Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: toomanyknots on January 14, 2013, 07:29:04 pm
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I'm just curious, I just recently started using more positive tiller than the 1/16" that I have been using. Which would normally place my arrow pass close to center, usually about 1/2" above at the very most. But now I am using a more positive tiller, at about 1/8" or a tiny bit more, as I was having a bit of trouble with my bottom limb becoming overpowered over time. I was wondering, with a positive tiller a little over an 1/8", where would the arrow pass likely end up? I know it can vary sometimes bow to bow, depending on how much the limbs are actually working, and the length of the bow or stiff verses working handle, but in general? I was thinking about 3/4" to 1". I'm wanting to do 1". Now John Strunk in his yew bow build in TBB, puts his arrow pass about 1" above center, and recommends 1/4" positive tiller. 1/4" just looks off way too much to me, but than again maybe I am just a little OCD about what my bows look like at brace.
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Where do you measure your positive tiller on a selfbow? Do you measure it at brace or full draw or both? When I make bows I make the bottom limb slightly stiffer. With the unevenness of selfbows I don't know how you can measure positive tiller with any accuracy...especially when you are talking fractions of an inch. ???
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Where do you measure your positive tiller on a selfbow? Do you measure it at brace or full draw or both? When I make bows I make the bottom limb slightly stiffer. With the unevenness of selfbows I don't know how you can measure positive tiller with any accuracy...especially when you are talking fractions of an inch. ???
The way I do it is use a ruler and measure at brace height, by measuring from limb to string in the same spot on each limb. When I say that I used to measure 1/16th of and inch, I mean more of less, I really didn't try to get an exact measurement, just enough to qualify one limb as the stronger bottom limb, and one limb as the weaker top limb. Most the time I just eyeball it with a fist melee though, and lots of shooting to make sure. I don't have the right set up to measure positive tiller at full draw.
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Greetings tmns,pretty sure I'm not the only one that does't know what p/t is!a breif explanation would be excellent!th'xs. Bobbyjoe
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Positive tiller. Is when one limb is bending more than the other.
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I don't have a great answer for you except that I have followed John Strunk's process to make several yew longbows and I'm really happy with the results. I'm also interested in playing around with this concept though and I'm not sold on any one explanation yet.
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1/4" or so stiffer according to the eye at full draw. Jawge
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I aim for 1/8 positive bottom limb. Measuring just past fade each side, bottom limb should be even or up to 1/4" less on the ruler. I like 1/8th" Bow just feels more in time when shooting.
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I'm with Pat.
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It's really only positive tiller due to one limb bending more if the limbs are the same length or maybe if the lower limb is longer and the upper limb actually does also bend more.
A bow with an upper limb an inch longer and a slight positive looking tiller is only looking like that because the limb tip automatically registers further because it is longer, not because it is weaker.
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I aim for 1/8 positive bottom limb. Measuring just past fade each side, bottom limb should be even or up to 1/4" less on the ruler. I like 1/8th" Bow just feels more in time when shooting.
Thats about what I do. I am moving from about 1/16" to about 1/8" or so. Can I ask you where you place your arrow pass typically? Like, 1/2" above center, 1 1/2" above center, etc?
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Quote from ©Dean Torges:
4.When bow limbs are of equal length, to make both limbs synchronous, the bowyer MUST make the upper limb slightly weaker to match the longer lower limb so that they recoil at exactly the same speed.
5.If your bow has equal length limbs outside the handle, and there is a greater gap between the string and limb in one limb [positive tiller], you should turn it so that that limb is the upper limb and shoot it that way.
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I love + and - tiller threads! It reminds me of several dogs chasing their tails, while the rabbit slips away:)
Every bow is going to be slightly different in how they shoot. It's better to tiller for a smooth shooting bow than to say well I'm just going to put in a 1/8th positive tiller.
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I shoot for 1/8 but am happy with 3/16 ,didn't know it changed your arrow pass ??? built hundereds and didn't know that. :) If anything my bottom get weaker over time,not much usually if I am careful braceing it. :)
Pappy
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I guess when I start worrying about if my tiller matches the front profile, I might start thinking about positive and negative tiller ;) To be serious though, I've always thought about it like PatM commented.
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When I first brace a bow I get my braced profile worked out with a positive tiller for starters...but after that its all about what it looks like at full draw,and how well balanced it is in the hand when drawn...and whatever it ends up when I'm done,whether it be positive,zero,or even slightly negative...then that's what it should be for that one bow,cus each will be different.
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I shoot for 1/8 but am happy with 3/16 ,didn't know it changed your arrow pass ??? built hundereds and didn't know that. :) If anything my bottom get weaker over time,not much usually if I am careful braceing it. :)
Pappy
Mine get weaker too. That's why I decided to use a more positive tiller.
EDIT: And from what I understand, I thought the main reason for positive tiller was placement of the arrow pass, and how it makes the bow asymmetrical? Although IMO even with a bow that is perfectly symmetrical, with the arrow pass exactly center, the bottom limb is still under more stress most of the time due to most peoples drawing technique, (drawing to the chin, the cheek, the eye, etc). Which, with myself, seems to put more stress on the bottom limb. Even though I guess I can't really explain why effectively. With such bows, I draw across the chest, and don't really use an anchor.
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Well stated Chicken Hawk, I'm proud of ya son... :)
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If your limb is noticabley weakening that quickly its not a matter of positive or negative tiller. Soemthing else is wrong in the tiller or design. Yes, all bows if shot will weaken over time, but neither of us own bows that old.
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Thats very true Chris but I have found in most cases if they look bad at brace they will look bad at full draw,not always but most of the time especially in a low or non character bow. :) Bottom limbs may get a little more stress due to how a person shoots but from what I have seen it is mostly due to how they are braced. :) I make mostly symmetrical bows/anchor middle finger in the corner of my mouth and really don't have much problem with the tiller changing if I am using seasoned/dry wood. Shoot um for years with none to very little change. Maybe loose a little reflex but most times that is pretty even lose. :)
JonW "I guess when I start worrying about if my tiller matches the front profile"
;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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Funny you should say that Pappy. I was just talking with Roy about a bow needing to look good at brace (most often) to look good at full draw. I couldnt agree more!
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Checking positive tiller at brace is a static test. When you draw a bow in your hand it becomes non-static(for lack of a better phrase). Doesn't that change the effects of what we are trying to find out about the bow?
Chris Cade(mechslasher) a few years ago told me what he did with shorter, highly stressed recurve bows to keep the bottom limb from getting over stressed. He would just flip it over making the bottom limb the top limb. With a symetrical bow this is possible and I have used it on short bows and short recurves since with good results.
I'm not tchnical enough and don't want to be so technical that it becomes a hassle for me. I make wood bows and my goal is to be as simple with my bow building but still make viable hunting weight bows. I see all the positive and negative tiller as part of the "FG" mentality that I have been getting away from since I decided to make my own wood bows. In a FG lam bow where everything is a given even before the glue up, I can see where finding positive tiller can be ffective and even practical but with selfbows where no two sticks are the same and each piece of wood is different it seems like over kill and it is not practical for my bow building effort. I just want to build wood bows that shoot well and that is something I learned how to do over the years and after many bows have been built. I believe in the KISS rule when it comes to building wood bows! ;)
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I want it simple also Pat,but are you saying you don't even check the brace tiller or care if it is even/pos. or neg. at brace ? Flipping one over will surly work, But I don't shoot off my hand and hate makeing grips, rather make another bow. ;) ;D ;D :)
Pappy
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Yup pappy n pearly....that's why I said I get my braced profile looking good for starters..cus in a lot of cases the tiller will be good at full draw. Lately I've been going more simple with how I tiller. Rarely do I use a tree anymore,and its basically just an aid to measure draw weight when done. I will floor tiller it till I can low brace it,and my experience and "feel" of how heavy the bow is and each limb is compared to each other allows me to get pretty dang close to a dead nuts tiller...and I usually only have a lil scraping to give me a good looking braced profile,and only 5-10 pounds left at the most to take off..if that. Then its just a matter of slowly inching it out in my hand exercising it,and keeping track of my braced profile as a guide to any changes happening in my limbs. No bs'ing...that long yew bow was tillered out on the floor...and when I braced it the profile was dead nuts..and as I exercised it down it looked great,and by the time I got it to full draw it was perfect and at the exact weight I wanted..I didn't have to do any adjustments...no joke or overexaggeration. Now I don't get em dead nuts everytime,but there awfully close to having a finished tiller. Usually just some tweaking needs done. Tiller sticks n trees are overrated if you already know his to make wood bend well IMHO.
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If your limb is noticabley weakening that quickly its not a matter of positive or negative tiller. Soemthing else is wrong in the tiller or design. Yes, all bows if shot will weaken over time, but neither of us own bows that old.
I didn't say it was weakening quickly. This would be over the span of about a year of shooting or so. If you see something wrong with the tiller of my bows, your always welcome to point it out, ;).
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I dont think a bow should move at all in a year if its properly built and braced. I was thinking general use after 5,6 or even 7 years of shooting it. I didnt say your bows are tillered wrong, I wouldnt know if they where. A given bow, in general, shouldnt take on set that quickly if its tillered well, built well and braced correctley. The few bows I have made that "caved in" as I call it had design issues, and or tiller issues. Most have been fixed with reheating and retillering, as most of the worked wood is removed.
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I often wonder how the Injuns did it? :)
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Pappy, I do check the bow through each aspect of the building process but mostly by eyeballing. I do want my brace , from low brace through full brace to be within reason as I'm building a bow but I'm more concerned how the full draw profile looks in the end. I have made a bow or two with screwy brace profile because of the stave used that were right on at full draw. With a bow that has reflex or deflex in one limb or other abnormality we see with selfbows I don't see how measuring positive tiller at brace makes a difference. Eyeballing the overall look of the braced profile, even with squinted eyes to eliminate the details gives me a better "feel" for the condition of the building process. Does that make since? ???
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So what pats saying is his experienced eyeball can see the same thing a take measure will tell ya ;) couldn't agree more ;)
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Yes Pat I understand,guess my eyes just ant that good or I don't trust them. I can see right off at first brace if I am close to where I want to be but always measure anyway right out of the fads,depending on the side profile on measuring anywhere else. :) Roy they could used a string. ;) ;D ;D toomanyknots it also depends on how one shoots,Jimmy in our club draws long and hold for a good while and shoots a lot,I mean a lot, low grip and 3 under,he will wear out a selfbow in a season. It also depends a lot on the wood and if it is seasoned I believe. Some say it don't matter but I think it does. :)
Pappy
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I dont think a bow should move at all in a year if its properly built and braced. I was thinking general use after 5,6 or even 7 years of shooting it. I didnt say your bows are tillered wrong, I wouldnt know if they where. A given bow, in general, shouldnt take on set that quickly if its tillered well, built well and braced correctley. The few bows I have made that "caved in" as I call it had design issues, and or tiller issues. Most have been fixed with reheating and retillering, as most of the worked wood is removed.
Your taking what I'm saying out of context. When I said was I was having problems with my bottom limb weakening over time, I never said the bow was caving in or taking any noticeable set. I had been using about 1/16" lower of positive tiller on the bottom limb, and after a bit of time, the bottom limb was weakening, to where at brace height the string was even, or 1/16" lower on the upper side at most. Which undoubtedly was causing trouble with balance when the bow was drawn (unless flipped over like PatB mentioned) or lowering the arrow pass a bit to center. Which is of course no problem with a cord wrapped handle like I will typically use, or naked handle, like on a naked elb. But with a static arrow pass or shelf, it can become an issue. This is with the arrow being shot about 1/2" above center. Not tooting my own horn or anything but I do know what a good tiller looks like, and am quite aware of what an under built bow looks like, so I do know that was not the problem.
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So if a weakening limb isnt "caving in" or taking set, what is it called when the tiller changes by a 1/4"?
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F'ed up... ;D
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So if a weakening limb isnt "caving in" or taking set, what is it called when the tiller changes by a 1/4"?
Math never was your best subject, was it. ;)
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For the record Im not trying to do anything more than help you figure out why your limbs do this, its not normal and adding a more positive brace wont fix it for you. I can shut up and you can continue on with your quest if you want me to. Its no problem here.
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Why do we judge the tiller of bows on this site by looking at pics of them if the real tiller should be measured down to the 1/16th inch?
I never see anyone say that a bow's tiller looks good but make to measure that tiller before calling it good. Never.
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Just thought of a possibility TMK. Of the bows that you noticed the change in, where any of them osage with sapwodd left on? Maybe just maybe leaving sapwood on osage staves is the culprit. Maybe the weaker sapwood is giving way to a stronger belly of heartwood?
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For the record Im not trying to do anything more than help you figure out why your limbs do this, its not normal and adding a more positive brace wont fix it for you. I can shut up and you can continue on with your quest if you want me to. Its no problem here.
Oh come on, it was just a little joke. I said 1/16", you said 1/4", etc etc... ;) Anyway, Yes the bottom limb I guess is taking set here, you are correct, what I meant is that neither limb appeared to take any measurable string follow most of the time, (pretty sure anyway) and I guess set would be the wrong word to use here. (It's 5 hours before I usually get up at 4:00 PM , gimme a break yall, ;D) And yes, all bows that I had do this on me I have fixed by weakening the upper limb, effectively producing a more positive tiller. Which I am stating to think I should of done in the first place.
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Maybe some more exercise time as you tiller can work it out also. Maybe the bow isnt being tested enough prior to full draw and the changes register too late.
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I usually start with around 1/8" pos. on the top limb. Then I just shoot it and see what it feels like. If it needs more or less I can usaully feel it and see it in the way my arrows are flying. I usually end up around 1/4" pos. on top for shooting split finger. Shelf is about 1-1/4" above center. I don't care what it looks like.If it don't shoot good, it's just fancy fire wood. :)
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You are correct steve b. that's just the way I do it,not saying everyone should.
Lord know I believe their are many way to skin a cat,just good conversation.If you want to do it all by eye then by all means do it. :) I will keep my ruler. ;) :)
even a bad tillered bow will hit the same make everytime if it is pointed and held the same using the same arrow. :) enough for me,don't know why I get into the conversations. I need to go to work. ;) ;D
Pappy
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Cause they are fun conversations, Pappy. Like a dog chasen his tail:)
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Just thought of a possibility TMK. Of the bows that you noticed the change in, where any of them osage with sapwodd left on? Maybe just maybe leaving sapwood on osage staves is the culprit. Maybe the weaker sapwood is giving way to a stronger belly of heartwood?
No, mostly hackberry and red oak. Plenty of people make sapwood backed osage bows. Also that doesn't make any sense why one limb would be stronger than the other? I think it a more likely conclusion that I have not been allowing enough positive tiller with only 1/16" of an inch, and seeing as most people use a good amount more, from an 1/8" of an inch to 1/4", I have assumed this to be the case. As well as when put in practice for me, it seems to hold true. If there were any tiller or design problems with the couple bows I have had this problem with like you have proposed, I would of taken that all into account. Although I fail to see why positive tiller and balance are not parts of a bows design? Either, thank you for your advice.
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Ballance is important. I just don't use a measuring tool to measure the tiller. There are other things to think about...how you grip the handle and whether you shoot split fingers or 3 under.
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Now your learning toomany.. At least 1/8th to start.
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Ballance is important. I just don't use a measuring tool to measure the tiller. There are other things to think about...how you grip the handle and whether you shoot split fingers or 3 under.
I will say I grip the bow alot different than most people. At least I know that now. The reason I think that is, is that I place the arrow on the right side of the bow, instead of the left. Recently I have been trying to shoot on the left, and it seems that I need to apply a totally different group of muscles to grip the bow. As funny as something so small would effect you like that. When I tried to start shooting with the arrow on the left side, I noticed that I used mostly my fore finger, middle finger, and thumb "area", or the upper part of my hand more. When I shoot normally with the arrow on the right side, I use mostly the center or lower area of my hand more. Is this normal? As I really don't know what gripping the bow should be like, as I have just kinda learned as I go, ;D. I do use a split finger (one on top, two below) and as I understand it, different ways to grip the string, "split finger, 3 under", require different ways to grip the bow? I probably should pay more attention when these things get brought up, ;D.
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Now your learning toomany.. At least 1/8th to start.
;D
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"No, mostly hackberry and red oak."
Well there's your problem...quit using that junk wood ;) :laugh: :laugh:
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TMK, when you use your right hand to draw your fingers open to the left and with the arrow on the left the paradox is smoother because the initial movement of the arrow when released goes to the left. If you use a thumb ring then your thumb opens to the right and shooting from the right side is preferred. I'm not saying you are wrong in the way you shoot but it is out of the ordinary. For you to change now would be like starting from scratch. If you use a pinch relase like some Native Americans use either side would work.
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Lot of good thoughts and ideas here .... read this topic with great interest. Here mine:
The amount of positiv tiller depends on the length of the bow, so ¼ is ok for a 60" bow. For a shorty I would use ⅛. This is for me the rule given a clean stave without any whiggles. As others already said, if in the bow are some kinks etc. it can be right to choose even an negative tiller (for example here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35613.0.html?PHPSESSID=ojscmbeir9rl5rm6ccho63ej64 ).
I think both tips should travel with a balanced speed from f/d to brace. If it doesn't, the bow will still shoot. You can even shoot a bow with lower limb completely stiff. But you will loose cast, because of intern vibrations, noise etc.
Since I make very thin strings (changed from B50 to 452 X) I proove my bows by zipping on the string (while braced of course). I'm carefully listening to the sound. If I get a clear long tone, I think both limbs are matching. Having this tested on many bows, I really believe in this.
again, very good discussion
Simon
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Toomanyknots, I think I have this fuggered all out now.
You have too many knots. ;D
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Toomanyknots, I think I have this fuggered all out now.
You have too many knots. ;D
lol 8)
TMK, when you use your right hand to draw your fingers open to the left and with the arrow on the left the paradox is smoother because the initial movement of the arrow when released goes to the left. If you use a thumb ring then your thumb opens to the right and shooting from the right side is preferred. I'm not saying you are wrong in the way you shoot but it is out of the ordinary. For you to change now would be like starting from scratch. If you use a pinch relase like some Native Americans use either side would work.
Oh I know I sure ain't normal. No debating that. :) I'd like to learn to shoot with the arrow on the left side though. I have been practicing, but I swear it's a whole different group of muscles for me to just switch the arrow to the other side. I can draw 80# @ 28" fairly easily, but the other day trying to draw a 60# bow to even 26" with the arrow on the left side was proving impossible for me, haha.
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Do you suppose pulling a right handed bow the way you do adds excess torque to the bottom limb? Just a guess.
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Do you suppose pulling a right handed bow the way you do adds excess torque to the bottom limb? Just a guess.
Maybe.
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I generally use a 1/8 to 1/4 inch positive tiller and I usually make my limbs asymetrical (top 2" longer than bottom). That said, I've made bows with symetrical limbs and no positive tiller and frankly I can't tell the difference when I use them - they all seem to shot fine for me.
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I can't see how shooting the arrow off the left side of the bow is going to make you use other muscles. What you are doing now is ass backwards, so why not put a serious effort into shooting off the correct side of the bow? Sure it will feel awkward for a while but you will get accustomed to it rather quickly.
And for $99.00/hr, I will come out there and coach ya through it:)
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Yeah this is all well and good assuming your bow is straight in the first place!
I never measure it, although I do look for symmetry of the lower limb or maybe a tad stiffer.
I once had the esteemed Robert Hardy (who wrote 'Longbow') tell me one of my longbows was built upside down >:(
Maybe I should have bit my tongue, but I popped off the string and showed him the natural deflex in the lower limb :).
I'm not really sure if one limb can really recover much faster than the other, as they are not separate limbs... they join in the middle and the ends are joined by the string ! (Yes really... you've never noticed?)
One limb tip won't stop moving until the string stops it right?
If that tip has stopped, then that end of the string has stopped...right?
If one end of the string has stopped then the other end has also stopped... right?
... and it that string end has stopped the limb tip has stopped too!
So.... both tips stop simultaneously... ;D
Mind, that's not to say the bow hasn't tilted during that time >:(... but, by then the point of the arrow, with it's nice point stuffed full of inertia is alread on it's way towards the target, and the back of the arrow may waggle a little as it catches up (hey wait for me!).
Does it really matter? How many angels can dance on the point of an arrow as it spins towards the target?
Del
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I generally use a 1/8 to 1/4 inch positive tiller and I usually make my limbs asymetrical (top 2" longer than bottom). That said, I've made bows with symetrical limbs and no positive tiller and frankly I can't tell the difference when I use them - they all seem to shot fine for me.
Thanks Gordon. For me, if I don't make sure to at least have a stronger bottom limb, than it will feel like my drawing arm is pulling up when I draw, and as a result, my arrows will fly down/south of the target.
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I can't see how shooting the arrow off the left side of the bow is going to make you use other muscles. What you are doing now is ass backwards, so why not put a serious effort into shooting off the correct side of the bow? Sure it will feel awkward for a while but you will get accustomed to it rather quickly.
And for $99.00/hr, I will come out there and coach ya through it:)
...maybe the problem is I don't have any muscles to begin with... Seems more likely. :)
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What Del said..
I think? :laugh:
TMK, can't never tried:)
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Yeah this is all well and good assuming your bow is straight in the first place!
I never measure it, although I do look for symmetry of the lower limb a tad stiffer.
I once had the esteemed Robert Hardy (who wrote Longbow) tell me one of my longbows was built upside down >:(
Maybe I should have bit my tongue, but I popped off the string and showed him the natural deflex in the lower limb :).
Yeah, that il do it, and thats a very good point, that I think Simson was touching on as well. If you start out with a stave, that has a deflexed limb and a straight or reflexed limb, the deflexed limb will 99 percent of the time come out stronger, as it is moving less. Some bows can have a negative tiller, like simson pointed out, but still draw balanced and work balanced.
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Great discusion, with many valid points,
Dell I have felt the same about the limbs hitting home at the same time,IE (Only when string is taunt.) But I think it can greatly affect how the stored energy is absorbed back into the limbs when that happens. Braced profile has much to do with this as well. When those strings hit taunt the wave of energy ripples through the bow and can be absorbed in the balanced middle as each limb cancels the other or it can travel past that point depending on timing. I have watched some slow motion effects and it is amazing to see what the bow goes threw when the string comes tight. This was my point earlier about timing and performance but I didn't want to muddy the water with hand shock theories and other factors
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Keenan that's why I use that old fashion B-50 so it let's the bow relax slowly like a shock absorber, compared to the high tech strings that stop the limbs like they just hit a brick wall. The Indians knew this also, that's why they didn't use white man fastem flight:)
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Keenan that's why I use that old fashion B-50 so it let's the bow relax slowly like a shock absorber, compared to the high tech strings that stop the limbs like they just hit a brick wall. The Indians knew this also, that's why they didn't use white man fastem flight:)
Time for a nap old timer.......sssshhhh he is sleeping.
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Think ya double quoted there son :)
Think ya double quoted there son :)
Think ya double quoted there son :)
Think ya double quoted there son :)
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Now Roy would that be calling the kettle black! >:D
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Great discusion, with many valid points,
Dell I have felt the same about the limbs hitting home at the same time,IE (Only when string is taunt.) But I think it can greatly affect how the stored energy is absorbed back into the limbs when that happens. Braced profile has much to do with this as well. When those strings hit taunt the wave of energy ripples through the bow and can be absorbed in the balanced middle as each limb cancels the other or it can travel past that point depending on timing. I have watched some slow motion effects and it is amazing to see what the bow goes threw when the string comes tight. This was my point earlier about timing and performance but I didn't want to muddy the water with hand shock theories and other factors
You don't have a link to the slo mo video do you, that would be cool.
Del
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I've had bows I give 1/8th inch positive tiller then as it's shot in the positive increases.Which tells me maybe TMK like PD said may be I did'nt work it on the tree enough before shooting it in.No handshock,noiseless release,hitting where I'm looking,maintaining braced profile you started with all tells me my bow is in the right tiller even if it's even tillered or whatever to each bow.
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Del this is not the one I was thinking of but still shows some of the vibrations effects in the bow. And a few others on archers pardox that are cool. I'll keep looking to see if I can find the riight one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX8z1BlnEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7203B8xbAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWrcpzuAp8
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Think ya double quoted there son :)
Think ya double quoted there son :)
Think ya double quoted there son :)
Now Mr. Global Moderator, I sense a special edit function on your end. LOL
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:o :o :o :o >:D What u talkin bout boy! LOL ;D
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BOY?
How about I add your name to the thumpen list? LOL
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Tmk maybe reincarnated Japanese.
Del this has some slow mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrOIQRnKcnc
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I'm sure you know a lot of different things have to do with how a bow keeps it's tiller.Consistency in anchor point maybe.The way a bow is strung.The hand placement pressure spot on the bows of mine is pretty dead center with the arrow pass 1and1/2" to 1and3/4" above center.Even length limbs.Made em 1and1/2" longer on top and don't notice any difference like Gordon.Got a dogwood 2" longer on top to tiller soon but don't think it'll be different either.I'll tiller that bow evenly.As time goes and more bows made 1/8" and no more positive tiller feels and looks good to me.
That last one keenan was a good one to see exactly what an arrow goes through.He must of progressively shot weaker and weaker spined arrows to have that one explode on him.
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Oh storing them in a stable envirornment means everything too.
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I thought it was interesting that the Yumi gripped their bows below the center to avoid the shock of the shot being that that shock took place in the center of the bow.
Also the grip. Art Butner showed me that trick a few years ago. He would bring his thumb tip and second finger tip together(like gesturing "OK") as his grip and let the weight of the drawn bow rest against the palm of his hand. When shot the bow would rotate(counter clockwise for right handed shooting)allowing less paradox for the arrow so different spined arrows could be shot from the same bow or on a bow with the string laying to the opposite side from the arrow.
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I try to have about 1/8" more, measured from the end of the dip to the string on the upper limb, but I'm happy with close. I'm more concerned with tiller at full draw myself. It usually falls into place when you use a tillering gizmo.
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Well, anyway, ask 3 experienced bowyers and you'll get 6 different answers. In the final analysis, the best of tiller is how the bow shoots. Take your tape measure and put it back in your toolbox. I take it outside and make my mind go blank (easy to do). I see how the handle pressure is and forget about hitting the target (S.O.P). Is it even or does the top or bottom have different pressures? Pressure should be even. Whether the pos. tiller is an 1/8", 1/4" or 12" don't mean nuthin' (bad grammar intended). How the bow shoots is the ticket. Jawge
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Good post Ole Boy:)