Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on April 14, 2012, 11:16:33 am
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Any of you guys ever leave the sapwood on an osage bow? I had a bad split on one stave and if I don't use the sapwood their won't be enough to make a bow. One ring right in the middle of the stave had delaminated from itself for some reason.
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Steve, if you know the sapwood is sound it is OK to leave some sapwood on osage. I've made osage bows with all sapwood and with one or two sapwood rings on the back and they worked fine. The bow will be thicker the more sapwood you leave on it.
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Thanks Pat, this particular osage has rings like yew, about 30 per inch. I chased it down about 3 rings and it looks pretty solid. I will post it when finished. Might still have some moisture in it so I will let it sit for a month or so.
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I just finished one up. On a tip from jawge, I chased off as much sapwood as possible as the closer to he heartwood you get the stronger the wood. I could only chase 1 ring but the bow turned out good.
I backed with cherry bark for some extra insurance. Ended up being 62" ntn, 35# @ 28" and bends through the handle. I probably could have piked it to gain some weight but I wasn't looking for high poundage and it makes a real nice, easy shooting target bow though it is legal for hunting if I so chose.
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I love thin ring ringed osage but usually back it with rawhide for insurance.
Seal the sapwood well. It will check quicker than a heartwood back if not sealed.
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"I love thin ring ringed osage"
LOL, Pat I will trade you 80 thin ringed osage staves for ONE with decent sized rings to chase. Some of the staves I have cut, chasing a ring on em are like peeling a piece of tissue paper into layers... using a knife. :laugh:
Steve, I leave sapwood on osage all the time. I like the looks of it. I like to on longbows and go pretend I have a yew bow. lol Once it is nice and dry it is pretty hard stuff. Kinda reminds me of hophorn beam in the looks department, ya know? I think so anyway, I have only cut one hophorn beam sapling I believe though.
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I just went ahead and tillered out the belly split I got from this stave and it is extremely dense. Checked it with my moisture meter and it seems to be dry enough. I may just go for a heavyweight longbow with the sapwood half. I can't draw them back but I like looking at them on the tree LOL>
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Yes, on osage and black locust, Steve. One of the fastest bows I ever made was from an osage sucker. Like jthompson said get as close to the heartwood as you can. Enjoying retirement ha? :) Jawge
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Retirement! Ha! I might have to give up bow making, everytime I think I am going to start a project I end up making bows all day. By 5 oclock I am exhausted. Not a day goes by I don't fill a trash can with shavings LOL, getting my bow making muscles back in shape after a couple of year lay off.
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John Strunk showed me several beautiful bows he had made with the sapwood on the osage. He seemed of the opinion that people make too much out of the negative qualities of the sapwood and on many staves you couldn't make a bow if you didn't use the sapwood. I don't want to speak for him as there may have been some subtleties or conditions to his statement that I missed but that was definitely the impression I got from that conversation.
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I kind of agree so far Weylin, I have it nearly tillered out, will finish tomorrow. Going for 70# @28" and she seems to be actiiong just like any other osage bow so far.
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,26379.msg354408.html#msg354408
This is alittle bow with sapwood left on
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Thats good to see John, mine is pretty long at 67", sap wood looks about the same as yours maybe 5/16 thick.
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I posted a couple I made with the sapwood on in this thread: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,32020.0.html
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Steve, this is a bow I made last winter for the TG Bow Trade. It was made from 1/2 of a 2" diameter osage pole. All I did was remove the bark and built the bow.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/2inchosagepole001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/2inchosagepole004.jpg)
This pic looks like about a 28" draw
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/2012TGBowTrade2finchosagepole003.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebowdonec2012004.jpg)
I did add a rawhide backing for insurance.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/almostdone.jpg)
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That bow really held its profile Pat, the rings on that look similar to the rings on mine. I iamagine a lot of good straight branches are overlooked that could make nice bows.
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I cut a couple 18, 20 ich osage 20 years ago.Got 31 stves from them one is really thin to close to chase rings. I made unteen bows only useing the first ring. Don't back bows but on the really thin ringer I barnished or left a 1/8" of sap wood on a couple and barnished it also. THIN RINGS STAVES SEAM TO HAVE MORE STRING FOLLOW AND SET THAN BIGGER RING STAVES. I don't see any value of sap wood left on other than makeing the bow bigger.
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well I guess I will open up the proverbial "can" so to speak. IMO set comes from improper tiller. Yes some woods are more prone to it than others, but with that being said. How can the wood undernerath the bark on let's say Elm be better than sapwood on osage. I will take Osage sapwood over any white wood any day. I have seen the properties of correctly cured Osage sapwood and there is nothing wrong with it IMHO
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well I guess I will open up the proverbial "can" so to speak. IMO set comes from improper tiller. Yes some woods are more prone to it than others, but with that being said. How can the wood undernerath the bark on let's say Elm be better than sapwood on osage. I will take Osage sapwood over any white wood any day. I have seen the properties of correctly cured Osage sapwood and there is nothing wrong with it IMHO
Uh oh. There it goes. Prepare for the crap storm. ;)
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I agree with Jon. IMO the sapwood is stronger than many whitewoods, its just not as strong as osage heartwood. I also agree that improper tillering(impatience and overstressing specifiaclly) is probably the main cause of set.
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Good, Pat. Heartwood is stronger than sapwood because it is denser. When I can I remove the sapwood. Besides one of the joys of using osage for me is watching it change colors. The sapwood won't. Leave it on for cosmetic reasons if you want but know that is NOT the best scenario. Jawge
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I do know that the tension properties of the sapwood are pretty good. I have made some pretty hard working limb osage bows with sapwood backs and haven't had a tension failure, and it is plenty good in that respect. The wood closest to the pith does seem to be darker and more dense though, (and I would just assume from knowing that, that it would be stronger in compression), so I would agree with george that it is not the best scenario. But I would still think a sapwood backed heartwood bellied osage bow would be on top of most other bow woods in compression strength? The one thing that would change my thinking is something that has never really been talked about, which is if the back itself takes set, or "stretch" might be a better word, and not stretch back to the former dimensions/length, than could that cause a bow to have set, even though it is obviously less likely or causative than the belly being crushed? Or might it be a factor to consider at least? I don't know but if I had to guess I would definitely think osage heartwood would have a higher resiliency than osage sapwood.
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I mioght start using the sap wood more often. I finished her up this moring at 77#@28" and no visible set in lower limb and less than 1/2" set in upper limb. Projected mass was 26 1/4 and she came in exactly that. I need to clean her up a bit and add a small build up piece for the handle, she should finish at around 70# once cleaned up. The one next to it is the 62" 62# belly piece that I split off the same stave because of a ring delamination. I will post better pics once I clean it up.
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Glad to see that worked out for ya Steve. I've never tried using the sapwood myself but I know another bowyer who leaves the sapwood on most of his osage bows, he does back them with sinew or rawhide though. How thick did the sapwood end up being on that bow?
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Okie it has about 50/50 sapwood to heartwood. Inner limb a bit more heartwood and outer limb a bit more sapwood.