Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Fred Arnold on May 11, 2012, 05:38:04 pm
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I just don't have the eyes for this yet and am trying to complete my first. 64" NTN.
Top limb on the right is 1 1/2" longer. Don't want to take any more weight off than I have to as I'm already under what my goal was.
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What does the front profile look like?
Lane
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Fred,
to my old eye (half eye dont ya know) both bends look nice and even through-out their length. All my bows got even length limbs so I'm allways tryin to get them symetrical to each other as well, but in your case the bends look real even, like I said. Maybe pull it a couple inches more from brace and see if the bends are are still even, if so, I guess ya about got it, except for whatever finsih sandin ya want to do, etc.
course that's just one guys opinion
rich
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I keep watching all the beautiful bows being built on here and feel like I'm missing something somewhere. I'll post another pic of the bow drawn further but afraid to take it too far before I get some advice. The top limb looks stronger to my eye than the bottom and I am going to try to even them up by heating and clamping and will try to get some weight back by toasting the belly. Top limb has a slight amount of twist but nothing I'm concerned about at this point.
First pic back and last pic belly unstrung on the floor and then a couple of others.
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Looks pretty good at brace height. Its hard to say how good until we see it drawn back on the tree at least a little bit. Looks like it has pyramid limbs which means it needs to bend pretty even throughout the whole limb.
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Brace is currently 5 1/2" and bow is shown drawn to just less than 10". I don't have my board pegged yet so I jimmyrigged it.
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Right limb is definitely stiffer, i'd loosen up the midlimb a touch. Also, is there a reason you don't have it centered on the tree? Your handle rest and string are both above center on the bow, and that's going to strongly affect how things look.
Oh, and you can leave the right limb a LITTLE stiff and let it be the bottom :)
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In order to make the right limb the bottom I'd have to cut at minimum 1 1/2" from it and then basically start over. When I put the tree together I wanted the pulley rope to pull from above the handle area approximately where my middle draw hand finger and the arrow rest will be located.
If I'm thinking wrong on this I can change the location but that doesn't sound right to me.
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I see a fine tiller, but the limbs arent balanced from what I see. Pull that sucker down to at least 20" and lets look again. Center your handle on the tree. Thats why you lopped off the length on your bottom limb right?
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I left the bottom limb shorter to try and tiller according to Dean Torges in "Hunting The Osage Bow"
If the grip is resting in my palm during draw wouldn't you actually be pulling the string slightly above the grip area? I designed the tree to simulate holding the bow with the string being pulled in the same general area that the arrow rest would be located.
I'm old and tough skinned so throw it at me. Except for what I've read and watched this is all new to me. I posted this in order to get the best advice available so I appreciate the all of the suggestions and probably a little humbling experience that wil come along with it.
Ill give you a photo at 16" before proceeding to 20.
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Looks fine. Go shoot it at 20" a few dozen times and check again. Its all about how it feels in your hand.
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Looks like I ended up getting about an inch of string follow on both limbs. Here it is drawn to 20". I'll check it again later and see if anything changes.
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Fred, I think bows with some reflex or deflex just coming off the fades are the hardest to tiller. You have it in that left limb and it will always make it look non-symmetrical. You're getting good advice, just don't expect your limbs to look identical when you're done. Good luck.
George
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Your tiller looks pretty darn good to me. George is right, bows that come off the handle at different angles are tough to tiller. Im not a big fan of leaving the top limb longer than the bottom. Tillering is hard enough for a beginner and leaving one limb longer than the other just adds to the degree of difficulty. In my opinion its much easier to see the limbs bending properly if they're both the same length. Like PD said though its all about how it feels in your hand. Grab the bow the way you're going to grip it when you shoot and feel for the stronger limb, if one limb is much stronger than the other you will be able to feel it in your hand when you draw the bow.
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yeah my bad, listen the these guys. :D I didn't notice the reflex n such in the unbraced profile, I should know better! Like these others said, see how it feels in your hand and go from there.
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Followed PD's advice but only shot about 20 arrows through it. The bow feels good but is much lighter than I was hoping for and still think the top limb feels a tad stiff compared to the bottom.
I can't say I'm disappointed as shots from 15 yds hit close to where I was looking and for me that's not bad!!!! Being this is my first bow my expectations may have been a bit higher than was reasonable. I let it rest for a while and then checked it again braced it, and then shot a pic @24".
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Looks pretty good to my eyes
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Followed PD's advice but only shot about 20 arrows through it. The bow feels good but is much lighter than I was hoping for and still think the top limb feels a tad stiff compared to the bottom.
Fred, if the top limb feels stiff, turn the bow over and try a few arrows with the top limb on the bottom. I do this with every bow, unless something in the stave forces me to choose limbs early on. I have reversed the orientation of several bows because they shot better upside down. It's also the reason I never cut in a shelf. In fact, right now my trade bow handle is a 1" square because I still haven't chosen a limb orientation. I keep a floppy rest in the drawer that I tape on with electricians tape when I get the bow to where you are. I pull it off and put it on the other side every time, I even reuse the tape most times.
...Being this is my first bow my expectations may have been a bit higher than was reasonable....
You think??? Really Fred, you're tillering looks very good on a very tricky stave to tiller. Choose a limb orientation based on what shoots and feels best, put a finish on it, and shoot the heck out of it while you're building #2. Good work!
George
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The right limb looks just a tad stiffer in the inner third right out of the fades. You could take a few scrapes off there but other than that it looks great. That is great tiller especially for your first bow. As for your bow being undrweight, dont worry about that. Everyone does that in the beginning and I still do it every now and then, i usually end up giving them to some kid that looks like he/she needs a bow. :)
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I want to thank all of you for the advice you've given me. You have all made me feel more
confident and less apprehensive about finishing this project.
Without Pearl Drums little push over the edge I don't know if if I'd of dared shot the bow, that's how insecure and unsure I was feeling at this stage.
George, took your advice and turned it over to shoot. It felt upside down and unbalance with that bottom limb being shorter when shot up top, so I'm going to proceed as originally planned.
And Gus thank you for the PM and the input.
Okie because the bow came in under my desired weight I'm going to take some advice and try toasting the belly to bring it back up. I may give away the 2nd or 3rd but this one has to go on the wall even if only to be brought down when the grand kids visit.
k-hat, I saw the same thing you did with that limb but decided to do the heat treatment and a little form work before I do any more scraping.
It's going to be hard to leave this bow alone until I get a copy of TBB 4 to study but I've got a new band saw on a truck heading this way and at least a dozen staves and billets waiting in the shop that could use some attention.
Thank you all again and I'll keep you posted on any new developement. Keep sending the advice and encouragement because I and other newbies can use it.
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Before you toast that belly consider shortening your top limb 1". That will add 3-4#'s. And/or flip the tips. I attached a pic of a VERY simple jig. You need a 5 gallon bucket to get the half round shape.
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PD, approximately how much gain could the bow get by flipping the tips and what length should the flip be? What I'm asking is with the flip starting at the nock where would you suggest placing the second clamp?
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Just flipping may get you a few pounds. It will tighten the string up at brace and add some zip to your arrow. There is no formula for clamps. Just add one when you need to. Anything will work. Its real simple to do. I would say 8-10" of tip will be ready to bend in 3-4 minutes on high at 6-7" away.
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I wouldnt bother toasting the belly on osage. Toasting works better with whitewoods, I've had mixed results toasting osage. Osage is plenty strong enough in compression without toasting. I would do what PD suggested.
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Thanks PD and Okie. The weight came in at 34#'s at full draw so I'm thinking taking 1" off each end which will still give me 62" NTN and hopefully gain another 5#. At this point I'll be thrilled to get it close to the 40# mark and still have a usable first bow.
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I wouldnt bother toasting the belly on osage. Toasting works better with whitewoods, I've had mixed results toasting osage. Osage is plenty strong enough in compression without toasting. I would do what PD suggested.
I've had mixed results too, but the last time I tried it I got 8lbs of draw weight increase though I didn't need it. I just think it looks cool to give the belly just a hint of a scorch. If I were a couple lbs under my goal I would for sure try it. Just be sure to let it rehydrate after heating it and be careful not to induce any twist.
Fred, the tiller looks great. It's a good first bow right now. Osage should work fine at 62" so I think your plan is good too.
George
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George, I appreciate your's and the others help with this.
I watched the short 8+ minute video clip of Mark St. Louis that someone was kind enough to post here. Because of the heat gun noise running in the background and my questionable hearing, I missed part of what was being relayed.
Were the limbs completely dry before and during the process? And he mentioned applying a resin to rehydrate but I didn't catch the type of resin. It was the procedure just at the end of heating each section.
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Here's a couple shots out back with me aiming down the slope. I have a tendency to throw my elbow high instead of bending from the waist when I do this but you'll get a fairly good look at the angle of the bow.
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That is an excellent tiller. If you enjoyed making the bow just start another. Enjoy your first. Congratulations! Jawge
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Glad to hear from you Jawge. If you had a counter on how many times I've visited your site, you'd have to start charging me an admission fee. ;D
I have 3 sets of matched mulberry, 2 Osage, and 2 hackberry billets, plus 2 red elm, 1 black walnut, 4 elm, 1 red elm staves, and a handfull of saplings on racks in the shop waiting for my attention. I'm so addicted that a new 14" Grizzly is on a truck somewhere between Springfield Missouri and it's final destination. It showed up in Omaha Friday morning and was switched to the new carrier. I'm hoping for early this next week, (like Monday).
This bow was wielded from a stave that I got around 10 years ago. I laid it on a shelf below a basement window and didn't even remove the bark for over 5 years. Other than a few dips and hollows it was near perfect with medium growth rings and very little twist. Now I'm hoping to find another and more just like it or similar.
I'd say I'm hooked!
All of the work on this one was done with drawknife, farriers rasp, a Nelson wood file, and scrapers. I'm hoping the bandsaw can speed up my work and save me some wood for other uses.
I think I may start making my own furniture for the cabin. Since retiring this past November I'm enjoying myself immensely.
But I need to get indoor plumbing installed before another winter. Moved out here 3 years ago this June and the hole below the outhouse is getting full. I don't want to dig another one and have to move it.
I'm thouroughly enjoying this and thank all off you for your help, Fred
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I'd say that's a winner! Congrats on your first Fred!
Shoot a load of arrows through it, then shoot some more, and enjoy each one. In your "downtime" between shootin, start the next, then the next . . . .
Before long you'll amass an arsenal . . . er . . collection like some of these guys been showin around ;D
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I'm glad you are using it, Fred. Congratulations on your retirement too! Jawge
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If you have that much wood waitin to be made into bows leave that one like it is and enjoy it. My first bow didnt look anywhere near that good. Great job and welcome to the addiction. That bandsaw will save you a lot of time and labor.
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fred the bow looks really good to me,, i see nothing wrong with the tiller,,, full draw looks good too.......james
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What's piking? Is that in reference to the grip area? Also since setting this aside for the time being I'm needing some info on another project. This takedown was a bamboo backed osage w/ skins and the bamboo failed on both limbs splitting in the fade area. I purchased a set of backing strips from Jaap at Yumi Bows ( from whom I purchased my raw japanese bamboo shafts).
Being I don't have a proper plane I've coarse sanded them by hand with a block until reaching close dimensions. The edges are getting paper thin as suggested and I'd like to finish this project. Not having a toothing plane would it work to rough up the back of both peices by doing light cross section filing?
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Out of the Frying pan and into the Fire!!! :)
That's Good Stuff!
Dean Torges, on his DVD "Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow" will step you through making and using a Toothing Plane.
This is a Good Watch.
Should take you no time to build a toothing plane with your new Grizzly.
Jealous... Me?
Maybe a little... For a Cabin in the woods!!! :)
I would Not Cut Cross Grain, but rough up With the Grain.
You could use a new hacksaw blade, used like a scraper, to gently rough up your gluing surfaces
-gus
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Gus, here's my cabin in the woods. I purchased the 26 acre tract about 15 years ago when it was cheap according to today's standards. I had been searching 2 years for some river ground within 15 miles of the town I was living in but everything I looked at was either too large or too expensive for my budget.
I wanted a place to retire away from the rat race and found this 35 miles away and within my budget. A spring fed creek winds through the parcel, never freezes, never runs dry.
My sons, David, Jeffrey, and I, with a lot of help from friends during the erection stage, built this from the ground up. We dug and insulated the footings and floor, bent and installed the re-bar, tied pex pipe to the re-bar for a floor heating system (not hooked up yet), poured the concrete, and then put the peices all together.
I moved out here 3 years ago coming June 1 and began finishing off half of the structure for living space and the remainder shop.
I used to call it the farm, now I just tell everyone I have a big back yard.
Not even close to being finished yet but the Best move I ever made.
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Yes Sir!!!
That IS Plenty Fine!
My Dream House, at present, is a Ten Thousand square foot steel building, take in two thousand for living and have eight for shops, garage and my Tequila Aging Facility.
Twenty six acres would be perfect, but I think I'll have to make due with five or ten... :)
-gus
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You're livin my dream, Fred!! :)
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Kenny, it was a long time dream for me also and wished I could have done it earlier in life. Most single men could live like this but it's a lot to ask of any woman and most kids would balk at the idea unless you started them out real early this way. I'm single now for 30 years and my boys have been gone from home now for over 15 years and have families of their own. They love the way I live and the work we've done together to build this place. They are as proud of it as I am and visit as often as time allows but if I would have taken them out of school when I was raising them and moved them out here, they may never have spoken to me again. :laugh:
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Nice piece of property, Fred. Jawge
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Thank you George,
I've temporarily placed this project on hold until the forms for flipping the tips are finished.
I saw an earlier post today by blackpanem and didn't have an appropriate answer to his question about spliiting stave's, so I left him alone and didn't rain on his parade and decided to ask the same question with pics.
This arrived at the post office this morning. I told Lavern that I was looking for a special pair of billets and he hoped that this might work for me. 3 1/2" and 4" x 35".
How would you split it?
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Looks like a great place and congratulations on your bow!
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Well it looks like I might have ruined my first bow. I was trying to flip the tips and either got them too hot or bent them too quickly. Anyway both ends developed cracks in the belly about 5" from the tips and both limbs are now severely twisted. :( Maybe should have left this one alone and went on to the next project.
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Well bow making is just one big learning curve...I think you did a really good job of your 1st bow. Without seeing the forms or exactly what you did then I would guess that you didn't get the wood hot enough. A tip for doing this in the future is to rub some vegtable oil all over the tips before starting to heat the wood. The oil helps the heat penetrate deeper.
If you make a bow that is underweight and already short then shortening it more and flipping the tips are bad ideas.
Both of these techniques increase stress in the limbs so WILL increase string follow (a bad thing)unless your limbs are overbuilt eg too wide and thin as opposed to deep and narrow.
Think of it this way as wood gets thinner it can take more bend. Compare a paper thin shaving and a 4x4...So a wide and thin limb (with the same draw-weight) compared to a narrow and deep limb can be and should be pulled further.
Remember that all we are doing is making a wooden spring. Wood is the same as any other material in that it has a limit to the amount of stress it can take before it losses it's 'springiness'.
A bow should get a little string follow but it needs to be kept to around 1 inch before the wood cells on the bows belly (primarily) loss their ablity to recover quickly enough from the applied stress to give a fast bow.
Those billets look perfect...I would love to have those in my workshop!! You could split them right down the middle but it would be best (least wasteful) to wait until your bandsaw turns up and just cut them.
Your house is my dream also. Enjoy your hardwork!
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Not a long enough heat Fred. Its not ruined either. Those are "stretch" cracks and can be filled with super glue and stay perfectly stable for a long time. Tip flipping forms should be at least 18-25" long so you can be sure the limb stays aligned as you bend it. Yoru close, dont quit now. Heat the twist back out and move along. Dont get discouraged about a tiny set back like this. Your bow is more than long enough to support the flipped tips.
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The bandsaw showed up last Monday and it took a couple days of reading and tinkering to get it tuned properly. So now I have a new toy to play with.
Is there a good set of plans online to copy for the forms for bending and flipping tips?
I did some work on the bow today and also noticed a splinter on the back of the bottom limb. It raised directly below a cluster of 3 real small pin knots about 12" from the tip moving downward right in the middle of the limb. They do not run off the edge. Can it be patched? I did glue it with super glue and cant hardly see it after light sanding. Camera wouldn't focus close enough so can't see it in the picture I took. I braced the bow and it shows up better.