Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dane on October 20, 2007, 05:41:47 pm
-
Hi everyone. I should have gotten this more along before posting, but I'm excited about it, and wanted you to see it, even though it has a long ways to go.
This is the spring frame and the stock for a small torsion spring arrow firing machine. What you are seeing is the spring frame, made of ash, and the stock. A slider will fit into the dovetail groove in the stock, and the four holes in the spring frame are going to have rope (I hope to make them sinew) springs. Two bow arms will be fitted into the springs, and the machine is spanned (drawn) back by leaning on a stomach rest that will be at the end of the stock, thereby pulling the slider back until I lock it with a bronze and iron trigger.
Part of this project is making bronze components. I have a bronze melting oven in progress, propane fired and capable of melting bronze at 2400 degrees (more or less, depending on the exact alloy used). The oven is small, and will weigh about 90 lbs. This manuballista will need a number of bronze plates for the top, sides, and front of the frame, and a few components of iron as welll.
You have to use a bit of imagination here. The stock will be much lower, but I just fitted it in the frame to give an idea of what it will look like what it is done. Also, the frame is only rough sanded, and the stock is only very rough planed so far.
As for how powerful this machine is going to be, I have no idea. We do know that one charactaristic of arrow firing machines is the very flat, fast trajectory, so it should make a bolt move very fast. And many factors go into these machines, such as moisture in the air, how much you crank torsion into the springs, etc. I can't recall anyone today making reconstructed seige engines using sinew or hair ropes. I want to make the rope springs from this from sinew, probably more expensive than I want, and difficult, but after this much work (I can't tell you how much time I put into it. Lots! Just learning to make mortise and tenion joints has been a journey). I also have to find a blacksmith to make hand forged iron nails for fitting the plates to the frame. The diameter of the springs will be 1 3/8", or possible a bit more, depending on how the spring washers come out. The bolts for this will be about 12.5" (my notes and drawings are in the shop in my now pretty worn "Boys Big Book of Machines of Death"). I will put this machine through all kinds of tests, chronograph, armor piercing, flight shooting, etc. and under field conditions (well, as close as I can come up with, in kit, with armor, after road marches, different weather conditions, etc).
I think it will be many months before I can actually show the finished weapon here, and will when I can. I probably should have waited, but hey, this place is about sharing.
Dane
PS Here is a link to an article with a photo of a reconstructed manuballista. Mine will be similar to this, but not exact for various reasons.
http://www.romanhideout.com/news/2005/20050224.asp
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Thats great Dane,cant wait to see the finished product! it will be the first engine i've seen with a sinew rope,i'm looking forward to the results.
Andy
-
Cool project! Good luck, and keep us posted. Ron
-
Good luck with the project! I know from watching some of that history channel stuff that attempts to build full-sized ballistae have been full of problems. Trying to find suitable cordage for the skeins, and trying to keep the whole thing together!
Should work better on the small scale. One of my crossbow pages has a link to some Roman-era devices...I seem to have lost it....
-
Wow, I'm looking forward to seeing this project unfold!
-
cool looking machine dane. must of been slow going routing out that dovetail in the ash. what happened with that other machine you were working on? peace
-
Im excited too! But dont wait until it is done to post more, show the build along the way. :)
-
Thanks, everyone. Wolfsire, I will post pictures and comments as I continue toward completion, though it will be some time. Thanks for the kind words.
Jamie, the routing didn't take that long, especially considering I had never routed a dovetail groove before, :) I didn't get it dead on center, so I will plane down on side of the stock a bit to compensate. The larger machine is moving along nicely - frame nearly done, slider and stock done, and I am making the stand now. After all the work learning traditional jointry on this small machine, it is less daunting an task now. That one will have 4" springs, so more caution is needed. Once I do get it to trail stage, I will wear armor and face shield and hard hat. Just to be careful :)
Gordon, thanks.
Bikewer, that is true. The gigantic machine they tried to build a few years ago didn't work out so well. For everything we think we know, there is much that is educated guesswork and trial and error. I am guessing if they found a large machine as prefectly preserved as the little Xanian machine I am basing this manuballista on, things would go smoother for builders.
Loki, I knew you'd appreciate this project. Yeah, sinew ropes will be cool to make and use. Another ancient recommended rope is women's hair, but I doubt I could find that many women who would give up their locks for my toy, lol.
-
Here are some shots of the frame taken the other day, before glueup but fitted together.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Your a strange individual Dane ;), of course I mean that in a nice way ;D
-
Who wants to be normal, Dana? :) Meaning understoood.
Dane
-
if you finish them up before the next event definetly bring them down. also if you need anything for the project let me know. i had some hand forged nails , i'll have to find them. peace
-
Jamie, thanks much! Some hand forged nails would be awesome.
They will both be ready and tested before May. I will bring them down for certain.
Dane
BTW, got that photo disk, thanks! I just have to finish that article now, when I get a few hours time. And, the jacket with neolithic designs is fantastic. Your work is always great.
-
This looks like a cool project, Dane. Looking forward to seeing your progress. Pat
-
Pat, thanks. By the way, I read your latest article in PA - you looked great on horseback, and that bow was just beautiful.
Here is a little work I did just earlier today. I routed out the dovetail slot out of the same sized ash timber as the stock. It is far to massive as it stands. Now, I have to plane down both sides, rip the board in half a bit above the height I want the slider, and chisel in or route in the bolt groove once I establish final slider height.
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Looks like some really straight grained ash Dane, could've been a nice bow ::)
-
Crossed my mind more than once, too. What can I say? All wood is not destined for bow making. All wooden bows, though, are made of wood. :) That is the best I can do philisophically at O-dark-30.
Dane
-
Dane, I just joined the group. There are a fair number of blacksmiths in your state, but if you need any advice in making points for your projectiles I have a lot of experience forging nearly anything; unfortunately I live in the Ozark mountains a long way away. I made some small catapults as a kid and I used nylon for the skeins. You might try that while making up you sinew skeins so you can fine tune your machine. I would imagine the characteristics of both materials are pretty similar in torsion. I would start with lighter skeins and work my way up. My catapults were small, threw a lead ball. I made them in the early 1960's.
-
Cllinker2, thanks for the post, and welcome to this community.
Most modern catapult makers use nylon rope, so that is great advice. As for forging, I appreciate the comments, and will consider that. I don't want to pester you, though.
I just finished rough cutting the slider, and once that is done and I have the stock closer to being done, I'll post more pics, Maybe by the end of the weekend.
Dane
-
WOW !!!.... Dane...can't wait to see your progress on this baby.... They had one of these handd held in one of those Ancient Tech shows on the Hist channel....looked awesome....Good Luck on it.
-
Jim, thanks. This definetely is a much longer term project than a self or board bow. I'm hoping I can be shooting it by early next year.
In fact, I have to think along totally different lines as I build this little toy. I would like to say engineering, but I am no engineer :) There are formulas the Romans and Greeks developed for these machines, with the spring diameter being the central point of departure for all the other dimensions.
I should watch History Channel. I have it, but haven't watched TV in years, aside from movies.
-
Dane, I routinely teach blacksmithing and do a lot of drawings on how to make things, so it is not a bother, I am glad to help.
-
Well, I do appreciate this offer very much. And I am guessing you live in a beautiful part of the country, must be nice. Wish I could drive out and see your forge, but New England is a bit far from the Ozarks.
I will post some shots soon of the original Xanian artifact, so you can see what the nails look like that held on the bronze and iron plating. Those are the single most important forged items I need for this project for now. Projectile heads, as well, for both this little machine and the bigger one.
Dane
-
Hi Dane. I have made literally tens of thousands of handmade nails of all sorts. I wrote an article on making them for Early American Life in July, 1976 (Yeah, I'm that old!!) so if you give me the specs on the nails you need I can make them either of steel or manganese bronze. I don't have tin bronze and it is brittle in forging hot anyhow. I went to the page you mentioned and saw the reconstruction they had there. I was not aware of torsion ballistas that were hand held. The only illustrations I had looked at were in A History of Technology and they showed a rather peculiar crossbow with a slack string, It was not the slack string that was unusual as that the stock terminated in a round handle instead of a tiller typical to Medieval and Renaissance crossbows. Specs for nails would be square or hand hammered round shank, type of head you prefer. If you pay the postage there will be no cost for this project, as I assume there will only be a reasonable number of nails. I do not currently have wrought iron, but if necessary I can probably scrounge some from some friends. the appearance is identical, the wrought iron is softer, not as strong. I do have some exceptionally soft steel that would be suitable. Of course, there is a price: I want to see the pictures!
-
I am blown away by your offer. Tell you what, I will provide complete pictures, and I'm a pretty good hand weaver. Could I weave you a bow sock, or maybe a wool or linen table runner? Or something else, perhaps?
Here is a liink to a database of images of the original machine. This is a remarkable find, proving they had 1st century hand-held arrow firing ballistas, and the find was so complete, it even had traces of rope on it. Until 2000, no one had any idea such as small wooden Vertruvian machine existed at all.
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_easygallery/act,categories/cid,74/Itemid,135/
Oh, age is relative! :)
From studying the photos, it looks like there are 14 nails on the front of the machine, 4 in the back, and 24 total from both sides. There are 8 total for the top and bottom. All look to be square heads, and I leave it to you about square or round shanks. Bronze would be perfect, as I am sheating the frame primarily in bronze. 1/2" or shade longer would be more than enough. If you think another type of metal would be better, you are the expert.
I hope that is not too many for you to make, and I am deeply grateful.
If this sounds good to you, I will private message my address to you. Whatever postage is, no problem, just let me know.
Dane
-
Well, Dane, It's the kind of thing I would make if I could. My wife is a weaver , and I learned to weave and spin proably 50 or more years ago. The nails will be no problem. My Email is on my profile, and you canjust send me your address there. I have made perhaps 500 nails in a day when I was young. Of course, thosue were all simple nails for a restoration, but the nails ae not an imposisiton, but arre a pleasure for me to particiape in your project. I have seen ballista projectile points, and I sort of remember them to be like a bodkin point for a longbow or crossbow bolt. I think the one I saw was quite corroded and impbeded in a human vertabrae!
As I asaid, I am recperating from surgery, and I have some time important work I need to do when I get back to work, hopefully next week, but I can get them made in the next several weeks I am sure. The only drawings I currently have of ballistas are in a reprint of a 1900 book, and Payne-Gallwey often mae things look as he thought they should. I see in a different thread that some arre worried about bodkin sockets opening up if the shaft does not fit perfectly. I assume the traditional method, and one that has worked for me, is simply to shape the wood as close as possible, then heat the shocket ehough to burn it to a close fit and mount with whatever adhesive was common at the time, probably either a pitch, gum, or asphaltum base adhesive.
-
Well, Dane, It's the kind of thing I would make if I could. My wife is a weaver , and I learned to weave and spin proably 50 or more years ago. The nails will be no problem. My Email is on my profile, and you canjust send me your address there. I have made perhaps 500 nails in a day when I was young. Of course, thosue were all simple nails for a restoration, but the nails are not an imposition, but are a pleasure for me to participate in your project. I have seen ballista projectile points, and I sort of remember them to be like a bodkin point for a longbow or crossbow bolt. I think the one I saw was quite corroded and embedded in a human vertebrae!
As I said, I am recuperating from surgery, and I have some time important work I need to do when I get back to work, hopefully next week, but I can get them made in the next several weeks I am sure. The only drawings I currently have of ballistas are in a reprint of a 1900 book, and Payne-Gallwey often made things look as he thought they should. I see in a different thread that some are worried about bodkin sockets opening up if the shaft does not fit perfectly. I assume the traditional method, and one that has worked for me, is simply to shape the wood as close as possible, then heat the socket enough to burn it to a close fit and mount with whatever adhesive was common at the time, probably either a pitch, gum, or asphaltum base adhesive.
I see I was clever enough to post this before spell checking it the first time!
-
Dane ,can't wait to see the finished project.Never seen anything like this before.
-
I've seen a few Roman torsion machines but not one of them had a sinew rope! all were using modern ropes/string's.I'm eagerly awaiing the result's of this project Dane,it's gonna be greattt!!!! ;D
As for arrowheads,Trilobate,Bilobate or the armour piercers found at Vindolanda (similar to type 9) will do for this baby!
Bilobate heads are similar to Saxon type 1's but a little larger.Trilobate are the three bladed brute's but they look chewy to make,Hector cole in England makes them but he's pricey (bloody good though!).
If you make a shoulder on the shaft for the socket to sit on you shouldnt have any problems with the socket opening,if the head doesnt fit the shaft correct the shaft will push into the head on impact,splitting the socket,or just make them Tanged.
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8136/t18romansocketie3.th.gif) (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t18romansocketie3.gif)
-
Dane, I was wondering if there is enough room for the skiens too fit in there? Trapper
-
Well, Dane, It's the kind of thing I would make if I could. My wife is a weaver , and I learned to weave and spin proably 50 or more years ago. The nails will be no problem. My Email is on my profile, and you canjust send me your address there. I have made perhaps 500 nails in a day when I was young. Of course, thosue were all simple nails for a restoration, but the nails are not an imposition, but are a pleasure for me to participate in your project. I have seen ballista projectile points, and I sort of remember them to be like a bodkin point for a longbow or crossbow bolt. I think the one I saw was quite corroded and embedded in a human vertebrae!
As I said, I am recuperating from surgery, and I have some time important work I need to do when I get back to work, hopefully next week, but I can get them made in the next several weeks I am sure. The only drawings I currently have of ballistas are in a reprint of a 1900 book, and Payne-Gallwey often made things look as he thought they should. I see in a different thread that some are worried about bodkin sockets opening up if the shaft does not fit perfectly. I assume the traditional method, and one that has worked for me, is simply to shape the wood as close as possible, then heat the socket enough to burn it to a close fit and mount with whatever adhesive was common at the time, probably either a pitch, gum, or asphaltum base adhesive.
I see I was clever enough to post this before spell checking it the first time!
Hi. I am so sorry for not getting to this post earlier – life is crazy, and tonight is my 9th wedding anniversary, but I found a few minutes to write.
Take good care of yourself, and I hope you recover and feel good soon.
Thanks so much about the nails, I am so grateful. They will have small heads, keeping in mind the spring frame is 8.25” by 8.25” – not large.
You are right about the kind of points used for ballistas and catapults – like bodkin points. I am guessing that small machines like this would use bodkins or even the tribolate or bibolate kind of heads that Loki has shown – I do know for sure Romans used those kinds of heads, in both bronze and iron, for arrows.
I believe that one you mentioned is the guy who had been pinned to a tree from a captapulta bolt, instantly killing him and temporarily routing the attacking force. Those bolts easily went right though any shield in existence and deep into a target, whoever that was. I may be wrong, but one of the root words from Greek for siege machines means shield breaker.
I'll PM you my address and such soon.
Dane
-
Mamba, me too until not that long ago.
Loki, salve. Man, Hector Cole's work is just amazing, and yeah, the price is what you get! Very dear for me though. And good thoughts on the heads. And making sinew rope will be one of the highlights of this project, though not so easy or cheap eh? :)
Trapper, should be plenty of room for the rope in the holes. You feed the rope slowly with tension, over and over and over. The ancient engineers would pluck the rope like a harp string to ensure even tension, and that is what modern folks do too. The entire hole will be filled, to maximize power.
Dane
-
I'll get you a Type 18 when i place my next order Dane (next few weeks),what would you prefer tanged or Socketed?
Andy
-
Andy, he does such amazing work, but his prices are a bit too much for me for now, but thanks very much for the offer - I don't want you paying for it.
Dane
-
Hi Dane,
-
Hi Dane, I got the Email with your address. I can certainly make anything anyone needs when I can fully smith. I just saw my surgeon today, and I am limited to very light work (like making nails and points, etc. ) for 3 months. I have made gates that weighed 3000 lbs and that were for estates. But I can't work on anything that heavy for some time. Quite depressing for me. I am a good smith, have made arrowheads for 50 years, the first points were what got me into blacksmithing and crude. My advice if you do videos is to realize just how bad the videos on the manuballista on the internet are. I sold over $10,000 of one instructional video over a 14 year time. You should make sure you write a script or story board. Wind noises are distracting. Seeing just the thing go clack is not too exciting. show the projectile hitting, show it penetrating someting dramatic, like a pumpkin. Film much more than you plan showing and edit. Try and show some assembly of the weapon. A good voice over can help. I did my video before I knew anything about digital editing, made many mistakes, but it was well received. We plan to make some more, but I don't know how soon. I can fix you up with several point as well. I am not up on what is historically accurate for ballista points. But I am skilled enough I can forge weld Damascus gun barrels, so ballista parts don't sound overly challenging! I plan eventually getting some information on my website when I get it done that shows how to build simple forges. Instructibles has TERRIBLE attempts at making forges. I made forges as good as any they are showing when I was 9 years old. Don't follow them. I don't know what type of metal melting furnace you are building. If gas, charcoal or coke burning it can also be used to heat metal bars for forging. I am doing this gratis due to my personal interest, but I normally make my living selling ironwork and teaching how to do it. I am sure I can answer any questions you might have. I also have done quite a bit of casting, but more in aluminum than anything else. i did cast bronze parts for horse drawn sleighs, so if you don't have local help perhaps I can give advice. Realize the local high school shop instructor or technical school instructor may know quite a bit about casting and may be good help.
-
Andy, he does such amazing work, but his prices are a bit too much for me for now, but thanks very much for the offer - I don't want you paying for it.
Dane
Salve Dane!
hey i dont mind getting a point for you,i really want to see what this baby can do and we know the heads important to the destruction >:D,it deserves a good accurate one.
But if Clinker can make you them then all the better,i sent a Hector cole head to Lloyd (LA) and it took over two weeks to arrive! i thought someone had pinched it,lol.
Clinker2,this is Hector Cole's version of the Type 18,would go lovely out of a manubalista ;D.
(http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/images/T18romansocket.gif)
-
Hi Dane, I got the Email with your address. I can certainly make anything anyone needs when I can fully smith. I just saw my surgeon today, and I am limited to very light work (like making nails and points, etc. ) for 3 months. I have made gates that weighed 3000 lbs and that were for estates. But I can't work on anything that heavy for some time. Quite depressing for me. I am a good smith, have made arrowheads for 50 years, the first points were what got me into blacksmithing and crude. My advice if you do videos is to realize just how bad the videos on the manuballista on the internet are. I sold over $10,000 of one instructional video over a 14 year time. You should make sure you write a script or story board. Wind noises are distracting. Seeing just the thing go clack is not too exciting. show the projectile hitting, show it penetrating someting dramatic, like a pumpkin. Film much more than you plan showing and edit. Try and show some assembly of the weapon. A good voice over can help. I did my video before I knew anything about digital editing, made many mistakes, but it was well received. We plan to make some more, but I don't know how soon. I can fix you up with several point as well. I am not up on what is historically accurate for ballista points. But I am skilled enough I can forge weld Damascus gun barrels, so ballista parts don't sound overly challenging! I plan eventually getting some information on my website when I get it done that shows how to build simple forges. Instructibles has TERRIBLE attempts at making forges. I made forges as good as any they are showing when I was 9 years old. Don't follow them. I don't know what type of metal melting furnace you are building. If gas, charcoal or coke burning it can also be used to heat metal bars for forging. I am doing this gratis due to my personal interest, but I normally make my living selling ironwork and teaching how to do it. I am sure I can answer any questions you might have. I also have done quite a bit of casting, but more in aluminum than anything else. i did cast bronze parts for horse drawn sleighs, so if you don't have local help perhaps I can give advice. Realize the local high school shop instructor or technical school instructor may know quite a bit about casting and may be good help.
Whew, lots of food for thought, and thank you. The melting oven I am building is small, and will use a #6 crucible, which will give me about 18 lbs. capacity for bronze and brass, more than enough for my purposes. It is propane fired, basically a small drum lined with refractory rated to about 2800 degrees f, and opens at the top. Mostly, I will be making the plates for the manuballista spring frame, as well as a few trigger parts. Also, I can cast various other Roman projects, and bronze tribolate and bibolate arrow heads. Little ones too for the tiny "flies" they shot out of wooden channels held against the bow handle. I have to learn the thumb ring method to use that.
It is important to me to have cast washers rather than machined ones. There was a short supply of machinists in AD 1, eh? :)
Sorry to hear about the limits your doc put on you, but take care of yourself now and get back to work probably sooner than later.
I was sort of thinking of making videos for posting strictly here, but maybe something more indepth as a side line would be cool. Let's talk about that more later. I do have a bit of editing skills, and Adobe professional video editing software from a previous project (have to relearn it). A script would be simple enough, and yeah, audio can make a mediocre video good, while the best show can be really hurt by bad audio. Heck, I can have authentic Romans shooting the machines, and things that go splat would be nice to fire up. I plan to do some really in-depth penetration testing against decent (not butted galvanized junk chain maile) rivented and punched maile with proper linen subarmalis, so we can see what this machine can really do in an ancient combat situation. Shields as well, of course.
Good news - I have the slider close to being planed to proper dimesions, and then will make the bolt groove and begin fitting the stock into the frame. I don't anticpate any problems with that process, and then I can make the belly rest out of ash, pegged to the stock end. I'll probably pad the end with leather down the road.
-
Andy, he does such amazing work, but his prices are a bit too much for me for now, but thanks very much for the offer - I don't want you paying for it.
Dane
Salve Dane!
hey i dont mind getting a point for you,i really want to see what this baby can do and we know the heads important to the destruction >:D,it deserves a good accurate one.
But if Clinker can make you them then all the better,i sent a Hector cole head to Lloyd (LA) and it took over two weeks to arrive! i thought someone had pinched it,lol.
Clinker2,this is Hector Cole's version of the Type 18,would go lovely out of a manubalista ;D.
(http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/images/T18romansocket.gif)
Man, that is a sweet and deadly looking point! If I can remburse you, or do something in kind, I'd be happy to do that.
Dane
-
No worries mate,seeing the destruction caused is enough for me,just post pics! ;D
I'll order a type 18 when i get my next ones,you want it with a half inch socket dont you? or do you want a Tanged one? I dont think he makes them any larger than 1/2 inch.I fancy a Type 15 Devizes,what a brute! >:D
(http://www.hectorcoleironwork.com/images/type15.gif)
-
Andy, you made my day! Thanks so much! Socketed, 1/2 would be ideal. That type 15 is sooo evil looking. Nice stuff.
Dane
-
No problem mate,my pleasure ;D.
I've placed an order with him,it usually takes him a week or two to get onto your stuff so when it arrives i'll pm you for the address to send it.I think your right going for a socketed head,i've never used a tanged design but i havent heard a lot of good thing's about them,just a lot of split shafts.
Pax
-
Andy, some barbarian pumpkins have your name on them! :) Thanks so very much. I just came in from working on the machine, and am covered in sawdust and shavings still (the wife loves when I track it through the house, not :) ) - the slider is now basically done, have to route in the bolt groove next.
Regarding the tanged heads, one guy in Regia told me a while back he heats the tang up red hot and in it goes into a pre-drilled pilot hole in the shaft. I guess for a war shaft that you only expect to shoot once, it might not be as much of an issue, but for those of us who spend hours and bucks on our precious arrows, not so great. Never tried it myself, though I have some cheap tanged heads around here I plan to play with.
Not having to worry about spining the shafts for this machine will be very nice, too.
-
The heads arrived Dane,if you could PM me the address to send it i'll pop it in the post for you,it's bloody lovely by the way ;D.
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7259/pe18rp4.th.jpg) (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pe18rp4.jpg)
(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6581/sot18ge9.th.jpg) (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sot18ge9.jpg)
(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5885/t18wk8.th.jpg) (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t18wk8.jpg)
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7682/tp18yj5.th.jpg) (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tp18yj5.jpg)
(http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7949/type18zw5.th.jpg) (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=type18zw5.jpg)
-
Andy, today is Xmas, and you are St. Nicholas! Thank you so much!
Dane
-
Curious here! How much better was the roman ballista over a bow or crossbow? I've seen some things on the history chanel but they did not really impress me to much as to how mush more powerfull they were over a bow. Was it increased range? Better punch or what?
-
That is a freaking awesome point can't wait to see this finished Dane.
-
Curious here! How much better was the roman ballista over a bow or crossbow? I've seen some things on the history chanel but they did not really impress me to much as to how mush more powerfull they were over a bow. Was it increased range? Better punch or what?
I think the first advantage is sheer power. I have no idea exactly how much poundage this machine will have, and the one reconstruction made from the actual artifact was undepowered (not enough rope was used for the torsion springs on the reconstruction), and that is really one of my top priorities. They were far too powerful to span (draw) like a self bow, or a cross bow, so you use your entire body weight to span this machine. A curved and padded belly rest will go at the end of the stock to facilitate spanning. All accounts show these had a very fast, flat tragectory, and unlike self bow arrows, which you can see coming at you (especially in massed volley fire), the ballista bolts were impossible to spot until you were skewered. There is one instance with a larger scorpion where the enemy warrior was literrally pinned to a tree through the spine. The bolts punched through shields and any known armor, and were used as sniper weapons out farther than the range of a bow, they were so accurate.
Here is the home page of Airot Iriatre, who is heavily involved in Roman artillary. http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Aitor/Aitor%20Iriarte.htm His specilization is the later metal framed machines (cheiroballistra) but I can't find any performance info on his site for his own work.
Testing will be indepth for this machine, including chronograph, maile penatration testing, flight shooting, etc. I do plan to shoot some videos to post here showing the machine in action. I only wish I could finish it tomorrow and get it to the range! But, it should be done by this coming spring.
Dane
-
That is a freaking awesome point can't wait to see this finished Dane.
Isn't it a great point! I'm really psyched, and will name that bolt in Andy's honor (and under no circumstances loose that bolt :) ).
Dane
-
Dane are you going to make the Ballista with inward or outward pulling arms? I tend to think the inward pulling arms would produce a lot more torsion and velocity on the bolts.
David T
-
Outward swinging arms for both the baby scorpion and the larger 4" one (meaning spring diameter). I am not that interested in the inward swinging ones for now, these are enough of a project for the time being, but you are right, far more efficient. The metal framed ones are a much later design idea, as well, and my own interest in Roman history lays primarily with the earler periods. One day, perhaps, but the woodwork is part of what is so appealing about making these machines.
I was just calculating bronze requirements (still working on the numbers). Yet another skill to acquire. Casting my own parts will save a huge amount of money over finding a machinist willing to do the work, and I'll have more bragging rights, :)
-
An update about the process of planning to cast the bronze plates, washers (called choinikides in Greek, modiolus in Latin), linear ratchets, pawls, and trigger assembly.
I worked out the dimensions of each part in cubic inches, multiplying that number by the density of bronze, the rule of thumb (different alloys would change that slightly) being .3125 pounds per cubic inch. So, a plate 8.5” long by 1” wide at 0.125 inches in depth (1/8”) would need .664 lbs of metal, and if I make it .0625” thick (1/16”), it will be .332 lbs. of bronze. Keep in mind I need to go over the numbers quite a few more times to make sure I don’t come up short during a casting run.
Overall, I will need approx. 4.026 lbs. of bronze at .0125 thick, and half that, 2.0113 lbs. at .0625”. This is for the plating alone. Factoring in the linear ratchets and pawls and bowstring pawl, and the modiolus and associate counter-plates, we are talking about 7 lbs. of bronze, with heavier thickness components. Probably, I will go with the more sturdy parts, and factor in more bronze for spurs and gates, of course. I expect the machine will come in at around 15 pounds when completed.
As for alloys, I may use silicon bronze, but am starting to source scrap metal dealers in my area to give me perhaps better prices and increased options. I only hope the evil Breaker from the movie 13 Ghosts is not lurking around when I visit scrap yards, lol.
I will be positing photos of my melting oven when it is complete (only partially built now), but if you can picture 2.5’ tall metal cylinder lined with refractory (furnace concrete) with a hinged lid and on a wheeled cart made of rebar, you have a good idea of what the thing will look like. It will be fired with regular propane in a standard bbq tank, with a 10’ hose attached to a commercial adjustable regulator to give me up to 35 pounds of pressure, more than the standard 5 pound regulator you get on your grill. It will weigh about 90 lbs, and the basic tools I will be using will be a #6 clay graphite crucible, iron crucible tongs, iron pouring shank, safety clothing, face shield, stirring rods, etc. The molds will be green sand molds in wooden flasks. The bottom edges of the plates will be beveled inward as part of the pattern I’ll make for the parts, to facilitated creating the sand mold and to give clean plate to plate joints when attached to the machine with the bronze nails. Safety is my absolutely number 1 priority during casting, as exploding molten bronze would not be fun to be around. That would make a bow exploding on a tillering tree pale in comparison, eh :).
BTW, bit of trivia: Katapeltes is the Greek word we derive the word catapult from, and means shield piercer or breaker.
-
Sounds awesome Dane but we must have pictures ;) You just know Justin is gonna complain unless there are pictures ;D
-
Dana, a photo of my sheet of scrawled figures will be very boring :)
I will indeed post pics as soon as something is pic-worthy.
Dane
-
Dane, are you sure no one out there is making these for sale? Might be a lot easier and less frustrating! ;D If you find them let me know and I will definatly find a way to buy one!
David T
-
I've never seen any for sale or with the correct string for that matter,Dane's making something special here.
Andy
-
Dane, are you sure no one out there is making these for sale? Might be a lot easier and less frustrating! ;D If you find them let me know and I will definatly find a way to buy one!
David T
As Andy stated, no one I have seen makes these as an item you can purchase retail, or even customized. I do know of one Englishman who does build Roman machines on commission, though, Len is his first name.
Dane
-
I've never seen any for sale or with the correct string for that matter,Dane's making something special here.
Andy
Thanks Andy. I have made a big decision today, and hope you are not disappointed.
Instead of sinew rope for the springs, I have made the decision to make horsehair rope, a good alternative, cheaper, and very historically correct. In fact, I just place an order for 1 lb. of horse hair (tail hair) to get started. I'll be pressing my spinning wheel into action soon! Although, I can also use my hand spindle to make it more authentic. I plan to practice with it tonight on wool fiber, since I am not very good with a spindle yet.
Man, I can not believe how many skills are being pressed into the completion of this machine.
-
Pic of spinning in action? ;D
-
Sure, but only when I have material to spin (in this case, using the spinning wheel to create threads). I have no indea yet how much rope one can make from a pound of horsehair, but we will all find out.
Dane
-
Dane,
You'll probably be able to mount this "scorpion" onto the back of your truck.....whooooooweeee.......
-
lol, Jim. Actually, I drive a Saab 93 hatchback, and part of the design criteria for the large scorpion is that it fit into the back when broken down into component parts.
I have a buddy who's wife is totally paranoid about going to Manhattan even for one day. We talked about mounting it in the back of his truck, and I can protect her when she shops. "Okay, dismount and get into FAO Schwartz. Move! Move! Move! I'm covering you!" You never know with those crazy NYC barbarians.
It would look like something out of the Road Warrior :)
-
Dane, you start building these arround the size that can be carried and I might be interrested....If I can find the money! :-)
Just wonder how they compare to medieval crosbows? Better? The Same? Or oh my god why the heck did we invent rifles!!! ;D
-
Had a thought Dane perhaps PatB would be willing to cut his beard and send it to ya, I'm sure there would be enuf hair there to
make a rope, back a bow, and insulate the house. ;) ;D Of course he might get a bit chilly in those bitter North Carolina winters ::)
-
Dane, you start building these arround the size that can be carried and I might be interrested....If I can find the money! :-)
Just wonder how they compare to medieval crosbows? Better? The Same? Or oh my god why the heck did we invent rifles!!! ;D
Ah, but the smaller machine I am posting pictures of as I built it is man portable. It will come in around 15 lbs, and will be about 40" long in total. Not as light as a crossbow, but far more powerful, I suspect. Why would the Greek and Roman engineers spend centuries prefecting these weapons in the first place? The complexity of the rope torsion machines probably had the most to do with the almost total disapperance of these types of engines after Roman fell (a very broad statement, that!). I and some others are thinking of these as crew served, but one man can easily tote it around and fire it as quickly as you can cock it and get a new bolt in it. The rate of fire for this small machine must be really decent, as well, and I have read reports from Roman reenactors with large machines getting of 3 or 4 bolts a minute, so my assumption is that this machine has a high rate of fire when utilized optimally. I'm also guessing that this machine will be very accurate, to the point of using it for sniping at long range. Another advantage, perhaps, is that the arrow firing machines would have had a better range than even full powered war bows deployed by enemy forces.
I plan to make a leather sling for it so I can carry it in the field, in parades, etc. since it is relatively light.
I am seriously considering a power thickness planer to make future machines easier to build. The hand planing was one of the most time consuming processes thus far, as well as making the mortise and tenon joints. A power mortising machine would take care of that, but I would much rather have a thickness planer as the one major power tool for this work. I have access to other power tools, such as drill presses, so no worries there. A perfect historical way of doing this would be only hand tools from the Roman period, but that would be very challenging. No slaves to help out, either, :).
What is so exciting and daunting about this project is that I am in unfamiliar or unknown territory all the way through, in fabricating each part, estimating volume of bronze, making patterns for all the metal parts (which I am starting this weekend), making rope, etc. I have ordered horsehair to start making the ropes for the spring skeins, which I am not worried about after making so many bow strings. The wife will love when I tell her I need a rope walk, lol.
I also get to take on (sort of, :) ) all these nifty Roman titles that Immunes, or speicalized craftsmen in the legions had. Ballistrarii (makers and operators of ballista), sagittarii (arrow makers, or bolts in this case), aerarii (bronze workers), and fabri, the men working fabricae, or workshops. Of course, each specialist would contribute to the whole machine, and the friends here who are contributing to this work do kind of fill that role, meaning my friend the smith from the Ozarks who is crafting bronze nails, and Loki, who is sending me that really special point forged by Hector Cole.
More pics soon.
Dane
-
Had a thought Dane perhaps PatB would be willing to cut his beard and send it to ya, I'm sure there would be enuf hair there to
make a rope, back a bow, and insulate the house. ;) ;D Of course he might get a bit chilly in those bitter North Carolina winters ::)
But what about the little bird families, and those possums living in there? No, we can't be cruel to our wildlife. :)
Dane
-
Okay, just got in a 1 lb. bundle of horse hair, 27" - 29" inches long today. Really excited to start making yarn, and then rope with this stuff. Eyeballing it, I have no honest idea how much hair I will need in total. I played with the idea of making a primitive ropewalk, but the diameter of the stuff I will need for the manuballista is not that great.
The color is just beautiful, so it should make handsome rope. Colors I had a choice from from my supplier include black, mixed, sorrel, white, etc. The lighter colors are dramatically more expensive. In a way, it will be a shame to have most of the rope springs hidden behind the plating, but the springs will be visible from the back of the weapon, so I can show how the springs work.
Wish me a bit of luck on this part, but I don't expect too many problems. I do have a book coming in specifically for making rope out of horse hair, and will read that before beginning. Oh, btw, mostly horse hair rope is apparently made for macarte, a kind of horse thingie. Since I am no cowboy, I can't say much more about it.
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Dane I'm going to my in laws tommow and they have 4 horses should I bring my scissors? ;D
Your a man of many talents Dane, please post some pics of the rope building process.
BTW your article on the northern bow was awesome, of course I would have let them rebs use a tater sack ;D
-
Now what ever ya do dont try an smoke it! Its not HEMP!!! ;D
-
What! I thought is a big honking blunt! :) That is really why I wanted it.
-
Dane I'm going to my in laws tommow and they have 4 horses should I bring my scissors? ;D
Your a man of many talents Dane, please post some pics of the rope building process.
BTW your article on the northern bow was awesome, of course I would have let them rebs use a tater sack ;D
lol, Dana. I will indeed document and write about the entire rope making process, with photos. I plan to press my spining wheel into making the smaller threads, possibly. My pug will of course end up in some shots (she is in one shot, you can just see her drinking water). I am really looking forward to this part of the project.
I have to wonder if this stuff would make into bow strings? Guess we will find out. I seem to recall reading about human hair bow strings in one of the Norse Sagas.
-
I think you can make a bowstring from horse hair. Dont know how thick it would need to be but I would say GO FOR IT!!
-
Dane I'm prety sure horse hoir will make a bow string. I have old fly tippets made of horse hair, haven't used em
they are a collectors item, but I am amazed at how tough they are. Horses beware ;D Of course Davenport needs to be in the pics as he is the cute one ;)
And most likely the master as well ::)
-
Dane I'm going to my in laws tommow and they have 4 horses should I bring my scissors? ;D
Your a man of many talents Dane, please post some pics of the rope building process.
BTW your article on the northern bow was awesome, of course I would have let them rebs use a tater sack ;D
Yeah, bring scissors. They will love you as much as my inlaws love me (not!). Thanks about the article. I'm really pleased overall. Hillbilly did a fantastic job on his article. As for the tater sack, pity got the best of me :)
BTW, Davenport is the master. You are correct. She got me up at 3:30 wanting to play, but I get up at 4:00 anyway, so no big deal, even if it is my day off.
-
I think you can make a bowstring from horse hair. Dont know how thick it would need to be but I would say GO FOR IT!!
Okay, I will. Dana is right, it seems really tough, much more so than I had expected it to. I have to determine the strength of the stuff so I can apply the x4 rule, but it should make into an interesting string. I only hope that it doesn't want an apple of a sugar cube, ha ha. And along those lines of thought, I can tell little girls the string is made from horse hair, but don't be sad, Flicka didn't suffer much.
-
Good Flicka! Good Flika!!! BANG!!! BETTER FLIKA!!!! >:D See Franch Se likes them horses Unh, Hungh, Hunh! Ne ce Pas!!! >:D
-
Okay, more building photos.
I have rough cut the tenon that will hold the stock onto the spring frame. Notice, no nails or screws to keep the machine together. The machine will break down into the stock and the frame components when done.
I still have final fitting to do (hence it sticks out here), but the little dovetailed piece will be pegged and glued between the two interior uprights. The dovetailed slot will match up with the stock dovetail. Then the slider is inserted into both. Then I can work down the stock to final dimensions and start planing and sanding the stock. I will also begin the horizontal belly brace, which fits onto the end of the stock . That is what you lean on to push the slider up as you span (draw) the weapon. The last big step for the stock is the cut in slots for the linear ratchet, one on each side. I can make the pattern to cast those out of bronze once I have that step done.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Wow.....she's gonna be heavy ain't she.....I can't wait to see this thing fling a sapling....
Isn't Archimede's the one that came up with this original design? I mean the torsion springs?
-
Hi Jimmy. Thanks for the comments. Not sure if the principle was developed by Achimedes, though the idea does come out of Greece. These machines date back to at least 400 BC, so pretty ancient. I am not sure anyone knows exactly when the torsion spring was applied to siege engines, though. Up till then, they were using composite bows (some just gigantic), and had reached the upper limits of what that could do in a war engine.
-
Archimede's was the man who figured out the Block and tackle lever system "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth." ;D.He invented a lot of useful objects,hiis Screw invention for draining water was a wonder for the irrigation of Egypt's fields after the annual Nile flooding but i'm dubius on the Military inventions.I could see the Sun ray what he 'supposedly' used to burn Roman Galley's doing damage to the mens eye's but set a sail on fire......And how about his 'Ships Claw',getaway! A claw for picking up attacking ships and capsizing them ;D,nahh i'm not buying that!
Imagine what he could of done for Rome if Marcellus had managed to get to him before that legionarie had shoved his Gladii into his Gut's at Syraccuse,such a waist of a wonderful mind.
As you say Dane the Horsehair string is historicaly accurate so no disapointment from me mate,this thing's looking great!
The head should be arriving soon Dane,let me know when it arrives safe.
Pax
-
Hey, I need to build one of those gigantic claws! Then I can threaten cruise ships unless they send down women and beer, :)
Andy, it arrived today! What a thing of beauty it is, too! I can't thank you enough. Hector Cole does amazing work, and seeing it in person is far more satisfying than in photos.
I may be the first kid on my block, and even the state of Massachusetts with one of his points, thanks to you. It will do some evil damage. Not to Frenchmen, but maybe Gauls? :)
Dane
-
WOW,that was quick! Its nice isnt it?i was tempted....... ;D
Hector Cole is a damn fine Arrowsmith allright,his points are top notch and this machine deserves no less,i'm glad you like it Dane it was my pleasure.
Aye,Gaul's will do >:D
-
Okay, kids, another installment of "How the Torsion Machine Turns." I just got finished with some work, mostly working on the stock and slider, much better looking, and I also glued in that dovetail piece between the uprights (pegging it tomorrow). I have also placed the FANTASTIC, WONDERFUL point Loki send me on the machine so you could see that. The walnut dowl is the right length for the bolts, 12.5", and the correct diameter.
I still have a lot of work to do on the front tenion, but it is coming along.
And happy Thanksgiving to all! Guess what I am making for dinner tomorrow? :)
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Looking good Dane,i hope that head doesnt get caught up in the channel on release,that could be very nasty :-[.
-
Thanks, Andy, and I dont think that will be an issue at all. Should have a nice smooth release up the groove and to the Gaul's filtthy head, :)
Funny thing, my wife just came downstairs and saw it. She suddenly realizes this is not just some toy. You could kill someone with that thing, she said. I am very proud of myself, lol.
Dane
-
And rightly so Dane, Its looking really good. You should come to pappy's in May and bring your toys ;D
If anywhere along the line you need sinew for this death device let me know I have tons of it.
-
Thanks much, Dana. And thanks for the sinew offer. I don't think so, but if I do, I will let you know.
This is one of the most fun projects I have ever undertaken. No spining of arrows, either! I wonder if it would be legal to hunt game with this thing in Massachusetts? Kind of doubt it. I do believe that crossbows are illegal in the state, but this is not a crossbow, though.
I'd love to go to the Tennessee classic this coming year, or any year. Bit of a drive, but I can't think of a nicer vacation. One day, and I will bring the machines with me. My concertina too, to torture all the Rebs :)
-
You could probably swing that as a cross bow....just a big one...LOL's...
You bring a squeeze box down here and we'll have you playing Cajun music in no time.... ;D
-
;D
-
I'd love to learn some Cajun tunes. Got the sea chanties down, and some beloved murder ballads. Good to expand your repetoire, to use a French word :)
-
sounds like it's gonna be a fun camp fire :D
-
Man, I just looked at the last even pages of this thread.
Being new to this forum, two things impressed me big time,
the prjoject itself, the obvious work that is going into the research (book on horse hair rope making?!?!) and the enthusiasm.
and secondly the overwhelming positive support from your buddies! It's like making rock soup, where evryone brings something to the pot. Again, I'm impressed and am eagerly looking forward to watching this unfold! Right on.
Lets see if you all get so worked up when I make a Roman period earwax harvester, complete with type 18 (or is it 16 3/4) socket mounted horse hair q-tip. This little guy accounted for many brutal deaths and complete ear canal domination for quite some time!
-
Sound like it would rub ya the wrong way! ;D
-
bet them "wild hairs" hurt ;D ::)
-
Guys, I got swamped totally with work and Thanksgiving and life stuff. I'll reply in full tonight, and thanks for all the interest.
Dane
-
Man, I just looked at the last even pages of this thread.
Being new to this forum, two things impressed me big time,
the prjoject itself, the obvious work that is going into the research (book on horse hair rope making?!?!) and the enthusiasm.
and secondly the overwhelming positive support from your buddies! It's like making rock soup, where evryone brings something to the pot. Again, I'm impressed and am eagerly looking forward to watching this unfold! Right on.
Lets see if you all get so worked up when I make a Roman period earwax harvester, complete with type 18 (or is it 16 3/4) socket mounted horse hair q-tip. This little guy accounted for many brutal deaths and complete ear canal domination for quite some time!
Those Roman q-tips are quite leathal, so be careful when you test them. I understand when the Romans sacked a town, they methodically killed every living thing in sight, including women, childern, dogs, cats, everything. They may have used those earwax harvesters to do that. Once the town surrendered, they spared those with dirty ears, and commenced looting.
Got some more work done on the machine. The front tenion is almost done, and I've started making molding patterns.
I've appreciated all the ecouraging words from all of you. Not an easy project, but knowing folks are watching and positive about it really helps when the going gets tough.
Dane
-
I wouldnt recommend using the wax spoons Eric,if that thing goes in too far it will rupture your eardrum and it's not nice lying down for three months waiting for your equilibrium to come back,i've had it twice!
Nothing to do with those thing's i must add :D.
I understand when the Romans sacked a town, they methodically killed every living thing in sight, including women, childern, dogs, cats, everything.
Depends what you mean by 'Sack',not all beaten foes were treated to 'havoc' that was reserved for the enemies who Rome feared the most or those who betrayed her.The usual treatment of 'beaten' people was to be sold into slavery,the army functioned on slave money especially during the Republic when that was what the men fought for,paywise.
"Cry Havoc!and let slip the dog's of war.."
"Let them loose!! "
Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus demolished Jerusalem for their betrayal and refusal to surrender,he killed everyone in the city even the animals,pulled down all the building's,including Herods temple.One part of the temple outer wall was left standing,that's the wailing wall the Jews in Israel pray at today.Titus built the Colosseum with the money he plundered from Jerusalem.
When Manilius and Scipio sacked Carthage,they destroyed the city (they didnt salt the eart thats ridiculous,salt cost a fortune in 148BC) but they sold the 50,000 inhabitant's into slavery,not that they needed too,the cash they got from that City was what built Rome into the greatest Empire the world's ever seen,IMHO.
There was allso seiges when the Generals lost control of the men and they charged into the slaughter before be ordered to do so,such as Aviricum when the mighty Caesar didnt order the sack but it was done anyway.
Any city/town or Fort could surrender at anytime right up untill the first Ram touches the wall/gate.Once the Ram had touched surrender wouldnt be accepted,they were coming in! and we know how good the Roman army was at Seige,Alesia WOW :D .
Pax
Andy
-
I've appreciated all the ecouraging words from all of you. Not an easy project, but knowing folks are watching and positive about it really helps when the going gets tough.
Dane
We are not merely watching, we are sitting on the edges of our seats! If you ever have a moment to spare, even if you think you have not made sufficient progress to merit a new pic, post one anyway, we are that eager ... from a different angle, of you tools … we really need one of the parts with Davenport, for perspective. ;)
-
Andy, thanks for the brief history lesson! Facinating stuff!
Wolfsire, can do and thanks for the words. Davenport will be happy to have her picture posted. And more from me soon on the project, when I get a free moment.
Dane
-
Dane when this done I want to come play with yer toys, they are so much cooler than mine ;D
Did I say cooler man I'm showing my age eh. ;)
-
Well, groovy is a regular vocabulary word for me, so I guess I am stuck in the 70s, lol.
I've been up since 2:00 AM (has to do with a bus and a TV show in NY, dropped the wife off at her college, and now I can't sleep), Davenport the Pug is laying on the couch near my desk and snoring, so if you don't mind, I'll blab a bit.
Found a couple of groovy books that relate to this project. One I found in a used book store last week, called "Catapult: Harry and I Build a Siege Weapon," by Jim Paul, published in 1991. It's a strange and fun book, this guy's ruminations as he and a buddy build a catapult. The weapon they build is not Roman, but is basically two huge truck leaf springs bolted to a 10 foot long beam, with a comealong to span it. He goes into all kinds of ancient and bibilcal history, the origins of iron smelting, his relationship with his father, geology and paleohistory, scavanging for parts, and lots more.
I also found this little phamphlet called "Making Horsehair Rope" by Diane Gadway and Richard Schneider, published in 1993. Essentially, it is how to build a primative rope walk using 3 people to make rope, using techniques still used in Mexico. The techniques and processes they outline in the book are essentially the same as the rope makers who made the countless miles of rope in seaports all over the world (the rope jack, which you crank on to twist the smaller stands into rope, is called the Tosidora, and the traveler, which a second man used to keep tension on the other end of the ropes (the bitter ends) is called a Yegua in Spanish) until the age of sail ended and automatic machinery replaced skilled rope making.
There is one historic working ropewalk in the world in England, but here in Charlestown Naval Yard, outside of Boston, is the longest ropewalk (and maybe the only one left) in the US. I'll have to go visit it one day. They call them ropewalks, by the way, as the master rope maker has to walk backwards. They did a ton of walking, as a matter of fact, and for the really huge cable laid ropes that you could moor a ship with, it took 200 men to make the rope (and btw, the ropewalk building was very long and narrow, and the ultimate length of the rope was determined by the length of the building. Imagine a low brick shed, but hundreds of feet long, up to 240 yards long).
Luckily, I don't need rope that big.
I wonder if I can talk my wife into helping me? Mmmmm....maybe not. I don't know if I can do it alone, but there is a solution to every problem. No worries now though. Probably bribe someone with pizza and beer into helping me.
Here is a link to how to build a miniature ropewalk for making rope for model ship buidling, so you can get an idea of how they work in practice. A tiny one like this might be neat to build for making bowstings? I'll have to give it a go one day, just to see. It would also be good practice before I put together the full-sized rope jack, traveler, and top. How the Romans made rope, I am not sure right now, but I understand these tools date to the medieval period, so I still need to research all this some more. No one, of course, will know if I use 19th century-style tools, so be very quiet.
http://www.members.cox.net/elarson5/ropewalk.htm
One of Lil's collegues was over for a bit last night, a fellow English professor. The bundle of horsehair was on the dining room table where they were sitting and talking, and she asked about it. So, I had to explain that I am building a couple of siege engines, and got the "you are a weirdo" look, polite but unmistakable.
And that is all from me for now. Thanks for indulging me.
Dane
-
Just finished up a project-in-progress, a miniature rope jack and traveler. I am going to bend the brass rods into the correct hook and crank shapes tomorrow, and then make a hardwood 3-strand top (granada or pomegranate in Spanish - kind of makes me think of carne assada and maragritas!). I can practice with this small one, and then build much larger tools, using thick hardwood planks. This was made from a hickory plank I had in my shop, and the rods and the sleeves are brass stock from a hobby store.
This has been a fun mini-project, and I hope to try it out soon, using some linen thread. I wonder if this would be any good for making bow strings? I will post photos showing it in action soon.
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Yer a man of many talents Dane. Obiously yer way too edukated to really be a redneck ;)
Thats ok we still like ya ;D
-
Dude, how can I be a redneck when I'm from Southern Cal, and hence, a surfer boy? :)
Thanks Dana.
-
Looking good Dane,did the jack work?
-
I ended up having to work yesterday, and so was diverted. It should work just fine, though. Soon as I can, I'll finish it up and give a report.
Dane
-
A bit more musing from me, if you will indulge me. This thread seems to be turning into philosophy 101.
I finished a book last night called "Catapult: Harry and I Build a Seige Weapon." It is a strange and facinating book, and in a way, is not about the actual building of the machine, but of the process, how it alters the authors perceptions and world view. What began as a fun lark ended up becoming a war machine, what he and others described as "mean-looking." It was always great fun, though, including firing stones into the ocean at the end of the book. The guys in the book thought perhaps they were making a toy, but that is not what emerged.
I have to wonder about that myself, but not in the same way. I look at many bows here, and the majority of the weapons are made for hunting. I myself am not a hunter, but love venision, and have no issues at all with those who hunt with traditional weapons. Someday, I do hope to go hunting, actually. LA, where I grew up, is not an enclave for hunters, maybe!
The historic war weapons, like the great English warbow, the Asiatic bows, crossbows, etc., have similarities to a hunting or sport weapon, but the intent behind them is entirely different.
This is neither bad nor good, but it what it is. But as I progress in this project, I seem to be "plugging into" a mindset that is far different than any other for any other project I have ever undertaken, including bows, shelving, clothing, cooking, and so on, so I look at this project in a way that is entirely new in archery, but not perhaps in other aspects of my life and past.
My wife seems to enjoy seeing this machine as it emerges, but she has made some interesting comments. It was a crazy collection of wooden components and sketches and so on at first. Once I got the frame and stock set for some photos which I posted earlier in this thread, she took a long look at it and said wow, this is serious. This is dangerous looking.
And it is. Even without the springs or bow arms, the potential built into the machine is there as you look at it, like a power that kind of hums just beyond our range of hearing. And it is a seductive kind of power, too, which I think you have to embrace as the machine comes into existance. The design drives that, and without it, I don't know if it would be possible to finish it.
I am no pacifist, and served in the US Army as an infantryman, and recall that I had all sorts of options for various training schools and MOSs (Military Occupational Specialty), based on my testing scores. But, the only thing that interested me was being a grunt, and if I could do it all over again, I would go down the same route. As a rifleman, your weapon is an extension of yourself. It is a personal kind of relationship that makes your weapon not a tool but part of who you are. This manuballista seems to have the same kind of vibe to me now, if that makes any sense at all. I think it will be a beautful machine when it is done, glittering bronze, burnished steel, glowing wooden components, horsehair rope, and that beauty will bring out the lethal nature of the beast, too. I see that in some of the amazing armor suits from the high middle ages, or the dueling pistols with fantastic engraving. The beautiful craft that makers lavished on these weapons seems to make them deadlier looking.
And that is all for now.
Dane
-
I just read this little book:
http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Technology-Underground-Catapults-Flamethrowers/dp/0307351254/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196700533&sr=8-4
Which has a chapter on catapults and related devices. The author is the same guy who put out "Backyard Ballistics", and he has an entire book devoted to ancient hurling machines as well.
I recently read Payne-Gallwey's book on crossbows, and he devotes the ending chapters to these devices as well.
-
I have the backyard ballistics book. He loves PVC piping.
I have that book as well. Some great illustrations throughout, including one of some dogs trained to retrieve bolts at the target butts. That would come iin handy, but my Pug probably is too smart to fetch arrows. :) I'm not sure how much you can trust his ideas, though.
Dane
-
Hehe- my two retrievers (one Golden, one Labby) want desperately to retrieve my arrows, but they like to eat 'em!
-
Hey Dane,take a look at this!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qGzYumLxYSI
-
So, how powerful is this? FPS? I did see the youtube video. Very cool. Can't wait to see it as it progresses.
-
Hey Andy, thanks for posting this video! Very cool seeing this manuballista (scorpio minor is what I may end up calling mine) in action. Like many Internet videos, I wish it was higher resolution and quality, and will endeavor to take that into consideration when I shoot some video. Couldn’t tell much about how accurate the machine was, and how far those flight shots were, either. I would kill for some video of in-depth testing too (and accompanying data) – one big reason I am building my machine.
Interesting how they engineered the trigger locking plate as a stationary component at the end of the stock. My use of linear saw-tooth ratchets will give me much more control over how much power I can eke out of the machine, in concert with the two torsion springs – these guys don’t have that much control. Also, they used nylon rope for the springs, whereas horsehair ropes will give better performance. I think my other criticism is that they didn’t fully fill the spring holes, based on seeing and reading about this reconstruction on RAT and seeing photos of it in the museum in Germany. This legio built two identical machines, one for the Xantan display, and the other for their own use, I believe. I wrote to them about their work, but haven’t heard back yet.
That vertical shoulder rest thingie is troublesome too. Alan Wilkins strikes again! But, it is very beautiful workmanship overall. Looks like a bunch of fun too! Which in the end is one of the big reasons we are all into sharp point things that travel at high velocity.
Eric, no one seems to know. The published work based on the Xantan find (they found it in a gravel pit, something like that) has not been forthcoming yet, seven years after it was uncovered. And as I mentioned, they didn't maximize the potential of the reconstruction. I will be doing as much testing as possible with my machine (which, though not a carbon copy of this machine, will I think be a reasonable reconstruction). Any suggestions for testing procedures and goals and all that would be appreciated, as that is something I have never done before. Being honest about what the tests say, and not testing to support any pre-drawn conclusions is paramount.
-
Dane,
Testing suggestion: Stack of pigs to see how many you can penetrate. >:D Pigs are a good proxy for humans, maybe you can find something cheeper, or maybe, if the timing is right, you can get some wild boar, or other animals from hunts on loan for testing.
That video was cool, as was your commentary.
I understand your criticism, but I liked the spanning and though a foot step might make it easier.
-
Hey there Wolfsire.
Thanks for the comments. I am not sure I would want to shoot a stack of pigs. Don’t get me wrong, pork is one of my very favorite things, next to beef and venison (though bison is excellent, when I can get it). Makes me a bit queasy thinking of that – guess I’m a wimp.
I even raised a pig in high school to see what agriculture is about, believe it or not. Me, a kid in the Los Angeles suburbs, and I decided to take a commercial agriculture class. I was fond of my animal, even though I knew his ultimate fate on the market. I didn’t actually name him, if I recall right. I was supposed to have been allowed to butcher him, but that didn’t happen. Pissed off a bit, if I recall, showing up one day and the pigs were all gone from the sty. I think I lost money on the project, as the pork prices were lousy at the time the pig went to slaughter. I may have broken even, though. Gave me a lot of respect for farmers, for sure.
Wow, haven’t thought of that project in ages. My poor pig, I hardly knew ye. I hope his ribs and sides of bacon made someone very happy. :)
You know, I seem to recall reading once that many years ago, the US Army was doing ballistics testing with small arms, and shot up a bunch of live tethered goats. That must have been ghastly.
Is there some other way of testing penetration to proximate humans? Ballistic materials, that kind of thing? Like CSI, I guess :). Anyone have any ideas? My future brother in law is a NYPD lieutenant – maybe I can ask him what they use. Heck, maybe I can talk him into having the city forensic guys get involved? That would be so cool.
I do want to make proper subarmillis (sp?) and find and use correct riveted maille in some tests (not galvanized butted junk, in other words). I already have access to some old but correctly constructed shields for shield penetration testing at various ranges as my legion upgrades to some new shields.
Oh yeah, seeing how the weapon is spanned says a lot about how these machines work. Easier than explaining it.
Dane
-
I am guessing that there is a forum related to the show MythBusters and there is some discussion about how to approximate a human body for testing. Just a thought; worth a google.
-
Hehe- I post regularly at the Mythbusters forum. A good analog for human bodies is rather hard to find. Ballistic gel doesn't really qualify; it's only purpose is to give an approximate density of muscle tissue so that consistent results can be obtained when testing bullets. Back when I was doing a lot of shooting, water-soaked telephone books bound with twine were popular, but I don't imagine they're very close either.
I fear carcasses of some sort are the only way to go.
-
So, back to goats, is it? :)
-
Here is the belly brace, not quite done, but fairly close too. I made this by laminating a 2" and a 1" plank of ash, and shaped it with a hand saw, a hatchet, a little Viking adz I have, rasps and a hand-held belt sander. I want to work it down a bit more, but overall I am pleased. I'll be making a simple dado joint to atttach it to the end of the stock, after squaring up the stock end. I may or may not pad the belly surface with leather.
I may have made this piece a bit oversized, but I think it looks good this way, so I'm sticking with it. Never change the answers on the test, you know :) The Romans were known for making big statements, after all. It will add a bit more weight to the machine, but that will also help stabalize the weapon when shooting. Humping it during a parade (last one my legio did was a couple of weeks ago, bitterly cold in beautiful Malden, Massachusetts, and carrying a heavy machine would keep me warmer, ha ha.
Oh, notice the cheesy mocked up springs, arms, and string. I did this a week ago only to confirm the angle of the bow arms when it is spanned. The arms will be about 7.5" long, and made from much thicker ash stock. I was actually a bit worried that I messed up the lenth of the machine, so I was relieved it worked out.
At this point, the major woodworking is done on the machine. Huzzah! Next machine should go faster, of course, as I know a lot more about what I am doing, instead of groping in the dark.
Oh, at Wolfsire's request, I have Davenport T. Pug in there for perspective.
Dane
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Four more shots, including Davenport.
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Davenport is giving ya the "Foolish Human" look ;D
Cool contraption Dane, looks like the end is in sight eh.
-
Thanks Dana. Me, a foolish human? She is sitting in my lap as I type this message, of course, so you are onto something.
The major work is now casting and fitting the plating, the washers, making the rope, making the trigger assembly, and then finishing the wood. I may add some Egyptian eyes or something ancient and nifty so the gods can help me hit my target. Legio III, which is the legion my group portrays, was stationed in Alexandria, and is sometimes called the African or the Egyptian Legion. I need to also name the machine when it is done. I'm shooting for March to finished it and start shooting it.
Dane
-
Very cool Dane! I really like how this is coming along, hope it works out how you want it to! Take care mate! :)
-Alex
-
Thanks Alex. So, far, so good.
Dane
-
I made the dado joint this morning. This is my first-ever dado joint, so I pleased. After squaring up the end of the stock with a table saw, and measuring the width of the joint, I set the depth of the blade, and then made a number of passes with the table saw, cleaned it up with a wood chisel, and used a wood file to finish the joint. I was planning to peg the brace to the stock, but I don't think that will be necessary - it is very solid.
Here is the machine now, on my kitchen table (laboratory? :) ). It weighs a shade over 11 pounds as it stands now.
As I had indicated befoe, I still have a bit to do in various places, such as the front tenion, and the slider, but the woodwork is essentially done now.
Although I have seen zero reconstructed / interpreted torsion machines (tormenta was one name the Romans used, and one of my favorites) finished in an other way besides natural wood, I plan to paint this machine in bright hues. I feel very strongly that paint was used on siege engines. They were very expensive to manufacture, and the ballistrarii who build and used the machines would have lavished as much care on them as possible. Our concept of camoflauged weapons was unknown in the Classical world, and weapons were lavished with decorations. Romans liked bling.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
And here is the machine as it now looks.
Dane
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Coming along very nice. Interesting note on painting. Can you make it more intemidating that way? >:D
-
Hi, Wolfsire. Not sure if it will be more intimidating that way, but shiner. :) So, to an enemy of Rome, with thousands of legionaries marching upon the field of battle, bronze belt plates gleaming, cinculums glittering, vexillums snapping in the breeze, and armor shined brightly, I think yeah, it would be more intimidating. A nice rule of thumb is if you were on the field of battle in the morning, you remained on the field of battle that night.
Just no shark's mouths for this small ballista, by Vulcan! :)
Scarlet and gold are very much Roman colors, and the bronze by default gives me the gold.
My biggest problem for paint ideas is trying to research ancient paint. Most folks seem to like milk paint, but I'm not sure I want to go that route. It seems very 17th and 18th century, not 1st AD. That is my impression, at least. Even in Elizabethan times, all those fantastic looking exposed beams we love now were covered up by paint, sometimes in really fanciful ways, such as to simulate stone. The Roman and Greek statues you see in museums were polychromatic, meaning many colors, not plain white marble like we 21st century folks are used to. Shields were painted, carts were painted, buildings were painted, ships were painted. Torsion machines must have been painted. That is my feeling, in any case.
Dane
-
Can't help but notice but Davenport is still giving ya the" It Don't Impress Me" look ;D
I'm impressed if thats any consolation, bring it to Pappy's in May so we can play ;)
-
Here's a famous (copy) statue of the great one shown as it was meant to be seen,painted up in technicolour.
(http://www.romanhideout.com/news/2004/chimage.php?image=theguardian20041119a.jpg)
Just no shark's mouths for this small ballista, by Vulcan
;D
My biggest problem for paint ideas is trying to research ancient paint.
I'll ask the Lord of the Herb's on UNRV forum for some paint advice,he should know,i'll get back to you Dane.
Pax
-
Can't help but notice but Davenport is still giving ya the" It Don't Impress Me" look ;D
I'm impressed if thats any consolation, bring it to Pappy's in May so we can play ;)
Oh, she is very impressed. She is just good at hiding her emotions.
Thanks, Dana. I would love to do Pappy's event. If not this year, next year I hope. Sounds like a total blast. Even the wife thinks it would be a great time. :)
Dane
-
Here's a famous (copy) statue of the great one shown as it was meant to be seen,painted up in technicolour.
(http://www.romanhideout.com/news/2004/chimage.php?image=theguardian20041119a.jpg)
Just no shark's mouths for this small ballista, by Vulcan
;D
My biggest problem for paint ideas is trying to research ancient paint.
I'll ask the Lord of the Herb's on UNRV forum for some paint advice,he should know,i'll get back to you Dane.
Pax
Andy, always great you are! Thanks. Sadly, I got one of those darned red Xs - the picture doesn't like me, I think.
Dane
-
Hmmm i wonder why you cant see it ???
Anyway,it's that Statue of Augustus but with colours ;D
I've sent him a PM Dane,he'll probably get back to me tomorrow with the answers.He'll know how the Romans mixed their paint's but be warned,it may involve some crushed shellfish if you want Blues or Purples :o
Pax
-
Andy, still a blank screen, but with a purple background. I'll try googling it later.
Thanks about that paint fellow! Actually, the crushed creatures don't really phase me. To get a good red color in hand dying fabric and yarn, one is made from cochineal, and is available from some sources. Expensive, if I recall right.
Dane
-
Dane i got this message from UNRV,it appears it may be a few weeks until i can get the paint info to you,Sorry mate.
Andy,Forgive me for this intrusion to your PM Inbox. Pertinax has asked me to pass on a message to you saying he will be off forum for a short while but will help you as soon as he can when he returns.
That is all I know so I assume you will know what he means. Can you let me know you get this OK?
Brian
-
Dane i got this message from UNRV,it appears it may be a few weeks until i can get the paint info to you,Sorry mate.
Andy,Forgive me for this intrusion to your PM Inbox. Pertinax has asked me to pass on a message to you saying he will be off forum for a short while but will help you as soon as he can when he returns.
That is all I know so I assume you will know what he means. Can you let me know you get this OK?
Brian
No worries at all, Andy. Thanks for what you are doing. It will be some time before I paint the machine, after all.
I just glued up the belly rest tonight, and finally got the front tenon in nice and tight up front. The slider is planed to it's correct width, as well. Whew. Many miles to go before I sleep, the old saying goes, and lots more to do still. The journey here is certainly as much fun as the destination. And when it is all done, I start a new machine!
Oh yes, and I am still working on the large scorpion, too. Can't forget that.
Dane
-
Your going great guns!
I didnt know you were making a Scorpion too,are you going on a campaign? >:D
I saw this beast a few years ago at warwick Castle,thats a machine to make your eyes water!
Ignore the idiot talking (hate it when they do that!).
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=thiTa8wfZsc
-
"On my signal, release Hell."
Yeah, a retard he is :)
Not sure if I am going on campaign. How about we meet up and then take the tunnel to France, eh? : Errr, Land of the Gauls.
Seriously, Legio III will have 5 artillary pieces, the Atomic ballista (we fondly call it), the scorpion, the small manuballista, an onigar that is small but fun, and finally, a metal framed inswinger another guy is building.
And then, we will..."release Hell." :)
-
Dane I might suggest Lansing, MI it is definately in need of an overthrow. Send General Davenport
with weapons of mass destruction ;D
-
>:D Smelly Gauls!
The hunt for Roman paint has taken a new twist,Brian is now on the case also ;D.
Here's his PM to me.
]Salve Andy
I may be able to find something out myself on this one for you if I can trace a guy that still works for Tyne and Wear Museums. The guys name is Roger Oram andhe does all the painting of the reconstructed buildings using genuine Roman techniques. Only when some colours are not strictly known about will he use synthetics. The guy is brilliant at what he does... I knew him personally from when I was at Segedunum Roman Fort.
Anyway, if I find out anything I will let you know. Even if it is just a contact address.
-
Dana, okay, Lansing it is. General Davenport is honored to take command of our army.
Andy! Wow, this is so cool. I'm really exicited..thank everyone involved for me from the wastelands of Nova Brittania, on of the more backward provinces. Using authentic Roman painting materials and techniques will be a lot of fun to learn and apply. For lots of projects!
Dane
-
Salve Dane,
Brian has made some progress on the paint,did you receive his email (i hope i gave him the right address ???).
Here's some info for you... I was walking through Newcastle City Centre yesterday when Roger Oram (who is the guy I mentioned may help Dane with his search for Roman painting techniques) walked past me and when I realised it was him I chased him up. I now have his personal email address and he is willing to answer any questions Dane may have.
Happy solstice foks!
-
Loki, I'm pretty sure Dane is in Califonia with his folks for the holidays.
-
Andy, Brian did indeed write to me, and I responded! Thanks so much.
I will be leaving tomorrow evening, Dana, but will have access to a computer at my parent's house, so I am not entirely in the stone ages! :)
To Dana, Andy, and all, happy soltice and yuletide.
Dane
-
Happy Christmas! ;D
-
I hope everyone had a great holiday.
Here is what is new. I made up two bow arms, using the formula of the spring diameter x7. They are not finished, so keep that in mind. I am still messing about with how they will be inserted into the spring skein, and I may alter the ends. No notches yet for the sting too, of course.
These springs are simulations or mockups which I made so the machine could be displayed at an armor museum this past weekend. I made these out of jute twine. The real springs will be larger horsehair rope, and the entire holes will be filled. The little ash blocks you see the twine wrapped around over and over will be bronze and iron. Just using my fingers, I could only manage to twist the springs about 1/8th, so I can see these will be really powerful.
Attached are some shots. Oh, I did modify the belly brace, cutting about 4" off each end. It looks better, and is more handy now.
Dane
Oh, in case you were wondering, the shot of Millard Canyon has nothing to do with the machine. On my trip back to LA, my wife and I did this easy hike on my birthday on the 24th. It is one of my favorite places, in the front San Gabriel range. This spot is only a few miles from Pasadena, actually. About 1/4 mile up farther in the canyon is a 50 foot waterfall, a rare thing in Southern California.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Welcome back Dane and happy belated birthday. I see the boss was watching ya again ;)
-
Gen. Davinport and his command are looking great. ;D
-
Thanks guys. Being 45 is not toooo bad, I guess.
Thanks about Davenport. She took her first airplane ride going to LA a couple of weeks ago. Having to leave her behind would have been no good. She is helping out, and it looks like a full sized catapult in comparison to her size. Enemy poodles beware!
-
... She ... her ... She ... her ...
ooops :-[ Sorry, but seeing her next to the manuballista is like dressing a baby boy in pink. :o
I'll get it right next time. The repitition helps. Sorry, again, I know I hated it when people used to call my son, Wolf, a girl, even when he was dressed in blue. ;)
-
Ah, don't worry about that. It is a male sounding name, after all.
If you met her, you'd see why I think she and the manuballista work together. I have a hard time thinking of her as a girl. She bletches like a sailor, and is much tougher and more aggressive than many dude pooches I have met though the years. She also loves adventures of all kinds, and fireworks and thunder don't phase her at all.
Dane