Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Barkspud on June 04, 2012, 09:07:29 pm

Title: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Barkspud on June 04, 2012, 09:07:29 pm
Ive  decided to make my first long bow and ive got some guidance in building it from a good friend Richard Longbow.  Did some searchs on the subject and see some of you have read his article way back on saltwater curing ;D. Well im not a bow maker but i know he is and i have seen his work. The last few mornings we've had lengthy discussions over the saltwater curing process and he offered me a stave of white ash all cured to make my first bow. I can see that from reading back posts youve hagled over the topic pretty good.  I have too read his writting in the magazine on it wether it make a difference who know? I do understand where he's coming from and sort of why? He is a Lacota indian and is a fine bow maker and leather craftsman. I trap alot and have been tanning hides with barks and acorns for somtime. My goal is to make some quivers out of otters and build my own arrows and bows. Im here to learn and get some other opinions and ideas ive worked with wood all my life and done a little bit of carving. There's many great bow makers out there and im sure some are here. Ive done tons of reading and watched several vids. I have patience and probably a little slow working wise i like to do things right the first time. Me and longbow have been friends for a handfull of summers now. Im am honored to have him help guide me along the way. I will be looking forward to reading post and seeing some of you alls work..I think im going to have a blast learning the process of building me a hunting bow..  Did i mention im a advid bow hunter and bears are my game...
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: sonny on June 04, 2012, 09:30:15 pm
is there a question in there somewhere ??
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: johnston on June 04, 2012, 09:36:06 pm
Not sure if I understood your post but welcome to the site, good to have you here.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Gordon on June 04, 2012, 09:46:51 pm
Welcome aboard. I'm looking forward to seeing some of your work.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: JW_Halverson on June 04, 2012, 10:01:00 pm
I'm fairly sure that the saltwater curing is not exactly a Lakota technique.  I could be wrong, but I've been all over the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana and the Minnesota and Wisconson woods whhere they originally came from and I didn't run across much salt water. 


I'd love to have someone put this to a controlled test with a set of sister staves taken side by side off a tree.  One air cured for 24 months and the other stewed in seawater for the same period of time and then air cured to a matching relative humidity.  Be a heck of a project, anyone game to take this on?
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Barkspud on June 04, 2012, 11:43:17 pm
No no questions in there just a hi and a starting point for me...didn't see where a new guy could introduce himself and say hi so i picked here. JW The saltwater curing was a idea he picked up away from  the dakotas it's not a native thing. He was studing a ship wreck and part of the cargo was bows that had been down and preserved. They dried some and found they still was usable. There some instrument thing in there as well but it definitely wasnt a lacota thing to set the record straight. The japanese did some stuff similar as well but heck that another story.  jw i agree thats the only way to do it is cut two cure one and one not. The saltwater curing takes some time because of the continuos soaking and drying to achive the cure. Just soaking once isnt going to do the trick from what i understandhe feels it acheives a denser wood or somthing like that. I'll be posting up pics and any info i gather along the way..either way it going to be a fun learning experience for me. Maybe we can shed some light on this salt thing and see if there really is a difference.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: DRon knife on June 04, 2012, 11:51:04 pm
 Salt does draw moisture,but does it damage wood cells? I will do a little testing.
 
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Hrothgar on June 05, 2012, 12:06:05 am
Barkspud, welcome to PA.
Your friend might be referring to the studies and experiments that were done on some yew longbows and staves that had sunk aboard the 'Mary Rose'. As I recall the bows were soaked for an extended time in pure water to clean out the salt, then gradually air-dried. Some broke, some were shot, some were retillered and shot.
I believe the book I read was Robert Hardy's 'A Social and Military History of the English Longbow'.
While Hardy did mention that it was common practice for the English to cure staves for a year or two in running water I don't recall him mentioning saltwater. The water probably mainly serves the purpose of keeping out/killing bugs and insects while the bark is still on the stave and the wood is curing.
I would think that saltwater would tend to have damaging effects on the natural oils/cells in the wood; but this is only my opinion and not based on tests.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: MWirwicki on June 05, 2012, 12:16:09 am
I have heard tale when I lived in Florida, about driftwood and old shipwreck timbers that hurricanes would break loose and cause to come  floating ashore.  They were said to be preserved by their time in the saltwater.  They brought quite a buck when pulled out of the water, air dried and used for fireplace mantles and such.

Nevertheless, Welcome Barkspud.  We look forward to helping you in your quest.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Barkspud on June 05, 2012, 12:18:23 am
Yep it sure does draw moisture i go through a ton off salt working in the lobster fishing industry and working with hides...i believe the thought is that the salt and minerals fill the voids in the cells creating a denser wood wich is not as prone to compressing when drawn. The oil treatments he give his bows monthly is to keep the water from becoming a issue. I know some musical instruments have salt water cured wood i believe some violins


Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Barkspud on June 05, 2012, 12:25:43 am
Hrothgar i belive thats the very ship wreck he mentioned i'm not 100% sure but we talk every morning so i'll ask. I don't know squat about this stuff but i know there's plenty here to learn. Im going to have fun doing it and i hope i find the answer..
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: George Tsoukalas on June 05, 2012, 12:42:13 am
Barkspud, welcome to PA. Jawge
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Badger on June 05, 2012, 12:51:27 am
  The ship wreck is likely the Mary Rose. One possibility about salt curing might be that salt being hydroscopic draws moisture out of the wood and stores it in the salt. Really only the belly fibers affected uch by mopisture but I guess it is possible.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on June 05, 2012, 02:24:16 am
Errr.  I know I came across a product that was designed for antiquities restoration.  Removing them fromt eh salt water put decay into hyperdrive and a whole process was developed for getting the items, which I thought were wood and semi precious metals, out of the water and under glass.  What the heck is the name of that chemical.  Tree carvers use it now to displace moisture in green wood and carve it. 

Why couldn't you just pack the stave in a tube of rock salt.  Why is the moisture needed in submerging the stave?  If you want to drive moisture out that should do it.  BUT you need to be careful about drying it too quickly I'd think.  I've dried carving blocks in the microwave by using umpteen million short sessions on 1/2 pwr till the weight stopped dropping when weighted.  So speed drying is possible.


I'd think a solar Kiln would be a better option OR store it near a boiler heater or something for a few weeks.  If you get into this you'll start cutting wood.  Then you'll get a bigger stash than bows you can make . . . so slow air drying isn't an issue any more.  Bows are drying but you haven't got time to get right on them anyway.

I'd say buy a stave or a board and start making bows, cut some wood and get it drying.  When it's ready you'll be ready.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: wasanchez on June 05, 2012, 02:55:11 am
Welcome to PA, so is the stave you are using saltwater cured, or is this something you are interested in.  I've never heard of it before, but it seems like it makes sense when you think about driftwood and such.

Walt
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: mikekeswick on June 05, 2012, 03:45:31 am
I know the Mary Rose bows were down there a goodly time but they were all degraded and when the ones that actually stayed together were tested the draw-weights were low. Maybe there is something in doing it for a short time but the MR bows will never be what they once were. Sure they are well preserved but not by the salt water.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Barkspud on June 05, 2012, 06:08:53 am
Yes the stave im going to start with is a saltwater cured piece of white ash. He has had it for several years actually has a few of them and offered one up to me.  Ive ran across alot of bs in my life and figured id do some reasearch and look around on line. Well i stumbled across this site and old posts on this so getting other thoughts on this. Ive always had a interest in making bows just never followed it. I ran into him some years ago and he repeaked my interest. Time will tell ive listened to him talk alot so time to listen to some others. He could be a crazy old dude but i will find out....
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: soy on June 05, 2012, 06:33:08 am
Regardless of salt or no salt i wish you good luck on your bow crafting and welcome to pa ;)
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Pappy on June 05, 2012, 06:55:58 am
Welcome to PA, Their are some very good bower's here that are more than happy to help and can help turn out a good hunting bow if that is your gold.No oppion on the salt water cure,all I can say is their are a lot of ways to make a bow so go for it if that is what you want to try,you never know till you do. The bows I seen in the magazine article seemed to have a lot of set,that is not to say they won't shoot OK,I just don't like lots of set in my bows. :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Dane on June 05, 2012, 07:48:09 am
Pappy hit the nail on the head. The biggest sticking point with a lot of folks was not the salt water curing, but the huge amount of set in his bows. They looked strung, they had so much set. Dane
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Will H on June 05, 2012, 10:05:07 am
Welcome to PA :)
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: cracker on June 05, 2012, 10:12:46 am
Really not to be going down a different path but I would think that borax might a better choice than salt. I don't know the hydroscopic potential of borax but it is used to cure meat so it should work on wood as well. Ron
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: blackhawk on June 05, 2012, 11:58:09 am
I like to build smokin fast bows so i shoot up my wood with nitrous whilst it seasons  >:D...shhhhh....dont tell anyone..its my secret ingredient to my recipe

Welcome to the loony bin......who cares how you get from a to b,as long as you enjoy it and are happy with the outcome...even if it is a string followed bow......start building man and try it all and experiment..and youll settle into what YOU like best and what works best for YOU  :)
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Barkspud on June 05, 2012, 01:12:58 pm
Thats a good one blackhawk LOL...I here you all on the set and have done some reading on it. Still don't know what tomake of that yet. I do sure appreciate the welcome though...
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Slackbunny on June 05, 2012, 03:11:40 pm
Perhaps the dissolved salt recrystalizes within the structure of the wood fibers providing a form of reinforement. Of course it could have nothing to do with salt. There is a lot more in seawater than just salt. Perhaps there is another dissolved mineral that is flying under our radar. If I lived on the coast I'd be doing some experiments, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: johnston on June 05, 2012, 05:46:27 pm
Well I do know for sure that hickory tastes much better with a little salt. Kinda like tequila.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: UserNameTaken on June 05, 2012, 05:49:53 pm
It's like making sauerkraut.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: JackCrafty on June 05, 2012, 08:31:55 pm
I agree.  Salt curing makes the wood more tasty.  ;D
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Sidewinder on June 06, 2012, 10:52:18 am
Welcome to PA. You will learn much here and the guys are all great. As to the salt water curing, I'm not sure I see any value in it unless you could speed up the curing process. As we all know, with properly cured wood ( no matter your method)  proper design and tiller will bring about great performance.
 As far as crazy old men go, there are plenty old and young ones on here thats for sure, lol.   Danny
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: JW_Halverson on June 06, 2012, 09:58:30 pm
As far as crazy old men go, there are plenty old and young ones on here thats for sure, lol.   Danny

I resemble that remark, Danny!
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: mullet on June 06, 2012, 10:24:40 pm
Welcome to PA. I've heard buffalo urine works also.
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: JW_Halverson on June 06, 2012, 10:29:25 pm
Gee whiz!
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: JackCrafty on June 07, 2012, 03:32:43 am
 :o
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Pappy on June 07, 2012, 06:21:15 am
I wondered when that was going to come out,leave it to Eddie. ;) ;D ;D ;D
   Pappy
Title: Re: Im new and probably going to stir up a hornets nest...
Post by: Sidewinder on June 07, 2012, 10:02:14 am
You were one of the guys I had in mind JW, lol you ole dog.  Your one liners and dry humor is one of things I love about this site. Although, it looks like Eddie hit it out of the park with the stupidity funnel. Thats freaking hilarious.  You guys's ( if thats a word) creativity and sharp if not somewhat twisted minds never cease to bring a smile to my face.  Danny