Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: LEGIONNAIRE on November 09, 2012, 08:00:58 pm
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I have been thinking about the different types of woods and their uses. We generally see that hickory is used to make all kinds of bows from short to long. We also know its pretty dense to compared to yew. So from this thought came a question to my mind that I wish I could test with a chronograph. Lets say we have 2 bows like cherokee longbows, that have same length, weight and draw. One made of Ipe one of yew. We know ipe is a very dense wood while yew is a not so dense wood. Lets say the ipe bow has no string follow at all, but the yew bow has .75 inch of sting follow, in terms of speed which one will shoot faster? we all know that weight on the tips has an effect , but to what extent does string follow also affect the speed as would density?
I know alot will say they would go with the yew bow, i would too, but I would like to focus on speed of the arrow, wight and string follow. Im not sure if this is in any of the TBBS, im sure it might be if so let me know which one so I can re read. Thanks guys I look forward to your input.
Cesar
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Cesar, with all things equal the yew bow will shoot fastest because of less physical weight. If each bows are built to maximize its own properties the ipe might be the fastest.
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There are a lot of variables involved but yew would ultimately win out.
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So much for the mass principle...Making two different woods into the relatively inefficient Cherokee long bow doesn't make sense from a design standpoint.
The yew would likely shoot faster since .75 string follow is minimal but neither would shoot to their full [potential so why handicap your materials to prove an obscure point?
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My vote goes to the bow made of ipe.
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Yep, I totally agree with Gordon. If both bows dimensions are adjusted so that mass is the same, the bow with the least string follow should edge out the bow with the most string follow. The density of the two different woods is irrelevant if and I emphasis IF the bows are designed and built according to mass. Josh
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Yep, I totally agree with Gordon. If both bows dimensions are adjusted so that mass is the same, the bow with the least string follow should edge out the bow with the most string follow. The density of the two different woods is irrelevant if and I emphasis IF the bows are designed and built according to mass. Josh
Even if designed and built to mass wouldnt the tips on the ipe still be heavier than the yew tips. There by making the yew faster?
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There are so many variables as to make the question un-answerable.
Because the woods are different, the cross section of the two bows would be different to achieve the same draw weight.
Because of that you can't say which will be heavier.
Doesn'tthe mass principal imply they will end up at about the same mass if the length, draw and basic design is the same?
You might as well ask if we prefer blondes or brunettes >:D
Del
(Brunettes)
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Yep, I totally agree with Gordon. If both bows dimensions are adjusted so that mass is the same, the bow with the least string follow should edge out the bow with the most string follow. The density of the two different woods is irrelevant if and I emphasis IF the bows are designed and built according to mass. Josh
Sorry to pick on ya josh...lol
I'm with del...there's to many variables to really answer that question without a doubt.
Yes josh in simple terms that is true to some extent. But I've seen n tested bows of same weight n material and the bow that was fastest had the most follow and all were within reason mass wise. Design alone can make that string follow bow faster even if at proper mass. Also what if the ipe started out with 4" of reflex but was poorly tillered and ended up straight,and the yew started out with 1/4" of follow and ended up with the 3/4" of follow. I'd say the yew is gonna win because its belly wood is much fresher and not mishandled and crushed like the ipe was. Also some pieces of wood are "faster" than others even within there own species. By fast I mean a wood that loses very little of it's natural position and recovers quickly after unbracing. There's just too many "what ifs".
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you would have to be sure you have maximised the potential of both bows by adjusting design to suit the materials. then have the same mass and draw weight for each bow, which wouldnt be easy with just 2 bows and there is so much variation in wood quality, especially with yew. ...so good luck with your experiment anyway, I'm sure you'll learn something to your advantage by trying this. You can only try!!!
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I read this last night and waited till this morning to answer, though it would have been the same. Not enough information to answer with any certainty. The Yew bow will be lighter, and as PatM said, .75" string follow is negligible, maybe even better than the straight Ipe as Blackhawk indicated. So the Yew being faster would be my answer if I had to give one. It seems to me you are asking two unrelated questions. 1. Does string follow effect cast. 2. Does wood density effect cast. The others have already said regarding mass, that you would design both bows for best possible performance, meaning the designs would be different for each....pretty close to the same cast string follow not withstanding.
Del(Brunettes)
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There are so many variables as to make the question un-answerable.
Because the woods are different, the cross section of the two bows would be different to achieve the same draw weight.
Because of that you can't say which will be heavier.
Doesn'tthe mass principal imply they will end up at about the same mass if the length, draw and basic design is the same?
You might as well ask if we prefer blondes or brunettes >:D
Del
(Brunettes)
I agree with Del... brunettes ;)
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The yew bow would be lighter and probably more elastic than the same amount of ipe. I don't know ipe's elasticity for sure. Jawge
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My understanding of the mass principal is that it takes less wood to make a bow if it's dense to (Osage) get the same draw weight bow of a lighter wood (walnut). The density of the Osage is compensated for by the reduced Physical dimension needed to carry the stress. Or am I missing something? I've never built according to the mass principal but have weighed a couple after the fact and keep coming in a couple or three ounces under the projected weight .The bows work good so I just chocked it up to it being a generalised formula to get you started with wiggle room to play.
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I think everyone is making this too complex and speculative. The original post says Cherokee longbow so immediately assume that no fancy tweaking of width profile is being done. The bows need to be pictured as two slats of wood.
If they are actually following the same width profile to prove something then only the thickness will vary to hit the weight. They will come in virtually identical with the Ipe having to be thinner to hit the weight.
Forget about reflex and string follow etc and thing of two board bows for a second.
The point is to make the two raw bows as alike as possible.
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All other things being equal, the ipe bow should store slightly more energy than the yew bow with string follow. Some have suggested that the ipe tips will be heavier, but I don't know why that has to be. Because the ipe is more dense, the tips can have a lower volume than the yew.
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Cool topic to bring up. I have made a bunch of silver maple longbows that end up taking 2 inches or more set, with chrysals even, that out shoot the crap out of my reflexed osage longbows, and I mean bows with around 3 1/2" to 4" natural reflex. I am sure this is mostly because of weight. Silver maple is like styrofoam light, and makes a very fast shooting bow. There is only so much you can do to eliminate outer mass with a heavy wood like osage, there is definitely a limit. I'd have to custom make my own horn nocks anymore for my osage bows, because the tips are like needles.
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I knew the topic would bring in some responses. The jist of the question was just to see how much more can you get away with if you made a bow from a lighter wood (with some follow) and get the same performance as if you had a denser bow without the string follow. Toomanyknots brings an important point where those bows with the set are shooting as well as the ones with the reflex. since ive been experimenting with light mass woods This just crossed my mind. I understand the bows described would not be the most efficient but it was for the sake of example.
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Lol! Chris, I hardly consider that as picking on me. I knew this topic would be an interesting jackpot to jump into from the get go. There's not even a consensus on the definition of string follow, that alone makes this impossible to answer definitively. As has been stated, there are way to many variables to consider to say one way or another. There are almost as many ways to tweak the design and tiller to favor one over the other as there are ways to tweak the argument in ones favor. Nevertheless, I really do enjoy a good discussion on theory. Arguing with me on theory is a lot like trying to wrestle a pig in mud, sooner or later you will realize that the pig is enjoying it regardless of the outcome. Lol! Oh, and Del, brunettes. ;) Josh