it for long enough, that propane will diffuse right through the steel walls of the container. All there needs to be is a concentration gradient, so as long as the concentration of propane outside is lower than the concentration of propane inside, the gaseous propane will diffuse through.
The same thing happens with bows, and water vapour. It takes time, but it does happen, and there is no finish that you can put on a bow that will seal it nearly as well as a propane tank so it happens much more rapidly in bows.
Moisture will move in and out of a bow regardless of how well it is sealed. If the bow is dryer than the air, moisture will diffuse in, if it is wetter than the air, moisture will diffuse out. You can slow it down, but you can't stop it.
Summary: You can stop liquid water from soaking in, but not water vapor from diffusing in.
Knowing that, I can't agree that modern finishes cause bows to dry out. They might let in moisture slower than primitive finishes, but they would also release it slower. Both kinds of finish will maintain some sort of equilibrium with their environment.
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The concept of Laquer is thousands of years old.
The active ingredient in Shelac is bug poop, casings.
Various oils are widely available in nature.
Woods will breath through a mild amount of finish. Dipped in an epoxy type coating no.
You can also get that shine from coathing in wax and polishing the wax.... also naturaly available.
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If you use "natural" finishes do you make them yourselves? That would be the trick I think. Render some bearfat, raid a beehive and gather the wax, or make your own lemon oil. BTW it takes about 1500 lemons to make a pound worth of lemon oil and you need one hell of a press to get it out. Maybe not very primitive, probably about as primitive as shellac or Tung oil. I can get a a pretty shiny finish from Tung oil (made from the nut of the Tung tree), but I've never tried to get the oil out of a Tung nut.
If we're gonna be primitive about what we use, than perhaps we should be primitve about making it.
Gabe
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I my younger days, I'd make a b ow or 2 and then seal it with grease. Lightly heat that grease in with a hair dryer and you nave a very good finish. The arrows I hunt with are tipped with trades wrapped with sinew as are the nocks. The arrow is sealed with deer grease. It makes an excellent moisture retardant. Keeps the rain water out. The sinew still gets wet unless I coat with pitch. As I've aged I've gone more and more to the canned finishes. I know it is unnatural as are my B 50's but.... We draw our own lines in the sand. :)Jawge
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We draw our own lines in the sand. :)Jawge
Well said George!
"Primitive" is a relative term. We are all "primtive" compared to future generations 500 years from now. We are all "modern" compared to past generations of 500 years ago. We just choose to make bows that are similar to the bows made in our past. Have fun with it and draw your own line in the sand.
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Dang Indian Guy,
You sure know how to get-em goin... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Had this discussion so many times over the years. As it relates to the Plains Indian material culture, so much of what they were using was, by the mid 1800's or so, acquired through trade with "European" traders. This includes their paints. One can only ride the "primitive" high horse so far.
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Man this is still going on. :o Glad that was just your opinion IndianGuy,cause we all know how opinions are,everyone has one. Like Jawges said we all draw our on lines and I have no problem where anyones lines are as long as they don't try and draw mine, ;) I like shinny bow or dull bow finished with TruOil or bear fat,I like them all. :) Thanks for keeping it civil. :)
Pappy
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I just wish I could get everybody else to do it right, ...like me. >:D >:D >:D
OneBow