Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive on March 18, 2012, 01:06:27 pm
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Just thought I would post this for those it may apply too. Hope Eddie will chime in i know he shot one a coupl eyears ago and i want to know where he hit it..... but anyways. most of you all know I hunt with 60+ pound bows and my stone points and 500-600 grain arrows. enough I am getting good pass through shots on deer in the last couple years.
giving some info I have found on shooting a turkey.. twice now I have shot a turkey on the shoulder with stone with a 60+ bow at 10 yards!!! and the arrow will not penetrate the wing for me. twice the wing as stopped my screaming arrow cold. not sure how its so capable of stopping one... but twice now Ive drilled one square in the shoulder and... nothin...lol so im sure its possible to sneak one in there and killem, but statistically from my experiences now, Im thinking the wing shot is a bad idea for stone..lol folks are sendin steel through em there with less pounds than im shooting.... and I have tried 1 each, really sharp serrated point and one non serrated point and both small 70 grainers. penetration really shouldnt be an issue....so i dont get it. same set up gave me 3 pass through's on deer in the last 2 years and a hog pass through as well. anyone else ever bounce one off a turkey????? Ive bounced a few in years past off deer shoulders....but thats a deer.....lol not a 15-20# bird..lol guess i have to hold out for a back shot or quartering away hip shot or even head\neck... just tough enough to get a shot off on an open ground bird when your not using pop-up blinds, without having to wait for him to stand still and offer the "perfect shot"
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Ryan, I've never shot a turkey nor have I shot an animal with stone(although I've tryed). A few years ago my wife bought me a bow built by a guy named Vernon Brown, a Peuble Indian from Taos. Vernon used very small stone points for turkey hunting. He said that larger points get hung up on the fearthers but smaller points have an easier time finding their way between them. His reasoning sounded pretty good to me.
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yeah i have been a fan of the smaller points for sure. maybe i need to go a little smaller yet on birds..lol i dunno. just hard to believe 66# at 10 yards wont punch em through....but getting good results on deer consistently took some time and trial and error.
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Maybe a longer but narrower BH would work better. Sort of an Ishi type.
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I think the problem lies in the fact the bird weighs so little in comparison to the energy stored in the arrow it "pushes" the bird rather than slice through. Eddie said his was a coral point. My best guess is a materila razor sharp and not serrated would be needed. Something that requires less energy to push through or in to.
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Ryan;
The bird I shot was with a 60# osage and a coral point. It was about 3/4" at the base and about 2" long. I hit it straight on a little below the base of the neck, dead center. The arrow did not even slow down and flew about 20 yds after passing through. The bird was with five more and they all flew about 20 yards and started walking around like nothing happened, I thought I had missed, and took another shot and clearly missed at 20 yds.
They all started to walk off and then the one I shot stumbled and then fell straight forward. After I cleaned it, it looked like I cut the heart in half like a razor had done it.
By the way, got one Saturday, Opening morning. :)Good Luck!
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yeahi think the light weight of the bird has something to do with it....bout knock it down..lol im shooting pretty small points overall..but i make a few "bird" point....pun intended ofcourse.
congrats on your bird eddie. if woulda been shotgunning it i woulda busted it.....lol i gotta get one stoned this year..lol so you didnt shoot through the wing then right? not many accounts of folks killing turkeys with stone nowadays..lol Im going to keep after it though. smaller flake like point and opt for a "better" shot if possible
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I've hit a couple with steel points (got 1) and get waaaay less penetration on a turkey than I do a deer. I agree with Pearlie, but also the silly things are nearly always moving and usually moving away from you by the time the arrow arrives. It saps some energy. I prefer to shoot them in the pelvis. If I can I take the shot when they're strutting and the head is blocked by the fan. Makes the butt of the bird a good target...fatal too.
They're not a real smart bird. I shot all 4 of my arrows at one up in Nebraska. Couple yelps after a bow shot and he'd come right back. On the last arrow he watched it in flight and then dodged it when it got close. My shooting wasn't too awesome that day. I raised them for several years. My hens got numerous visits from wild toms that never could figure out how to do the deed through the fence...but were sure willing. :)
George
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thanks George, glad to her someone else say they are tougher to penetrate than a deer.... thats the results I am seeing. even with a needle sharp tip i dont get good penetration even on the cartilage pad of a deers shoulder. stone really has a harder time penetrating anything tough. soft materials allow it to really cut and glide, but hard spots slow em down way too much compared to steel. i think i am going to resort back to some of my cane shafts with the really skinny footed hardwood shaft on the end. bout the diameter of a pencil and tip it with a little 3\4 wide x 1 1\4 long chert point and flake thin. ol gobbler will break the crap outa it, but i bet that will slip through...but if i get the chance, i want to hit the base of the neck, or the back or up the bung. these Oceola birds dont strutt nearly as much as those merriams on MT
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My teachers friend had the same thing happen to a turkey and if I remember the advise he was given was to use a thinner points.
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Ryan, I think the bird I shot is still in Shooting and Hunting, I think the last year that is still up. There is a picture with the point on there somewhere. The point wasn't serrated. I do not think you get the penetration on a turkey with a serrated point. I believe the feathers pile up on the jagged edges and the point was also not notched. It was a triangle with the shaft wrapped behind the point with sinew.
Yea, It's the 2007 post, second page.
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thats what i have mounted on my arrows now..just as you described. little flake point, non serrated and no notches, just wrapped a little behind the point. point is small. not as sharp as i normally like them..but no serrations, but still decently sharp. they are way thinner and narrower than the one that didnt go in
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Also, when you look at the large wing bone that attaches to the shoulder, it is one of the biggest and thickest bones they have along with the Primary feathers that are thick and tough. The same reason that when newbies shotgunning their first bird don't recover it when they make a body shot instead of a head shot. I don't know how many birds I've cleaned that had an assortment of different size shot under the skin that wasn't what I was shooting.
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thats what i have mounted on my arrows now..just as you described. little flake point, non serrated and no notches, just wrapped a little behind the point. point is small. not as sharp as i normally like them..but no serrations, but still decently sharp. they are way thinner and narrower than the one that didnt go in
how do you go about making a non serrated stone point??? Every flake you take off with a pressure flaker will create a small serrateion???? How do you do it???? Thanks allot
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well i rekon technically it is still serrated, just very finely. but you gotta almost chip the serrations off to even it out
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Dazv,
You can serrate a point by setting up each serration with a platform and making real serrations, like what Shannon does with his Pinetrees.
Or you can finish your point edge and come back with a very fine, horse shoe nail and go perpendicular to the edge and make little micro-serrations by just flicking the very edge of the blade area.
You can also make a virgin edge by alternating your flaking at an angle from the tip towards the base by flip-flopping the point and not touching it up with any tool. To me, this is the sharpest.
I also believe notching and crisscrossing the sinew to tie it on impedes penetration on anything I'm shooting at. After all, who cares what happens to the point after you hit what you're shooting at? ???
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TWISTED I bow hunted gobblers with selfbows for 21 years so far. I have KILLED 15 ,4 of those were wIth knapped heads. Last year I arrowed 2 GOBBLERS one with a trade point and a 2 year old with a DOG WOOD ARROW and OSIDIN POINT. 2 of my 4 of my knaped point kills were with a bow in the mid 60's another with a 56# and the one last year was with a 53#.
Although I never have had a pass though with a stone head on a gobbler all went to the feathers. I don't shoot wing bone shot's. No matter what you've been told or read it by far not the best arrow shot. All my side shots are right at the top of the drum stick this is where the heart lungs are to don't have to get through those over lapping heavy wing feathers. Plus if you take out his leg or legs he can't get the momention to get off the ground.
Here's another little tip that will help you out when setting up with a self bow or any weapon for that matter. Indains lived by the bow and they did'nt have any special powers. And have you ever seen there bow's and arrows very simple. Indians used this set up on deer as well as gobblers. This go's against all you see on TV or have read.
You have to set up to where the gobbler has to go past you. That means setting up with your back to the comeing gobbller or buck. Were taught to set up where you can see the bird coming. IF YOU CAN SEE HIM HE CAN SEE YOU. Plus after he go's by you his attion is to his front alowing you to draw.
I my granddad only shot gun hunt gobblers and had 312 gobblers in 92 springs. He set up like this 99% of the time. I've killed 31 with a shot gun 2 with a compound 2 with a recurve and 15 with a selfbow. Called up dozens for friends and guided haveing clients take another 60 gobblers. NOT TO SAY LETTING DOZENS AND DOZENS OF JAKES WALK. Not to mention most of the 36 selfbow bucks were taken like this. I'D SAY 95 % of bucks and gobblers WERE TAKEN USEING THIS SET UP.
Give this a try. My grandad roll over in his grave if he knew what I'd just told.
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I agree with crooketarrow.i only shoot at two places, from the beard up and the drummys.everything else is to protected especially the wing the thick feathers plus they are away from the body so it absorbs a lot of tje force before it even hits the bird.its linda like a pitch hits tje glove and the glove hits you, versus the pitch hitting you square in the chest (pass through on a deer) if that makes any sence ???
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yeah i wont be aiming for the wing.
yup crook, Im the same way and often preach it too my friends..especially with deer hunting, i almost always set up where they come in behind me and pass me before i draw, this last one did as well and all was going to plan but then he stopped...which is good, but started turning around. i woulda had a nice quartering shot otherwise
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I dont know if this helps at all???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Eoyd1a90tk
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I have found that turkeys are one of the toughest creatures to take down with stone. Their light weight and feathered armor make it difficult to penetrate these winged warriors.. That being said.. I have had great success and almost instant kills with the facing away shot. Smaller points work well for me, I believe the feathers twist up around the larger points at impact and slow the arrow very quickly. Happy hunting brothers and look forward to some harvest pics from everyone.. Hawk
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yeah....finding the same effects hawk..lol shooting for softer spots next time and using smaller points like i use for deer hunting.
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Dazv, - thanks for the youtube video.. thats one thing i hate about those simulations, they always seem to differ a bit when shooting a live animal...lol like whoever it was that lined up a while bunch of deer shoulder blades and shot through them with a stone point...yeah when stuff is dead, dry and doesnt react to the shot, we get different results. certainly not saying you cant shoot through a turkey wing..... but after bouncing 2 arrows off.....lol same with deer shoulder blades...a guy can shoot through un-protected, seasoned scapula's all day long, put it on a live deer and it aint going through..lol Ive shot several in the shoulder on accident....zero penetration..lol even with a steel trade point, just bends the point over of bounces the stone point out..lol
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... You have to set up to where the gobbler has to go past you. That means setting up with your back to the comeing gobbller or buck. Were taught to set up where you can see the bird coming. IF YOU CAN SEE HIM HE CAN SEE YOU. Plus after he go's by you his attion is to his front alowing you to draw...
Twisted thanks for posting the question, all the great replies have been beyond helpful to more than just you!
crooketarrow - great advice, I'm up in New England and turkey season opens up in a few weeks. Been tryin to figure out how I'm going to take a bird with my selfbow. You just gave me hope :) Funny how u watch somethin on tv or listen to people talk and it somehow works its way in your head like that's the only way it can be done.
I don't knap and only have fieldpoints. Anyone recommend a particular store-bought BH (PM me)? Based on this conversation, sounds like the slimmer and sharper the better!
Also, I've only hunted turkey with a shotgun in Arkansas. Any other general advice out there for taking a long bear with a selfbow in New England???
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Crooketarrow, I have to ask, how old was your grandfather when he started hunting, and how old was he when he passed? At your figures on the 312 gobblers in 92 springs, if he started at birth, that would be 3.39 gobblers a year??????????
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Charlie;
I think the older generation back in those days is the reason the NWTF is in existance, now. ;)
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He was BORN IN 1900 DIED IN 1998. Killed his first gobbler setting between his daddy legs at 7 the first one along at 8 killed his last at 96. THE LAST 2 YEARS HE WHEN HE NEVER EVEN TOOK A GUN JUST LET ME KILL THEM. He never missed a spring very seldom a day. He hunted 11 different states never missing WV,V,NC seasons. I've seen him go to gobbler camp out of state and you might not see him for weeks. He'd much rather call them up and let you or someone else kill it.
He told me that he really did start keeping count and saveing beards and spurrs untill 1931 so he said that # is way higher than 312 he said he did 'nt know but the #'s over 400 gobblers. He told me all through the TEENS though the1920's he killed turkeys just for food. And his best year was 16 , gobblers and hens 11 gobblers. That 24 years of not careing how many he killed. Not that he did'nt become a sportsman he was that and a lot more. He was true naterizest. Never wrote any books could'nt even really read or write.
He told me where he was from in past LURAY VA. THERE WERE NO WARDENS THEN and you just hunted when and where you wanted. The only one came around was the feds looking for there stills. He made shine for 40 years. HE HAD FRIENDS KILL OVER 200 GOBBLERS THAT HE EITHER CALLED ALONG OR WAS IN ON IN SOME WAY. He had a friend on the VA line but in NC that owned a whole mountain that had killed over 500 TURKEYS in his life time and he did it in 62 springs and falls thats liveing turkeys. He said that over 400 were gobblers. But he did it in spring and fall. My grandad only spring killed his gobblers after the 1920's.
I'm told all the time no way.
I know its hard to beleive but my brother has all his beards and spurrs 100's of pic's of camps,friends nad gobblers. The oldest in 1917 with him and his twine brother and his dad with 5 gobblers. 3 Of the gobblers were his. I GREW UP LIVEING BESIDE HIM from my birth to his death.
He love squrril and rabbit hunt and we ran miles of trap lines year after year but the FUNNY THING WAS HE'S NEVER SHOOT A DEER he said where he was from if you saw a deer track a month it was big news. Watched me shoot buck after buck as a kid. He's go deer hunting but never load his gun never even take shells sometimes. Why who knows. But he was a true gobbler hunter,sportsman,nateralest. I know the #'s are hard to beleive BUT THERE TRUE . He was one of those people that had that hue ,attatute, or what eveR it is that just drew you to him at the same time he was a very simple man.
Greatest man I've ever knew.
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Great memories you have, Crooketarrow...has to be nice to have known such a great individual who is a true testament to the many, many cultural changes of our 20th century...I've hunted with Ryan on several occasions myself and I can tell you he knows his business and what you said is spot on with his philosophy on deer as it relates to letting them come on past...helped me get two selfbow mulies for sure. Thanks for sharing your recollections of your grandfather's hunting success.
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Crooketarrow;
It was definatelly a different tera back then. I go to turkey camp every year in the Green Swamp just to talk to one of my friend's Dad. he is in his late 80's and has a hard time walking far but gets a bird most every year.
Anybody that has hunted Osceola turkeys for a lot of years has heard the name of Lovett Williams and this gentleman has taught him a lot. We sat around last Saturday listening to him tell stories of the old days turkey hunting and he has killed over 400 also.
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My grandad had a friend in SOUTHER SC. LIVED AND HAD A GOBBLER CAMP AT A PLACE CALLED DARK CORNNER. As a kid growing up I can't remember him missing camp there well into the late 80's. He said he met MR LOVETT he called him in 1970 I think.
DAX your right now you'd go to jail if you killed enough turkeys to help feed your family. He and some friends started abiding by hunting laws by 1940's. He said he knew people had to start abiding by the law just because of turkey populations going down in this hunting areas. Even thought there was only a couple hard core gobbler hunters in the states he hunted. Nothing like now.
By the time I was born in 61 he was a true sportsmen exspecially to the turkeys. I've never since
then came across anyone that knew so much about everything agian exspecially turkeys.
DAX thank you for your kind words.
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Hey Ryan,
Sorry to hear about your bad luck with stone points and gobblers. I've only killed on turkey with a stone point so I'm certainly no expert, but I do agree that a shoulder shot with a stone point is no good. My good friend Thad Beckum shot a gobbler in the shoulder with his 58-lb osage D- bow and a cane arrow tipped with a flint point and just like you that shoulder bone stopped that arrow like a cement wall and snapped the point just in front of the notches. He gets pass throughs on deer with that same set-up. That shot was actually on an episode of Turkey Call, the tv show for the National Wild Turkey Federation.
I think that shoulder bone is just bad news for us primitive guys. When I shot my gobbler several years ago I hit him just below the wing and just above the drumstick. Arrow was tipped with a small side-notched black flint point that was 5/8" wide. It went through the soft tissue and slammed into the pelvis on the other side, snapping the point in half. The turkey jumped up at the moment of impact and the foreshaft immediately came out. That gobbler only ran about 30-40 feet before collapsing in the grass. I just missed the lungs but that stone point did a hell of a lot of damage and the resulting hemorrhage killed that turkey within seconds. Stone points are absolutely lethal on a turkey, but you have to avoid that wing bone. I never did find the foreshaft....all i found was the forward 1/3 tip portion of the point still inside the gobbler's chest when I gutted him. Those turkey bones are tough and I was surprised at how much damage my stone point suffered from just hitting a "bird".
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It's not so much the bone as it is that turkeys are light weight and not a solid as a deer. I that bird weighted 100 pounds you'd cut that little wing bone into. So I think mostly there weight just gives with the shot and takes momentom of the shot away. PLUS THOSE OVER LAPPING WING FEATHERS ARE LIKE ARMOR.
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I read something some where or saw something somewhere that the stone points cause more hemoraging damage than a similar knife type broad head. Pass through may not be as easy (I forget). I'm looking foreward to trying to take a goose this September.
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I live in the easern pandle of WV only 10 mins from MD. and a hour or so from the eastern shore. Me and a friend went down there with our bows to a guide that specialized in bows for geese.
I took 4 dozzen arrows with broad head. My friend did the same. He used a old farm house for a lodge. There was another party of 7 there. The laughed because I only broth 4 dozzen arrows. They each had 2 ,3 or even 4 ,5 gallon buckets of arrows. They all shot recurves and long bows.
We were set up 300 yards for the others in a corn field over looking a swamp. We had decoys in the field and on the water.
My first arrow at the first goose broth him down. The guide took my pic and everything. Said we were the first to hunt with him with self bows. It was 1993. I thought this is'nt so hard. Hour later I was out of arrows with out harming another feather. We had 100's of geese lock there wings and glid in. My friend never got a hit either.
The next year I took a few more arrows and we got 6 between 4 of us. I got one of these.
So unless you really a good shot or shooting them on the ground. Take LOTS OF ARROWS.