Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: vinemaplebows on March 01, 2012, 12:09:35 am
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I wanted to bring up a discussion on yew wood, the prices, the availabilty, and the reality of being able to cut the wood that is described in the in some of the past threads in the trade section. First, the availabilty....cutting the quality of yew MOST people have come to except as bow worthy wood is VERY DIFFICULT. You must for the most part here in wa. state get a permit from the state to cut.....they don't give these out anytime you want them, and in some districts not at all!! Yew of the quality that most want grows high in the cascade mountain range....or on the high mountains of the coastal mountain range, none of which is "generally" on private land. You can find lots of low, to mid-elevation wood, but not much in the way of high elevation. I have a good amount of yew.....BUT I rarely sell, or trade yew because of peoples unrealistic wants. I can not approach a land owner on a farm to get yew (which I have read is the case with osage) It is NOT there!!! So, osage holders...we are not comparing apples to apples when it comes to availability of each species. How many osage cutters have to get a permit through a goverment agency???? Is it hard to get Osage?? I'll bet it is at times...but not like yew. I am speaking from a WA. state prospective, have no idea about oregon.
I can not give a direct link to Dave Roberts website, but if you search you will find his site, and the quality most look for. (this is a example NOT an endorsement, I would prefer to use a sponser from here if they have pics))I know the man, and even cut wood for him for a few yrs (not yew) I could never understand how he got SO MANY premium staves, and they are nice for the most part. I question where, and how he gets them.....But I have never asked, and he never told me. I know the state would not give him the amount of permits to match the hundreds, and hundreds of staves he sold.....But he MAY have a very legitimate source. (ie. logging company?)
Last, yew is yew, it is all good, BUT not all will make a warbow.
(moderators)
Would like to apologize for the posting of the link.....Believe ME I was not endorsing his web-site. It is difficult to search "yew stave" and not have a for profit site....it was meant to be a detailed description because of the video links nothing more. Any pics from advertisors are welcome....
Brian
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Brian my apologies. I should have just removed the link. My bad. Great info on yew staves.
Cipriano
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Yah well I would use your precious Yew wood to keep my shop warm while I was working on my osage bows Brian! Its is interesting to know that you need permits to harvest, that would only invite illeagel cutting in my opinion. I guess I am spoiled. I have no osage around me, but I can cut any whitewood anytime.
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Pearl,
Yah, bet 50% or more of yew is poached yew.....in stave form. There are logging operations that if you sweet talk them with a few cases of beer they will save it for you....I have done this more than once. technically you need permits to even cut vine maple, Cascara, or any of the woods in this state....unless on private land. Ironically Most of the bow wood here is considered trash wood, and has No commercial value at all. Cascara, and yew would be the exceptions. (medical purposes)
Brian
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Last year I hunted Turkeys in Idaho, east of Lewiston off the clearwater river. While there I saw a massive amount of clearcuts with mountains of Yew all dried up and worthless for bow making (it had been down to long and all twisted and checked). The Timber there has some kind of blight that renders it useless for lumber. They are cutting it down chipping it up and putting it on boats to China. When I was there I tried very hard to find a couple of good logs but no go. I may go again this spring and see if a permit is possible as I did see some live trees. This is not high elevation stuff but still Yew???
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Check the logs, and see if you can lumberize them for backed bows.... ;)
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I brought three of them home and could not mill any of them!! They were cracked. twisted and just in bad shape. I have a friend who turns old redwood fence posts into stuff and gave them to him. The crack and stuff just add character to his art work.
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Vinemaple, what are they using cascara for? Seems to be a pretty rare tree, at least around here, so I've never bothered to cut any of it anyway. I like trees that grow like weeds: vine maple, osoberry, ocean spray... I can take the nice branches, leave the rest & not feel guilty about it.
I don't think I'll ever get around to trying yew.
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Very interested in the permit, and what they allow you to cut....if they do. The point of this thread is to show how difficult it is to cut yew. I can find osage on the net any day....not so much for yew. Ebay just about every day has osage for sale....why not yew?? Again, the quality people expect. Although $200 is rediculious for a yew stave, when you look at availability it would not seem unfair???? Supply & demand just not enough supply.
Brian
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Cascara is used in laxatives (Cascara sagrada) if I remember right. Sure you know a Cascara tree if you seen one??? Cascara is very prolific, especially around wetter areas...but not totally necessary. One of the first self-seeding trees in clearcuts on the coast is Cascara.....depends on where you live. Don't feel guilty cutting them they are not rare! :laugh:
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Little black berries that taste a little coffee-like. Pretty sure I've got the right tree. They may be prolific in other areas, but I've only seen a handful around here. Maybe the next time I'm feeling a little plugged up, I'll go looking for the cascara trees.
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Use the bark....and find a toilet.... :laugh:
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Use the bark....and find a toilet.... :laugh:
FAST!! :P
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Do you guys have personal experience with cascara bark? :)
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Yep,
I have cut hundreds of staves, and one day I forgot to wash my hands after many hours of peeling the bark off out in the woods....ate a sandwich, and about a hour later I was unhappily married to a tree...
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Hope you didn't wipe with the leaves from the cascara, hehehe.
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this is a really good topic and im glad you posted it. i live in oregon and finding yew isnt very hard if you know where to look. like you said towards the cascades, at higher elevations. the closest yew forest to me is in Vernonia and is in a wildlife park. one of the trees growing close to the road fell down and as they where cutting it up i managed to get a couple pieces from the road workers and thats the beginning part of my first bow :) sadly i have poached yew, yes i know shame on me. i took a piece of the side. i was maybe 14 yrs old i didnt know any better. but last time i checked that tree is still there.
i purchase whole logs of yew for $50 per 6' from a man who makes furniture. and he gets it from a man in Roseburg who cuts it, pressure washes off the bark for the cancer research center, and throws the logs in a pile to rot. they even make vitamins from the needles. its sad. me and my grandfather have been planting yews every now and then since i was a kid ..... good fun.
heres a story for your guys. i went to buy some yew and one of the logs had a huge scare on the side. about 50"ish long. whether or not some native took it for a stave or something natural happened to it is a mystery. cutting that was wrong.
these trees and there bow making qualities are amazing :D
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Bryce,
Interesting...if you didn't know your source, how hard would it be to cut it????
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I got my yew in Western Washington on a permit 20 limbs for 20 dollars I asked about taking whole trees and she said she could write me a permit but it would be a bit more per tree I believe she said like $5 a tree. There is also another member here I know who got a permit for oregon near where he lives and I think it was like 20 dollars for 14 trees or something crazy like that. Some areas of both Washington and Oregon have ALLOT of Yew so I think depending on where you go will make a difference in what they will allow you to take for what price.
Josh
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Definitely not trying to preach here, but yew is rare and it grows slow, and its also important to conserve it.
gr
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Thats interesting....In Enumclaw, the forest service told me they would have to do a enviromental impact study...I thought WFT you guys clear cut huge areas, and they don't carefully not mow down species they don't use.
Yrs ago another member, and I got a permit to collect so certain amount, it wasn't much....he wanted ius to collect dead trees.....ah, ya, they were soon dead. :laugh:
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Bryce,
Interesting...if you didn't know your source, how hard would it be to cut it????
what do you mean?
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Bryce,
You said you buy from someone else, have you looked into what it would cost to cut your own in the forest???
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It is difficult to get yew. I have harvested yew out of the Willamette national forest on a personal use special forest products permit. $20 for up to 14 staves I believe, but the price is not the limiting factor. If anybody wants to buy a permit from me to hunt unicorn...I can set you up for 20 bucks.
With the particular permitting office I have dealt with, you have to identify a particular locality that you are interested in and then they will sign off on it, or tell you to keep looking. I have been in places thick with yew and spent all day looking for one tree worth cutting. The good stuff is down in deep dark drainages where surrounding old growth is intact. The places where it was too steep to cut timber. The roads are always above these steep drainages and it is a lot of work to get a good stave or two out of there. The stuff on mild grades and flats is always twisted, wide grain, and full of pin knots. Getting in good with a logging operation is probably the way to go, but I haven't had any luck there yet.
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I agree with what Vinemaplebows is saying. Over the years I have interacted with many people who don't understand the "average" price of yew. I have often tried to explain, that to do it legal you have to first spend a fair amount of time in the mountains, to find something suitable. It DOES not grow abundance. You will find a tree, here and there in a draw, often close to water. And even if you find an area that has several here and there, you still have to find one that is semi straight and not just a cluster of gnarly branches, as most are. The tree has to be at least 100 yards from a stream. Most are right next to the stream. Then when you find a suitable tree you need to mark the GPS location and head to the Forest service with the info. Often an hour drive or more back to town. If lucky you will find someone that is thankfull that you are doing things legally and they will let you buy a permit. Often you will get someone who thinks their calling in life, is to protect every tree alive, and they will try to tell you that you can't buy a permit. ( A lie) At this point you have to ask for their supervisor, and go over their head to be able to exercise your "legal right" to buy a permit. Someties it requires having two or three people repremanded. " Seem exaggerated" It's not! been there multiple times.
At this point you have now successfully obtained your permit. You fill the truck with gas, again, and head back out to climb over several, "often very steep ridges" to try to find your target tree. You take a minute to catch your breath while feeling like your going to have a heart attack, before you cut your tree. You harvest as much as entirely possible from the tree. Then as required spread around the remains to blend into the forest. You then make the two or three trips over two or three finger ridges to get them back to the truck. As you load the last limb in the truck, you hear the words "STOP RIGHT THERE" you turn around to see a rookie Forest service employee who has already called for backup, to assist him, with what he is sure is a thieving no good wood poacher. True story! As I tried to convince him that I knew what I was doing and was legal he insisted on arguing with me, and proceeded to tell me that they don't issue permits to cut yew and vine maple. I convinced him that if he would just let me get the permits out of the truck, he would be able to see for himself. It was about that time that several other Forest service trucks showed up. I did have a nice talk with his superiors about the whole irritating incident.
Now after you get threw showing all your paper work and get your staves home. You have a whole new out look on the two or three workable stave that you have spent two full days and 100 dollars of gas to obtain. And when you decide you are willing to part with a stave it can be upsetting if someone treats you like your ripping them off. I don't cut yew or any staves for money and try to help out where and when I can. It is very disheartening when you hear so much talk about "The Price of Yew" as if people are getting rich or gouging people. I know of several of the people mentioned but have never had any dealings with them and will try not to judge them as I know what is often required of the process. I have often looked at the prices and cringed yet I know the work involved.
The last permits that I bought I spent $40.00 and ended up in back surgery and never got to cut a tree. What I am saying and what I believe Vinemaplebows is saying is that it is a whole different world then some are used to and hard to understand unless you have walked it out.
To find a good yew tree on flat or even semi flat and easy to get to ground is very rare.
When I first read this I was reluctant to respond and I hope and pray this will not offend any. It is not a pump for yew prices. I don't like them any more then anyone Else. I do however understand the process and can understand peoples frustration on both sides of the situation
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Keenan,
That was well written, and VERY accurate. The point of dealing with state agencies, and the crap that goes with it, makes it ALMOST not worth it. I really was trying to let guys back east know what we are up against. I sure wish I could go to a farm(private property) and cut my wood vs. permits.....and tree cops. ;D
So Keenan ready for a poaching trip???? :laugh:
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Thanks for the inside story on Yew Keenan...heck, after reading what goes into getting a stave I'd be crappin me britches the whole time I was working on it!!!
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;D :o I'm watching the snow depths right now trying to figure out when to try to get some more permits. I am going to talk with the guy that sold me the last batch and show him that they were never used. Hopefully he will reissue but I doubt it. I am fairly sure the trees will still be there as they were fairly remote.
Another thing to mention is that yew is extremely slow growing at higher elevations above 3000 ft. An eight inch tree can be 150-200 years old and often only one side will be free of knots. If they do have a clear bottom it is often only 5- 6ft up then it will bush out and be a cluster of branches.
Lee, it is an ordeal at times!
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Keenan,
How many times will they issue a permits there??? I am not even sure here.
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I'm hoping to do some more yew hunting this spring and summer. Last time I went I brought my bow and a couple judo tips and just roamed around stump shooting while I looked. I only found one scraggly yew tree but at least I had a good time, made me feel better about the gas $ anyway. Glad I'm not in this bowmaking to try to make money.
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Yeah Keenan and Vineman, It really makes you sick when you have to deal with all that bureaucracy and then you drive down the road and see all the clearcuts and slash piles the logging companies make with impunity. Most of the stuff I've gotten hasn't been choice staves but character branches and stuff because it's easier to get out of the woods under cover (I've never cut down a whole tree). Gotten some pieces along a river where the bank was lined with yew and trees get toppled where the bank washes away after winter run off. I've even gotten some nice pieces in a Seattle park that has many yew trees (I know where every one is >:D) and the park dept cut one down that was leaning over a trail (perfectly sound and was in no danger of falling) and threw the pieces into the ravine below to rot. I asked a worker there if I could have some of it and they said take what you want (I've gotten more wood of all types by following those guys around). Got some nice billets and a trunk section to split more billets out of. Long story short, I've gotten enough yew to satisfy my yew yearnings and haven't paid a dime for it. Come to think of it, I've never paid for any of my bow wood and I have more than enough of all kinds to keep me busy for a long time. I guess that comes from living in a bow wood rich environment. And one of my favorites is still vine maple.
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all i can say keenan is amen, good stuff. that why i buy my Yew now. not $120 for a stave, but still. because i dont enjoy spending an entire day looking for a stave worthy tree, and end up finding beautiful trees but all are twisted. now dont get me wrong i love wandering the mountains shooting stumps and spying on elk ;D
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Bryce is your supplyer local? I may have to have you hook me up with this guy if your willing. Most of the stuff I have got has been branches and some smaller tree's and nothing I would write home about.
Josh
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wow,i am sorry they put you guys through all this.i have a new respect for you west coast yew bowyers.i never knew.thanks for this post.Keenan i sent you a pm.
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Steve, No apology necessary. I love yew and even with all the hassle it is worth the challenges. I have learned to scout while out in the woods hunting and hiking and once you are in the Forest service computer system it is a little easier to get around the red tape. I have several good friends that work for the Forest service and though they aren't in the departments that would help me they do understand the frustrations. And I also understand the necessity of conservation and management! Balance is the key
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To find a good yew tree on flat or even semi flat and easy to get to ground is very rare.
That's because ol' Earl Ullrich got it all back in the 20 and 30s, spending all summer traveling the high cascades with mule and wagon. Or so I have been told.
If you want to see some nice yew check out Ted Fry's stock in this video: http://vimeo.com/34446295
BTW, there is plenty of yew out there...if you want to make the kind of bows the local indians made from yew...50" and under. Now, ELB...start looking, keep looking, keep looking, now just give up and buy one for $200.
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Good thread. Had no idea it was that big of a deal to find and cut decent yew. Im glad im surrounded by osage. Ive never had the chance to work with yew but i hope to someday.
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CMB why buy one for 200 when you could buy one for 300 :o
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Good thread. Had no idea it was that big of a deal to find and cut decent yew. Im glad im surrounded by osage. Ive never had the chance to work with yew but i hope to someday.
ive never worked with osage.
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I love working with yew, but getting my hands on the stuff is a real hassle. I've tried a few times to get a permit but each time the person at the front desk looked me over and then said the person who could write me a permit is out and I should try another day. Most of the yew that I've managed to aquire has either been gifted to me (thanks Keenan!) or I've cut on some property that a friend leases from the forest service. Keenan and Brian correctly note that yew is not abundant. As for the prime stuff that will make a war bow - well good luck finding a lot of that.
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Yeah, the forest service folk can be a lot of fun to deal with. I had a hell of a time getting a permit for vine maple last year. The first couple of people that I spoke to didn't think that they did permits for forest products except for berries and what not, which is weird because they actually have prices listed on their website. Then they ran me around in circles talking to their superiors and finally made me drive out to a remote ranger station to get the permit. 4 hour drive.
They'll make a law-breaker out of me yet. And for vine maple!
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I am glad you guys in Yew country have started this thread. I have had my ups and downs when it comes to getting a Yew stave. More on the down side than up. Finally made a trade with a fellow on here and got a couple of good sticks. As far as all gas and trucks and so on that is needed to harvest Yew you need also to harvest Osage or any other type of bow wood. You guys talk about having to get permits to harvest Yew is any of that land out there privately owned? Or is all the Yew on public land. It is just to bad more bowyers can't get there hands on some nice Yew. I am blessed that I live in Osage country and can find adequate amounts of Osage for my bow making disease but it is getting harder and harder to find here also. It is being cut and bulldozed out and used for fence post. And not replanted. The day you can get a good piece of Osage for 50.00 dollars will come to an end also I am afraid. Dean
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Dean, there is hardly any yew on private land as most of those lands were logged years ago.
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Do you have to have a permit if you own the land. I ask this because through the late 80's to mid 90's. I made 11 yew bows. I got my staves for a man in WA. Unfortanly he dieded I talked with him a good bit he sold alots of staves he said and he never said anything about ever getting a permit. I hav'nt made a YEW BOW since 99. But now I need a stave to build someone a bow now so if anyone has or knows anyone EMAIL OR PM me. I have plenty of OSAGE. Or the M word but would rather trade.
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how about the pacific yew that grows in idaho and montana?
was it harvested for taxol to the extent it was in oregon/wash?
have a brother in missoula who, with his son and son-n-law,
makes regular trips to the state forests for firewood.
a permit is, of course, required there also.
has anyone here cut, worked with or have experience with yew from idaho or montana?
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What really irritates a guy is to see huge areas logged off that had yew trees that were run over by bulldozers, yet you couldn't touch them..... :(
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It's easier in the UK 'cos it's a smaller country so there's no so much woodland to search ;).
Down South where I get some of mine there are some small patches of ancient Yew woods but they are all gnarled and twisted like something out of a scarey Disney cartoon... and this old witch there keeps offering you apples ::).
But seriously, there's one nice patch of woodland where if you stand by one Yew tree you can see 4 more, but you can walk all morning and still not find a decent straight stave >:(.
I've not been too lucky with the stuff that's finished seasoning this year and I don't have much cut for next, probably only enough for a couple of bows.
Del
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CMB why buy one for 200 when you could buy one for 300 :o
I prefer a little twist, some checking and a handful of pin knots in mine ::)
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I've been planting yew for years on my own private land. So when your teaching your grandchildren to make bows come on over to NW Oregon and take your pick. For free :)
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Dean, I am glad those staves are going to work for you. I still look at those osage monster staves you traded me on a daily basis, they are peacefully waiting their turn. As for the gas. Everybody, or most everybody has to drive somewhere to get their wood, but I end up driving 300+ miles at the end of the day to get my yew, and I live in yew country.
And to my earlier post saying that the permit isn't the limiting factor. I feel like I have been fortunate with my experiences getting a permit, and that is probably because I used to work for the forest service, and I don't hesitate to name drop when I am talking to the special forest products agent. The point I wanted to make, is that yew does not grow straight, and free of limbs, and those few that do were cut down a long time ago. Basically, getting a permit doesn't insure you come home with good staves.
Bryce, I am printing your post out and tucking it away in my sons sock drawer. ;) That is a great thing you are doing.
One thing I noticed in going after yew is that in areas that have been thinned, or have adjacent clearcuts, the yew seams to be more prone to rot. These yew also have dead moss or no moss on them, whereas yew in dark corners has lush healthy moss nearly covering it. I wonder if yew is somewhat intolerant to increased light levels, possibly the moss that grows on it is beneficial, but can't handle the light. ? Anyone else notice such things.
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Bryce, I am printing your post out and tucking it away in my sons sock drawer. ;) That is a great thing you are doing.
my pleasure.
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Where are you getting seedlings???
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Where are you getting seedlings???
i gather seeds. germinate them which takes a couple years, but i cheat with a rooting hormone.
or i just go buy little saplings there like $2. there having a huge sale on the 10th and im gonna get a bunch and fill an empty 2 acre plot at the in-laws house. should be fun :D
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What rooting hormone??? "DIP AND GROW" used in cuttings??? How is that helpful???I have read you can take cutting from them, but don't know the conditions they like to form roots??? Where is this sale??? Mail order???
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yep dip n grow. you can use cuttings or seeds. cuttings is easy all the instructions for that is on the box and works really well 90% of the cuttings will sprout roots. but you cant take a cutting from a shaded tree then plant it in a sunny spot it will have a hard time getting started. with the seeds sick em in the frig for a few months. then stick the seed in the rooting hormone let them soak it up. or just water them with the diluted hormone ONCE. throw em in your soil cubes in a warm container and sometime it takes a few weeks but they'll sprout. i usually go overboard with the seeds if you start 10 maybe 6 will sprout. if your lucky.
the sale is in St. Helens in the Lawrence Oil parking lot just off HWY 30. march 10th starts at 8am the line starts early i usually get there around 7am. from what i understand there only gonna have a thousand pacific yew saplings there. so there gonna go quick.
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Are you rooting in trays or pots??? Wrapping plastic to make a humidity tent??? Is there a better time of yr to take cuts (spring maybe?) The box if I remember right recomends 70 degree temps, you rooting inside??? This is kinda cool, got osage in my yard as well.
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there trays with like little spongy cubes in them. yeah you can use plastic wrap.
best time is right when you see the daisy bulbs sprouting or just before....mid February
yep there sitting im my basement waiting to sprout.
OSAGE?! IN YOUR YARD? IN WESTERN WASHINGTON?!?!?!!?!?! your pullin my leg.....
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An acquaintance of mine grows osage from seed in his yard in western Oregon. He says it only takes about 5 years to get a tree big enough to make decent bows out of.
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Yep....grows good..(osage) Not kinding at all. Seems like Weylin can confirm west coast growing....osage that is! 8)
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I was emailing with Jim Fetrow about getting a permit in Wa state and he said you can do it but said "it is about as hard as asking to watch the Pope bath" ;D
Then like how others have mentioned the hard work of finding the good ones and carrying it back to your truck makes you not want to sell the stuff to others.
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Yep....grows good..(osage) Not kinding at all. Seems like Weylin can confirm west coast growing....osage that is! 8)
I never would of thunk it....hmm someone wanna send me some seeds or clippings?
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I would trade you, but these seeds are a few yrs old... :-\
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John Strunk made a beautiful bow from a piece of oregon osage. He mentioned several places where it grows in western oregon. I have a lead on a hedgerow near Rickreal...will have to make it down there soon. I am sure I could get some osage seeds from it in summer....seeds that know western oregon 8)
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We might need to switch to a plant forum lol