Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Jodocus on April 22, 2012, 05:45:53 am
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Hi everyone
This will be a build-or-break-along. I will work on a close-to-scrap piece of black locust I got today. This is my second bow ever, so I am a bloody noob. No teacher around, either. Therefore I thought I could use help from you all and give you some entertainment and something to laugh at in return, ok?
I’ll go until It is a bow or broken. It will probably not be done quickly, however, since I have a lot of other stuff to do and chicken pox are due in a couple of days for the kids. :P So this might take weeks actually.
I was making a sandbox for the kids yesterday. Sure was a nice day, the wind chasing clouds across me real fast, sun and rain taking turns in a fast pace, there was rainbows all the time.
My neighbour offered me some small stems for the frame when he saw me digging, telling me they’d be lying in the shrubs behind the houses. So I went there with my handsaw, and found three small, yet straight black locust trees. He said he’d cut them last autumn. Nice. Took some for the sandbox, some for me.
I figured since they’d been down for some time already, I’d probably best seal, peel and split them right away. The peeling was real easy, I could basically grab the bark on one side and simply tear it off in one swing. Splitting went well with two of them, with one, the split became more of a tear-out, leaving me with one half too thick and one too thin. Grrr.
Otherwise, it seems to be good wood, as far as I can tell. Those trees had been growing within a dense patch of maybe a dozen BL trees, in a opening torn by the wind couple of years ago. They had raced to the light and thus grown up more than sideways. It is actually the very first wood I see with the grain completely straight, not spiralling the slightest bit. There were thorns on the bark and I now see that they are rooted deeply within the wood, which will make for some pretty bad knots. And there is just enough heartwood to make a bow from it.
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Except for that piece that had split badly. I looked at it and saw it had actually had an exceptional 2009 (red mark in pic). If I’d use that ring, there would actually be enough wood.
Now, yes, I DO have read that I should use heartwood only. But look at that ring! It is nice and fat, isn’t it? And didn’t I read that the back would often overpower the belly with BL? So with a good ring of sapwood like this, things might be in balance, no?
For reasons I do not fully understand, I feel I should not only give that piece a try, but I should even begin with it right away. It was somehow calling for me. “Break ME first!” So be it.
I’ve never dug out a yearring before, first one! I have no drawknive yet, so I used a chisel or simply tore the fibrous wood off. At times, all the wood looked just the same, and I was about getting lost. But when the very thin layer of earlywood emerged, I could see it nicely and clearly.
So now I’m done and the stave is ready to be cut to a bow. I have not yet decided on a design, as I wanted to see how much wood there would be left and what it looks like first. Still don’t know. It is 60 inches long, a bit over 2 wide and 1.6 deep in the thinnest bit. Not as much wood as I’d like, but then, it will be less to cut away.
There is four knots in it, three on the same side, so I could probably evade them wit a narrow design. Also, there is a very nice gradual colour change in the wood I like a lot. And it is “as wide and flat as necessary, but as narrow and deep as possible” as far as I get it, no?
Any suggestions on the bows design and layout?
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I never worked with BL before. Besides, I'm still a novice and you do not want my advice. This should be very interesting. For what it's worth, the staves really look good and straight. Kudos for going to the trouble to post this.
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Black Locust will make a fine bow, I have one Marc St Louis built for me. I think you should chase a ring on the back however just like Osage. Also I've heard the tiller needs to be spot on to keep from collapsing the belly.
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Thanks for posting this thread Jodocus, about using sapwood for bows. I know that most say to remove the sapwood and build your bow with only heartwood and that is good advice but sapwood will make bows and for some folks maybe sapwood is all they have or can get. Learning how to build a bow using sapwood is learning another technique we can add to out stable of bow building knowledge.
Ididn't want to talk about locust specifically because the sapwood on many bow woods will make a viable bow if designed and executed properly. Get out of the box! ;)
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SIR! Your camera, what kind is it? I must know! LOL (I'm plannin to buy a camera soon, :laugh:). Gorgeous picture at the top.
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Will be following along...good luck.
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The camera is a nikon p80. I'm not especially pleased with it though. Good zoomimng but clumsy autofocus. The light was just right that moment, dark clouds and the sun shining in.
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Hey all
I am currently at work and I'll get home pretty late
Nevertheless, I gave many a thought on how to proceed on this one. I hope to get some advice as to what design to choose, but since I haven't, I'll decide myself. After all, I promised you something to laugh at ::) I took another look at the stave this morning and realized I have no room at all for some fluffy design decisions. I'll just make it bend.
And without a foot of unbending handle in the middle >:(.
The stave is narrow and flat already, and also short. but so am I and so is my draw, 26 or 27 inches. This evening, I'll mill off as little as needed to make it look bowish. I'll not be able to avoid these knots either :-\ ...
When I had it in my hands this morning, I also ralized how heavy it is. Will it stand being dried quickly?
druid actually posted two fine bows of similar lenght, giving me some hope.
Can't wait to get off work.
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My goodness....someone get this man a drawknife.....me oh my,chasin rings with a chisel ;D
Id make it a bend in the handle bow...id also seal the back with shellac,then reduce down to a stiff floor tiller,then let it sit in a dry place for a few weeks as its prob not totally dry. Maybe,maybe not,but better safe than sorry. And if black locust isnt dry enough it will fret on you.
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Since I have a large supply of BL, I have been using it exclusively for the past 6-8 months.
My thoughts - for what they are worth -
1 - get rid of the sap wood and chase a ring - just like osage - why take any chances.
2- I am not sure you have BL - the BL I use does not have any spines or thorns like you describe - I think you may have honey locust - and if you do - I can not comment as I have never used it = but I think it is not as good as BL.
3- BL makes a very nice bow - if the belly is kept flat and the fades are somewhat wide (1.75 to 2 inches). Also takes heat well for straightening and use steam to recurve the tips.
4- Take your time and use the gizmo to tiller.
Russ
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Russ, this is 100% black locust (Robinia). I've handled plenty to recognize it immediately.
Jodocus, the sapwood of this wood species does not like quick drying at all. It will quickly start checking when forced to dry too quickly. You can rough it out quickly, so it'll take less time to dry. Get is bending just a little bit; approach a nice floor tiller but don't fully floortiller it yet. Then put it somewhere to dry slowly for a month or two. After that, you can speed dry it and force the last bit of moisture out.
As far as design goes, I would go with a bend in the handle. About 1¾" wide and a flat belly.
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Hi everyone
I had another go at it today. It's progressing more slowly than I expected.
Did I say the kids were going to get sick? They didn't, I did. :laugh. So the day blackhawk wished for me to get a drawknife, a neigbour came by and brought me his. I hadn't even asked him. It's got a dent in it, but it sure is sharp. I Immediately chased another growthring on one of the heartwood pieces, and I must admit it is better than a chisel. Once I had my piece of wood properly fixed somewhere, that is. I'll get me one of my own.
I took ste stave into the house, and it feels pretty dry already, no signs of it cracking anywhere either. After all, it had been felled a couple of months ago. The wood is absolutely gorgeous. the sapwood is almost perfectly white, then comes a yellow and then a brown ring. I like this so much, that I actually decided I will disobey your much appreciated advice >:D and even risk the bow by choosing a narrow, deep layout. Just to have these colours in the bow. I hope I can maintain some of the brown wood in the bows middle. I hope it doesn't brake.
I'm not sure this is a smart thing to do, but I'll try...
Another thing is that I follwed the grain when shaping the bow. It has two slight bends in it, one on each limb (red lines in pic). Since some of you said it would take steaming well, I might steam those out. And I thought, since the wood will be cooked already, I might just as well recurve it a little. Or rather not? Those bends would be exactly in the right places. But I'd also loke to keep it simple.
really it's not for the faint of heart, you have to accept that you may ruin a stave doing this. no guts no glory.
Apart from all that, It does bend a little now. Tomorrow I'll get to grind on it some more.
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I would chase a ring to get as close as you can to the ehartwood. That way the sapwood will be stronger. I would then rough it out. Prep the back and seal it. Then let it dry naturally. Jawge
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hi all,
So I bent it. The lower limb first, 50 minutes of steaming and off into the bending thing (what is the name for it?). It went in like no problem, smooth and easy. 8)
I let it cool, and then did the upper one. I chose the upper limb as upper limb because it was already upside in the tree, by the way. It would have felt a bit odd to make the bow upside down.
I was pretty confident this time, bent it, and TICK! :o
I will go on with what is left, may be just enough...
It is another very nice day, by the way, and if ever that elderberrytree is coming down, I'll make a bow out of it.
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Glad i could help ya out with that drawknife ;)
How thick are those tips?..it looks like you might have enough meat to be ok,and if not you can glue a thin underlay over it after you clean it up. I prob woodve just gone for a simpler design like those mentioned first before dabbling with a recurve.
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Cool stuff. I am always interested in sapwood and whitewood usage. I think we too often overlook woods that are very usable, just because it isn't what is traditionally done or because we do not know how to appropriately use it.
Just this past weekend I took a stick of locust that I cut down last summer and made a little bow for my girls (5 y.o. and 3 y.o.). The have been loving it but only have one arrow... a broken one of mine. I need to make up a few of their own now.
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you got plenty of wood on the splintered one...even to amke a static which is what I would do..next time when trying to get that radical a bend..boil it instead of steam..for every 1/4 inch boil 25 minutes...you got to work fast so have everything in place..gut
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Hi all.
I' am not getting anywhere. I sat at it some today, rasped and scraped and cut some preliminary nocks(?) to put a string on. Compared to the holmegaard bow I did before it feels and looks really fragile already. Like a child's ski of old with warts. But actually it is still quite stiff. I intend to make it about 30 pounds at 26 inches drawn. But when I pull it to 20 pounds, it hardly bends (pic).
I don't want to draw further now, cause I think it is still wet from the steaming. I'll let it sit now for a couple of days before tillering, think about how to do the tips and maybe work some on them. I like this piece of wood. For a moment I was sorry to have curved the tips. That was when it flipped on the tillering tree as I pulled it the first time and it jumped down on my head, ouch :'( It's got three major knots and a couple of smaller ones.
One thing in noticed is it does twist to the side when bent (see cowhorns pic). The bow is not completely straight by itself, it retained some of the bend that I had tried to steam out. Do I correct this by taking wood from the belly on the side to the right in the pic? Or do I have to steam it again?
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Ok, it's been in a sunny, windy place for two days, and I've put it on the tillering tree and pulled it to 35 pounds. It about bends to bracing height. I tried to use a tillering gizmo, but the areas betwen the nots are a bit short for it to really work. I feel they don't bend at all ??? . As far as i can see, the right (upper) limb is still too stiff. Is that right?.
I thought I'd make it 30 pounds, but that was just a number. How can I find a suitable draw-weight for it? I'm a bit undecided how to proceed, mainly because I'm afraid to make a mistake. I'm scared of those knots :-[ , they disrupt the bend a lot.
But I'm quite pleased with the wood. For as thin as is is, it is strong and snappy. :D
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The right limb has zero movement. Look at your limbs only. Not the wall, the lines on the wall or where your tips land. Concentrate on the limbs only. You should get your width taper done prior to tillering.
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Thank you Pearl drums. I had a suspicion that upper limb was still too stiff. By suggesting I get my width tapering done before tillering, do you mean it does not look finished? I left some excess width near the tips because I was not sure wether to steam or cut them straight. I've cut them straight. The twist is better now, but still clearly there. The rest I had planned to leave as wide as it is, unless I get scared to make it any thinner, in wich case I want to make it narrower instead for tillering. Is that a bad idea?
I may need to be told basics, so don't hesitate to criticise ;)
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you can correct the lil bit of twist with dry heat....or leave it...I would dry heat it though.....gut
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Ok--I've said this before, but since you're not listening, I'll repeat it again:
The wood is still wet! STOP BENDING this stave, or you risk serious string follow! Leave it to dry for at least another three weeks!
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Ok, I guess I heard it pretty well this time ;D . And I guess you are right, It's taken some set already. It's just hard to wait if ALL your wood is actually still wet... One of the reasons I started with the sapwood piece, so I could just let the others sit and dry.
But yeah, I'm not really getting around to it for a couple of days now anyway. Though I severly doubt I'll be patient enough to wait for two or three weeks. I have roughed out three more bows already, who are all also waiting to dry. Just gonna do some more then. :P
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Well, if you have plenty of wood, you can deliberately choose to sacrifice one stave to make a bow that you know will take some set. I wouldn't use a prime quality stave for this 'experiment', but if you have plenty of the wood available, then what do you have to lose?
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I rushed through my first few with wet staves and they are all dogs and never leave the rack, sentimental value keeps them from the fire. I understand your enthusiasm totally, but it doesnt make a good bow. Good wood makes good bows. Ask yourself this. Do you want just A bow? Or a GOOD bow? As far as you have this piece reduced it will only take 2-3 weeks to dry down. Take a breath and let her dry some, you will never regret it.
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Don't get me wrong, I totally appreciate the infos, and I also agree with you. No disrespect meant if I have hard time taking you advice. It's like you said, pearl, there is just so much enthusiasm to get going. I REALLY wish someone would have warned me a year ago to set aside some wood to dry.... ::) And since you said you too rushed trough the first few, I'm sure you now what I mean.
Now I don't expect this to become a good bow, mainly because, hey, it's my second attempt. But I do want to make a decent bow for sure, I'll do the best I can. I have enough of that wood, but I do save the better pieces for when I'm more experienced, and the wood is reasonably seasoned.
So, to make it short: Yes, I will allow it to dry for a while. Thank you for convincing stubborn old me ;D
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Well... my real question still sits with this: What will become of a bow made of locust with sapwood? Will it work and be good or will it be junk? I have a lot of small locust and the idea of using it as a whitewood and not chasing down to the heartwood would be cool. I did this for my daughters' bow but this is small and not pulling much weight. A real bow may be different.
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Hey Isaac
I noticed this question spurs interest in the communitiy. But on the other hand, I'm afraid it won't be answered here, since I simply don't feel I can make a bow as good as to say it was the woods fault if it shoots poorly.
However, I will set aside a piece of that sapwood, let it season thoroughly, and when I feel I know what I'm doing, I shall make two bows of the same design, one heart- and one sapwood. That, however, is still some time off...
Till then, someone else might have to work on your question. All I can say at the moment: the transition from sap- to heartwood looks really, really good.
Those 5 to 10 year old locust stems are readily available, since they make excellent and durable fenceposts. So give it a try.
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Hi all,
So it spent about three weeks drying, the last one inside the (not heated) house. I guess it's pretty dry now, or at least much dryer than before. Whenever it was sunny and windy, and it often was, I also put it in a cozy, warm place outside. It lost quite some weight, and retained an inch of set.
I weakened the top limb (right side) somewhat, but it still bends less, as far as I can judge. The problem is that the two knots, which have grown very thickly, keep a lot of lenght from bending. It now pulls 17 inches at 35 pounds, the goal is 26. Looking at the bow, I kinda doubt it can bend that far.
What still worries me is the twist. can I work this out by tillering?
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I wouldn't worry about the twist too much, as long as it is tracking through the handle okay and it isn't trying to twist in your hand. What weight are you shooting for? It looks like it is coming along good.
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Well, I'm nor sure about the weight. I guess 30 pounds is enough. It is a short bow, 44 inches unbraced, minus maybe 8 inches for these knots that won't bend. So I'll be glad to get it back to 26 inches at all without it breaking. Also, it already has taken about 1 1/2 inches of set, and it looks like it will become more.
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excuse me, the lenght is 54 inches. I'm metric, these number look just like numbers to me. 1.38 m.
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Be very careful with that twist. Statics really should line right up or you risk the bow flipping on itself while drawing it.
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The first time I bent this thing it flip-jumped from the tillering tree onto my head. It does not turn anymore now, but the string will not "roll up" onto the recurves If they shear out too far. The problem had been present from the beginning, Iposted a pic where you can see the bends it the stave (again, below). The bow does twist, but even more it shears sideways. The little twist it has is to the same side on both limbs
I managed to better it some today. I tillered mostly by reducing width from the right side (blue arrow in the pics). I tiller so very slowly that sometimes I think i hallucinate some change while in fact everything looks just like the last time I bent it. ??? Back at 21 inches with 34 pounds now. That I could measure.
could not take any pics, the camera battery was empty.
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ALMOST THERE! ;D
24 inches, two more to go. Weight is still at 35 pounds. The bow is 1 1/5 wide and 3/5 deep at the center and 3/5 wide and 2/5 deep at the tips now. it took about 2 inches of set, I expected worse. Thanks Darksoul for the warning about moisture, that was really due. That upper limb is very reluctant to bend around the knots. It is already so thin, though, that I fear it might go really suddenly.
I almost ruined it today when removing width from the lower curve on the WRONG side :o The kids had been soring my nerves all afternoon (you can see one swinging in the background and the remnants of one that seems to have exploded right behind the tillering tree). I had plannes to remove the last bit of twist on the lower limb by moving the nock point towards the stronger side. Now I'll have to find another way, probably more side tillering, it responded well to that. And a bit of twisting to help right up that curve at full draw. It has not responded at all to this, though. I still have 5 pounds to sacrifice to corrections.
But I'll call it a day now, or I'd probably kill it for good.
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That is a nice tiller! Jawge
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Start shooting that bad boy. Final scraping, cleaning up your rasp/tool marks, and final sanding may take some pounds off of your draw weight. You are just about finished and it looks great. I think you are gonna like it! ;)
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Hi all.
I like this piece of wood. For a moment I was sorry to have curved the tips. That was when it flipped on the tillering tree as I pulled it the first time and it jumped down on my head, ouch :'( It's got three major knots and a couple of smaller ones.
The "Bow", or your head? ::) :P Nice build along. I like the first picture also, with ol "Ferdinand" the Bull, in the pasture. I guess it is a bull, could be wrong. There was a pasture down here in Jupiter Fla. that had Charolais (shar-lay) cows, and big ol bull in it, and it had a big sign above a posted sign, that read, "Our bull can make the hundred fifty yards across this pasture in 7.5 seconds, can you?" :o ;D You are coming along quite well so far, looks like you may have a very nice bow. But on the next ones, listen to these guys, go slow, and hold your horses :P It is difficult to wait, but listen to these guys, they have a ton of knowledge, and a ton of experience, with broken screw ups to point back to, and they are trying to keep you from having a kindling pile as big as their first attempts. You have done quite admirably with this bow, considering it is only your second bow or so. I do believe that they can answer any of your questions, and can give you a lot of tips, and solid advice, but all in all despite being rambunctious, it looks good! ;) So you must have the Bowyer's spirit in you. 8) Get yourself a couple of good cabinet scrapers also, for those close grains, and touchy tillerings. ;) And as far as giving us something to laugh at, nope, no one here started out making perfect bows, or having none of their bows break. Thanks for posting this. I get to learn from other peoples mistakes, and tips, and solutions to their problems, and one day, I might attempt making a bow again. 8)
Wayne
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DONE!
8)
It's been a while, is was off working, quarreled some with my wife and then went out some days with the dwarves. It wasn't such a good time, after all, but it's ups and downs, no need to complain. Wayne: That's a cow. Those are highland cattle, not sure wheter there are such cows in the US, they came into use here after milk lost its subsidies and meat became more important. The bull is pretty fearsome, really, he has horns about 30 inches long and nice treadlocks. I am qute afraid of bulls, since as a kid I saw my uncle being pierced and treampled by one. Thank god he survived.
So I'm done with the bow. And I am really pleased with it. I got out almost all of the twist, real proud of that. It bends nicely, and it did not take much more set. The knots I was so afraid of in the beginning I could work in. I was hoping to keep some of the real dark heartwood. This I could not, the bow got thinner than I thought. Only around the knots it is still visible. So l even like them now. They also help the see where to grip the bow and which side is up.
Thank you all for the help and interest, really.
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Oh, I forgot: it pulls exactly 35 pounds at 26 inches. :laugh:
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That was a very nice build. Very nice job! The recurves are great.
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Excellent job! Turned out very nice! So you have Yew trees in Switzerland?
Elm? Oak? Maple? Ok, the bull was a cow. :P Wasn't sure, from the picture, just taking a guess. Yeah, a bull has extreme power, and the neck muscles are extraordinarily strong. :o I am glad that your uncle survived the attack. We have some Highland cattle here in the U.S., I don't know how well established they are, but I know there are some in Montana, down near Townsend. yes, quite a set of horns on them, almost like a Texas longhorn, which we have down here in Florida also. A bull is nothing to take for granted, and they can be quite agile, especially a Brahma bull ! :o Your bow is very nice, and you did an excellent job, despite all the interruptions and family matters. ;) So how does it shoot? Any hand shock? The tiller looks great! So when are you going to make another one? Do you do any flint knapping? Is there a viable source of Flint, or chert, chalchedony, or any other form of knapable rock in Switzer land?
Switzerland is absolutely beautiful. I never got to visit there, but took a train through it on the way, to Berlin, and back to Italy. Absolutely beautiful! What
kind of tree is that, your son is swinging on?
Wayne
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Allright, this bow is realy nice ;)
I thought Black Locust sappwood was not good for making bows, looks like thats just not true!
Lets harvest some sapplings!
What kind of tree is that, your son is swinging on?
Looks like Chestnut to me (Aesculus hippocastaneum).....
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Very nice!!! Thanks for the build :)
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Thanks all, it was a pleasure posting this.
LJB was right about that tree, horse chestnut.
My wife liked this bow a lot and since she could get the string on, too, I gifted it to her. It was also her who found it would look better with no handle. More stickish, she said. To give it a little extra feminine touch and some decorative element I felt was still missing, I fittet turquoise pebbles in the tree knotholes using thin leather strips to fix them while allowing for some compression.
The next bow is already in the making, of course, I got plenty of usable woods around here, but none of it dry.... :P currently, I am at one of the BL heartwood pieces, to get a comparison. It is much more brittle, much harder. Not as pleasant to work with as the sapwood. and lighter, strangely enough. It'll be a simple pyramid this time, my first.
As to the sapwood question, I will not hesitate to use it again. It was a good piece, with almost no earlywood, I think this was important. The first 10 or so years, these trees grow quickly and the rings are fat.
Thanks for watching