Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: tanner on July 23, 2012, 02:15:28 pm
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Hello all - I've been lurking/absorbing just about everything in this forum for the last month or two. Now that I'm getting close to go-time on my very first attempt at making a bow, I thought I would throw out a request for a quick sanity-check. Here's my bow (youtube vid was easier to see than the pics I was getting, but if you guys prefer pics in-line, I can do that too):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6T-2tTfOC4&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6T-2tTfOC4&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Stats - this is a 63'' tip-to-tip bow made from a stave of black walnut. I cut it in June of this year and still have the other half to work on while I locate some more no0b friendly staves (hickory, etc). It did twist a little bit from drying too fast, but I'm thinking based on things I've read here that the twists probably aren't a problem so long as the string bisects the handle properly. Also, in case you're curious this design came from a combination modeling my 60'' Martin recurve (apparent in the handle) and viewing some of the bows on this site and some youtube vids. Anyway, where I'm at right now is that I've done some floor tillering and I believe I'm ready for the next step. However, in an attempt to hopefully increase my chances of success with this one rather than making a pretty piece of firewood, I was hoping i could get some advice on a few concerns I have (and any other things that you might think after seeing it). Here's what's on my mind:
- Walnut - I did find a few threads here and elsewhere talking about using black walnut as a bow wood. My choice for this bow was simply because black walnut is very easy to find around my place. That being said, I'm concerned about the back. I read somewhere that it IS ok to use the sapwood as the back WITHOUT backing. As such, I didn't chase any rings on this one (walnut rings are hard to see), I simply removed the bark and did my best not to ding the surface. Question - do I need to do something else /w the back to give me better protection against breaking/splinters? Also note in the video that there are a few knots, but I'm hoping they won't be a big deal.
- Handle - I do need to adjust the grip a little bit for comfort and get the arrow rest down a touch. The handle is currently 12''-to-13'' long. I am wondering if I should be concerned about not having enough working limb since my handle is taking up so much space?
- Heat treating - I am planning to heat treat the belly (which I understand that I need to do before moving to the next step of tillering). Anything weird with heat-treating walnut that I need to worry about? I'm currently following a mostly-flat belly design.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts guys! I'll keep updating this thread /w progress as I go.
Thanks again!
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First off, you are off to a darn fine start! 2" at the fades is perfect. I'm a bit concerned about length though. What draw length and draw weight are you hoping for? With walnut, your working length of the limbs need to be at least the length of your draw. It looks to me like you have quite a bit of extra fade out. I would work those closer to the handle. I recommend1 1/2" from the shoulder of your fade to the start of your bend. As far as heat treating goes, in my experience it only make walnut brittle . I don't recommend it on black walnut. I look forward to seeing your progress. Josh
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Great advice - thanks doc! I need to re-measure my draw length because of some tweaks to my style in the last 6 months, but I believe I'm at 28''. Weight-wise I'd really like to end up around 60# so that I could potentially use this bow to hunt deer. My Martin x200 is 55#, but since I'm a lefty (you might have noticed the shelf being on the "wrong" side) it's slightly more difficult to find traditional bows that are north of 55# from the vendors.
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Very nice start !!!
With help from Doc and the care shown so far, I really can"t wait to see it finished :)
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You're indeed off to a good start! Looks like a nice stave. It's funny to see that a movie is easier to make/post than a photo ;)
I, too, am a bit concerned about the length of the bow. Luckily the stave is pretty wide to accommodate for some of the short length, but it's still too short for my liking. I would recommend beginners to go not shorter than 68" on a bow, and with a long and stiff handle even 72" is a smart decision. Your handle design might seem a logical step, following the design of the modern recurve you're used to. But that shelf you cut in will make things more complicated. With a wooden bow and wooden arrows, you really don't need a cut-in sight window. Really.
I don't think you need a backing, since the back of the stave is very nice and clean. However, this being your first bow, and the relatively short length, a backing might still be a smart step. You can glue down some silk or linen fabric, or even raw hide. It'll give you some extra insurance.
I can't comment on the heat treating...I don't have a lot of experience with that, and none with black walnut.
Since the wood was cut in June, you must consider it to be still wet. How long has it been to near finished dimensions? And where was it stored during that period? With the current dimensions of the wood, you could quick dry it in about three weeks. Put it in a warm and dry place. A car parked in the sun, hot attic, near the central heating system...
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Definitely check your drawlength. 26" is very doable if you can get your stiff handle down to 8" or so. 28" is just too much to ask from this stave. You are on the right track with the flat belly. 60# @ 26" should be no problem with this stave. You could gain another 1" of draw with tip overlays that extend past the end of the present tip length, but if they are not done right you could have a disaster. If you go this way, make sure the string nocks catch the end of the limb. Ill get my trusty crayons out in a bit and show you what I mean. Josh
Hopefully my crummy drawing kind of illustrates the tip extension I was referring to.
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HUGE thanks for all the advice guys!
Unfortunately this might get a touch more challenging as I just re-measured my draw length and I'm pulling a solid 28 (closer to 28 1/2) now. I changed my anchor from the corner of my mouth to about 1/2'' back to my jaw around 6mo ago and have been getting much better consistent results from it (I feel like I get a bit more snap outta my arrows too). That being the case I'll do some measuring and see what I can get the handle down to safely. My thought is I can probably get some length back since I've still left it pretty thick - hoping that will help compensate for some of the real estate taken up by the sight window.
Darksoul - you hit it right on the head - I was trying to keep things as familiar as possible, but I guess at the time didn't consider the cost to working limb length.
I'll do some measuring/guestimating tonight after the kiddos go to bed and how much I think I can get back from the handle. After that I'll also do some pondering tip-overlays. I have done some reading on them, but had decided maybe to hold off on the extra step for my first bow. However, if it might make the difference between a potential quality shooter and a pretty wall-hanger, I might brave it. First things first - I'll post again in a bit with some measurements.
Thanks again!
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Just want to add one thing... You said you want a 60# bow to hunt deer, but unless your deer are the side of moose you don't need a self bow that heavy to get the job done. Since this is your first bow, I would shoot for 40-45#, plenty to kill a deer with a sharp arrow to the vitals... Plus it will be much easier to hit weight. Course if you want a 60 pound bow, that's your choice, just wanted to add in a little info. ;D
Jon
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@Ifrit617:
Yeah - I know it's a bit overkill, but I wanted to see what (if) I was missing anything from a hunting perspective with the 55#. My uncle hunts bear and elk with a 60# recurve and I know he always says that he wishes his was more like 55# to save him the back ache and that a 45#er will still put an arrow clear through a deer if you shoot right. I also had in the back of my mind that no0bs such as myself come under weight more often than not so I figured shoot for the high-end of happy and hopefully end-up in the middle. :) Solid advice though brother - thanks!
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Just want to add one thing... You said you want a 60# bow to hunt deer, but unless your deer are the side of moose you don't need a self bow that heavy to get the job done. Since this is your first bow, I would shoot for 40-45#, plenty to kill a deer with a sharp arrow to the vitals... Plus it will be much easier to hit weight. Course if you want a 60 pound bow, that's your choice, just wanted to add in a little info. ;D
Jon
he could just do what i did, make your first 60, but with the speed of 45-50 ::)
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Quote from: Ifrit617 on Today at 05:55:41 pm
Just want to add one thing... You said you want a 60# bow to hunt deer, but unless your deer are the side of moose you don't need a self bow that heavy to get the job done. Since this is your first bow, I would shoot for 40-45#, plenty to kill a deer with a sharp arrow to the vitals... Plus it will be much easier to hit weight. Course if you want a 60 pound bow, that's your choice, just wanted to add in a little info. ;D
Jon
he could just do what i did, make your first 60, but with the speed of 45-50 ::)
You might just be right. :)
Ok - so I did some measuring and I might be able to stretch the limbs to 26'' between the handle and each tip. The makes me wonder about the upper limb (above sight window) though. At the top of the sight window the bow measures 2'' wide almost exaclty. I DID leave it plenty thick to handle the load, but extending to 26'' of working limb above the riser means trying to make some of my sight window bend which I'm sure is less than ideal. Thoughts?
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Less than ideal is correct. Your 1 1/2" fade should start at the shoulder of your sight window. Do you know anybody that needs a short draw southpaw bow? I'm afraid this ones a practice run for you. However, you should most definitely finish the bow out. The experience from this one will only mean a better next one. I would highly suggest keeping it for yourself even if its too short. I certainly wish that I would have kept my first bow. You've done fine work so far. I look forward to seeing not only this one finished, but the next one and the next one and.........and............ well you get the point. Josh
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Well - that is a little disappointing, but I'm definitely going to finish it out. My thought now is maybe to just use it as a short draw/quick shoot bow. In any case - thanks again guys for all the thoughts. As soon as it's not 100deg in the evening I'll move forward on it and keep let you all know how it goes.
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Finish it like you said to a short draw"for you" what a heck of a start it would be a shame to try to make somthing it wont be and brake it...walnut is picky more so than most, i have not tryd sapwood yet but the few heart wood i have done have told me that even maken them a bit long for the draw.....cant wait to see the money shot on that one...best of luck ;)
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Thanks Soy! I'm just excited to get it throwing sticks! I can't wait to start bow #2 also - I learned that there are a TON of mulberry trees around my place... :)
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Ok - long time/no update on this one, but I did pick it back up and have been slowly finishing it off. I had to take some timeout to build a tillering tree, cut up some staves for my next bows, etc. Here's a pic of where I'm at in tillering:
(http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p548/tannerwade/20120815_210250.jpg)
Since the last time I posted, I've gotten the limb width down to final dimensions though they may be a bit wide at the tips. I did some floor tillering and a small bit of long-string tillering on my newly-built tillering tree, but felt I was ready to move on so I tried getting the bow to low brace with a string I had just recently made (my first one - flemmish twist). I cut in the string nocks and tied a timber hitch in the lower-end of the string (didn't want to finish the string off since I was going to tiller with it first). I had to spend a little time adjusting the nocks since I used a round file and apparently didn't get them deep enough - the string kept slipping out when I'd go to string it which leads me to question #1:
Is using a round-file a mistake for cutting in the string nocks? I suspect I just wasn't getting them deep enough, but I am also wondering if the rounded shoulder in the depth of the nock is more likely to cause problems.
Once I had the string nock issue worked out I moved on to my next problem - the timber hitch. I was able to get my bow strung to low brace without too much of a problem after some trial and error with where to tie the timber hitch on the lower-limb side of the string. However, the problem I ran into was that no matter how many times I tied it the timber hitch would eventually slip (sometimes right away - sometimes after a few pulls of the string exercising the limbs) which would take it out of low brace. I finally took to some artistic license in making the knot and got one that stuck. the problem I had then was that it wasn't slipping at all and I found that the string length I was using with the unstable knot was too short and I didn't realize it (due to the slipping knot). The result was a 5 or 6 in brace before the bow was likely ready. The good news is that it didn't explode, but it did take on a little bit of set (looks like 1'' or so). Anyway, a little more tillering and I quit about the time I took the picture above. There's a little bit of twist i need to work out in addition to some hinging in the lower limb at the fades. I also need to get the tiller generally evened out, but it's going much faster than I expected. I'll keep updating, but I'm really hoping to have it flinging arrows tonight assuming it doesn't blow up on me. Thanks!
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Looks like it's taking shape to harvest some meat! A lot better than my first.
Tracy
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Looking good so far,I use a 5/32 chain saw file and file them in about file deep,never had a problem with that. I use fine sand paper to get the sharp edges off so it won't cut the string. :) On the timber hitch,be sure to pull the tag end around to the back side of the bow and it won't slip,I use it all the time with just 2 loop troughs,I see people tie it but don't pull the loose end to the back of the bow and it will always slip. :) :)
Pappy
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Thanks Tracy - I'm just going for functional but I'd be thrilled if it turns out hunting-worthy.
Pappy - solid advice as always. Thanks man!
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Annnnnd crack!
I tillered for quite awhile last night late and felt like I was close enough to draw length to go ahead and put the final string on it and reduce weight just a little more. I finished my string and braced it this morning - the string was just a hair short (1/4''?) but I thought maybe it was ok. I rasped the belly a couple times on both sides and drew the string just a few inches for some limb-exercise when I heard the audible crack. When I looked at the back of the bow I could barely see a the little crack just south of the fade of the lower limb. I unstrung the bow and cursed a couple of times and put it back on the shelf. I went back outside to take a picture so I could post it here with my plea for help, but you can't even see it in the pictures - just barely with the naked eye. Anyway, the crack is at the crest of the curve on the back - just a couple inches south of the bottom limb fade. There are no imperfections such as knots, etc - I think it was just taking a little too much load (the outer limb was looking a touch stiff hence the scraping). Now that I've created another learning experience for myself, what are my options? Do I have to back the whole thing? Should I try a sinew wrap at the crack site? The sinew wrap would be easier since I have some artificial sinew on a spool that I got to make arrows, but I'll bow to you guys' expert opinions. :)
Thanks!
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ok - I read a couple of threads before and after I posted (only found what's probably the answer after) and it sounds like so long as the crack is small and doesn't go to the ends it's not a problem? Or is this just with vertical cracks? I'm wondering if I could just fill it with super glue and sand it down a touch? Maybe wrap with sinew for good measure?
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Longitudinal cracks are OK, transverse cracks, not so much. Worth a go on the things you mentioned. Nothing to lose but a little time and effort even if it doesn't work. They say that Edison discovered hundreds of ways not to make a light bulb.
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Artificial sinew is no substitute for the real animal product. It is....well....artificial. It doesn't share any of the characteristics with real sinew. That being said, it is still a strong, plastic thread that can be used for bindings. It may not be the best looking binding, but it will work. However, a transverse crack cannot be wrapped with thread and expected to be strong. The thread will run in the same direction as the crack and will only get pulled apart as the bow is pulled.
How big is the crack? Maybe a picture doesn't work, so you can describe the crack. If it already appeared at maybe half draw, that doesn't sound good. Such cracks from overstressing should occur at the peak stress level: at full draw OR when the limbs are grossly mis-tillered. Was there a hinge where the back cracked?
Fixing transverse cracks can be difficult, if not impossible. Applying a decent backing (animal sinew, wood, bamboo) may be an option.
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That was a great first effort. You might salvage a shooting bow by wrapping it tightly with some B-50 and superglue, or sinew and hide glue, or a rawhide bandage...... Whatever you decide, now is a good time to embrace the learning experience and look to your next one.
Don't feel too bad. I had a persimmon bow blow apart on me yesterday in spectacular fashion. I had worked on it about three August hot days and all it got me was a knot on my head..... I learned about overheating an overly dry stave, and overstressing a type of wood I was completely unfamiliar with.... ouch. I think I invented some new profanity.
I don't know if you have hickory or white oak where you are, but I have to recommend them. Even I have been unable to break a bow from one of those staves. Maybe go at least 66" long on your next one and my crystal ball tells me that you will be hunting with your next one. Welcome to the addiction. :)
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Thanks guys - I'm a little bummed to be sure. As to the size of the crack it's pretty much invisible unless the string is on it. When it's braced it's very very slim and runs about half the width of the limb, but sits evenly in the middle (doesn't touch the edges). It doesn't look very deep (I'm wondering if it's just the top layer of wood, but that probably doesn't matter). There was a hint of a hinge early-on in the same vicinity that I had all but corrected out of the tiller. When I shortened the string a little bit it seemed to reemerge which is about the time it popped. I was routinely getting the draw to about 23'' or so just before the final string shortening (this might not be the right way to do it) so it was taking some draw at the time.
Since it sounds like my sinew wrap is not likely to pan out I'm contemplating making a wall hanger out of it rather than risk the explosion. We already know that my design was flawed from the beginning. I may let it sit for awhile and continue working on my next two that are already moving forward. Thanks for all the advice on this one guys - I'll be much smarter about my next one for sure.