Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: George Tsoukalas on July 23, 2012, 10:34:45 am
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I've been trying to make, breaking and making bows since '89. I've immersed myself in the bow making literature and have most of the books. I've been a subscriber to PA since the 2nd issue. However, I've never heard the term 5 curve bow. I see deflex-reflex bows called 5 curves. I've seen gull wing bows called 5 curves. The only forum I remember seeing "5 curve" bows is this one. Is the term peculiar to this site. What is a 5 curve bow? Why are we using it all of a sudden when other terms have served for years? Just curious. :) Jawge
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Interesting question. I have no idea who coined the phrase or when, but I like it. The term "5-curve" for me , conjures up the mental image of a plains gull wing with recurves. I would imagine there are quite a few terms used regularly today that were not used in the past. The term "flipped tips" for instance, I would guess that probably only goes back a decade or two, but it is a widely recognized and useful term in the community. If you track down where the term " 5- curve" started, I would be interested in learning of its origin. Josh
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Well, I reckon its the same reason osage orange has so many different names. Sometimes we use our imagination to describe things and then like they way it came out so it sticks. I'm a relative newcomer so I don't have all the traditional names for describing all the different aspects of primitive archery. I certainly don't mean any disrepect when I call something the wrong name. Just my own ignorance.. :)
Scott
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Thats also a new term to me also. Even a recurve or gull wing dos'nt have 5 curves or is that surpose to be 5 inch curve.
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Jawge being relatively new to this, I don't a clue as to how, when or where a term began and but the why is obvious in the profile. I am curious as to what advantage there are in the design. To me other than the center curve (handle) it looks like a bow that took some set with flipped tips? The end result is very a pleasant profile and a graceful looking bow but what are the advantages???
Sorry Jawge don't want to pull your topic off target, just curious???
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Im willing to bet most start out as a short flat bow with reflexed tips that takes on mid limb set and is then called a 5-curve bow. Im curious as to how many actually build mid limb deflex in from the start.
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I'm extremely new to this, but I've read the four bowyer's bibles, and have picked up most of my terminology from those, usually with no explanation of what the terms literally mean, and I've just had to infer from there.
The whole section on Osage Orange, I kept thinking "Man, that wood looks so familiar, but they say it's native to the West." Come to find out, that's what my uncle had planted all around his property to border his fields from neighbors fields, and all my life I've known it as a hedgeapple, growing those putrid green fruit the horses used to eat.
I was entirely unaware 5-curve was anything other than a common term.
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Pearly- I put in the deflex midlimb from the start. However, I believe the originals were probably straight bows that took a lot of set . The handle were probably set back in an effort to counteract the set. I say probably because obviously I'm just theorizing. I like the design for two basic reasons. The first one is that I find the profile aesthetically pleasing. The main reason that i like the design is that with all those curves ,you effectively shorten the overall length of the braced bow while maintaining the actual length of the limbs doing the work. For example, the five curve on my bench now is 54" ntn, but with all the curves it is as compact at brace as my 48" d-bow at brace. Sort of follows the old farmers adage "you can plant more corn on a crooked row" Josh .
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Good explanation Josh. Im glad to hear you planned yours, Im afraid most arent. Again Im just guessing.
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George, I think "5 curve" is not PA lingo. It seems to be used by various bowyers out there in cyber space. I've never heard it used during regular conversation, though.
Sometimes you hear the term used on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtikoWw4_1A
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Good explanation Josh. Im glad to hear you planned yours, Im afraid most arent. Again Im just guessing.
Well you can plan it and you can end up with it simply by tillering the bow to the profile. If you start out with a very reflexed bow, and only tiller the mid-limbs while leaving the handle and tips stiff, you can end up with a 5 curve profile. I would like to create a form however and figure out a good way to steam handle set back into blank selfbow staves, but as of yet I haven't made or tried anything. The main reason for a set back handle is increased draw length, which obviously increases the bows performance.
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I watched a documentary on t.v. where A guy started cataloging baby names from the same hospital for like 30 years. Names started developing many variation within the same name as far as spelling goes. For example, he looked at the feminine name "Unique." he discovered 47 different spellings of Unique over a thirty year period. I think it is no stretch at all to make that simmilarity here.
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Here is a mulberry stave I cut specifically to make a setback handle 5 curve out of. I had been eyeing this stave (or "tree") for 2 years before I cut it. It's got 4 1/2" natural reflex at the handle:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Set%20Back%20Handle%20Mulberry%20Stave/Snapshot17-23-20123-18PM.png)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/Set%20Back%20Handle%20Mulberry%20Stave/Snapshot17-23-20123-17PM.png)
Here is a set back handle hackberry stave from a tree I cut this spring. Although it is only a little bit set back, and will only be about the aesthetics of a 5 curve profile bow not added draw length. ...I guess that goes for the mulberry one too. I also plan to turn this stave into a 5 curve:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/setback%20handle%20hackberry%20stave/Snapshot27-11-20129-28PM.png)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/setback%20handle%20hackberry%20stave/Snapshot67-11-20129-30PM.png)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/setback%20handle%20hackberry%20stave/Snapshot57-11-20129-30PM.png)
This stave also has a sister stave that has a similar profile. I also have a mulberry stave that is almost worked down to bow, which is evenly reflexed at about 4 1/4" natural reflex, which I might just make into a 5 curve contact recurve,... or at least I would like to try. I think that would be pretty cool, kinda like a cupid bow?
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I think Ed Scott referred to one of his bows as a 5 curve in one of the youtube interview videos. I think that is the first place I heard them called that.
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I would NOT recommend tillering in(purposely inducing set) the desired profile. To do that would mean that you have exceeded the elasticity limits and moved well into the plastic range of the wood. This, for the most part would mean that you have turned your good stave into a cool looking limp noodle. Excessive set is always a bad thing, sinew backed or not. I don't have a "5-curve" caul that I clamp the bow into to shape. I have several different radiused half circle cauls that I use. Every bend is done individually. The caul I use for the setback and recurves is the radius of a 3# coffee can. The radius for the midlimb bends is a 55 gal. Drum. Sorry George I don't mean to hi-jack your thread. Just seems to be a sticky topic in several aspects. We could start a new thread if you prefer. Josh
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My understanding is that a 5 curve bow is a gull wing style bow with recurved/reflexed tips. The reflexed handle and reflexed tips account for three of the curves and the bend in the limbs accounts for the other two.
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It is nice to use terminology we can agree on so we know what we are talking about. My understanding is that it is a gull wing too. Don't see what else it can be. :) Jawge
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Like most of my bow language the term "5 curve" was picked up right here. I simply
don't know enough to really care what some things should be called and don't care
if I never learn them.
I make bows so that I can shoot them. Never will be as good as I want to be but
enjoy trying. I really don't enjoy making bows and if I had me a bow from Pearlie
and one from twistedlimbs I might never make another.
My one "complaint" with the TBB series was that it never really got basic enough to
define terms that were unfamiliar to beginners. In fact , George's site probably
helped me get started more than any other single source. Thanks , George. Gull
wing it is.
Lane
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I would NOT recommend tillering in(purposely inducing set) the desired profile.
I agree, I think? Although I don't know what you mean by "tillering in". I don't think anyone purposely tillers in set, set just happens. (I'm thinking this is in response to where I explained how a 5 curve bow profile can be created by tillering a very reflexed stave in the mid limbs and leaving the handle and tips stiff. I have did this a couple times, and sometimes not even on purpose, like I think pearldrums was talking about.) None of the bows I have made in this way came out anything like limb noodles, and I think if you are making the statement that constructing a bow with a nonworking handle and stiff tips will in anyway guarantee a "limb noodle" bow, than I just can't agree with you for reasons that are hopefully obvious. Although, I think I might be confused as to what you are saying Gundoc, as I do agree that there is no need to purposely induce set, such as pre-bend the curves in the middle of the limbs that will form naturally as the bow is tillered.
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First of all Ryoon described a five curve perfectly. Lane- don't take this the wrong way, your bow is a nice piece of work and I'm not knocking it or you. Nothing but respect for you, but your bow doesn't have a setback handle. The setback handle is what makes a gullwing, gullwing with recurves= five curve. I know you just stated that you don't care, but this could very well be the r/d bow George was referring to as being called a five curve. Just clearing up the confusion.
TMK- set is from overworking the wood until it deforms and does not spring back to its shape before you started straining it. If you heat in the bend, that is only deflexing it. There is a big difference. If you heat in the midlimb deflex, the wood is still resilient and snappy(for lack of a better word) . If you only tiller a smaller section to bend while the rest of the bow is static (hinge) so that the working portion stays bent after the strain is relieved, that is set. That means the belly wood has been crushed and the result is a sluggish return to brace. Josh
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Lot of good points here, r/d, gull wing, and 5 curve are simlar but dose a gull wing bend in the handle? Seams needles to argue ...but a deflex and a set in limb will have a difference in cast no mayyer what name you use ;)
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TMK- I reread your post several times. If you're saying that the braced profile will resemble a gullwing , but return to straight limbs with a reflexed handle. Then I agree. I thought you were trying to induce a permanent unbraced gullwing profile through set. If it was the former opposed to the latter, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. Josh
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TMK- I reread your post several times. If you're saying that the braced profile will resemble a gullwing , but return to straight limbs with a reflexed handle. Then I agree. I thought you were trying to induce a permanent unbraced gullwing profile through set. If it was the former opposed to the latter, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. Josh
Oh it's fine, I apologize if I was the one misunderstanding you, ;D. And thank you for the clarification, I appreciate that.
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Josh that is why I called my bow a "semi" 5 curve. It was one that evolved from
a straight bow because of acquired set. All I did was flip the tips and re tiller.
I really admire you fellas that truly know what you are doing. But I don't envy
you your bowyer's skills. I have made 22 shooter's and all are basic sticks
and strings. The simple non technical approach to primitive hunting weapons
is a thing of pure pleasure for me. Don't want to spoil it with knowledge or
too much seriousness.
Btw...your 5 curve trade bow was no less than functional art. Awesome work.
Lane
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Let me just say that I got to shoot Josh's (Gun Doc) 5 curve prairie rattler (thanks Weylin ;)), and Josh knows what he is doing. That bow had not a sluggish fiber in it. I see Josh's differentiation of induced deflex via heat, and tillered in deflex via set as a very valid distinction.
Back to the main topic of this thread...terms. I first thought "flipped tips" meant that you switched which limb was upper and lower! :-[ ;D ;D ;D I see "set-back" used in older magazine articles and thereds to refer to reflex, but almost never see anyone on here use the term set-back. Language shifts through time..that is why I cant understand old english archery literature... ::)
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johnston, you are welcome. Glad you used my site.
soy, yes a gull wing is set back in the handle.
Jawge
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Ryoon,Described it perfectly.
I think the term became popular and more widespread,with the Video of Ed Scott.
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I know it os set back but dose it bend through the handle when drawn???
I was under the impression a gull wing was a nonbending while a 5curvegood was more of a bend through the handle while a r/d had no setback in the handle and was non bending.....bear with me as it takes a while some days for the fog to clear ::)
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That I don't know but will check the literature asap. :) Jawge
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A gull wing,5 curve or a D/R,can be either working or static risered.Its the unbraced shape,that determines it.Incidently,i see the Term Reflex/Deflex,used often to describe,the popular shape,of most modern bows today.R/D,is actually,a gull wing bow.Deflex/Reflex,is more proper,for the style,as the riser deflexes toward the fades.Does that create more confusion?LOL
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It's a good term. Not a full reflex or a gull wing, just five curves. Most of my ocean spray bows end up this way, just from taking a little set mid limb on a reflexed stave.
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George,
Well, I'm glad you asked because I have often wondered the same thing. ???