Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dictionary on January 06, 2013, 05:31:56 pm
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Just curious. This is primitive archer but i doubt many here have tried to make one without a rope/pulley. This is primitive archer but many havent taken the stone tool approach. Not everyone really can though make efficient tools from stone or have the access to it, including me. But im sure there are ways to tiller efficiently without using ropes/pulleys,mirrors,tillering sticks, and all the other gizmos we've thought up.
If you do so, share your method please.
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There are and I have. I'm sure the ancients assessed tiller together with another person to show hight spots, etc. One other way is watch your shadow. Still another way is gently draw the stave over your head and watch the limbs bending.:) Jawge
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Me and Cesar (legionnaire archery)both just use mirrors or shadows. I havn't taken the time to build a pulley system, I don't really find it that necessary, I basically just floor tiller til it's safely brace-able then use a mirror til it gets to full draw. I don't really think it makes a difference as long as you never overstress the wood.
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I think its a great question Dictionary.
seems what most tools evolve from is a desire to make something easier, less risky, less time consuming.
One could tiller a bow over a tree limb or a protruding knot in a tree,but our ancestors made bows so often they "knew" the wood
and took off wood in such increments they had more time to check their progress.
tillering with all kinds of fancy props wasn't as necessary as it is to us, but i'm sure tillering made more successful bows!
Steel axes were sometimes traded and then promptly scrape/sawed painstakingly in half to make wedges.
a stone axe worked fine for someone growing up with that lifestyle....but a steel wedge could be an anvil a scraper,all kinds of things.
well thats my schpeel anyway!
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I use many methods at once. For starters, I never pull a bow back until the tiller at brace is perfect. As long as its perfect at brace, the tiller wont be far off at all at draw. I also use shadows. I have my wife pull the bow while I look on. I will also lay the bow against the wall at brace, and measure the distance from the wall to each tip. The tip that is closest is the strongest limb. Other than that, Mirrors, cameras, or hang it from a tree by the handle and dangle a weight from the string. I have dont that, but that causes allot of set.
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I've build lots of bows without a tiller stick. Mirror and a little help from my wife is sometimes good enough. But tillering is important when you wish a 100 % result. It's a kind of art. :-)
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I somewhat prefer to use a mirror anymore over a tillering tree. Lately I have used a mirror for all tillering, and only used my tillering tree for measuring draw weight. I think I can be easier on the wood using a mirror instead of a tree which locks the bow at a specific draw length, and then I have to back up to look at it, and then go get it off the tree, which all takes time. I don't have a pulley set up, but I plan to in the future.
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Made all my first ones without a tree. Pulled them over my knee (short bows) and had a buddy draw them while I assessed the bend. I still only use the tiller tree for about 15-16 inches of draw. After that it's photos.
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When sun high and tree not shake her leaves in wind, Cat sees bow in water of still pond.
Ok my pants have just ignited ::)
Never used one when I was a kid, don't think I used one on my 'one hour bow'.
Now I carve out the wood with a beaver tied to a stick... :o
Del (baaaad kitty)
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what do you guys think of this method? This guy makes some pretty nice bows.
And if you follow the whole build along, you'll see he uses this method to full draw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH5HZwe9j2A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH5HZwe9j2A)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjbIPv_ssWk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjbIPv_ssWk)
Really i can see using someone else to draw it for you to be the easiest of methods when you're with other people. But for those who wish to go out and make a bow on their own utilizing a small amount of tools in the woods and tillering on their own by eye and feel this guy offers a very good method along with paying attention to evening out the braced profile and checking floor tiller, it can be done consistently well i believe.
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Just curious. This is primitive archer but i doubt many here have tried to make one without a rope/pulley. This is primitive archer but many havent taken the stone tool approach. Not everyone really can though make efficient tools from stone or have the access to it, including me. But im sure there are ways to tiller efficiently without using ropes/pulleys,mirrors,tillering sticks, and all the other gizmos we've thought up.
If you do so, share your method please.
Why not just put the string on, put your foot on the handle and gently pull back, should give you a rough idea how things are progressing.. ;) done many times myself.
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I usually don't use a tillering tree. In fact i almost never use a long string to begin tillering. I just floor bend until it looks as even as possible and then string it. It's also effective to look at the bow's shadow or pull in front of a mirror or other reflective things.
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I don't have a pulley set up, I have a stick that I use up to 22-23", I measure the brace both sides of the handle/fades and scrape and flex till it's even, then use my shadow, Bub
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like already noted i use my knee ,measure tip height @ brace,assess brace closely marking increments with a pencil every 6" or so " and also closely monitoring the set or loss of reflex in opposing limbs.sighting down the limb to observe the deformation and try to counter balance!
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I use a mirror too but Dictionary is asking for ancient methods. :) Jawge
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I use a mirror too but Dictionary is asking for ancient methods. :) Jawge
sadly enough we weren't here to see them use the ancient methods.
It seems sighting down the limbs while pushing on the string, floor tillering, and pulling on the bow on the ground while your foot is planted on the handle to check bend evenness is about as ancient as it goes.
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I'm kind of a minimalist, that and I haven't gotten around to making a tillering tree so I don't use one. :)
I use a mirror or any reflection I can get. Short of that just try to lean over and see the tiller as well as you can while bending it. ;) I normally just go from floor tillering to loose string tillering. Its usually pretty obvious if there's some area I need to work on.
Thickness checking often can also help with staves on the clean side.
And once I get a taught string and a low brace I can back up a bit and really see what I need to work on.
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I don't see why our ancestors wouldn't of used a tiller tree, possibly made out of an actual tree with a broken limb at man height, with notches cut out to accompany the string at various draws. The only technology needed is that of stone tools, to saw the notches on the tree. If anything I would think our ancestors would have been resourceful and clever, and would of had many ways and tricks to tiller bows though. Bcgrover does make very nice bows, with spot on tillers, using his method btw. He posts over on paleoplanet now and then.
EDIT: On second thought though, many of our ancestors were nomads, and most likely would of had better methods for making bows than solely using trees, such as Bcgrovers method.
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I don't see why our ancestors wouldn't of used a tiller tree, possibly made out of an actual tree with a broken limb at man height, with notches cut out to accompany the string at various draws. The only technology need is that of stone tools, to saw the notches on the tree. If anything I would think our ancestors would have been resourceful and clever, and would of had many ways and tricks to tiller bows though. Bcgrover does make very nice bows, with spot of tillers, using his method btw. He posts over on paleoplanet now and then.
EDIT: On second thought though, many of our ancestors were nomads, and most likely would of had better methods for making bows than solely using trees, such as Bcgrovers method.
Im sure there would be SOMETHING recorded about their devices used to tiller them IF THEY USED THEM. Im sure a few souls may have experimented with cutting notches in a tree and all that but if they were able to tiller without them, why bother making them?
I just find it strange many here cannot tillering without one. As soon as the wood gets bending...."time to put it on the block and attach the s hook and get that rope and pulley working". Nothing wrong with that thinking, but its just a thought.
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I either put my string on the Vice handle And Work the bow Watching the bend or do the same thing by standing on the string... although this weekend I finally got around to build a tree time will tell if that will replace my method on straight wood... definitely need to do the character staves by hand though ;)
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@ Dictionary...
"I just find it strange many here cannot tillering without one."
I think you are jumping to conclusions. Just because someone uses a tillering tree it doesn't mean they 'cannot' without one.
I used a ladder to get up my Cherry tree to lop it, but I could have climbed it without one if I'd wanted.
Del
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A straight limb bow is easily tillered by feel and by the braced profile of the bow, of course experience helps here
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Del. ;) ;D ;D ;D thats good. I use both most of the time,stick till I get it braced and tree out to 24 or so and then by feel or looks,then the tree again to measure final weight at the draw length I want. I see no reason not to use one. :) I have used the mirror but they always get broke in my shop and still use the friend method and that works pretty good if your friend know what they are looking at. ;) ;D Most of mine do. :)
Pappy
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@ Dictionary...
"I just find it strange many here cannot tillering without one."
I think you are jumping to conclusions. Just because someone uses a tillering tree it doesn't mean they 'cannot' without one.
I used a ladder to get up my Cherry tree to lop it, but I could have climbed it without one if I'd wanted.
Del
;) Well played.
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The best way I've found to filler without a tree or a filler stick is to hold the bow in my right hand with the back of the bow against my cheek at the handle. I push the string away from my face with my left hand and sight down the limb. I think you see stiff spot much better that way. Yiu just need to remember what it looked like when you flip the limbs and check the other one to keep them even.
I just built for bows that way at my inlaws because I have no filler tree here.
Mark
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I've been wondering about the old English bowyers back during ELB's "golden age." Did the english bowyers medieval and more recent use any kind of tiller system?
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Well come on Del, I'm waitin' ;)
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Well come on Del, I'm waitin' ;)
I have no idea how medieval bowyers did it, they had rope, their workshop probably was timber framed with convenient trenails protruding to hang bows on.
Maybe there is no record, because they simply didn't consider it a tool... it's just a bit of rope.
I'd guess they probably didn't bother with weights, or if they did, it wasn't a calibrated weight in the modern sense. Possibly just a big stone and some marks made on a beam.
I use string when marking out a bow, but if I did an inventory of my workshop I wouldn't include string, and I won't be mentioning it in my will!
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
Making bows for the war effort could easily have been 'making bows by numbers', get 'em up to floor tiller and move 'em out for the next guy to trim 'em up and put on nocks... dunno, I don't think anyone does. I've read theories which didn't stand up to close examination, so I think it's better to confine ourselves to facts rather than conjecture.
But... if we are allowed to dream, then maybe they had buxom wenches helping them... yeah, that works for me :)
Can I quit and have my dinner now? ;)
Del
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Oh Lord... And que the buxom wenches, hard wood, bent wood, wood with reflex, and my chopping hand is stronger than the other jokes.... Or am I just sick?
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Maybe the ancients used a straight branch with a scorch limb shoulder?primitive tillering gizmo!sorry eric!lol!
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Well lets see know out of the forty some years I have been making bows, I only began to try the Tillering tree and tillering stick about 15 years ago so I suppose I can do without if you want me to !
I tried to put a mirror in the bathroom 35 yrs ago put broke several so I guess I may never know if I can do one in a mirror or not !
I like doing bows with only stone but it is hard to come by good stones so I use my hatchet o well maybe one day you will find someone that lives up to your expectations or maybe not !
Till then I recon you will have to settle for the rest of us old codgers !
And Dell it wood be heap many squalls on this side of big water !
Have fun !!
Guy
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old codgers ;D