Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sleek on February 11, 2013, 12:53:01 pm
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I recently found myself doing research on making gun stocks. I came across this guy who seems very knowledgeable. I know its about gun stocks, but allot of this crosses over to bows. The part I am referring to is in the first few minutes of the video. I warn you, he is not entertaining. I would like to see what people think on what he has to say?
ACK! I forgot to add the link... lol
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CFsQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkaLRQifGWaM&ei=MhoZUbeOJOm0yAGwl4G4DA&usg=AFQjCNFRFsmGBBbghxdrAENM9p4OIH3chQ&bvm=bv.42080656,d.aWc
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As far as I'm concerned there is a large difference between dry wood and seasoned wood. Seasoned wood is more stable, has better springiness and will take less set than dry wood. This goes cfor bow wood but arrow wood too.
Most of the wood I use for bows is at least 2 to 3 years old and I have some staves over 10 years. The older the better.
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As far as I'm concerned there is a large difference between dry wood and seasoned wood. Seasoned wood is more stable, has better springiness and will take less set than dry wood. This goes cfor bow wood but arrow wood too.
Most of the wood I use for bows is at least 2 to 3 years old and I have some staves over 10 years. The older the better.
Yup. After 100 or so bows, Im picking up what Pat is throwing down. I may have disagreed a few years ago. I know better now!
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thank you,I think I get it.
chuck
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You know, i wasnt even aware there was a difference until I saw this.
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Yep I agree with Pat. Seasoned wood tends to make a little better bow. I will say that just cause a big stave has been seasoned for 3-5 years it dosent mean that if you cut a bow blank out of it it's dry and ready to tiller. It's just seasoned wood that depending on the size of the stave and where it's been kept and for how long, has equalized to it's environment. So if it's seasoned for 10 years but it's been outside in the barn that whole time and it's hot and muggy outside when you decide to work it chances are it still needs to dry.
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So it would follow then that the longer a wood seasons the better it would be? I think that may well be true for yew, osage and black locust. Whitewoods degrade quickly though. I'm not sure there is a benefit to using say hickory that is 10 years old. Jawge
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Does a roughed out bow season faster ( or need less time to season ) that a full stave?
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I think you're right George. Three year seasoned hick is probably better than one though still I guess.
Sleek- I'd say wood seasons at the same rate no matter what it's size while wood DRYS faster in smaller forms.
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I'd like to understand why you guys have these opinions. What is the physiological difference between a dried and seasoned stave (more stable, springy, and less set?), why does that difference occur, what are the conditions that create a noticeable difference, and what about that difference would make a "better" bow? That also leads to how better is defined in this case.
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No clue doc. Your over my head now. I rely on experience and not science.
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I guess maybe 'seasoned' indicates complete and thorough drying, but there is probably chemical changes or hardening of other components besides moisture evaporation.
I agree with Will, less volumne of wood will dry quicker; however, that's not always desireable. If a freshly cut stave is brought into a dry house ( or similiar climate) it is more inclined to twist and possible crack through.
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I know lumber can have internal stresses, heck, all big pieces of wood, staves and lumber alike, can have hidden internal stresses. This piece of cedar was cut from a perfectly straight board, it warped as I was cutting it on a bandsaw I recently bought (first one I ever owned, I am in love with it, ;D).
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1293.jpg)
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I see it as the dry wood is without moisture but in seasoned wood the cell walls and resins in the wood have hardened over time. This probably makes the wood more brittle but more resillient also. I have no scientific proof of this but over many years and many bows I have noticed these differences
The same goes with arrows. You can make arrows out of dry wood but you get better results, less warping and stays straighter, from wood that is 2 or more years old.
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As far as I know old seasoned wood can become rotten and brittle over time. Having said that the time window between the tree having been cut down and milled can be very short. Of course it varies from species to species. Some wood that has been kiln and dried is just as good as the same stuff that has been sitting for 2 years. 7% to 11% moisture content should be the case for any wood that you are working on.
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Pat you ,Pappy and I and a few others have been preaching this for a long spell now!
Some of these youngens are starting to see what we have been talking about !
Woods with more oily resins take longer to season then woods that are less so !
Of course this is relative to each piece of wood and not hard numbers !
Pearly set aside one of your yellow wood bows for 20 yrs then get it out and tell me it is the same as when you set it aside ! Of course I may not be here for you to talk to by then but I will still be talking to you and so will the wood !
Take care kids and listen to your elders !
Guy
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Is the desirable seasoning effect more noticeable in darker (with more resins) woods?
CAUTION: the following paragraph contains one big wild ass guess.
Perhaps there is a moisture level (or some other condition) that is optimal for the resins to saponify? I have observed that you can force dry (evaporate volatiles) in resins used in finishes, but "dry" is not always the same as properly cured. Perhaps we can learn how to season staves more effectively by controlling conditions for ideal seasoning. Once we bring moisture levels down enough to prevent deterioration, perhaps there is an ideal R.H. or temperature to hold at for some time before a final reduction to the finished M.C.? Maybe some other physical condition we can control will help the resins reach the desired state sooner?
As Pat observed, scientific proof is scarce about seasoning or quantifying its affects, however as I consider experience to be the best teacher, I would like to ask if any body has any "do's" or "don'ts" about the methods they use to season, that they would like to share?
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So a massive tree trunk is under lots of stress, and it take a while to unravel it self. What about saplings and smaller branches? I dont imagine they are under the same stresses larger trees are under, so is seasoning these needed?
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Dry is dry. I see no particular advantage in letting wood "season" longer than it needs to. As for resins, they would only exist in the outermost layer of the wood which is generally scrapped off when making a bow. The inner wood only stores water.
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I was reading a book on Chester Stevenson, he said that when seasoning yew, that the stave should e turned every six months for 6 years. And the moisture entering and exiting the wood would 'temper' the stave.
But as far as Bryce is concerned. Dry is dry.
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To each their own,it's like arguing over instinctive shooting or which wood is best,
or what set verses string follow is,heating wood or not heating wood, no point you ant going to change anyones mind ,as for me I will take seasoned wood over just dry wood every time if I have a choice. :)
Pappy
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Pappy-
What would you want to see or know, to make that choice?
Bob
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Age. ;) don't want anything less that 3 years and prefer 10 or more, if it has been cared for properly. :) :)
Pappy
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In my limited experience of making bows to some of you guys.Maybe 50 or so made for me.I really think there is something to wood seasoning well before it is made into a bow.Properly cared for of course.Out of the elements inside off the ground.Hedge people know of friends making bows from fence posts that are over 30 years old.
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When wood is dried it will still absorb moisture during humid periods and then release it again during dry seasons. This effect diminishes every subsequent time. A seasoned stave will not regain the moisture that a freshly dried stave will and therefore is "springier". The heat treating or tempering has the same effect.
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I know luthiers generally feel there is a difference in seasoned wood verses just dry wood. I hear alot of guitar players claim that one of the reasons a guitar will play better overtime is due to the resins crystallizing. I think a big name company tried to figure this out one time, why this was, and came to the conclusion that on the cellular level, little pockets of moisture held by the plant cells broke overtime, and released these little things which supposedly rattled or somehow made the guitar more resonant. Something like that. I can't reference any of that though.
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Gordon, Really? With woods with heartwood in particular the colour is resin.
Wood becomes denser as it seasons because it shrinks through moisture cycling. That's why tool handles become smaller over time, even if they were "dry" when originally fit.
A person only needs to try to whittle a piece of firewood stored in a barn for a few years and then a HD board to demonstrate the difference between dry and seasoned wood.
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Like Pappy said it is the time envolved that seasons wood. If you keep your wood in a dry area, over time it will season. I have even cut dead standing osage that has been dead so long the sapwood had totally decayed and fallen off. The heartwood was way harder and more brittle than fresh cut or even year old dry osage. The coloration alone showed a long seasoning time.
Everyone has their own ideas about this and what everyone else says their belief is is what they go with. For me, I will take one well seasoned stave over 10 fresh cut ones.
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For you yellow is king folks
If its still yellow when you cut into it ,it is not seasoned !
Completely seasoned Osage is brown all the way through !!!
Let's see what kind of arguments that statement brings !
Guy
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I'd love to try some brown through and through osage, Guy. You got any to spare? ;D
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Well each to his own. But as far as I have been able to tell there are no magical qualities imparted to wood by drying it for longer than necessary. Once it is dry it is dry.
Regarding Osage, you can scrap off the brown layer and it will be yellow again - still dry...
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Sleek, see what ya started now? LOL :laugh:
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Told ya, break out the pop corn. ;) ;D
Pappy
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Regarding Osage, you can scrap off the brown layer and it will be yellow again - still dry...
Not necessarily Gordon. This is the color of older hedge posts all the way through. This particular one is the bow I made for Sadie last year. I've been picking up old posts because I'm convinced seasoned is better. Josh
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For you yellow is king folks
If its still yellow when you cut into it ,it is not seasoned !
Completely seasoned Osage is brown all the way through !!!
Let's see what kind of arguments that statement brings !
Guy
This is true. Here are a couple scrap pieces from about 2 or 3 years ago. After cutting into them, you can see it is just as brown on the inside as on the outside. The first picture are the exposed ends.
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1315.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1316.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1317.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN1318.jpg)
Edit: Although I guess the small piece might not be the best example, as it is still has a more oxidized skin.
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This is always a touchy subject among bowyers for some reason.We are a cantankerous lot.
I really have not noticed a difference in whitewoods. No osage or yew grows in NH so I haven't cut any of that so can't say about those. Any BL I used to cut back in the day never really hung around long enough to "season". I was a voracious user of wood so it barely dried before becoming a bow.
Those of you who say seasoned wood for bows is better should tell why. To say that wood is denser once it seasons needs to be explained. The specific gravity of water is 1 while the SG of osage is 0.8. Doesn't it follow then that once the moisture escapes then the SG will go down? Specific gravity is really the same numerical value as the density. Any shrinking will cause an increase in density but I bet shrinking is done after drying is complete so not sure about why that is an issue.
I will say that some of the quickest bows I've made have been board bows made from kiln dried red oak boards.
So why is seasoned wood better to some of you?
Jawge
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SEASONED OSAGE IS NUMERO UNO!!!!!!! PERIOD....<--------thats a big period >:D 8)
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There does seem to be a difference in the aging color of old osage. Why would that affect ow quality, Gun Doc? Jawge
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Come on! Please explain why it makes a better bow, blackhawk. Jawge
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Ok...ill play along with this game..I'm a sucker for this stuff ;D
So Jawge...why was your fastest bows made of red oak boards? And just because they were faster does that make them better? And if you feel a faster bow is a better bow then did you actually Chronograph them all using the same grains per pound arrows? What is the definition of a "better bow"? Can we define this and all come to the same agreement?
Dont ya just love it when someone answers a question with a question >:D....I hate that..lol :laugh: but hopefully you understand my point ;) and you know I like to mess around in "sticky" threads
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I leave the science end up to smart guys like Ryan. I just build 'em one after another year round and notice differences each time. Why things happen is way past my dumb head. I just see and feel them to form my opinions each bow each wood.
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Like I said, a can of worms, How about this ,I just like it better,no real reason and I certainly can't explane any scientific reason, failed it that class. Over the years
I have just seemed to turn out better bows for seasoned wood and have been blessed that I didn't have to use much of anything else after the first few years of stock piling. Seem to be more stable and tiller hardly every changes after the first shoot in. I will make one out of anything and have quick dried wood that done fine,but still stick to my guns,if I have a choice I will take seasoned everytime. :)
Pappy
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Wish I had some to share with you Pat !
You know how the better stuff seams to disappear first I'm sure !
Matt may have some maybe he will share with us ! >:D >:D
Guy
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I'm surprised no one has tried to differienate between wood taken from a 20 year old tree vs. a 200 year old tree. An Amish lumberman once told me that trees are just like men--they start out young, have a prime, then become old, gnarly and hollow before they die. Is older always better?
Would you like extra butter and salt on your popcorn Pappy?
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blackhawk, I don't own a chrono but they shot further with the same arrow. I have a good idea why board bows are good shooters...namely flat backs and flat bellies. Let's leave that can of worms closed. No,I don't think faster is better. But I think I'll leave that can of worms closed too. LOL. "Better? I know that's my point define it. I said I haven't noticed a difference between seasoned wood and dried wood. I have little expereince with seasoned wood. It usually doesn't hang around long enough here but as I get older it does seem to get seasoned more. :)
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Told ya, break out the pop corn. ;) ;D
Pappy
I was thinking the same thing :)
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"Prefer" is good, Pappy and Blackhawk. Actually, "better" is good too. I was just wondering why y'all felt that way. :) Jawge
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If excessive drying improves the performance characteristics of wood, then it stands to reason that the performance of wooden bows made from “freshly” dried wood should improve over time. I’ve made a lot of such bows over the years and have not noticed any such effect.
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Pearl Drums said the smartest thing in this thread so far.
Why things happen is way past my dumb head.
I agree wit ya Pearly Boy.. :) :)
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There does seem to be a difference in the aging color of old osage. Why would that affect ow quality, Gun Doc? Jawge
I wish I could give you a good definitive answer, the fact is that I can't quantify my preference with mere words. Many folks that are much smarter than I have tried to no avail. I guess explaining this would be a lot like explaining how good steak tastes to someone who has never eaten meat. The only way to understand is to get a hold of some and try it for yourself. I've used Osage that was six months old and quick dried up to hundred year old fenceposts and the older stuff has always made better bows. That's all I can tell you, really. Just experience. Josh
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I think I got my point across then....neither one of us can give enough "hard" proof evidence that one is "better" than the other enough to change either of our minds.....were all a bunch of opinionated worms squirming around in the same can. :) we both know what works best for our needs and wants,and neither one of us is wrong. As long as we understand that and respect each others choice we'll all get along like two peas in a pod. :)
If you made a bow that was only cut a month off the stump and you go out and harvest hundreds of pounds of meat with it..is it not doing what is asked of it? Compared to a bow that was made from 20 year old wood that hasn't harvested anything and shoots like crap from poor design n tiller? Is not the month off the stump bow "better". Debating seasoned versus dry is nothing but a trivial game played by us bowyers. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things when you think more in simple terms as to what a bow is asked to do?
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Yep Gun Doc it's one of those questions like why is osage denser than other wood?.....LOL.Heck I don't know God made it that way you know....LOL.
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Chris next time ya come over to work on bows, we can check out that Osage I have in the barn. I'm betting it's 3 or 4 years old. Might even let ya have a couple pieces too... ;)
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Chris next time ya come over to work on bows, we can check out that Osage I have in the barn. I'm betting it's 3 or 4 years old. Might even let ya have a couple pieces too... ;)
I don't know..that sounds pretty green and too fresh to me,and not "seasoned" enough....lol :laugh:
Seriously tho...were due for hanging out sometime soon ;)
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There have been 7 post since I started typing so I should just hit delete, but here we go anyway !
Jawge
I am not good with words ,and not the brightest crayon in the box ,but when a man ask ya a question ya need to try to answer !
Have you used Osage that had what we call not so good of a ratio between spring growth and late growth ? It takes a larger volume of wood to make a certain weight bow ,as the amount of spring growth increases . Should you let that wood set a few years and come back to it ,then you can get the weight bow at a closer volume of wood to what you are used to using . Thus we consider it to be denser now even if it is not the proper term ! we also get what seems to be more uniform and more stable .
Osage is the biggest culprit of these change that I know of !
with Hickory it becomes less likely to change in moisture and the internal stress' dies down !
I do not say that these same things could not be achieved other ways but time seems to be the way that works to my surest advantage !
Most likely none of this makes sense but then I am just an backwoods country boy that has grown into a worthless old nut !
Guy
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Dare I muddy the waters. Certainly
Lets consider that not all woods are the same. Some say wood is only better with age while others say dry is dry. So lets take an exaggerated view of these two mindsets.
If wood is truly better with age: then a bow that is made from a stave thousand years old will perform much better then one made from a stave less then a year.
I dare say, I think many bowyers would be nervous to work and push a thousand year old stave to it's max. bend.
Now on the thought that dry is dry: then a bow that is made from a thousand years old stave will perform no better then a bow made from wood less then a year old.
I have a hard time thinking this would hold up as a dogmatic belief as well.
Seems logical that with like most things in the world of bows, that there is even a balance in this rule as well, To old= To brittle. To green= lacking full potential
A method that seems to work well is drop the stave on end a few inches off the concrete. You will notice a definite tone when well seasoned or dried, chose your own word. Try your own stave pile and you will hear the differences in the staves. You will even see the difference in the bounce.
Now I need to go make some popcorn! ;D :o
Now really muddy the water with wood types like yew vs an oily wood like Osage and apply the same thoughts.
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I have a feeling people all across the world will be bouncing staves off the concrete today :o >:D
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I have a feeling people all acroos the world will be bouncing staves off the concrete today :o >:D
It's gonna throw the earth out of orbit and further exagerate climate change.
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I have a feeling people all acroos the world will be bouncing staves off the concrete today :o >:D
It's gonna throw the earth out of orbit and further exagerate climate change.
Maybe if we can all time it just at the same time the world harmonics will balance out and there will be perfect harmany
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What about seasoned wet wood?
I think my can of worms has some popcorn in it! ???
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My head hurts....I'm taking my popcorn and walking out on this flick :P :laugh: ...and I'm gonna take it down into the shop and just make a bow to unwind...With some 17 year old cut osage >:D
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went out and bounced some yew staves this morning, there is a SLIGHT difference in tone, between similar size staves (and i got good ears....musician)
the, 6 month staves did have a dull thud, while the staves that have set for a year are higher and almost have a ring to it. im digging this method. "singing yew"
i dont have any "Seasoned" staves to test, maybe you could send me one 8) >:D :laugh: and ill let you know what it sounds like ;D
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I wanna know where that trouble maker Sleek is, I hain't seen him post since the second page.. He must a run off and got skeered.. :)
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went out and bounced some yew staves this morning, there is a SLIGHT difference in tone, between similar size staves (and i got good ears....musician)
the, 6 month staves did have a dull thud, while the staves that have set for a year are higher and almost have a ring to it. im digging this method. "singing yew"
i dont have any "Seasoned" staves to test, maybe you could send me one 8) >:D :laugh: and ill let you know what it sounds like ;D
If you play guitar, try making a guitar saddle out of recently dried osage, and than one out of old brown osage. There is a big difference. The recently dried sounds horrible most of the time and really doesn't work in my experience, usually it almost mutes the guitar. Where sometimes the old brown harder osage can give a sweet ringing tone to it, and give the guitar a nice earthy vibe. (Although it is still wood, and neither usually sound any better than a cheapo plastic saddle you get off cheap guitars.)
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If you want to look at the structure of the wood think of it this way. when you dry the wood you are reducing the MC of the cells. but the cells can still have a rather soft structure. by aging(whatever it is about aging) the structure becomes rigid. Its like making mud bricks. fresh mud bricks are less likely to stand as well baked and aged bricks. but too old and you get brittle and crumbly bricks. as bryce was saying, the ring was higher pitched, less of the energy was used in cells that are weak making vibrations that are low. The high pitch is from the rigidity of the wood. the cells have become strong, they transfer energy more efficiently, less becomes lost to other things. and since what a bow is is just stored energy in each limb, it stands to reason that the wood that has better energy transfer will make a better bow given that all the dimensions are the same and that everything is perfect except the age of the wood.
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went out and bounced some yew staves this morning, there is a SLIGHT difference in tone, between similar size staves (and i got good ears....musician)
the, 6 month staves did have a dull thud, while the staves that have set for a year are higher and almost have a ring to it. im digging this method. "singing yew"
i dont have any "Seasoned" staves to test, maybe you could send me one 8) >:D :laugh: and ill let you know what it sounds like ;D
If you play guitar, try making a guitar saddle out of recently dried osage, and than one out of old brown osage. There is a big difference. The recently dried sounds horrible most of the time and really doesn't work in my experience, usually it almost mutes the guitar. Where sometimes the old brown harder osage can give a sweet ringing tone to it, and give the guitar a nice earthy vibe. (Although it is still wood, and neither usually sound any better than a cheapo plastic saddle you get off cheap guitars.)
i like my guitars made from sitka spruce :D.
and even with that wood i always pick a guitar (Taylor of course ;) )with a tighter/straighter grain and ring count. it sounds smoother and a sweeter, like a choir of baby angels :laugh: . but i think where getting a little off topic, unless you want to go into drum shells?! NOPE NVM IM DONE!
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Guitars suck.....but a necessary evil.....
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i hope that made sense, im a physics student, we learned that energy is transferred, so if the bows aren't as good from dried vs seasoned it stands to reason some kind of factor is using up the precious stored energy
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Dried wood (like any organic material) will change over long periods of time due to the effects of oxidation. But that process will degrade the wood rather than improve it. That’s why you wouldn’t want to draw a 500 year bow that has been exposed to air.
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i agree, there is a point at which seasoning doesn't help. there is a period of time in which the wood is usable, from the time of cutting to whatever date is its length of lifespan. Yes osage will last YEARS past most woods, its rot resistant, and also seems to be usable 50 or so years after its been cut. so basically seasoning is worth it, but only to a certain point, looking at the lifespan of the wood would give you an approximate for how much seasoning you should go for. I dont think a bow would become better over seasoning time because the cells have already been damaged and bent in a certain direction.
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One of the reasons I love working with wood is because it is so complex, dynamic, and extremely variable. The "wood" part of wood is comprised of Lignan. Lignan is a catch all term for some of the most complex, variable, and largest molecules known to man. We work with carbon-based skeletons from once living things, and no two examples of it are the same! I love it! I get all emotional cutting a yew tree that has been a living part of a forest for some 300 years.
Who knows what is going on at the cellular level of that living thing once it is cut? Any scientist out there understand what happens during the drying process? During the seasoning process? Anybody completely understand it? Anybody even vaguely grasp what is happening to wood on that level? Nope. It is too complex and variable. So the answer is not in the text book, on wikipedia, or in a lab. It is from our personal experience. I have some experience working well-seasoned wood and it is different from just dry wood. It looks different, feels different, sounds different, smells different, cuts different, sands different, glues different, bends different. Is it better? I don't know for sure, but it is most definitely different. And given the choice, I would take seasoned dry wood over just dry anyday.
For white woods, if you get whitewood dry initially, then decay is arrested and you are free to season it as long as you want, so long as it doesn't get too wet.
Wow, having a big cup o coffee after taking a week off has noticeable effects :o
Here is osage one year old (yeller), and 20 years old (amber)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1427_zpsc5ab3db8.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1430_zpsf1c5ac16.jpg)
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Guitars suck.....but a necessary evil.....
:o Blasphemy.
went out and bounced some yew staves this morning, there is a SLIGHT difference in tone, between similar size staves (and i got good ears....musician)
the, 6 month staves did have a dull thud, while the staves that have set for a year are higher and almost have a ring to it. im digging this method. "singing yew"
i dont have any "Seasoned" staves to test, maybe you could send me one 8) >:D :laugh: and ill let you know what it sounds like ;D
If you play guitar, try making a guitar saddle out of recently dried osage, and than one out of old brown osage. There is a big difference. The recently dried sounds horrible most of the time and really doesn't work in my experience, usually it almost mutes the guitar. Where sometimes the old brown harder osage can give a sweet ringing tone to it, and give the guitar a nice earthy vibe. (Although it is still wood, and neither usually sound any better than a cheapo plastic saddle you get off cheap guitars.)
i like my guitars made from sitka spruce :D.
I meant just the saddle, not the whole guitar! ;D I have heard though that osage sounds identical to rosewood as a back and sides wood. Someday when I get enough tools and wood I wanna try to build me one. Someday when I am like 70, ;). Ok, I'll stop going off topic now.
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Well, if anyone has some nicely seasoned yew or osage to spare, I would be happy to put this theory to the test >:D
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Dried wood (like any organic material) will change over long periods of time due to the effects of oxidation. But that process will degrade the wood rather than improve it. That’s why you wouldn’t want to draw a 500 year bow that has been exposed to air.
or a 60 yr./old bow :-\
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(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1430_zpsf1c5ac16.jpg)
Dried wood (like any organic material) will change over long periods of time due to the effects of oxidation. But that process will degrade the wood rather than improve it. That’s why you wouldn’t want to draw a 500 year bow that has been exposed to air.
or a 60 yr./old bow :-\
LMAO...sorry Bryce.
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Gordon, I'm working on it as we speak. A few that I have in the corner are getting older by the day! and I may not get to them this year as well :o
Carson and Iconicmuffin; Liked your input. Great way to look at it.
Additional proof is some wood that I got off a building dismantle. I had the salvage rights and made a barn out of some of the 50 year old timbers and 2x12s They were all old growth rough sawn Doug fir over fifty years old. The wood was in excellent shape because no excess moisture had got to the rafters for the whole time. We all know Doug fir is fairly soft and even if kiln dried it is easy to drive a nail through. This stuff was so hard when we built our barn that you would think you were driving the nail in concrete. It would even break screws occasionally. The wood after fifty years "seasoning" was not inferior, and did not want to split out when nailed,yet had become very hard.
Another line of thought: If it is real old wood, Can you rehydrate and regain the same elasticity as before? And if so what does it say on the molecular level
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Well, if anyone has some nicely seasoned yew or osage to spare, I would be happy to put this theory to the test >:D
I typed all that crazy stuff up before I saw your post Gordon. Hope it didn't come across as a directed response to your post. So about your inquiry....
I have some osage billets aged 20 years..they now have your name on them.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1431_zps4f5f5082.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1432_zps17e3f2f4.jpg)
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A method that seems to work well is drop the stave on end a few inches off the concrete. You will notice a definite tone when well seasoned or dried, chose your own word. Try your own stave pile and you will hear the differences in the staves. You will even see the difference in the bounce.
All my staves made more of a splat. :-\ It will be a long long time before I have any aged staves :(
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Hurry up Gordon. Inquiring minds want to know. Getting more popcorn :o >:D
A method that seems to work well is drop the stave on end a few inches off the concrete. You will notice a definite tone when well seasoned or dried, chose your own word. Try your own stave pile and you will hear the differences in the staves. You will even see the difference in the bounce.
All my staves made more of a splat. :-\ It will be a long long time before I have any aged staves :(
Now that was funny!
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I gotta quit making Osage Bows.
I'm going over to Home Depot for some pvc pipe, I hear ya can make a bow from that stuff.... >:D :)
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aye Roy, you can, its not hard. but its some iffy stuff if you aren't careful how you tiller it. it makes a good bow, but in comparison to wood there is none ;D nah but fishing and small game hunting is probably fine with them.
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Be sure its well seasoned Roybert, very important with plastic bows.
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Thanks, do they sell Osage grain stain that will stick to it?:) I want it looken like ah real wood bow ya know? LOL
Ok Pearly, I'll give the whole pile the Keenan drop on concrete test to listen for the higher ring. Ya think security will kick my ass out of the store? 8)
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Nah, just tell 'em what your doing!
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Well, if anyone has some nicely seasoned yew or osage to spare, I would be happy to put this theory to the test >:D
I typed all that crazy stuff up before I saw your post Gordon. Hope it didn't come across as a directed response to your post. So about your inquiry....
I have some osage billets aged 20 years..they now have your name on them.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1431_zps4f5f5082.jpg)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1432_zps17e3f2f4.jpg)
Hah, that is awesome.
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Gordon you lucky dog!
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Got anything with my name on it Carson ol' buddy? WOW your lucky Gordon, I know you will make a fantastic bow with those billets.
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Hey Carson thank you! I'm beginning to think that maybe long seasoned wood is really better ;D
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Pat B asked-
"What about seasoned wet wood? "
I seem to recall reading some instances where wood is stored or seasoned underwater, some times for hundred of years. Can the seasoning effect we are discussing here take place independently of drying?
1. As Gordon stated, even in dry conditions, wood deteriorates................. slowly with age.
2. Many agree that seasoning improves wood and that it happens...........slowly with age.
3. Is it a reasonable conclusion that it must be the age? Might be two different things happening here at cross purposes.
If scotch and water makes you drunk, and Bourbon and water makes you drunk, then
maybe a nice double of water .............
Many good observations and speculations on this thread. We don't have to "know" how seasoning works to make good use of it.
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Gun Doc, I made my first osage bow in 2000. I just made a bow a few years ago from well aged osage...around 10 years. I see no difference between that one and the other bows I've made from osage. It's ok; you are allowed to have a personal preference. I just don't have any for dried or seasoned.
Jawge
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The old time flight shooters that used to routinely shoot well over 400 yards and pushed the record out to 500 plus insisted that their wood be seasoned for years.
In these days of quick drying nobody has come close to those records despite all sorts of science helping them.
The funny thing is that people select wood based on perceived density and seasoned wood invariably has an edge in that department.
Jawge, that just proves that you peaked as a bowyer 13 years ago. >:D
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Gordon, I'm working on it as we speak. A few that I have in the corner are getting older by the day! and I may not get to them this year as well :o
Carson and Iconicmuffin; Liked your input. Great way to look at it.
Additional proof is some wood that I got off a building dismantle. I had the salvage rights and made a barn out of some of the 50 year old timbers and 2x12s They were all old growth rough sawn Doug fir over fifty years old. The wood was in excellent shape because no excess moisture had got to the rafters for the whole time. We all know Doug fir is fairly soft and even if kiln dried it is easy to drive a nail through. This stuff was so hard when we built our barn that you would think you were driving the nail in concrete. It would even break screws occasionally. The wood after fifty years "seasoning" was not inferior, and did not want to split out when nailed,yet had become very hard.
Another line of thought: If it is real old wood, Can you rehydrate and regain the same elasticity as before? And if so what does it say on the molecular level
I can tell you that I have worked with thousands upon thousands of board feet of D-Fir. Like I mentioned in the previous post when Evergreen's get old they get hard and brittle. Have a look at some old houses, they were built with real wood in those days, you cannot even remove nails the heads just break off same with screws.
As far as rehydrating and regain the same elasticity...............I would say No.!!
Why..? The molecular structure of the wood fiber has changed after 50 years.
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No matter how long you soak a raisin or a piece of beef jerky, you'll never turn them back into a grape or a steak.
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PatM, that's for sure. I think I peaked before I started. Jawge
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Hey Carson thank you! I'm beginning to think that maybe long seasoned wood is really better ;D
Gordon, I knew you would come around ;)
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Holy carp! I last checked this thread at around 9 am, went to bed ( I work nights ) woke up and now its on page 7! Do I get an award for fastest growing thread? Didnt realize I had a can of worms when I opened it.... there should be a sticky thread with a list of all the can of worms thread topics that should not be discussed and a link to each thread that did for an example as to why... LOL.
That being said, harmonics seems to be the best way to answer this question, as that is the usage of energy that can be measured precisely. So, either make a bow of year old wood, ( never shoot it ) string it, and listen to what key it rings in at what moisture content, then do it again every year, measuring the difference. You could also make a musical instrument ( maybe even a wind instrument ) and see how its tone changes over time. The key here is to make sure the MC doesnt change.
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Got anything with my name on it Carson ol' buddy? WOW your lucky Gordon, I know you will make a fantastic bow with those billets.
Funny you should ask that Pearl. This vine maple had your name on it since the day I cut it >:D I know how you can handle some reflex ;)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1441_zpsc79bb9ce.jpg)
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Carson I have the twin to that stave but it is on the line for a coat of finish now. You'll get to see it soon. Started with about 7 inches of reflex and kept most of it ::)LOL
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I'm sure most have heard of (The field of cryogenics) and any good engine builder would much prefer a well seasoned engine block to use in the rebuild. Same principle I think applies to wood at the molecular level. I'll paste this bit of info from a article i read.
(They originally experimented with the possibility of increasing the life of metal tools to anywhere between 200%-400% of the original life expectancy using cryogenic tempering instead of heat treating. This evolved in the late 1990s into the treatment of other parts (that did more than just increase the life of a product) such as amplifier valves (improved sound quality), baseball bats (greater sweet spot), golf clubs (greater sweet spot), racing engines (greater performance under stress), firearms (less warping after continuous shooting), knives, razor blades, brake rotors and even pantyhose)
I'm sure with a little research we could find plenty to back up a well seasoned stave is better. As the molecule's have aligned and balanced.
Keenan I've also experienced the properties of well seasoned old (over 100 year) timber and have some from and old house. I know its some form of pine and the new wood from later additions was total destroyed by termites but not the old wood, they didn't touch it. Maybe I should try a bow from it. :)
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Wow this thread exploded. If there is a reason why well seasoned staves are better then it needs to be defined. Is it workability or in the finished product as a bow? Do bows from well seasoned staves shoot faster? If so then that means they store more energy per mass than less seasoned wood. At what point would seasoning no longer give an advantage and at what point do we start to see an advantage? There are so many factors that it would almost be impossible to test. Great bows have been made from both quick dried and seasoned staves and any difference is trivial and left to the opinion of the bowyer. Would be cool to know what happens to wood while being seasoned though.
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I think I get it now.
Ah crap now I forgot what we was talken about. >:D
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Everything you ever wanted to know about the science of seasoning wood and then some:
http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-155.pdf (http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-155.pdf)
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I gotta wonder how the Indians kilt all them Buffalos and white men with stick bows when they had no college eduamacation:)
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Everything you ever wanted to know about the science of seasoning wood and then some:
http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-155.pdf (http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-155.pdf)
Well.....in that paper "seasoning = drying", so I didn't find any answers in there (maybe I should read it in deepth, and not just skim it;-) . Awsome work none the less.
As to the subject I still hold the opinion that dry is dry, is dry. I haven't noticed any difference in dry wood and seasoned wood (2-4 yrs) (speaking exclusively wych elm here). I like many others in this thread, need confirmation (either my "science", testing or experience).
The only thing that rocks my confidence is heat treating....I cant explain that either, but it works. I cant exclude that seasoning works, so ill try and stay open minded.
Cheers
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Makes me wonder if heat treating is like a rapid seasoning? Have any of you " I want seasoned wood over dry "guys noticed a similarity between heat treaded younger wood and non heat treated seasoned wood? And to look at it from another angle, does heat treating already well seasoned wood make a difference on the properties of the wood?
Seasoned wood turnes darker, heat treated wood turnes darker. Both seem to have the same properties all the pro seasoning folks mention. Wood oxadizes when its burnt, and I assume bassed on the color change of osage, that it oxadizes as it sits and ages. so, whats the difference?
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Told yall where this was going. ;) :) :) The best answer is if you think their is no difference in dry and seasoned then don't worry about it. :) That will solve the debate. :)
Pappy
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HAHA, Pappy, looks like you are trying to put a lid on my can.... I get this image of you sitting on top an over boiling lid on a pressure cooker.....
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Told yall where this was going. ;) :) :) The best answer is if you think their is no difference in dry and seasoned then don't worry about it. :) That will solve the debate. :)
Pappy
With so little empiric evidence, dogma is bound to surface....and dogma always polarize debates;-).
Cheers
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Yep it's all an opinion Holten 101 and you know how opinions are. ;) Sleek it has went good,I have said it before,this is a great bunch and most of the debates stay
civil. :) Their are just some things that will never really be solved, they come up from time to time but usually no ones minds are changed. :)
Pappy
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Got anything with my name on it Carson ol' buddy? WOW your lucky Gordon, I know you will make a fantastic bow with those billets.
Funny you should ask that Pearl. This vine maple had your name on it since the day I cut it >:D I know how you can handle some reflex ;)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/Acer_circinatum/IMG_1441_zpsc79bb9ce.jpg)
Let me at it buddy! No such thing as too much reflex in my thin, little book. Vine Maple has always intrigued me. The 8-9 types of Maples we have growing around here wont ever be harmed by my tools. It doesnt hold a candle to what I know about Vine Maple.
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Yep it's all an opinion Holten 101 and you know how opinions are. ;) Sleek it has went good,I have said it before,this is a great bunch and most of the debates stay
civil. :) Their are just some things that will never really be solved, they come up from time to time but usually no ones minds are changed. :)
Pappy
I agree....Im amazed (again) of how little drama even "hot topics" (good luck explaining your wife how seasoning wood is a hot topic;-) create in here....indeed a great bunch of people.
PA and PP are, by a margin the most pleasant, thought provoking, inspiring and educational sites on this internet thingy;-)
Cheers
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Gordon, Good link and read, to bad it didn't give more data on "Bow wood" like Osage or Yew. With moisture being removed when dried, it would be interesting to see the effects of resin leached out of the wood cells when kiln dried as apposed to what happens if slow dried.
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About a year ago we had the same debate !
Still fun !!!
Back then I said that Gary Davis went from tree to bow in like 14 days or something !
That bow was as good as or better than any other bow any of us do ,but I still think with some seasoning it could have been better !
A hard headed worthless old nut !
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I have yet to find any reference that suggests that "cured" natural occuring resins impart strength to dried wood cells. Maybe there is some supporting research out there somewhere, but until I find it I remain skeptical.
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It's out there Gordon, keep looking. ;D
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"I think I get it now." Roy
I think that post may have made my morning! :) Jawge
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Ok so I haven't read the whole thread but here's my take on it: during aging (prolonged state of rest of a dry piece of wood) wood's chemical composition slowly alters and it's physical properties can be altered too.
here's an article (I can only post the abstract because of copyright laws):
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1296207412000404
Effects of aging on the vibrational properties of wood. Noguchi, Takunori ; Obataya, Eiichi ; Ando, Kosei Journal of Cultural Heritage , 2012 , Vol. 13 (3) , S21 -S25
Vibrational properties of aged wood (121∼296 years old) were compared with those of recently cut “new” wood (8 years old). The aged wood showed higher sound velocity (VL) and lower mechanical loss tangent (tanδL) than the new wood. The ratio of Young's modulus and shear modulus (EL/GL) remained unchanged or increased slightly during the aging period. These results coincide with musicians’ empirical observations that the acoustic quality of wooden soundboards is improved by aging. In addition, the reduced tanδL of the aged wood indicates the qualitative difference between the naturally aged and heat-treated wood. The experimental results were explained by using a cell wall model when we assumed the following: increase in the volume fraction of cellulosic microfibrils; reduction in the shear modulus of amorphous matrix substances, and; reduction in the loss tangent of the matrix. These assumptions appear reasonable when we consider the crystallization of cellulose, depolymerization of hemicelluloses, and cross-linking in the lignin complex during aging.
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Here's another one that found that after one year of seasoning there is a chemical alteration of wood. Wood physical properties have not been examnied though.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10564039
Evolution of phenolic compounds of spanish oak wood during natural seasoning. First results. Brıgida Fernandez de Simon, Estrella Cadahıa, Elvira Conde, and Marıa Concepcion Garcıa-Vallejo
Low molecular weight polyphenols and ellagitannins were analyzed by HPLC, and the molecular weight distribution of ellagitannins was calculated by GPC, in oak heartwood of Quercus robur L., Quercus petraea Liebl., Quercus pyrenaica Wild., and Quercus faginea Lam., grown in Spain, before and after 1 year of seasoning, in Bordeaux, France. During this process, the concentrations of low molecular weight polyphenols (acids and aldehydes, benzoic and cinnamic, and coumarins) increased, and those of ellagitannins (castalagin, vescalagin, and roburins A-E) decreased. A similar behavior for the A and B compounds in all species was not found. This modification in the chemical composition was similar in the four Spanish species of Quercus studied and allowed the differentiation between the unseasoned wood and the wood after the first year of seasoning.
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So it seems something is happening over time. The question we have to ask is: how can we work it to our advantage? is it significant? Still lots to discover.
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WOW,That's like reading the Saint James version of the old Testament. ??? Tough reading for a red neck like me much less understanding. :) OK I give,dry wood is no different than seasoned. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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I'm coming around to the seasoned wood side of this fence.
Went flipping through most of my archery books. Written by some great archers, Saxon pope, art young, Fred bear, Chester Stevenson, ect.
One archer talked about a stave not being dry, but instead "ripe".
They all preferred 'seasoned' staves. Now if there's anything I've learned from this short time on this planet it's to listen and soak up the knowledge the elders have to offer.because they know things that I don't. And even though I don't know the reason why they prefer them I may never know but i sure do want to find out.
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In online searches, I also found that luthiers have investigated the causes and effects of aging or seasoning on sound quality. Toomanyknots brought this up too, but I did not see a connection to sound quality and bow strength until I realized that with sound resonance, the qualities of brilliance desired over flatness may be an example of lessening the hysteresis or dampening effect in the sound board. Could this reduction be the same as we are looking for in a bow to impart more energy to the arrow?
Ryoons desire to quantify what makes seasoned staves better could be realized by performing hysteresis tests on similar seasoned and unseasoned samples at comparable moisture contents. Tim Baker asserts in T.B.B.4. p. 142 "it seems likely that hysteresis is lower in very dry wood", "toasting belly wood might lower hysteresis" and " if we can conjure up some way to keep very dry wood from breaking, or of keeping just the belly very dry, bow performance could be enhanced." Most bowyers accept these reductions of hystereses to be effective. What if proper seasoning is the way that wood could "act" drier without breaking? If so, perhaps the methods lutheriers have developed to cure sounding boards is worth looking at.
Maybe we could get Keenan to visit a luthier, and bounce his sound board stock off the concrete :)
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Well....I'm not nearly as smart as some of you guys and just as much of a smart alec as most but after reading this thread all the way through I have to say that I absolutley love these sticky threads, It stimulate thought and gets us all to thinking. I also love the way we can share our opinions and not lose our gentlemanly attitudes.
I think I understand that all woods do not have the same amount or even the same chemical make ups as one another. I also tend to think there is gonna be a difference that curing over a long period of time is going to have on the various swoods. The woods that have the resins obviuosly have something in them that the ones that don't have resins have...resins. The effect of the resins changing over time has to have some kind of effect in how the wood will perform. Now what kind of effect is still whats up in the air. It doesn't seem that it has been quantified.
I know for me I prefer to let my stuff sit for at least three years before I try and build a bow with. I figure it certainly does'nt hurt it that for sure. I figured out early that if I don't want to run of materials to use I better make sure I have plenty harvested. Thats one of the reasons I try and harvest a good batch every year so that 10yr from now I can be working with older wood and give the others a chance to cure longer. Push come to shove I will work with any piece that has at least been dried properly but I just got a gut feeling that older is better.
I am sure that there is most likely a tipping point per species where that no longer holds true and it begins to diminsh for the uses we bowyers have. Danny
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;D ;D ;D Now we can all meditate deeply on the knowledge and intrigue into the dark depths of Seasoned wood vs. dried wood. I'm out of popcorn >:D
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There's an inherent problem with testing woods in that it varies so much as a material between and within species. There are also soapy variables that can be applied to the drying/atmospheric onditions that it would almost be impossible to determine what is going on by testing. What I think would be more reasonable is an understanding of what is happening chemically to the structure of the wood over time. Of course I personally don't have the knowledge or understanding to make any guesses or even know where to start examining but it's fun to think about. Perhaps certain molecules, if they exist, in the wood crystallize over long periods of time and the increased stiffness, although not storing energy, exerts a kinetic force on the long energy storing molecules causing them to want to contract more so than in less seasoned wood. :P
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If you ain't shooting crystal powered bows, you aint living :laugh:
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I will fall on the side of the fence of those that put their faith in seasoning. I've worked some osage that was over 125 years cut, spent most of that time in a milk barn as a ceiling beam. It worked in a quantitatively different manner than 2-3 yr cut osage. The ring chasing was brilliantly easy. Early wood was crisp and flew off the drawknife, late wood was like ceramic. Ultimately, I put the stave aside because I have feared heat treating the stave to get the string to line up thru the handle. Maybe some day I will finish the project. Who knows, maybe it is past it's prime and will be insanely brittle.
Toomanyknots mentioned a few pages back about making a guitar body partially from osage. That leads my mind down dark alleys towards God-knows-what! Ultimately, as the wood aged and took on that lovely color that only osage acheives, it would make a beautifuyl instrument. But it begs the question, would he string the guitar with Dacron B-50 or FastFlite?
Oh lord, another can of worms...B50 vs FF! DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!
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So, here is a question. Has anybody tillered a bow out to a weight and draw length, then set the bow aside for a year or ttwo, then notice its of a higher weight? I ask because my wife made an osage bow that was 40 at 24. Two years later, it thinks its a war bow, and I can barely string it! Now I am sure some moisture loss can be blamed, but not to this degree.
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Hey folks the guitar builders are heat treating there wood these days to gain the better quality ,and we now carbonize wood for out door use instead of the chemical treatment !
More fuel for the fire ?
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Wow this thread exploded. If there is a reason why well seasoned staves are better then it needs to be defined. Is it workability or in the finished product as a bow? Do bows from well seasoned staves shoot faster? If so then that means they store more energy per mass than less seasoned wood. At what point would seasoning no longer give an advantage and at what point do we start to see an advantage? There are so many factors that it would almost be impossible to test. Great bows have been made from both quick dried and seasoned staves and any difference is trivial and left to the opinion of the bowyer. Would be cool to know what happens to wood while being seasoned though.
Well said Ryoon.!! As far as bows breaking Grain issues, bad tillering and other variables come into play where as "drying wood and seasoning it" could really be trivial in the Big Scheme of things... I think this post raps it up for me..... ;)
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Y' all use your staves to play music or do you make bows from them? :) Jawge
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We could start a band. You get thrown out if you try to use an unseasoned stave. :) Jawge
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Well George, hopefully we can use the staves to make better bows :laugh:
A little more info on how luthiers artificially season their wood can be found here:
http://www.luthierforum.com/index.php?/topic/1343-kermodie-testing-by-brian-burns/
Burns has done some testing and quantifies certain strength increases. An interesting aspect of their work is that it looks remarkably similar to heat tempering the belly. One poster on this thread maintains that
"These effects are pronouncedly less intense the older and more well-seasoned the wood is already. If I think the wood feels and sounds right, I don't cook it. If not, cooking usually speeds up the "ageing" process. "
Has anyone here made the same observation about toasting the belly of bows made from well seasoned staves?
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We could start a band. You get thrown out if you try to use an unseasoned stave. :) Jawge
We'll call ourselves "Staves on the Ground!"
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Well George, hopefully we can use the staves to make better bows :laugh:
A little more info on how luthiers artificially season their wood can be found here:
http://www.luthierforum.com/index.php?/topic/1343-kermodie-testing-by-brian-burns/
Burns has done some testing and quantifies certain strength increases. An interesting aspect of their work is that it looks remarkably similar to heat tempering the belly. One poster on this thread maintains that
"These effects are pronouncedly less intense the older and more well-seasoned the wood is already. If I think the wood feels and sounds right, I don't cook it. If not, cooking usually speeds up the "ageing" process. "
Has anyone here made the same observation about toasting the belly of bows made from well seasoned staves?
That is very intriguing, thank you!
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AHH HA! So, there is merit to the thought process that heat treating is just an accelerated aging... Argument over for me! Yes, aged is better than fresh, and heat treat artifically ages wood :)
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AHH HA! So, there is merit to the thought process that heat treating is just an accelerated aging... Argument over for me! Yes, aged is better than fresh, and heat treat artifically ages wood :)
It certainly would be beneficial if we could learn how to treat staves to make better performing bows, but discoveries that apply to improved sound resonance in unstrained spruce might not transfer very directly to highly stressed hardwoods. and if we develop better methods to accelerate aging that improve initial performance, could we also be accelerating some of the detrimental aging affects also?
Would anyone care to comment on the longevity of the gains that come from toasting bellies or any preference for bending wood green prior to drying naturally vs. heat bending after drying?