Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sound maker on May 28, 2012, 09:56:48 pm
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So I got some ceder that has dryed a bit with some rough tillering and I think its still a little green but not alot. I'm just going to work on the bend and leave it be without going for a specific draw lenght or weight. So far I got it so its bending nice with one side stronger then the other and was wonder when I get them bending evenly can I just clean it up and then seal it???
So far I got it so can be draw to about 22 inches and as soon I can get it bending evenly and maybe a bit further I was going to finish it with tru oil or shellac and wax.
and no I don't really know what kind it is but so far it the pieces I have used have been nice and the one that I broke was because I pulled to far. Thanks for any advice you guys can give me. Going to try and get some pics up.
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Howdy, So what's your question? Without knowing the type of wood and dimensions, it's kind of hard to give constructive criticism.
One concern I have is your statement that the wood is still a little green. Working a stave before it's fully dried is a good way to get a bow with excessive set. Now that you have the stave worked to nearly final dimensions, it would be best to set it aside until you know the wood is fully dried. The good news is that the wood will finish drying relatively quickly now that it as been worked down in size.
The finishes you mention are all widely used on bows.
Photos would be nice.
Ron
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Well it broke. I had the pics and was about to put a backing on it but it had a tension break. I think I'm just going to leave ceder wood alone for now since it kepts being a pain in the butt.
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You would be closer to the rest of the "crowd" if you left cedar alone, assuming you mean white cedar. There are good reasons you dont see many bows of cedar, cypress, willow, basswood, pine's and the sorts. Sure one pops up here and there, but few get past the photo opp.
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Sinew backed ERC is an awesome combo. Rawhide works well also. Maybe not for a beginner though.
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What "ceder"? There is no such wood as "ceder".
Were you working with Eastern red cedar? Western red cedar? Lebanon cedar? White cedar? Cigarbox cedar? That matters a lot!
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More than likely from the Puget Sound area - Western Red. Not a great bow wood (everybody says) but I have a couple of branch staves that show some real potential for the right design.
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I had a nice piece a while ago that was great. The only reason why it broke was from me pulling it a little too far. That's stuff fun to work with and smells nice with a great look but I think I'm going to get a pieces thats about 3-4 inches thick rough out the limbs and let it set for 6 months or a year or a while in a hot box and then just back it with burlap most likely before I do anymore work on it. Also I think my problems with the stuff that I used lies with the fact I keep using branches from the tree and it started from one that was 1" 3/4"-2" 1/2" thick and going to 7/8" thick.
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Well after some time and reading decided to look at the ceder that I broke and make it into a short bow in imitation of the west coast bows but maybe flat bowish since I don't really have the width and thickness I think. I was thinking it would be nice and fun to do but the wood got kind of hard to bend and is taking some work to get it to bend. Think I might have to add something to the handle area so its somewhat stiffer since its bending there more then I feel comfortable with (this is the lower limb of the first piece of ceder, and yes its most likely western ceder) but seems to take to it and I am going to back it, most likely with burlap or paper since that's what I have.
The dimensions are 44" long with a 4" handle that's 1 3/8" wide and 7/8" thick with 1/2" fade, with the limbs staying at 1 3/8" wide and tapering 10" from the tips to about 3/4", limbs go to about 6/8" thick for most of the limbs until the last 3 inches where they go to about 7/8" thick. The bow also has about 2 3/8" of deflex.
So should I just keep going and working the limbs down so it bends evenly and after that make the pin nocks or another one from the west coast bows section in the traditional bowyer's bible pg.178? and I should reflex the tips shouldn't I.
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Soundmaker, is the piece you have from a branch or a cedar board. If it's a board, I wouldn't bother but if it's a branch that had sapwood and heartwood, it might be ok. I wouldn't bother with paper for a backing, it won't be enough for cedar. It might be a good one to try some sinew. I've been using dog chew sinew from the pet stores around here. There is a yarn store (they sell weaver's supplies) in the U-district up here in Seattle that sells raw flax fiber and its real cheap ($4 for enough to do 4 or 5 bows that size) that might be an easier and better choice for you. Inexpensive materials to experiment with (and that cedar bow will be an experiment). I think you'll like the flax better than paper or burlap. How's that scotchbroom workin out for you? Have you made anything with it?
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I started to work on it my my knife wasn't sharp enough to really cut it and my surform kind of stopped and I had to do stuff but I will be getting to it its just been wet when I wasn't busy with something. going to try and get to it since they're all around 1" thick so I'm just going to be doing rasp work on them so most likely it going to be awhile until I get it semi done but on the good side at least they should be season all the way through and I'm thinking of just leaving the bark on just sand it down so they don't pop off. if everything works out I should have some shooters for a camp in August that I'm going to.
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It is absolutely crucial you figure out the wood species. Many woods called 'cedar' are softwoods that are NOT bowwoods at all. Actually, the only good one is Eastern Red Cedar. If you are indeed working with Western red cedar, the message is simple: it is not a bowwood and will only disappoint you. Especially with a highly stressed short bow, and you even considering recurving it, you are very likely to be greatly disappointed again. Save yourself all the trouble and get a proper bowwood. Western red cedar, being very soft and weak, is not one of them.
Can you post a clear picture (camera set on "macro"-mode, pic taken outside in bright daylight) for proper wood ID?
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I don't know about western red cedar, and I have never worked with any of the cedars native to our pacific northwest, but there is mention of natives using cedar for sinew-backed bows, and there is a guy in california making some sinew-backed incense cedar that seem to perform quite well. Check out his website called heartwood bows. Under the bows and stats tab, under Miwok bows, he describes in brief his process for incense cedar. Good luck.
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Howdy Folks, I just picked up some incense cedar yesterday. A city crew was trimming some lower limbs in a city park. The workmen said I welcome to all I wan't as long as I waited 'til they quit for the day. I only found one straight piece, but it made my car smell like freshly sharpened pencils all the way home. Which come to think of it is a good way to ID incense cedar. Wooden pencils are made from incense cedar, so most people will recognize the smell. Ron
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Darksoul: I'm don't mean to be mean to you but the native people have made bows with cedar and its possible to make a bow with western ceder, its just more difficult to do and generally they would back it with sinew. Yes I know its not the best wood and yes I know this is a high stress design and yes what I'm planning is hard on "good" wood but if I only do stuff that's is easy, safe, and confine to a set of direction means no growth. I understand what you're saying and I did read up on it and I wanted to make one anyways. So far it HAS NOT disappointed me, the piece is nice and while it came from a broken bow. The bow broke only because I pulled too far. This is a challenge that I picked to see what I can do and to see if I can make something from a wood that is difficult.
As I said I don't mean to be mean. I understand what I'm doing and what problems I'm going to have and I ask others who have more experience then me to give me ideas and tips to help me attain my goal.
Thanks for advice.
CMB: I'll go see the site when I'm able to thanks.
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Sound maker. Challenges are definitely teaching tools. I feel like tillering certain whitewoods, has made me much better at tillering osage, than if I had only tillered osage. From what I have gathered, the natives incorporated a very wide and thin design, sinew-backed, with almost as much sinew as wood to make those short cedar bows fling em far. I am interested in what you learn, as I want to tackle an incense cedar short bow soon. Good luck!
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Sound Maker, I get the impression that you are relatively new to bow making (though perhaps I am wrong). Attempting advanced designs when you are a beginner doesn't, in general, yield more growth than sharpening your skills on more conventional designs. In Dark Soul's defense, I think he was only trying to spare you unnecessary frustration. Good luck with your project - I look forward to seeing the result.
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Sound maker, no offense taken. I know that basically "any" wood CAN make a bow. You 'just' have to design it accordingly. All I'm saying: Western red cedar is very, very low on the bowwood scale. Since I guess that you are quite new to bow building (correct me if I'm wrong), and you have already broken a piece of this cedar, and you are trying out a rather complex design that requires a very good bowwood, I just want to save you the disappointment. There's just too many ifs and buts in your plan to guarantee a succesful outcome. If you're after gaining some experience in wood working, then you can go ahead and continue. But if you want to make a bow that actually works, I think there's a ton of better woods and easier designs. A non bowwood such as Western red cedar requires a design that puts a really low pressure on the limbs. Very wide, flat and long limbs are crucial for those weak woods. Three things you probably can't incorporate in your design.
One of the things that stil bothers me, is that you still don't actually know the wood species. It matters a lot! You really need to figure out what species of wood you have. I know that native people have used various 'cedars' as bowwoods, including Eastern red cedar (not a cedar but a juniper) and incense cedar (not a true cedar either). I don't know if they used Western red cedar, but if they did, I would not be surprised they used a meticulously chosen branch of compression wood. And then there is Spanish cedar, white cedar, Lebanon cedar etc. etc... All with completely different properties of the wood, so all need to be designed differently as well.
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Yes I am still somewhat new to bow making and yes I should be doing designs first that have show good with ok to good wood to get some practice which I have.
CMB: I will post as I get progress but I don't think incense ceder though. I will try to get a pick on Wednesday since I'll be going to where I got it from for you guys to id. By the way I not going to sinew it since I don't really have access to sinew so I'm either going to back it with something like burlap or go a to pet store and get some rawhide. (don't have any plans to get to Seattle for the flax randman though I might be going there sometime in September)
Gordon: Yes I know he was informing me but I just wanted it be clear I know and I do thank his for his advice it just I already know and planned for it and the wood was free so I decide to test out the wood and see how I measure up.
Darksoul: Yes I did break it but that was due to me pulling it too far otherwise it would have work and been fine since I'm not doing the monsters let alone the hunting weight bows other people her make(not yet anyways, haven't getten the ipe cut yet and haven't gotten the bamboo either though the bigger scotishbroom might be 50# if I do this right but most likely not) . and yes I can get the betters wood from around (scotishbroom, juniper, ash,maple, seriveberry, oak, etc etc) and yes I don't really know what kind of ceder it is or if its ceder though I believe it is. I will get a pic posted and I'll do one of the bow. (thing still too stiff but its floor tiller so I'm just going to scrap, sand, scrap, sand, get annoy at my pace and get the rasp out and then work at getting the marks off then scrap, sand, scrap, sand. Did I meantion that this is the lower limb (I think) of the bow I was working on???