Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lesken2011 on August 15, 2012, 10:19:42 pm
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I have a hickory backed maple molle I made a couple of months ago....well I got it made to the point of being able to shoot it. I shot it a couple hundred times and notices a couple of crystals in one area of one limb. I was a little disappointed and put the bow up and started on another. For some reason, though, every time I went out to shoot some of the bows I have made, I would grab it and shoot a few through it too. It took a couple inches of set, but shoots so sweet I have to be careful or shoot my nocks off. I decided I want to try to salvage it in spite of the crystals in the limb.
Now for my questions. Since it is backed, what are my chances of heat treating the limbs to help protect them from further damage and the backing staying on? Should I concentrate on the crystaled areas or the entire limbs?
While on the subject of heat treating ....as far as bending goes. I see that some people use a lubricant like cooking oil to aid the even spreading of heat. What happens when you get ready to finish the bow with oil on the limbs?
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I used cooking oil to heat bend an osage bow once. When I tried backing it with sinew later it came loose. I didn't get the oil out of it good enough. I had to really scrub it with Dawn and acetone to get it clean enough to allow the sinew to stick to it. I quit using oil after that and haven't noticed a difference.
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Kenny, I can't help you on the chrysals. I'm guessing the glue joint would suffer if not come apart outright, but again that's a guess. I used epoxy to glue tip overlays on my last bow. Glued them on once I started tillering, heat treated the belly when I was done and then steamed them loose so I could re-glue. 20 minutes of steaming and they fell off... As far as the oil on the limbs, Someone may have a better way, but I wash with dawn soap and a scrub brush, set it outside to dry for a day or so and off I go. I have had to repeat the wash on some a second time.
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If it's chrysalled, IMO all you will achieve is making them worse...
They go surprisingly deep. I reworked an old 60# Elm ELB into a 30# bow by taking down the chrysalled belly, they went about 4mm deep and I never really got 'em all out.
I think chrysals are natures way of telling you to start another bow ;D and be thankful it just chrysalled and didn't blow >:D.
A chrysalled bow will still shoot but is always going to be a bit puddingy...
Del
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Grind the belly flat and add an osage lam of about .060-.100 thick. Then tiller it RIGHT this time Kenny!
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Grind the belly flat and add an osage lam of about .060-.100 thick. Then tiller it RIGHT this time Kenny!
Ditto
That bellys toast man,only way to fix is doing it the way pearl says. Or just learn from that one and try to make another
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Thanks for the advice, fellas. The thought had occurred to me about adding a lam, but only as a last resort. Well, I guess it's a good time to learn. :-\
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Its super easy Kenny. You may find yourself doing it on a few others.....its a great trick to know.
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i know that the dean torges patch is meant for hinges, but wouldnt it also fix chrysalls ???
-Billy
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What tool do you use to "grind" the limbs flat? I don't have an oscillating sander. Do you eyeball it or do you have some sort of jig to keep the limbs even. That thin of a lam doesn't leave much to tiller does it?
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Use your ferriers rasp or rasp and keep it dead flat until the edges are square again. The use a fine rasp to clean it up smooth. Glue a strip down and retiller. I suggest TBIII glue
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Those tools I have. Thanks PD. I'll post some pics when I'm done.
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Get thise fades working a little harder this time. I have only built one molly, but I know the WHOLE working limb needs to move evenly to keep it together and effeicent.
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I think I built this one a little narrow for white wood. 1.5" when it probably should have been more like 2" which probably resulted in the 2" or so of set and the crysals. I am working on a white oak one right now that is more of a trapezoidal style with 2" width at the handle fades down to 1.5" width at the lever fades. Most of the crystals on the first one were near the handle which was cut to the same thickness. I hope this gives me more room for error on this one.
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Kenny, I got a pair of osage lam's that are allready milled flat and ready to go.....if ya want to try and save the first one also.....ya got my email, bud
rich
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Thanks, Rich. I got the rest of that osage board I bought I may cut part of it into lams. If I run into a snag, I'll let you know.
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That seems to be par for the course with whitewoods being steamed. They seem to take dry heat better. Why not just make a bow with what you have? Jawge
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If it's chrysalled, IMO all you will achieve is making them worse...
They go surprisingly deep. I reworked an old 60# Elm ELB into a 30# bow by taking down the chrysalled belly, they went about 4mm deep and I never really got 'em all out.
I think chrysals are natures way of telling you to start another bow ;D and be thankful it just chrysalled and didn't blow >:D.
A chrysalled bow will still shoot but is always going to be a bit puddingy...
Del
I was mid way through an ash bow recently and havent used ash in ages. Lately i have been lucky enough to work pretty dense woods such as cherry and yew. Ash is not cherry or yew.
It was a bit of an expeiment so i went pretty short say 64 and only about 1 3/8 wide stiff handle and reflexed the tips.
Right from the off i was starting to get early set so rather than take down the weight i decided to heat treat, that worked for a bit.
Then the set kept coming back, tiller was ok but something was wrong all the way with weight dropping all the time, only a few lbs but enough to say some thing was wrong.
Eventually I started to see small chrystals and eventually it got worse on both limbs.
Once i see chrystals i know it all over and its only worth proceeding for experiments sake.
Basically I did everything wrong, too short, not wide enough, too higher weight for the design.
Another good idea would be to work under a good light so very early chrystals are easier to spot so changes can be made to maybe save the bow.
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Thanks Dwardo. I decided to try adding some belly lams. Not sure what I am going to use. I thought about osage or ipe, but the thought of using crepe myrtle keeps coming back up in my mind.
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OK...I decided to take Pearlie's advice and do the osage lam thing which was also given the nod by Half Eye. Here is how it turned out. (Don't say a word about my messy work table. I have everything organized where I can find it! ??? )
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/intwcjokzujphs.jpg)
The other limb...
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/oao8nmuyf7jh85.jpg)
I haven't re-tillered yet, but the bow is almost dead flat right now. That osage sure is pretty next to that white wood. I am really excited about the prospect of saving this bow. I'll keep you posted.
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Looks great Kenny....those feather edges are terrific,sir.
rich
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PRESTO! You will be glad you didnt leave it alone and start another so quick. Go ahead and start another by all means! Just be sure to give this one all you got before you hang it up. I believe you have Kenny.
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I did this same thing with a 60" osage static recurve I built with wood that was 2 months off the stump. Even though it worked like dry wood and felt like dry wood this bow began to take on excessive set and fretted at the handle on both limbs. After a few months I added thin strips of Argentine osage to the belly and put the bow into reflex while it cured. After retillering the bow came out 10# heavier and shot like a dream. It was my elk hunting bow last year. I also added cherry bark backing to it for a camo effect.
You will be surprised how well this bow shoots for you. You did a beautiful job on the lamination. 8)
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Thanks, guys. I have it on the tiller tree, now. I wanna make sure the tiller is better this time. I did pick up a good bit of weight, Pat, so I have some room. I'll post some pics when it is finished.
By the way, PD. You remember the post about ADD? I have 3 different bows going, right now. It's the only way I can keep from rushing one. If I get too anxious to finish it, like taking too much wood off too fast, then I put it aside and work on another for a while till the urge subsides. It's my remedy for a lack of patience.
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Nice save,looks good. :)
Pappy
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So never having done any laminations before, I have to ask, how did you get the two surfaces to mate up properly for glue up?? sorry for the newb question
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On this one, I used the bend in the belt sander. The goal was to flatten the belly eliminating the rounded edges, otherwise the belly was relatively flat. Long smooth strokes from fade to fade got it pretty close. I cut the lams to about 3/32, kinda, between 1/16 and 1/8. I was afraid the 1/8 might be a little thick to bend at the fades right. I used TBII since in didn't need much and had a little left in a bottle I wanted to use. I let it set a full 24 hrs and got lucky, I guess. It picked up some weight and took some of the set out. It shoots real snappy, now.
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There ya go, sir......now ya aint gotta hunt no Quadriplegic deers,eh? >:D
rich
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Pictures....................
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I gotta do the tips and dress it up first. Patience... ;)
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OK. After shooting the bow in with the new lams, I noticed my glue line failing at the handle fade on one limb.
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/hfvwjyq0rbaw0d.jpg)
My first attempt to fix was to clean out the old glue as good as I could with a knife blade and squirt in thin superglue and re-clamp. After leaving overnight, no luck. This time I re-glued with 3500 psi epoxy from HD. This time it held. (I have used that glue on some handles lately, too with pretty good results.)
This is why I like this bow so much!!
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/m3eysxib8j6pt6.jpg)
That's only from about 10 yards, but the bow shoots really smooth!
The hard maple board I started with was a full inch thick which does not appear to bend, so I glued on a 1/4' piece of poplar to the front and back of the handle to round it out. The poplar is soft and very easy to work. Here is the front of the handle.
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/i4tnfyvxhdh04a.jpg)
Here is the back.
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/jwbajojra7xbek.jpg)
[size=78%]Here is one full draw pic.[/size]
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/uaagx4torwrp2y.jpg)
and another...
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/mnnyb7bkfqgkv6.jpg)
I think I am going to pike it an inch on each end, thin the levers, some, and add tip overlays. Then build up the sides of the handle a tad with leather and dress her up for the prom. I'll post some finish pics when I'm done.
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That sir is a Mollegabet bend ....excellent save and excellent tiller on the "improved" version. Now kill some venison,eh? Well Pork aint bad either 8)
rich
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Like that one a lot Kenny. Very sweet bend.
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Nice! That turned out much better than just tossing it in a corner would have done for it. Your tiller looks good. I wouldnt suggest taking anything of the ntn length. Its working O.T. now. Good save Bulldog!
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Thanks, guys. I decided not to pike it. It is 50#@27" right now after being shot in with a little more sanding to do. It does have a couple inches of set measured from the lever fade, but is smooth as silk. I just put osage orange tip overlays on.
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Thanks, guys. I decided not to pike it. It is 50#@27" right now after being shot in with a little more sanding to do. It does have a couple inches of set measured from the lever fade, but is smooth as silk. I just put osage orange tip overlays on.
Yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah.
PICTURES!
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That is a sweet save. good job sticking with her til she came around.
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I decided to keep the bow natural since I couldn't figure a way to compliment the osage with a stain. Here are a couple of pics of it while it is on my redneck bow drying rack.
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/vj2vms2vv6dzyx.jpg)
Here is the osage tip pic you requested, JW!
(http://www.traditionalbowman.com/hwdphotos/uploads/62/2/sv80hw4yjyxcej.jpg)
When she gets all dry, I finish up the handle, get a string on her and post some pics.
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Nice save and looks pretty cool to! It appears to shoot even better than it looks. Well done Sir! Josh
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I believe you made an excellent choice with leaving the bow in it's natural colors, great way to highlight the different woods. And as the osage ages and darkens it will further dramatize the difference.
Nice work, nice work indeed!
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Way to stay with it !!! very nice :)
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I am glad you decided to stay with that one Kenny. It turned out really fine. I am glad you decided against piking it - a bow that bends that good and shoots that straight just can't be improved on too much. Great work brother!