Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: kevinsmith5 on December 03, 2012, 07:58:25 pm
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So far when i have backed a bow with linen I have applied the backing with Titebond 3 and been fairly happy with the results. But having recently had a near failure (a visible raised splinter under the backing) in my favorite Mollie I'm wondering if antougher adhesive is not a better option. I live in a coastal area where epoxies intended for use on all wooden boats are everywhere. I'm wondering if using West System G/Flex epoxy to apply the linen might not make a stronger back? Its rated as being waterproof and semi flexible.
Thoughts?
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I'am using silk. If you are having probs with serious lifting then maybe more tillering would be the ticket.
Or take off what you have and use the old stand by "Wood" best backing thar is.... ;)
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isn't linen and epoxie basically f!$#%glass, :-\, Bub
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Linen/ raw flax glues perfectly with Epoxy. There are modern bicycle frames that are a carbon/flax mixture.
Saying that TB or any other "modern" glue is somehow more traditional or primitive is unreasonable. Epoxy has been around much longer than TB 3.
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I like the way linen LOOKS. I'm also mostly making bows on the extreme cheap, my Mollie was literally made from a scrap that the hardwood lot had on their trash pile, my hickory is from flooring boards, and my Ipe is decking. I know my materials aren't the best, so I'm looking for insurance.
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Linen/ raw flax glues perfectly with Epoxy. There are modern bicycle frames that are a carbon/flax mixture.
Saying that TB or any other "modern" glue is somehow more traditional or primitive is unreasonable. Epoxy has been around much longer than TB 3.
i wasn't implying that it was more modern or not Pat but that when you make fglass you use cloth and an epoxie rezin, tho i think white glue has been around longer than epoxie, Bub
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They are both modern and only about 20 years apart in "discovery". I certainly wouldn't discount epoxy just because it happens to be one way of binding glass etc together in modern bows.
It's a better structural adhesive in the context of making a matrix.
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Whoah, lets get back on track here.If you are having splinters raise on the back, there is an underlying problem . Backings are an extra measure of security, not a magic cure-all. if your grain is really violated in a high stress area a backing is a bandaid solution. Don't get me wrong , it can save a bow that would otherwise be firewood, but what you are doing with any backing is moving the area of stress (tension) And or replacing it with a more elastic material to compensate for the characteristics of the material being used. The other reason for backing ,would be to protect a soft wood from damage. my guess would be that the bow is being overdrawn ,the weight is too high for the material being used ,grain violation , etc.,etc.take your pick.You could try epoxy but if you don't figure out why it's happening ,you could end up with a lot more time consuming , hazard to your health ,messy ,smelly,expensive failure. What are the stats of your bow ,and do you have any pics? I put a linnen back on a kids bow of HHB for my son and it can bend beyond what you would think possible, but I'm sure if you pull it back far enough, it WILL fail.
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How about sinew and hide glue?
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Some of you are really taking this and running with it....I had one bow that showed signs of a splinter after hundreds and hundreds if shots, not one bow after another failing. I'm just looking to increase the security and protection of the linen and asking if the epoxy will help. It looks like the answer is yes.
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For the purist it is close to glass, on the other hand both these (epoxy and silk, or linen) are exceptable on primitive equipment. Epoxy is used in handle splices, Massey finishes...so forth. Combining the 2 is not in my opinion over the line....adding glass would be. I do hear ya Bubba it IS very close.
VMB
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I have found that epoxy makes any fabric brittle. But I havent tried many different epoxies.. JMO
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My experience is that the faster an epoxy sets, the more brittle it will be. Most of what you find at the big stores in the way of epoxy doesn't make a very good backing adhesive because it sets in 5min.
My only experience with linen was with TB2. It was OK, but I far prefer sinew to linen and haven't used it since.
George
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G/Flex has a working time of 45 minutes and takes hours to set.
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I will hafta try some of that, thanks
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What about rawhide n titebond or hide glue...way cheaper than using west system epoxy,cus that stuff is kinda pricey and you mentioned doing this on the cheap. And rawhides some dang good protection,and easy to do.
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A 16 oz set is $20 here. Remember guys, I live in a coastal area full of wooden boats. Its harder to find rawhjde around here than G/Flex.
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G Flex itself isn't actually a good choice since it doesn't really wet out fabric well. The 105 resin is best for that. You can mix and match with West though. Adding a touch of G flex to a 105 mix gives it a bit more flexibility.
I use a lot of these products to glue natural fibers to bamboo for bikes as well as bows. Abetter all in one product is the West 610 cartridge. It is thicker and more flexible but it thins as you work it so you can aggressively wet out material with it.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/CIMG4908.jpg)
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PatM, you've used it on a bow? What was your mix ratio?
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I use Titebond 2 for backings. Only prob I'm having is with silk. I put some down today and I thought I got all the creases out. I look at it tonite and I have creases again..!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:(
How do you prevent creases.....?
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No, I have just used the 610 or 105 separately although using the mix of 105/G Flex in other applications comes out about the same as the 610. It's a very versatile system.
I never get too worried about the ratio of G flex I'm adding to a 105 mix. I usually mix up a single pump from the 105 system and add about a teaspoon total of G flex to that mix. You mix them separately first and then blend.You can find the actual projected changes to the mix on the West site if you choose to go that route.
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Why tite bond 2? 3 is water proof.
When I put down light weight linen I soak it in water first, ring it out, thin set the glue, stretch the linen over, clamp it in the middle and stretch it to the ends then clamp at the ends. Go back over it with a thin coat of glue. 45 minutes later I coat it again.
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Why tite bond 2? 3 is water proof.
When I put down light weight linen I soak it in water first, ring it out, thin set the glue, stretch the linen over, clamp it in the middle and stretch it to the ends then clamp at the ends. Go back over it with a thin coat of glue. 45 minutes later I coat it again.
Ummmmm TB2 seems to do the trick. I glued a latch on my gate outside with TB2 it gets soaked continually and it's still set. On Bow's well I will seal them with polyurethane, and do not have any intentions to stand outside in the rain. I think TB2 sets quicker. Having said that I would imagine if the item was actually immersed in water, would be the real test, something like a boat.
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I've got a piece of linen curing on a pine furring strip under some G/Flex now. We'll see how that does.
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for the record i dont have a problem useing epoxy, i've used it myself, not trying to start a pi$$n match or nothin' ::), now i'm out of this one, BUb
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A 16 oz set is $20 here. Remember guys, I live in a coastal area full of wooden boats. Its harder to find rawhjde around here than G/Flex.
This just doesn't make much sense to me,but whatever floats your boat :laugh:
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Wow!! :o :o I've used linen and epoxy. It works great. I have had zero problems with any material and epoxy. Go for it. If it works for you, then there's nothin wrong with it.
Tattoo Dave
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I used smooth on once for kicks with 12 ply linen on a questionable back of a mulberry.Figured out three strands of 12 ply linen gave me 1 extra pound of draw weight.I used 28 strands and the bow gained 8 pounds.The smooth on was put on the depth of the linen string and it definitely is waterproof.The smooth on cracked across where the limb worked but it held up great.Next time I will use raw flax and either hide glue or smooth on.The raw flax should'nt take as much set as string or fabric.Working with the raw flax I got is like working with angel hair and getting everything in a nice straight line on the back can be tedious.Smooth on gives you way more time in application than hide glue but hide glue to me has it's own endearing qualitys to it like.
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Well that turned out fairly well. I think I over did the depth of the epoxy I laid over top of the linen, but I can actually now bend the 14" piece of pine to 4" off center line at each end without breaking it (that's as far as I went).