Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: stringstretcher on February 13, 2013, 05:07:32 pm
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Last year at the classic, Kerry B gave me a stave to mess around with while I was there. We laid the bow out, cut it out, got it floor tillered and then put it on one of Pappy's curls and heat straightened and put reflex into it. When we took the stave off the curl, on limb was fine, the other still had some deflex in it. Needless to say, I put the stave away and just today decided to try this stave on my new curl.
So I go out, get one limb heated and clamped, then had to go get more clamps. Now this first limb that I heated and clamped was the limb with the deflex. Looking good so far. Got back with more clamps, heated and clamped the other limb down and just let it sit out in the garage for about 6 hours since it was only 40 degrees and it was plenty cool to take off the form. Here it is on the form all clamped up
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/bowoffform001_zpscd4e8b06.jpg)
Here is the limb that did take some reflex when we did it at Pappy's. Looking really good right?
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/bowoffform003_zpscbe37bcc.jpg)
Now here is the limb that had the deflex in it and did not take any bend at Pappy's. WHAT?
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/bowoffform002_zps642227f0.jpg)
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You could shoot pool with this limb. Why, after two different heating, and almost a year later will this limb not take heat and bending? I am lost here.
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I think it might be saying, "Floor tiller me. I'm too thick to bend!" Jawge
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1> not enough heat
2> not heated up for a long enough time
Honestly Charlie, Ive never met a piece of osage that wouldnt bend and stay bent. The wood should be hot enough you cant touch it.
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that is weird Charlie.that looked like a good stave when we was at pappys.i get alot of wood from Kerry and have never had that problem yet.i'll be putting one on the form in the next day or two that i got from him.this stave is two or three years old though.yours was pobably cut in 2010.
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1> not enough heat
2> not heated up for a long enough time
Honestly Charlie, Ive never met a piece of osage that wouldnt bend and stay bent. The wood should be hot enough you cant touch it.
+1
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I'm with Jawge. The photo makes it look as if the outer 1/3 to 1/2 of that limb looks a wee bit thicker than the other, especially about 3/4 they way out. All wood has a personality. I'd say this limb is stubborn.
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He doesnt have much wood left and he will be making a 40# bow, he is well past floor tillering stage. Im not sure the thickness is at fault. It can vary an 1/4" from end to end and still come off the caul balanced in reflex.
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That is definitely not to thick to bend with dry heat...and there is no such thing as "stubborn" osage with heat if done right...its operator error of not enough heat..its as simple as that. I've corrected a lot of highly deflexed limbs into high reflex with osage with great success...n these bows have been shot a lot and still hold a reflexed profile.
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Let me try and clear up a couple of things if it will help. the bow is past floor tiller. That is one reason I stopped on it because it will in no way make a hunting weight bow (40lbs or up). It will some day hopefully make a great kids bow though.
The first guy that heated it with me at the Classic, has way more years than I and a lot of others in working with this wood and it was a mystery to him as well. The stave also developed cracks through the thick part of the handle, as if to say it was still greed wood. At least that is what several commented on. This is in no way bashing a stave, so lets get that straight right off.
The heat that was put on it the first time was by the more experienced bow maker, as I was then and still am learning each time I do things in making bows, and the help was greatly appreciated. It is just the results that were not rewarding.
As to my heating, guys it was hot. Hot enough I could not hold my fingers on it with out getting burnt. And even after every clamp was put on, it went back over each previous clamp with the heat gun. And after the entire length was done, I again went over the limb several times with the heat gun and assured myself that it was hot.
The other limb, was done exactly the same way, heated the same amount to the touch, and clamped, reheated and on an on.
I am sure it is operator error blackhawk, but two operators making the exact same mistake on the exact same limb, to me is doubtfull. Possible, but doubtfull.
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Its a first for me Charlie. Im stumped then.
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Me too Pearl, and that is all I am asking to try and learn here. This has nothing at all to do with who, what, when and where, and never will be. I have heated a few bows myself, and have been around a LOT of bow that have been heated, and not once have I seen wood come out like this, not once, from anyone. It might just be one of the mysteries that last a life time, but it sure has me puzzled. Oh well, there are plenty more pieces of wood to bend ;)
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If this will help maybe, here is the stave, just after laying it out, and cutting it down last year at the classic. It was floor tillered after this and heated.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/staveone_zps9f9dbfec.jpg)
The top limb in the next two photos is the culprit.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/stavetwo_zpsa6d267ec.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/stavethree_zps3d6f7307.jpg)
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I have had a few give me fits if one end came right off the ground/stump with fatter rings while the other end was 66" up the tree. But nothing I couldnt beat. Its a puzzler. Bring that bugger to Classic and lets see what we can do with it.
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Thanks Pearl,,,,but I don't think this one will make it back, cause something IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH IT....lol.... >:D
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Burn it Chuck! Burn it! Heck your sitting on a GOLD mine, grab another one!
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Here's my macho male ego talking ;)...
"Set it aside,n bring that lil b@#$% down with you to the classic,and ill show her who's her daddy" >:D
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Make the limb with the most reflex the bottom limb. ;)
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Pat thats too simple a fix...its got to be more complex! Afterall we are talking primitive bows here mister.
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Roflmbo. I get the hint, I get the hint...lol. Just a learning curve for this old mindless soul. It just might show up at the classic blackhawk and Pearl, you never know. And burn perfectly afflicted osage? Never....some where out there is a billet to match each one... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Charlie, how did you start off with it on the caul? Did you clamp it at the handle and make sure it was secure and even?
When I put one on my reflex caul I get it all evened up and clamp the crap out of the handle area so it doesn't budge. I'll even put a bar clamp on the opposite limb that I am starting on. I won't crank down on it, but I'll put enough tension that it won't move when I start reflexing the other limb. Maybe yours pivoted a little on the caul and one limb got reflexed a lot more than the other. Just a thought.
That stave did start out with some uneveness between the limbs. You should have cut it in half at the handle, rotated one limb 180 degrees and then spliced it back together ;D
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Yeah Clint it had a funny bend in it from the get go. And yes, there were three clamps on the handle before I started any heating. I also did like Pappy taught me to pull the tip down and clamp it before heating the limb. That puts some stress on the limb and allows the heat to help take it out as you come down it. It is just one of those pieces of wood that does not like to listen. I will show it the jointer, planner, sander tomorrow and see if I can give it an attitude adjustment???????
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Try generously rubbing it down with olive oil !
Heat it again and use more oil when you think its about hot enough, then heat some more but not to the pint it catches fire !
If that does not bring it around then burn it ! >:D
The oil should make a difference !
Have fun !!
Guy
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The entire stave was rubbed down graciously with cooking oil, if that makes any difference. To the point that it was good and wet before I started heating it. Would the olive oil hold in more heat?
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Burn it Chuck! Burn it!
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lol. Don't know how to start a fire.
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Thats a lot of deflex to heat out, I would heat it up again and bend it quite a bit further than where you want it to end up. Sometimes it may take 3 or 4 heating sessions to heat a lot of bend out. If that doesnt work then I think I would probably do like Pat said and go ahead and tiller it out as is.
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The easy way out would be to straighten out the deflex on the other one and have two straight limbs
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You got three good answers there, ether make half a caul with more bend in it , straighten out the other limb , or tiller as is . I heated one a month ago to the point the wood was starting to scorch in order to get it straight , the string was over two inches off center and I figured it would be a good peace to see how much heat I could get away with now I need to get a peace of antler glued on the tip ( big crack Down the middle of one tip and my nock will cut into it).
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Thanks all for the suggestions. This has definitely been a leaning experience. I am going to try and heat it one more time, just the straight limb and see what happens. If it does not bend, then I will see what the bow will become like it is.
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It might be sayin'
"Dude if you spend the time jiggin me up and heatin' me, at least let me rest on the caul for a couple of days before un clampin' me."
Del
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That just might happen this time Del.... ;)
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Leaving it clamped for a few days ain't gonna help a lick if there wasn't enough heat...you could leave it clamped for a few years and it'll still bounce back up if there wasn't enough heat put to it. I pm'ed Charlie last night wanting to know who exactly helped him,and that answered my question. No offense to that person but I know a lot of these guys and how they build specifically.
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Likes been said,if it is floor tillered even then it will come out if you put enough
heat to it,you don't have to burn it but it has to be hot,I see this a lot with folks straighting bows at the shop,just don't get them hot enough or like Clint said ,not clamped good in the handle area and as you tighten the clamp to put some bend in or out it is pivoting and not really pulling.I didn't help you last year on that one did I Charlie ? if so sorry. :) :) Taking out deflex usuall isn't a problem. :)
Pappy
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No Pappy, you did not. And I am not blaming anyone on this at all. I am just trying to learn why some wood does what it does. I am sure it will eventually bend >:( >:( >:(
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I know what's wrong, Charlie Ole Boy.
Ya went out an bought a cheap heat gun, didn't cha? :)
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No sir I did not. I got one of those nice yellow ones, to match my wood color. That way, the wood can not see it coming.....
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Well just because of my nature and not liking to be outdone by a simple piece of wood,,,lol, she is back on the curl. I ensured that the handle and fade section was locked down good and tight. I went and cut some more pressure blocks and used them against the wood better this time. I heated it until the woods edges and belly got a lot darker than the other limb that took the heat, clamped it down and could even smell the wood from the heat as I got close to the tip which I got that a litter warmer than I want to, but I want it to bend too. So I am going to leave it on the curl until tomorrow morning and let it sit in the garage tonight where it will get good and cold and then take the clamps off and see. Only time will tell now.
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Sounds like you got plenty of heat on it this time. I dont know about the other guys but for me the smell of the wood is one of the main indicators I use when heat treating or bending wood. Like blackhawk said if it doesnt get hot enough it doesnt matter how long you leave it clamped. Ive heated hickory and osage both and taken the clamps off within 5 minutes and still had almost zero springback. Its all about the how much heat and putting it in the right place.
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When heat bending only that gun should be on low and never closer than 4-5". It needs a slow, deep heat to hold the best and move the best. A normal length bow should take no less than 45-60 minutes to do both limbs complete. You dont have to wait if you dont want to Charlie, when its cool to the touch its good to go. Your call buddy. If it takes a bunch of heat to move it all, then a tad of residual heat an hour later sure isnt going to affect it. I wait 30-40 minutes and keep going, never had one go boom or pull out.
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I've had Yew shift on me despite being left overnight (it was steam bent) >:(.
D'uh, C'mon guys it's self evident that leaving it clamped won't make any difference if it didn't get hot enough!
BUT... it won't do any harm to leave it clamped up for a day or so unless you are busting a gut to get it done.
Why risk spoiling your work through haste?...After all it was probably haste that stopped it getting hot enough in the first place.
I've done it often enough and learned my lesson.
Of course I reserve the right to be talking out of my backside, but I'll still be leaving any bending on the caul for a least 2 days.
Del
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Charlie ya want to bend it a little farther than you want to end up with cause it will spring back a little, not much but a little.
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Del...yew and osage are two totally different animals IMO...and steam bending and heat bending are two totally different animals as well...and trying to compare steamed yew to dry heating osage is irrelevant....once that osage is cool with dry heat you can unclamp..there's no benefit to leaving it clamped any more past once its cooled.
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Del...yew and osage are two totally different animals IMO...and steam bending and heat bending are two totally different animals as well...and trying to compare steamed yew to dry heating osage is irrelevant....once that osage is cool with dry heat you can unclamp..there's no benefit to leaving it clamped any more past once its cooled.
I shall flagelate myself with briars and rub wood ash into my fur immediately.
Del
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Make sure to be using osage thorns for your briars del....lol :laugh: ...but you are very right about leaving steamed yew clamped and it wanting to move back...I love yew but it does have a tendency to "shift" (depending on the piece)...and can be frustrating. But I've never had any issues with properly dry heated and corrected osage shifting back to its original position....another reason why osage is better than yew ;) :laugh: >:D
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I agree Blackhawk, Osage is 10 times better than Yew. But only if it's 10 year old well seasoned Osage:) :laugh: >:D
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Ok....I guess you can say I am just full of it or what ever, but something is definitely different on this piece of wood guys and girls. I put it back on the form, but reversed it end for end just because. I clamped the handle down good and tight, lots of pressure. I heated the limb in short sections at a time and worked my way out to the tip. And I got it HOT. I mean HOT. Here is the limb clamped down under pressure.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/secondheating001_zps6f9ef4be.jpg)
This is how the limb came back after taking the clamp off. I took about 1" of the reflex, that is all. Still almost perfectly straight except for the last 3 or 4 inches.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/secondheating002_zps68734e04.jpg)
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Did I get it hot enough, I kind of think so from looking at these, and by the way it felt as I was doing it.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/secondheating007_zpse9873d82.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/secondheating008_zpsa3ecaf26.jpg)
And as you can see. Almost no reflex at all.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/secondheating011_zpsd9296a2e.jpg)
Here is the opposite limb just laid back on the curl. Almost perfect.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/STRINGSTRETCHER/2013%20bows/secondheating010_zps5bce7c3d.jpg)
Totally baffling to say the least. But anyway. I am going to see about getting it tillered out and see what happens.
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Like Ive been saying along.....BURN IT Chuck! BURN IT!
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I did, I did, I did....lol
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Just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that the handle is holding the limb from bending as much as the other limb by the way the stave is it self. Maybe a wedge under the fade and back towards the cent of the handle would let the limb come over more.....like I said just thinking out loud.
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Yup, now you thinking outside the box. If it wont bend and stay, shim it and over bend it farther. You may want to let this one suck moisture for a day or so. I bet its getting tired by now.
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Thanks Pearl. Yeah, this one is getting the silent treatment for a while....cause I am tired of taking to (at) it :D
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This is one of those times where I totally detest the forums.....its so hard to try and explain everything in proper detail,and great length,and I can't see over your shoulder as to what exactly your doing.
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No problem at all Chris. And thanks again to every one for their comments and suggestions. Hey it's a learning curve. We all have to go through it at some point. No one gets it right the first time and every time. I will set it aside, walk away from it for a while, and some day pick it back up again. Nothing is a loss if you learn something ;) ;)
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I don't think you are bending it far enough ole boy:)
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It will be Roy, the next big old oak I find to wrap it around >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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LOL now calm down Charlie:) I also think your problem is right at the fade outside the handle, I would put spacers behind the handle and just heat that area and get her bent there first. Here is Blackhawks form and my yew bow when we reflexed the tips. Ya see where we had plenty more room to bend it if we needed too?
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That form is about toast...its seen a lot of hot action the last few years >:D :laugh:
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I don't care! I have a new one exactly like it... :) ;)
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I don't care! I have a new one exactly like it... :) ;)
Sweet ...ill stop on by to exchange it for a new one ;)
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Yeah Roy you are right, I am sure it is in the handle/fade area holding things up. This will continue to be a good rainy day project ;) ;) ;)
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Chicken Hawk, I have a nice oak board here. Next time you come over we can make you a new one. Or if ya want it the same as your old form, I can go ahead and make it for you. Your call, son:)
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Thats ok Roy...I got all this yellow looking wood laying around if/when I need to build a new one :o